ILoveReading

In the space of one end scene and one episode they completely destroyed the one aspect of this season that I was enjoying, which was Dean's character growth about standing up for himself. Good thing Mary set him straight last week. Can I borrow that rusty spork? I'm not even sure we'll get an I told you so for Dean. Dabb seems to have drunk as much Koolaide as Mary and Sam have. I couldn't enjoy Dean/Crowley because I knew they were just a place holder for Dean so Sam could do everything again. I admire you if you can rewatch this. I already deleted it off my DVR.

He didn't recite the words afterward.

Perez is 0 for 3. I called it last week and in the spoiler thread. Dean wonders in the woods while Sam get to do everything. Not only that but of course he does it without glasses. Once again another ep Dean wasn't needed for. That opening scene was terrible. Dean can hack computers and he's kind of a neat freak. But apparenty he;s perfectly okay being covered in blood. I didn't find it funny. He caved way to fast. But who didn't see Dean rolling over and playing good little solider. He didn't even seem all that upset that Sam lied to him. It does really look like Sam has drunk the koolaide. The scene with Crowley was about the only good thing and Crowley beating up Lucifer. But its the only Boring. Remember when demons used to be scary, Now they are just dumb. The girl was way to calm and accepting to be believable. At least Ellie freaked out.

What is the the writers problem with Dean this season. This is the 4th time this season Dean is written out in the third act and the meat of the action

Sounds like we're going to get more on Ketch. I wonder if this might be what episode 17 is about

Agree. It wont happen but Id love to see Dean actually say this to Mary. The problem is that the relationship is so one sides. Dean's the one putting in all the effort to make it work. He's the one who helped Mary adjust, he gave her space when she asked, he tried to keep in touch and include her and came when she asked. (A favor she did not return. ) Mary shows up with beer. I don't expect Dean to freeze Mary out, but what I would like to see is Dean stop making effort. Be the one to answer if she calls but let her call first, let her send the game request. Be the guy who just shows up with the beer, for a change. This make me incredibly sad for Dean that the only way he can have a relationship with his family is to become what they think he should be rather than them accepting him for who he is. I know it won't happen, but its why I would really like to see Dean be the one to walk away (not permanently) just so he can get some time and space and figure out who he is when he's not fulfilling a role to keep others happy.

Agree. It wont happen but Id love to see Dean actually say this to Mary. The problem is that the relationship is so one sides. Dean's the one putting in all the effort to make it work. He's the one who helped Mary adjust, he gave her space when she asked, he tried to keep in touch and include her and came when she asked. (A favor she did not return. ) Mary shows up with beer. I don't expect Dean to freeze Mary out, but what I would like to see is Dean stop making effort. Be the one to answer if she calls but let her call first, let her send the game request. Be the guy who just shows up with the beer, for a change. This make me incredibly sad for Dean that the only way he can have a relationship with his family is to become what they think he should be rather than them accepting him for who he is. I know it won't happen, but its why I would really like to see Dean be the one to walk away (not permanently) just so he can get some time and space and figure out who he is when he's not fulfilling a role to keep others happy.

I can understand Dean wanting a relationship with this mom, but what missing is that I'm not sure Mary wants one with him. Because he was spot on when he Dean said it was them Mary wanted space from. I'm not even sure Mary sees them as her sons yet, in anything other than name. Even when she lured Sam to the sight, it wasn't to make a personal connection it was to further defend her position with them. Words don't mean much if you don't back them up. Its why it never bothered me that Dean didn't apologize for the whole Gadreel thing. Why say sorry if your not. He will always do what he can to try and save Sam. So if Dean says, sorry Sam, I'll never do that again. Would anyone really believe it? It reminds me of the Ruby situation. Sam kept saying it was for Dean, that he wanted to get revenge for his brother. It may have started out that way, but Sam left his brother on his first night back from hell. He prioritized Ruby long before When the Levee Breaks. If it was truly about Dean, then why would he need her when Dean was back? His words don't match his actions. She keep saying she's doing it for Sam and Dean. But so far we've seen her prioritizing the BMOLs needs ahead of those of her sons. She refused to jeopardize the mission even if he meant Cas's life. What does she think losing Cas would do to them? She continues to justify her actions as 'the greater good', On the surface its a good things but is it really?. But she never asked her sons why they would be so opposed. They could probably give her an earful about how many times they thought they were doing something for the greater good only to have it backfire and make things worse. Is she really doing this for her sons or is she using her sons as excuse for what she's doing? I know Dean will always prioritize family, but this is why for me its coming across as Dean is 'knucking under' He's the one doing all the compromising and adjusting his behavior. Mary wants him to hear her out but she's refusing Dean the same courtesy. If she disagrees, find but at least ask him and really listen to what he has to say. I'll just agree to disagree

