ILoveReading

Brought over from the Dean thread I'm not looking for Mark of Cain level bad ass, I'm looking for Dean's character to be treated with respect and I find that lacking since ep 12. I've stated before that the first half of this season I've liked more than I disliked because I really liked how Jensen chose to play Dean. My favorite episode this season isn't Regarding Dean, its Asa Fox. Because all of my favorite Dean qualities were on display in that ep. In end in it was a group effort. Dean in that episode fits my definition of Badass. He didn't win the fight with the Nazi's in episode 5 but he held his own and gave as good as he got. So its not always about winning and its not always about the kill. But something changed after episode 12. I feel like Dean got left on the cutting room floor. He's on screen but that's about it. It can't be denied there are multiple episodes where Dean was kept out of the action. The hell hound ep wasn't random because in the end its a scripted show. If the writers wanted to give Dean the kill they could have. Not to mention that ep was written by Perez, who made it a point to say that Sam got to kill Ramiel because Dean got to kill The YED, where was this balance he was so concerned about during hell hound episode? I feel like Dean's lost all desire to hunt. He's there and going through the motions, but that's about it. Hence the valium Dean reference. *No, I don't think he's literally popping valium, but its a metaphor for his behavior since Valium mellows you out. It seems to getting progressively worse each episode. This last episode was particularly bad when Dean seemed distracted and checked out the entire time. His body language and demeanor seem to supporting this more and more each episode. (I'd like to believe its for storyline reasons but... Not really a spoiler but I'll tag just in case. The majority of your examples are from the first half. Dean looks like an amateur these past eps. He gets his ass handed to him easily by a single werewolf, or he gets taken out by Ramiel and has to be saved or drops his weapon, or gets it stuck in meat. He has to be saved more than he saves these days. IMO, the lengths the last episode went to, to prevent Dean from firing the colt or getting the kill was blatant. I don't' think the start of episode 15 did Dean any favors. Dean looked like and uncouth neanderthal. Since when does he beat monsters with a baseball bat? It didn't work for me. Plus, I want see Dean hunt, not hear about it. Imagine if First Born just told use Dean took out a bunch of demons, rather than showed up that fight scene. Not nearly as exciting. It's also bringing up things tied to Dean's past without mentioning them. When there was an episode where they were dealing with psychics, Sam got a significant amount of time, even writing Dean out for an entire act. But no mention of Michael, or letting Dean use the Michael lance, or his connection to hellhounds. Its taking away Dean's POV and his voice. (That was why I liked the first half). Why isn't he allowed to question things like the colt? He seems to take a back seat on hunts with Sam leading the questioning and bonding with the guest stars. He goes mute, like with Mick in the British Invasion. He started the speech, why wasn't he allowed to finish it? I'm not saying Sam has a lot of POV or voice either but at least the writers are letting him be a competent hunter. I realize that MMV, but this is why I feel badass Dean is gone. Since episode 12, I feel like I'm watching the cardboard cut out, 1 dimensional, comedic side kick Kripke first envisioned for the character. Jensen can only do so much.

Responding in bitch/jerk

Did they mention if the werewolf cure was like the vampire cure in that you couldn't have fed yet.

The only thing the writers are consistent about is that if they want to do it they will, regardless of what was said or done in the past. I don't recall if it was mentioned there are other bunkers or not. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if suddenly another top sekrit bunker hidden somewhere. Especially if the writers wanted to go for broke and blow up this one for drama but not lose an expensive set. I know that the BMoL's seems to wrap up ep 22 but its possible they planted explosives. I can easily see them having a 'if we can't have it no one can mentality." or Lucifer could do it which would make us hate him, or both. If you blow it up in a magic/portal/nexxus then it could catapult the characters into another dimension. I always thought a cool episode would have been an alternate universe where everything was reversed. John, died instead of Mary, Dean grew up the rebellious son, etc. If they do go alternate dimension, I hope its something new rather than Oz. Both Oz eps didn't seem to go over well (or at least at the sites I was reading at the time). Looks like Mark and Misha were filming too. The dirt on Mark reminds me of dust and debris someone might be covered with after and explosion, but most likely it comes from his confrontation with Lucifer. As for Jensen's pic, if you (general you) follow Jason Fischer's twitter when he posts the quote of the day you can see what scenes their filming. It looks like scene Jensen tweeted about will either take place either at the very beginning of the episode, or towards the end or part 2 or the beginning of part 3. I hope its the beginning of the ep because given the way this season has gone if its the middle there is a strong possibility that Dean is sent back to the cornfield.

