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I didn't mean to say that Sam's childhood was rosy. I just think he didn't have the responsibilities Dean did, and in that sense he had more opportunities to participate in normal things than Dean did. I guess I just feel when Dean has to point out to Sam that Sam left him too, it doesn't suggest that Sam felt a strong sense of responsibility towards Dean, but again we can agree to disagree.

I've always felt that Sam's and Dean's childhoods were effectively summed up in John's storage locker in Bad Day at Black Rock. John's keep sake of Sam was a soccer trophy and with Dean it was a sawed off shotgun. I'm not saying Sam's childhood was easy or idyllic but I do think he had it easier than Dean because he had Dean. It's canon that in addition to soccer Sam was in a play (Shadows) and a Mathlete (Metamorphosis). It's not a story book childhood but he at least did get to partake in some normal child hood activities. I doubt John supported that. Dean was busy making sure there was enough food. We also saw that Sam had outside influences encouaging him to go his own way. (The teacher in After School Special and Sully). From Scarecrow: From Darkside Dean has to point out to Sam that when he walked away he also walked away from Dean too, and Sam admits he doesn't view family the way Dean does. Even if Sam didn't pick that memory he didn't deny that it was a happy one for him. It doesn't seem like Sam felt that same responsibility toward Dean that Dean did to him. I do feel under the circumstances, the show has told that Sam had far fewer barriers to cross in order to walk away but we can agree to disagree.

I don't think its that simple, as Dean has a choice he and he chose not to take it. IMO, Dean's life since he was four has been about filling a role. He was solider, son, brother, caretaker, etc. The closest thing he ever had in his life about side of hunting was at Sonny's. We saw Dean flourish there. Good grades, wresting champions, friend, etc. Then John showed up because he needed Dean for a job. Needed being the key word here. I do think there was a part of Dean that wanted to stay But then there was also a part that wanted to be with his family. (Major props here to Dylan Everett for portraying Dean's confusion so well here.. The deciding factor was when he saw Sam. There was also this conversation with Sam: This is further backed up in Skin Bolding mine. Dean's sense of responsibility runs deep. We even saw this before Mary died when he felt the need to comfort his mother over John. If Dean did walk away and something happened to Sam or John, Dean would never have been able to live with himself. So it is true that no one forced him to stay, Dean himself probably didn't feel this was an option given the circumstances. Growing up, Dean was very much in the parental role and I think that extended to John as well There is also his abandoment issues. When Sam left John cut him off. Dean wouldn't want to risk that, due t his abandoment issues. Even when John ditched him, Dean still tried to full the good son role. I don't deny that Dean likes hunting, but I think his reasons for staying were far more complicated. And that leaving or the option to leave wasn't black and white.

Poor boy can't help himself.

Jensen, did spoil the final at a con last year, so maybe there is some truth to this.

You don't have to alter your comment, I was just adding on to what you were saying. Sorry for the confusion.

I wonder if they want the time slot to launch summer programming, the following week.

Great post Catrox, I agree. I never thought Dean was suicidal in that speech. I thought he was being practical. That there was no way that God's obstacle course wasn't going to end in death. Since Sam wanted a future, and Dean always figured he'd go out swinging it made sense for him to the do the trials. Everything in that speech went out the window the minute Sam got the trials. Not a single thing was done on Sam's end to show Dean the light. I also found that the more Dean tried to fuss over Sam, the more Sam resented it. The more Sam saw it as Dean not thinking he was capable. The longer the season went on the more it came across as Sam containing to do the trials just to prove to Dean that he could. He even accused Dean of thinking he needed a chaperone. The problem here is that Sam did. When you're supposed to be too weak to stand you can't exactly be counted on no matter how good you are at something. Its not always about trust, something its just the way it is.