At least Glynn is writing this. I've liked both her episodes so far

Oops wrong thread

This seems answer a couple of questions I had. If there are secrets and lies its not more than one episode, and Dean allowed himself to be persuaded to work with the Brits. Predictable and expected. Also, I'm guessing this is where the whole "not all monsters are bad" thing is going to come up.

Brought over from the spoiler thread from @SueB Honestly, no there isn't an objective criteria. Its just personal preference and what I personally felt what worked in an ep and what didn't. Same with promos. There has been episodes I thought I would dislike based on a promo, and vice versa. I can list reasons for why I like or dislike ep or what I felt worked or what didn't, and for a lot of eps most of those reasons would be very different. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I used to watch The Tomorrow People. It was about Stephen as the chosen one, but I enjoyed the show more when it focused on the relationship between John/Jedidikaih (I can never spell that). Same with Suits. Give me the Harvey/Jessica/Louis dynamic over the main plot of Mike/Harvey anytime. Why- its just ultimately more interesting to me. Of course, "importance to plot" is always going to be subjective, for me its more about how I feel about something after it airs. I have a friend, she's not online so nothing she reads influences her. We're both big Dean fans but there have been episodes over the series that I've liked and she hasn't. Of course, people are going to prioritize different things because we all watch for different reasons. I don't really have any other way to describe it. Screen times, number of lines, etc don't mean much. I'd take five minutes of quality Dean over 42 minutes of him standing around or random shots of Dean driving the car and getting to late to actually participate in the hunt. I knew before The Raid, mostly likely Dean wouldn't have a lot of screen time, so I was prepared for that. I was actually enjoying the episode at first. Dean confrontation was Mary was great, and I enjoyed Dean and Ketch's dynamic far more than I thought I would. Then the end of the episode totally ruined it for me. I disliked that once again Dean gets lost on the way to the crime scene (I seriously hope this is the last we see of this trope). Then Dean apologizing ruined it. I didn't like that once again he was the one forced to compromise. I did come out out it thinking Ketch was more interesting, but the first scene doesn't have the impact it did because of the end. Its just another example of Dean's feelings being invalidated. It ruined the episode. I know most Dean fans wouldn't agree but for me, I consider The Purge a quality Dean ep. (Don't judge me, runs and hides). I'm not talking so much the content (because it was not a good ep for Dean in that sense) but when it was over, I immediately wanted to rewatch it because I thought it was such a quality performance from Jensen. That episode made me so emotional. That one was all about Jensen for me, not really Dean. (if that makes sense) One ep, that I love that doesn't get talked about a lot is Freaks and Geeks. It's an average ep and not really heavy toward one brother or the other, but it had every element that I love about Dean in it. His compassion, leadership/mentor skills, instincts, and badass Dean were all on display. Even though Krissy and company got the kill in the end, and Dean was pretty much made to just stand there, I still really liked Dean's part. So its not always about Dean shining. Also what bothers in one might not in another. For example, I did not like the fence hop in American Nightmare. The Fence was too low. It made Dean look like a clumsy oaf. Whereas, I wasn't a major fan of him breaking the ship but it didn't stand out as much since we got to see Dean hold his own in fights and kills Hitler. Where as in AN, he....I'm not sure exactly what he was doing. I guess stopping for pie. For me, it just further highlighted the fence scene. During an episode like 12.12, Dean's character history is important to me. So when we have an episode with multiple Michael references and its not even mentioned or even letting Dean use Michael's weapon it goes on my do not watch list. Dean feels irrelevant regardless of what else happens because it feels like the elephant in the room. Dean could have killed 50 demons in that ep and I would still dislike it based on the Michael stuff alone. Sam getting the kill wouldn't have mattered if it wasn't with Michael's weapon. TL:/DR= There are multiple reasons about why I might dislike/like an ep and it has nothing to do with screen time, or line.