TBH, when we first got the spoiler that Sam wasn't going to look for Dean, I didn't feel like they were throwing Sam under the bus because I felt he show was going to tell us that Dean was wrong for being hurt by it, and in my opinion that is what happened. I believe Carver meant for the audience to side with Sam. Singer gave an interview where he said Dean wasn't being fair to Sam. Dean got the lecture in Southern Comfort about appreciating Sam. Carver constantly referred to Sam as being mature. The only time Sam really got called out on it was when with Bobby mentioned that they never followed that promise not too look. In Citizen Fang, nothing Sam did was ever brought up or mentioned again. Sam left Dean chained to a radiator and put on unstable man to spy on Benny. It was all swept under the rug. Whereas Dean's text message was mentioned over and over. With Charlie even telling Dean he ruined Sam's chance at a normal life. When Dean tried to walk away, Cas forced them back together saying Sam was needed and in the end Sam got his own way when Dean cut ties with Benny. It was the same with s10 and the whole Lester thing, and Sam using the book of the Damned, and again with Sam forcing Dean to work the the Brits without his knowledge. (Imagine if the situation had been reversed, Dean would have been accused of taking away Sam's agency and being bossy and controlling). With its all brushed under the carpet and labelled "character growth" for Dean that he doesn't get upset. Plus, narrative framed s10 as Sam doing it because he didn't want to be without his brother and it was considered an act of brotherly love. He was doing it for he same selfish reason Dean did, yet other characters were brought in support Sam's actions. He was given dialogue like, Dean's getting worse, or Dean's given up to create a false sense of urgency. If it was prior to episode 13 I would have agreed with this, but after 13 I found that Dean figured out the way of control the mark was by his inner peace. His level of violence was no more than what Cas and Sam were displaying. But other people supported the tell, to reinforce Sam's actions. None of that suggests the writers wanted me to side with Dean, MMV

If other hunters were smart enough to stay clear of HMSS, and Sam and Dean followed them down the rabbit hole, why would other hunter look to Sam and Dean as their leaders? Episode 20 brings back the witch twins, so I'm guessing their first on the Brits hit list.

I'm guessing the relative new comer will turn out to be Lady Toni and the old favorite is rumored to be DJ Qualls. I saw this on his twitter Hopefully next time Dean says someone is bad news, Sam will listen Die Lucifer Die and never return As for the death, I still wonder if the bunker will blow up. I know that they probably wouldn't blow up such an expensive set so its possible that they blow it up through VFX (which according to the tumblr spoiler sheet, this episode is supposed to be heavy on), and then over the hiatus Sam and Dean can "rebuild it" or they'll move into another bunker in another state and just redress some of the decorations. As for who dies, I'll be surprised if it isn't Sam with the way this season has pushed him. Dean OD's on Valium and ends up taking a detour back to the cornfield and arrives at the bunker after all the action has gone down. New stories- wayward daughters, probably.

I miss him too. He seemed to be the first person to recognize the value of the Dean character outside of just being a brother and body guard. I think it was his influence that lead to Dean's s4 storyline. The longer the show goes the more convinced I become that he was the biggest reason for the success of the early seasons.

I disagree here, because regardless of how the audience saw it I think it was authorial intent that Sam meant what he said. If it was their intent just to make Sam look bad they would have made him take back the whole speech or given Dean a chance to rebutt it. The only part addressed was Sam saying he wouldn't save Dean. I thought that was what Sam was refering to when he said, I lied. The night the episode aired, the writers tweeted that Sam was coming from a place of honesty. Plus, this conversation took place weeks after it happened so while Sam might still be angry but he had time to think the matter over. Plus,, in Thinman they drove the point home again with the (IMO) weak and forced parallel with Ed and Harry. Even repeating a lot of the same dialogue. Then for good measure they drove it home again in Meta Fiction with Gadreel taunting Dean with it. Gadreel was long gone by the time The Purge aired. Since Sam kicked out Gadreel immediately after he knew he was possessed, for Gadreel to repeat this stuff, the only way he could have picked up on it is if some part of Sam believes it.

You can say this about Dean too. For the first time in 12 years it seems like the only things available to speculate on are how they are going to write him out of the action this week. I don't mean that in a jerk/bitch manner, its just the way he's been writtten since episode 12, IMO.

I had that thought as well. I hope they leave Michael in the cage. The only way I want to see him is if he's being played by Jensen.