I don't think the brothers should be hunting together after the last episode. I think given their positions, character growth would actually be splitting up and bucking the status quo. Seperation doesn't always have to mean conflict. Im not saying Dean would refuse to help if Sam got into trouble (although based on the way they're writing Sam this season he really doesn't need any help) They are clearly on different pages despite Dean's resignation. Just because he didn't argue doesn't mean he actually wants an part of if. Unless Jensen was just phoning it in, Dean's body language and tone clearly indicates he doesn't agree with what Sam's doing, and I'm not all that convinced Sam will bail if Dean sees something as sketchy? He was itching to answer that phone. IMO, this can only lead to more arguments than splitting up would. Sorry, I just can't see Dean's reactions at the end of these last two episodes as character growth, its not anything new to his character. If anything its character regression given the way Dean's been pretty vocal about his opinions lately. If the writers wanted me to see those eps as character growth, then it makes me question whether I was supposed to see the other times as Dean standing up for himself as character growth or just more MEEN!Dean being mean.

*Sorry DeeDee I think the original quote was from Aeryn, Im not sure how to change it. Another part of the problem was that this came right on the heels of Sam's speech in Sacrifice. Sam was basically saying he wanted to die because he felt like Dean liked other people more than him. (That is exactly how that speech came across to me from the way it was worded). Sam is complaining that Dean wasn't putting him first. Even if Sam didn't mean to that speech was only going to reinforce Dean's prime directive that John drilled into his head since he was four. No way, he doesn't do everything he can right on the heels of that. Im not saying that what he did was right, just that I can understand why he did it.. I remember the writers of the ep tweeting that Sam was coming from a place of honestly. So it seemed they believed what he was saying. If Sam had stuck to issue at hand, then maybe but saying that Dean only sacrifices if he's not getting hurt, or telling Dean he does more harm then good? Those were lies and designed to hurt Dean. If Dean was frustrating him he should have walked away instead of getting petty. But I tend to believe those are things Sam fully believes because even though it wasn't their intention the writers had Gadreel confirm it. During Meta Fiction when Dean was confronting Gadreel, the angel said a lot of the same stuff Sam threw at Dean in the purge, telling Dean these were things Sam felt. The problem was Sam threw Gadreel out almost immediately after he was learned he was possessed. So in order for Gadreel to actually know that stuff wouldn't Sam had to have been thinking it all along? Plus, its also further enforced in 9.01 when we got that trip into Sam's head. According to Sam he saved the world all by himself, and Dean is a halfwit who didn't do jack. That fits with the stuff Sam said in the Purge. That was before Sam was even possessed. Dean gets what little self worth he has from helping others so saying that to Dean was worse than anything physical Sam could have done, and why it was more then just a few harsh remarks from Sam. When he was tied up during Thin Man and that person almost cut his throat. Dean hit rock bottom, so I dont' agree that Dean felt no remorse or guilt over what did to either Kevin or Sam. IMO, actions speak far louder than words. He even said that he deserved to burn for Kevin. Then he tried to apologize to him and got accused of having a pity party for himself. So why bother feeling sorry for his actions when he's told he's wrong to do so. When Dean said he'd do it again, I took that to mean saving Sam, not that he didn't feel bad that Kevin got caught in the crossfire. Sam and Dean should never have reunited after Sharp Teeth. Sam's anger was still burning strong, and he obviously wasn't ready accept Dean back. If they aren't going to separate the brothers they need to stop writing situations where its necessary.

I think we did get one. It seems like he bought what they were selling. Because if he's working a double cross it makes no sense why he wouldn't tell Dean about it right away. Especially when he saw how much Mary doing that upset his brother. Why lie about it for weeks? If Sam said to Dean, "These guys are legends in their own minds and their going to get mom killed, and I can't let that happen. We need to send them back where they came from." (Maybe not those exact words, but something similar.) Dean probably would have been on board. It is still possible we'll get a flashback where Sam and Dean discuss this, but seeing how hurt Dean was at Sam doing the same things their mother did, it also doesn't make sense not to tell him then and there. It makes Sam look clueless to his brothers emotions.