Maybe ultimatum is the wrong word. I'm not sure of the best one the best one to use, but Dean doesn't agree with anything the Men of Letters are doing. He should be able to opt out without it being an issue. He shouldn't be the only one forced to compromise his beliefs for everyone else. Maybe it wouldn't feel like Dean being the doormat if Mary acknowledged wrong doing on her part, or corrected Dean that she knew it really wasn't about Tomato Rice Soup and Hey Jude. There is a way to do it without it being "my way or the highway." Something along the line of: Dean- Sam, if you want to work with these suckbags go ahead. But I want nothing to with them. " That way Dean's standing firm and Sam can't cry that Dean's trying to be bossy. He tried to get along with Ruby. It still didn't change anything. Sam does what Sam wants regardless. Dean didn't think it was a good idea for Sam to say yes, but then everyone kept telling him to get out of Sam's way, let Sam grow up. Dean suddenly agrees. Saving Sam has been Dean's prime directive since he's been 4. I'm not sure him not backing down on doing anything saving Sam is character growth. As for the other examples- Purgatory- Dean did back down. After Southern Comfort, he was lectured by Garth about it. After the events of 9.9 when Dean tried to walk away, Cas went and got Sam and said they needed him. Dean's usually not allowed to walk away when he's angry or upset. Sam taking the mark- was a conversation that Sam had with God behind Dean's back and Amara was on the verge of attacking. He was never given a chance to really voice his objections. Going to the cage- IMO, Dean never agreed with this. He pointed out multiple times why he didn't think it was God telling Sam to go into the cage. Sam didn't listen ad Dean knew that Sam was going to go anyway regardless of what he said or did so he went to make sure Sam was safe. IMO, this qualifies as Dean backing down mostly because no one listened to his very valid reasons why it was very bad idea. As for Dean being the bomb, and accepting, Dean has always been willing to sacrifice himself (despite what Sam thinks) so its not really character growth since Dean's default is usually, "I don't matter anyway." One thing I notice its always, Dean "grudingly accepts." Now, I know that Dean would never let Sam go into a dangerous situation, like with the cage, but what I'd like to see more of is people actually taking Dean's advice. He's got good instincts and has been proven right more often than not. So, it would be good to see a change in the narrative where people take his advice, rather than they insist they're doing it anyway, and Dean has to compromise and then clean up the mess when things go sideways. Dean refusing to take part in any Brits missions, for me is character growth. It would be nice if Dean isn't the one who always has to agree.

Sometimes the promo doesn't match the episode, so very little Sam and Cas in it doesn't really mean anything. The promo for episode 10,9 made it look very mark of Cain heavy and in the end it was mostly about Claire. The stuff they showed in the promo was basically five minutes of the entire episode. Given that the CW account tweeted that a hellhound was after a Winchester, and the writer of the ep is Perez I'm guessing this will be Sam. In the promo you can see the hellhound charge Sam. I'm expecting more 11.17 part 2 while Dean and Crowley wander around lost in the woods,

I think Dean's behaviour here reminds me a lot of episode ThinMan. Dean seemed annoyed and irritated that whole ep, like he was on step away from exploding. I was never sure if it was the the Mark of Cain or just being around The Ghostfacers. Mostly likely it was a mixture of both.

I can see that. I wonder if Dean catches Sam in a lie at the start of the ep. I can see that putting Dean on the defensive. Its hard to judge from a clip, but Dean still seems to be on edge like he was last ep.

They lie all the time. Why is Dean now having a problem with it?