We have two local channels showing SPN re-reruns. One is showing s6 and one if showing. In a superficial way the Campbells remind me of the British Men of Letters. They both want to use the brothers for their own purposes. The difference is that Dean isn't rolling over and playing dead. He was never comfortable working with Crowley or the Campbells. He was questioning and clearly showed his distrust. He even questioned Sam. He was smart and observant. (He noticed they took the Alpha out alive). The association didn't last long. Then Dean took matters into this own hands by going to Dr. Robert. Same with First Born. Dean kept Crowley at arms length the whole time. I do think he would have accepted the Mark without or without Crowley there. Even as a demon, Dean didn't take orders. I just wish we could get that Dean back. Valuim Dean isn't much fun to watch. (Props to whoever came up with that name).

Mark P, hinted someones eyes my glow gold, maybe its the baby's

I don't think Dabb meant for Mary, or the British Men of Letters to come across as badly as they have. I think this season suffered from the same problems of season 6. Good ideas but trying to hard to cram them all into one season. I think this season would have been better served if they eliminated Lucifer completely and focused just on the British men of Letters. There were some interesting characters and lots of room for shades of grey if there was a clear story idea, but I feel like every writer has a different idea of who they're supposed to be. Dabb couldn't even keep it straight in one episode. Nothing about Lady Toni's actions made sense. Why did the Brits come over just as the world was about to end. Where were they and their fancy toys when there was an apocalypse. Why torture Sam when you want his help? Show us more of the shades of grey, because there is a lot. What's the better way? Eliminate all monsters, and you take out some that don't deserve to be killed and also by sitting back and waiting till they had more intel, then the collateral damage would be higher, or taking out those that deserve it one at a time and allowing those that deserve it a 2nd chance. There is no right or wrong to either side because they both have their advantages and disadvantages. As unpopular as this opinion might be I also feel it would have been better to have the brothers each maintain their own stances. They are vastly different people who aren't going to agree on everything. I think it could have lead to some interesting philosophical conversations between the boys, kind of like they had in Faith and Nightmare about what do they do with human monsters and was it okay for them to kill them. You wouldn't even really have to separate the brothers because you could just have them show up at the same hunt, as a way to demonstrate their bond. Instead of turning Mary into an antagonist, have her remain neutral and over the course of the season getting to know her sons Disagreements aren't always about bad/good, right/wrong sometimes is just different ways of thinking. In the end it could have been both learning from the other. To this day, Faith is still my all time favorite episodes, because I think it dealt really well with the two major themes of the show. What makes a monster and how far is to far to save a loved one. Sam and Dean seemed to be on opposite sides that episode so if done right it can be effective without turning to angst. As for the antagonist, I don't think a huge big bad would have been needed. It could have been a rogue faction in the Brits who were working for the monsters and leaking intel. Hunters were getting hurt, and at first it looks like the brits are corrupt but in the end its not the organization as a whole. As for Cas and Crowley they could have been targets. Then you have drama but in the end, again neither brother is going to end up looking like the wrong one. I get that Jared and Jensen are only working part time, but I think they missed an opportunity to really develop other hunters, and have more emphasis on the recruitment drives and have other hunters either sign up or not. Develop a friendship between Mick and Sam. Have Dean be a mirror to Ketch and allow him to realize he isn't just a killer. As it stands right now, everything about this season is so poorly throughout and executed. The potential was there but none of it was realized. Instead they destroyed Mary, Sam and Dean look like patsies, Dean is...I'm not sure but I gave up trying to figure it out.

The question was is Dean going to feel vindicated. Dabb's answer was some but not a lot (parapharasing). That, IMO, doesn't sound like he's hiding anything, it sounds like a straight forward answer, again MMV