I agree here. Dean did what he's done since childhood. What makes matters worse is that Sam had a front row seat to how upset and angry Dean got. How much Mary lying to them him hurt. Then Sam did the exact same thing for weeks. What made Sam confess wasn't that he knew he was hurting Dean it was tears and guilt of a complete stranger that finally broke through. Why wasn't the fact that Sam knew lying would hurt his brother enough? If they hadn't taken that case would Sam have come clean when he did? Sam said himself that secrets ruin relationships. This is another reason why I feel like this ep further invalidated Dean's feelings. I don't think it was character growth. The read I got off Jensen in that last scene was that Dean was resigned to the situation. I thought he caved way to quick, because there are counter arguments about why they shouldn't. He didn't like it, he can't change it because he knows if he does so he'll go along and try to keep everyone safe. Its the Ruby situation all over again. Did Dean really have a choice in this situation? I'm not saying he has a gun to his head or that he can refuse, but he's kind of in a no-win situation. If he refuses, he's being stubborn and refusing to help because the cases are legit and they are saving people. If he wants to hunt with Sam, then he has to go along. If he agrees he's working with people he doesn't want to work with and doesn't trust. So Dean is doing what Dean does. Trying to make the best of a bad situation. That's 100% Dean and not something we haven't seen Dean do multiple times. That's why I wish the show would get out of the mindset that the brothers have to be attached at the hip. If they'd be willing to separate them for a few eps (im not talking about multiple episodes in a row). We could two hunts in one ep. The eps that they aren't separated about can get around by having them found the exact same hunt. Dean's more than capable of finding his own. That way Dean's sticks to his principals, Sam can do his thing, and it could allow them to introduce to new hunters as Dean and Sam could take multiple hunting partners (RIP Wally). Neither brother is right or wrong in this scenario. I also feel like the Impala was once again a metaphor for Dean. Dented and broken

I've always found it ironic that the one season they cut Misha they had a perfect story line set up for him. They could have used MC as the the Leviathan boss. It would have added that personal element to the story. How do they take out the Leviathans but save their friends. As for s7 its just kind of there. There were episodes I enjoyed but I thought the overall story was lacking. It started off interesting enough but it fell off the rails when they turned the Leviathans into politicians. This show needs to stay away from politics. The hallucination story went on way to long. Dean's depression ultimately went no where. It was never really explored. Plus, I could never figure out why the Leviathans would go searching for the tablet. I means, they're creatures that no one knows how to kill, or even exists. The Winchesters were the only ones who even knew that the world was at risk. So the Leviathans think its a great idea to search for something that contains nothing other than instructions on how to kill them. I could buy they wanted it secure but no one, other than the leviathans knew it existed in the first place.

My first thought was that this was more of a Jensen thing. As I understand he doesn;t like anyone driving the car but him. I imagine they didnt use the hero car when the hell hound attacked, but rather one of the old beat up ones. Jensen told a story at a con about one of the stunt drivers who accidentally put Baby in a ditch and he declared no one was driving the car but him. Regular vs recurring. I'm not an expect but as I understand it (just remembering things Ive heard over the years so could be mis-remembering) is that it has very little to do with screen time, but more to do with pay and availability. If your a regular you are contracted for a certain number of episodes, ex 15. You have to be paid for those 15 episode even if your only used for 10. An the actor has to make sure they are available to film when when called. I don't know if they can take outside work or not. Pellegrino seems to be in demand, If they wanted him they probably had to lock him in. Whereas with recurring, if your contracted for 15 but only used for 10, you only get paid for 10, I do believe you can take outside work as it comes up.

I think we are misunderstanding each other. It was this part of your post, as to why I felt you misunderstood my my post. It doesn't matter who is in the lead. At this point, the final kill is part of a much larger problem with how I feel about the writing for Dean's character this season. yes, happy to agree to disagree.