The problem here is that its usually Dean being the one told that he needs to adjust his behavior to accommodate the behavior and POV of the other persons. Dean apologizes to Mary for thinking she should cook and clean and says he will accept her decisions. Mary stands there saying nothing and acts like its her due, that all the tension between them is coming from Dean's actions and Dean not acting her decisions to lie and work behind their backs. Is Mary sorry for what she did or sorry they found out what she did. IMO, there is a difference. Because even after everything Dean said to her, her first reaction is to try and introduce Sam to the Brits and get him to see for himself what its all about. Dean goes along to keep the peace is something we've seen him do time and time again. This isn't character growth for Dean. It's the exact same thing we saw in the Ruby situation. This is one time I'd actually like to see Dean stand on principal and issue an ultimatum. "I'm not working with these douchebags. If you and Mom want to, go ahead, its your decision but i want nothing to do with it. No rift should come because Dean's not saying they can't, he's saying he won't. If Sam/Mary want Dean to respect their decision then they should respect Dean's as well. At this point in the series, IMO, character growth for Dean would be risking a rift forming (not that one has to if they respect each other's decision). It reminds me of what Dean said to Timmy in bad boys. "Sometimes you have to do what's right for you even if you hurt someone else" I want to see him take this advice

I think what Sam is buying into is the premise more than the people saying it. A world without monsters would be pretty appealing to anyone. I don't think he trusts Mick and Co. but is under the impresssion he can work for them in his own way. He can use their toys and intel but not actually work for them. (if that makes sense). I just hope that if it is Sam's plan to use them, and take them down he lets Dean in on it, and not just spout the party line about how great it would be if they didn't have to hunt. I really hope we get to see this play out. It's one of my favorite aspects. More scenes like when Dean took out Lady Toni. We are supposed to get an episode where Eileen comes back (the Deaf hunters from last year. I can't remember the ep name). I wonder if she might be a rogue hunter the Brits might go after.

I was thinking more along the lines of Dean/Crowley. Compeletely one sided with Ketch constantly trying to impress Dean, and Dean not really giving him the time of day. Or to have Dean convert him to the grey

I never saw your posts as criticism. I've always enjoyed discussions on Dean's mental state. It's like a minefield and interesting to see how different people navigate it. I agree with your whole post. I'm not sure what the writers are planning but two epsisode really stand out in why I agree with what you wrote. When Sam's had the mytharc, Dean's role has been that of "big brother" but I think that part of why Dean feels aimless this season. Usually in eps like American Nightmare, and The Raid, when Sam's in trouble Dean storms off and usually rescues Sam. Both times we've seen that Sam really didn't need him in either situation. What's Dean's role if Sam can bale himself out every time. (Don't mean that as bitter, just something I question when I watch this season) Its not all bad. There has been a lot of character moments I've enjoyed, and in particular Asa Fox and Regarding Dean. ( I like that he's speaking up more and I hope it continues. I feel the same way about Ketch that I do a lot of characters. They become more interesting when they're attached to Dean. I can see the two of them becoming frenimies. I'd like to see that play out more I think how the rest of the season goes or if we get Dark Dean will depend on how the writers approach the Men of Letters thing. Like I mentioned earlier the framing of the final scene could easily suggest a Sam/Mary against Dean. With Dean being allowed to maintain his POV and accepting that Sam and Mary are working with the Brits but not joining actively joining them. Then I can see Dean feeling rejected and heading down that dark road again. But more then likely, I think we'll just a rehash of s4 and Ruby, except without the secrets and lies. Dean will agree to work with them but he won't really be on board. I'd prefer the former even if it meant splitting the brothers up during mytharc eps. It's new territory. It could lead to character growth for Dean. But I don't see them shaking up the status quo that much, so I suspect we'll just retread the same ground.