Bolding mine This is the key word. Sam and Dean can talk about the British men of Letters until their blue in the face. They can mention how much they hate Ketch and don't trust him, complain about the Brits. IMO, not of that matters if you don't back up your actions. Despite their dislike of Ketch, they're still reporting to him. Despite now knowing about the code, they're still working jobs for them. They're still accepting jobs from them despite knowing their philosophy that the only good monster is a dead one. We've seen nothing to indicate they're looking for their own jobs anymore. Despite their talk, none of their actions back up their words. The biggest problem with this story is that with the multiple red flags the boys have ignored the "come to Jesus" should have happened long ago. Sam and Dean should know that if any other hunter had caught the werewolf case there is a good chance Claire would be dead. After Mick wanted to kill Eileen it would have been a time to wonder if they should continue to work for them, but nope. Business as usual. When Sam and Dean have their epiphany its going to look like came a day late and a dollar short. Every other hunter in America figured out these guys were bad news with no more than a cup of coffee. Sam and Dean, who are supposed to be the premier hunters in America can't figure it out despite multiple clues. This was at the start of the very first case Dean worked for them. We have heard him express no objections since, other than saying he doesn't like Ketch, but again he's not doing anything about it. If Dean had said something like, "Screw it. Ketch can read about it in the paper" That would be something, but again actions trump words. So I don't see Jensen changing scripts. He had very little significant dialogue in 17, and 18 Dean looked like he was mainlining Valium. But I don't remember him doing anything other than saying I hate Ketch, but doing nothing so suggest he's actually going to stop working for him. So I think Jensen is trying to put some hesitation into Dean's actions but he can't change dialogue that isn't there. It is frustrating but it doesn't change the fact that its making Sam and Dean looks clueless. I get dragging it out but there are ways to do it without making Sam and Dean look like amateurs. If its some long con ( and I really don't see it being one), its past time they let the audience in on it. Its going to look like it was forced in. But we can agree to disagree as I think im getting to far off topic. Since the finale is written weeks in advance Dabb would know how its going to turn out. I'd like to be wrong but I don't see a major twist coming here, with regards to the brits, MMV

It's hard to say what's going on with Dean since they've dropped his POV. I don't agree its changing the scripts because the writing for Dean just isn't there. What is is very limited and very passive. All we've seen is that Dean doesn't like Ketch but from all indications neither he nor Sam are looking for their own cases anymore and reporting in. They seem to be following the rules, even if they don't like them. After the whole thing with Mick trying to kill Eileen should be a huge red flag that something is very wrong with the whole organization. But the very next week its just business as usual. Why aren't they questioning anything? Hopefully we'll see something in the next batch of eps but the only spoiler we have is that Mary is the one starting to have doubts. Not Sam and Dean.

It wasn't an early interview It was from the spoiler we just got. The spoiler we got from Dabb indicated he's under the belief that Dean is on board. I find on this show what you see is what you get. Given Dabb's words, I think what we've seen is Jensen acting against the script. I don't see any twist coming regarding the brits, because they're have been zero hint that Sam and Dean are running a long con. If the next couple of episodes showed the Brits getting false info that would tell me that maybe Sam and Dean found the bug, even if we don't actually see it. Same with Dean. , I don't see any special going on with him. None of the usual red flags are present. He's just another name on Ketch's list. Id like to think that he was on top meant something but again so far nothing indicates that. Berens is writing the ep with the Dean/Mary confrontation and since he also wrote the one in the raid it wouldn't surprise me if they did have her side with Mary.

I agree. I thought maybe they were building something with Dean and that is why he seemed to apathetic and overdosing on valium but according to Dabb, Dean's all in with the Brits. The Mary/Dean confrontation rumored for either ep 21 or 22 isn't going to be any more effective for me than it was in The Raid if someone comes along and shames Dean into apologizing and admitting he was the one at fault for the relationship not working. Since Jody is in that episode, I'm guessing it will be her. Any resolution is going to feel forced and pulled out of left field because nothing the Brits are doing makes any kind of logical sense. If they kill Umbridge and Ketch, are the Brits just going to pack up and go home? I would think that would make them more determined to kill Dean and Sam. So there really isn't a way for the Brits to really be wrapped up this season, unless Lucifer is one of the "old men" and they can kill two birds with one stone and then the Nephilim can go to heaven and we never hear the name Lucifer or British Men of Letters again for as long as the show is on the air.

I agree with this in theory, but I'd never thought Dean would have just rolled over and played good solider for the Brits. Its so out of character for him to not put up more of resistance or at least refuse to go along. Something like we'll take a case but i'm not reporting in. So I guess it depends on whether the writers decided to take the easy way out,, by having Sam and Dean discuss their hunter buddies.

I thought that was the point of the bug. To get as much intel as they can.

Yup. Its especially irritating coming right after an episode where Sam and Dean talk about their legacy. Now they're responsible for giving up the names of their hunter friends and getting more people killed.

It would seem Sam and Dean haven't found the bug yet.

This was the first episode that made my never rewatch list. The level of stupid in it was too much. Dean not noticing before he did and it also didn't do Sam any favors that what clued Dean in was that Sam wanted to hang out with him. Then at the end Sam and Dean were all excited for Gary (I think that was his name) got the girl but seemed unconcerned that there was a dead teenager on the floor of his parents basement. Disappointing that the demon bounty on Dean was dropped. It's too bad they couldn't make the original concept work where Sam and Dean were supposed to switch bodies.

The most exciting thing about those promo photos is Dean's hair. Bless whoever did it.