From @SueB in the ep thread I ask that you please go back and re-read what I wrote earlier as I expressly stated its not about statistics, screen time or lines its about feelings and on a Dean front this episode left me feeling empty. Not getting the kill was just icing on the cake in this episode. I don't like buffoon Dean at the start of this ep, I didn't like how easy Dean gave in and I didn't like that Dean just wandered aimlessly. Episode 12 wasn't about the kill it was about the weapon. I've never stated otherwise that anything I post is other than my opinion, so when I said "I called it" about Sam and the hell hound and Sam doing everything, from my POV that is exactly what happened. If you don't agree thats fine. We see everything different. As for the conversation with Crowley its nothing we haven't seen before, its not new. We've seen Dean compromise his beliefs and attempt to keep the peach long before this episode. There was the stuff with the cage. Dean didn't not agree but he knew Sam was going to do it anyway so he did his best to support him. We saw it back in episode 4 with Ruby. Dean really didn't like her but he gave her the benefit of the doubt. The plan to get the demons and angels together in Heaven and Hell was Sam's idea and Ruby was a huge part of that plan. Dean had accept working with her,. When Ruby proved untrustworthy he was still supposed to support and conditions meant nothing and conditions meant nothing. Which is why the whole "we work with them, but only under these conditions" is also meaningless. You (general you) might mean them in that moment, but as we saw Sam was extemely eager to answer the phone. As Im really over Dean being taught a lesson at this point. So I maintain MY POV that Dean, rolled over, learned his lesson and really had nothing to do in this ep. We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

3- Please see my comments as to why I feel like it does support this POV. We see this differently. The rest I'll address in the Bitch/Jerk thread as its too off topic here.

Hopefully this will continue down the road, with Dean being allowed to keep this instincts. I hope that Dean's Men of Letters name is Aragorn and not Samwise. That scene also reminded me of Jensen's massive eyeroll at comic con when he said Mary would be just one more person he would have to sacrifice for.

We can agree to disagree here. It feels like the Ruby situation all over again. Sam kept telling himself that he was using her. He didn't trust her, she was just a means to an end, yet it very much turned out she was using him to further her agenda. Simply saying the words isn't really reliable when the actions contradict them. Despite the Brits being completely inept, Sam is singing their praises and giving them credit for things they didn't do. They send him cases and he goes after them. He can tell himself its about just them sending him on a case, but he's doing their bidding and relying on them for the next "order." If we go by what we've seen on screen, Sam has only gone on their missions. That's exactly how it started with Mary. He even lied to Dean about it. Given how shoddy Sam knows their intel is, is he double checking before taking off? When Dean brough him the newpaper article, he read it and shot it down because it didn't sound like something. Now it seems like they send Sam a text and their off. That very much fits my definition of working for them.

As the season stands now, it would be extremely easy to write Dean out completely. He has no tie to any story line. The Men of Letters are far more about Sam and Mary. Cas has the angel stuff and Crowley has Lucifer. Dean is just taking up space. He's not even really participating in the MOTW episodes as the majority of time Sam is the one interviewing witnesses and taking out the bad guys. Dean's not even really in the big brother role this season. Dean's just taking up space.

Now we know why that montage at the end of Regarding Dean felt like a good bye. It was.

I wish I could feel this way, but so far everything has been straight up. What you see is what you get. Sam appears to have drunk the koolaide. He can tell himself its on his terms but is it really? Especially if he's not questioning anything. Right now, Sam and Dean seem to have signed up to be puppets. They might not have the strings attached like Mary does but right now, its 'here's a hunt. Go' 'Sir, yes sir.' It seems Dabb really does believe these guys are the good guys, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dean also start sipping from the cup they they hand him. It seems like all of Dean's inner circle are lying to him at this point. Mary lied, Sam lied, Cas lied and Crowley (admittingly to Sam too). That was another thing that bothered me about this episode. It totally undermined 12.12 (which Perez also wrote). Cas decided that the Winchesters are this home. Dean even said 'let go home." But I guess its "nope not really because my "blood family' wants me back. Family doesn't end with blood really feels empty after that.

Your post was more entertaining then the episode. I have to tell myself Dean didn't react because he's just done. Done with Mary, done with Sam and done with being lied too and at the end of the season he's going to take off. (not really but its my happy place.).

Unfortunately, it also seems like Sam and Dean are now working for the British Men of Letters. Because we haven't seen them object to anything the Brits want them to do. It feels like their in charge and Sam, Mary and now Dean are their lackies.

Yeah, I liked they gave a shout out to JDM but Dean usually only gets like that when he's altered, like with the Mark or after John's death. Straight forward hunts, he does the job. It totally ruins the scene last week where he stopped Ketch from torturing the vampire.