As for s7, I remember and interview with Jensen either at comic con or shortly after where the reporter point blank asked what Dean's story was. Jensen point blank said, he doesn't have one. (I wish I saved that link). Everything at comic con centered about Sam's hallcinations and the Leviathan. There wasn't a word mentioned about drinking or depression for Dean. There was a lot of "What about Dean" comments and then a few days later, Singer is suddenly talking about it. I'm not so sure it was a plot point so much a damage control. They took what they had and put a spin on it. The official season description was suddenly changed to include "Dean is hiding something." That turned out to be Amy. I do also remember another interview at the end of the season and some asked about it. Jensen remarked about how he wasn't sure because he felt that Dean was headed toward a break down but they hadn't done anything with it. For me, it showed that it was never really a storyline the writers were interested in telling. But I'm getting a bit to close to bitch/jerk territory so I'll leave it at that. As for the topic at hand, its one aspect of Dean's character that I've always found interesting. That we can gage his mental state. When the Purge opened and we saw that Dean had been up all night and was drinking scotch for breakfast than i knew things weren't going to go well for him. I'm wondering how this weeks ep is going to open up. Is Dean going to be shown drinking hard stuff again this week. He has to be suspicious of his mom and his brother. Dean's pretty observant and he had to see Mick and Sam talking. Plus, the framing of the final scene almost seemed to indicate Mary and Sam being on one side and Dean on the other. (Not saying this will happen, just what the staging looked like). Also what what will his relationship be like with Mary. Is he going to continue to hold her at arms length or will he be more open. If he's more open, I'll consider the tension between them over and done with that Dean's issues with her aren't going to be brought up again. But if he's still distant then I might have hope they will be addressed down the line.

Keeping in mind @catrox14 thoughts on Dean and alcohol I went and re-watched the opening scene of Mother's Little Helper. Compared to that scene it puts 12.14 in a much different perspective. In MLH, Dean displays many more traits associated with alcoholism. He has the bottle hidden and doesn't pull it out until Sam leaves. The depression is so heavy you can actually feeling it weighing Dean down. He finishes off the entire bottle, then lies to Sam and goes out for more. Whereas, yes, Dean wanted a drink, but I think when he saw the tatoo, he decided to both drink and try and gather intel. Plus, he left for a hunt, not more booze.

This is where my main worry with the story line is. Mary wanted Dean to respect her, Sam will want Dean to respect him and that has to extend from both Mary and Sam towards Dean too. It's why in regards to this storyline the bothers being on opposite sides wouldn't bother me. Because unless your going to make Dean jump on board, there is no other way to go out it. There has to be some conflict. If it feels organic to the storyline, rather than just contrived angst, I don't mind it so much and can make for some good TV. Even if they are opposed they don't have to be enemies to each maintain their point of view. I read that Jensen mentioned that the whole not all monsters are bad comes up. I'm really hoping that this is what Dean's scene with Mick is about. That Dean is maintaining his ground about not siding with them for that reason. Of course, the easiest way to deal with it is to have Sam present a plan that they should take them down from the inside and to protect their mother.

I'll be interested to see the dynamic between and Crowley after the whole Gavin thing. Is Crowley going to be holding a grudge? This is the direction I hope they'll go. I don't want to see Dean basically be made to work with people he doesn't trust just to keep the peace. I've been enjoying this Dean who stands up for himself and I want to see it continue. My biggest worry is that Dean is going to backslide to just doing whatever Sam and Mary ask because he's back to middle/peacekeeper role. Or worse Sam pulling out the "stop being bossy card." and Dean agreeing because he needs to "treat Sam like an adult." Sam and Dean are two different people with different outlooks on life. Dean sees hunting a little more like Ketch. (Surface comparison here) by being down, dirty and in the trenches. Sam, like is more like Mick, a co-ordinate effort. Since we know they aren' going to split up Sam and Dean for multiple episodes a good way to make this work would be for Sam to take a more Bobby like role, but gathering intel for them rather than going on missions. They obviously suck at research. That can be done by computer, and Sam can still join Dean on hunts. Neither brother would be in the right or wrong here. The Brits are saving lives, the disagreement is mostly the best way to go about this. Mass extinctions which will lead to some monsters and that don't deserve it dying, vs one at a time and increasing the risk to ordinary people. I don't think there is a black and white, easy answer here because method one leads to innocent people getting caught in the crossfire (and probably more than we think).