ILoveReading

This doesn't explain why Dean can't hold on to a weapon, think of a plan, or hold his own in a fight anymore. If anything being in a good place should be increasing Dean's enthusiasm for hunting not decreasing it and making him a worse hunter.

I wonder if the young Dean stuff might be the s13 footage Jensen and Jared talked about. Because Im wondering where a flash back would really fit in. Since the ep description says Sam and Dean are on their own in ep 22 that suggests Mary isn't with them for most of the episode. Unless she comes in at the last moment and saves the day, but i'm not really sure how that would lead into a conversation about her deal or a flashback. Unless, the flashback is centered around a nightmare, Dean has. I wonder if Mary might make a similar deal that allows her to go back in time stop the yellow eyed demon before he can infect Sam and season 13 starts off as something similar to What is and What Should Never be.

Dean this season is reminding me so much of Alec in the back half of season 2 of Dark Angel. Alec's screen time and coverage drastically diminished and his skills and abilities deteriorated. Ricky Whittle, a former star of The 100, recently spoke about this in an article. He mentioned that the show runner made his character irrelevant,, drastically reduced his lines, never gave him anything important to do. Whether that is happening with Dean on SPN, I have no idea but it certainly seems to be following the pattern of those two examples. I don't buy its just new writers either because with the exception of Perez, I thought both Glynn and Yockey did pretty good job with Dean, and the first half wasn't great for any character but it felt more balanced. They didn't write Dean as incompetent and barely knowing which end of the gun to hold. (when he can hold on to it that it, or find the hunt in the first place..) His relationship with Mary was the same as it is now, and the shift int he writing of Dean happened before Cas disappeared so that explanation also doesnt' work. Since episode 12 its tipped so far in Sam's direction Dean might as well not even be on the playing field. I'm not really sure I'd call Mary's return more of a Dean plot since they were both included equally. Even after Mary left we still saw Sam taking Mary's side and trying to play peace maker between Dean and Mary. I think its more Sam and Dean were a part of Mary's plot rather than the other way around. If they're following back on shallow characterizations of Sam, brainy research guy or Dean, brawny guy that eats a lot, then Dean should be the one winning the fights, but he's not. If he even manages to show up before all the action is over. Perez's interview shows this isn't true. He flat out said he gave the kill to Sam because Dean already got to kill one. I think Dabb has a clear bias toward Sam. It dates back to comic con last year. I believe Dabb was unofficially in charge last year, because he was at comic con rather than Carver. All he could talk about was Sam's visions. Nothing was mentioned about the Dean/Amara connection despite the entire premier revolving around it. Then the bare minimum was with it. Plus, Form and Void, The Devil in The Details and 11.17 all follow the pattern with Dean that we are seeing now. Dean was pretty irrelevant in the premier. Cas found the lead on Sam, and Dean got taken down easily by Toni's hench woman. Dean did get nice moment in First Blood but Dabb also made it clear that that Dean broke first. Which is why I don't believe Dabb hasn't noticed.

I thought it was also telling that when asked what Dean was doing, Jensen answer was "Not much, just driving the car." I also remember watching that panel, online If IIRC it was more than half way through before Jensen even spoke or had anything to say. I also remember s7 when Jensen was asked point blank what Dean's story was and he said point blank, "he doesn't have one."

That Jensen prefers Dean being in the thick of action and that he wasn't thrilled with how his character was written in the back half of s8 and he was glad that story was done. He's also said at various conventions he was disappointed that demon Dean ended soon, and wishes they would revisit purgatory. I don't have links but I'm sure they're on youtube.

http://www.screenfad.com/comic-con/supernatural-press-room-comic-con-season-9-spoilers-1937 There is video too.

Also Jensen's reaction to the back half of s8 when asked what was in store for Dean in s9, his answer was "I'm glad I'm not playing guilty cheerleader anymore." Even if Jensen did ask for more time off, it doesn't explain why he's written the way he is. Why he doesn't come up with the plans or have the scenes with the guest stars. The Memory Remains is a good example. They wrote a fight scene for Dean, which he ended up losing. It wouldn't be that taxing on Jensen to let Dean win it. Or let Dean fire the colt. There were two bad guys, they could have each killed one.

Well said.

Dean seems to be asking Sam how to they go about that too. Sam comes up with the idea of thinking like Cas and Dean asks how they do that. I don't mean that in a bitch/jerk way, it was stated on screen

I meant this season.

This episode I fully expect this episode to take the following path..

From the spoiler thread No, but the show certainly making it clear that Dean can't. According to Sam, Dean is supposed to be genius at lore. He's more than capable of researching and figuring it out. The problem isn't Dean doing it all. Its Dean doing nothing at all. Sam takes the leads in all the hunts, Sam comes up with all the ideas, Sam takes the lead in interviewing witnesses, Sam bonds with all the guest stars, Sam gets all the kills and does all the research. Meanwhile, Dean lost every skill he's had. He can't come up with plans or ideas, he's not researching, he's making dumb mistakes and can't even hold onto a weapon. I'm not asking for Dean to do it all, just to do something. I don't buy its for storyline reasons, because there is nothing on screen to indicate it. Even if they add a throw away line its going to feel forced and added only to counter criticism.

Will respond in Bitch Jerk

It looks like he doubled that Valium dose.

This isn't my theory it belongs to @catrox14 ,but thank you :-)

Maybe its more evidence of your Dean's still in isolation theory. Cas says months because he's still searching.

I think Ketch's last episode is 22. Based on the pics and promo and spoilers for upcoming press releases, I think it the next few eps will play out by the numbers. Dean calls Mary. Mary because we're running out of episodes and its time to start her redemption decides to be a mom for once. She goes to Ketch to tell him she needs some personal time and ends up overhearing something she shouldn't, and tries to leave. The code won't let her. She and Ketch fight. Ketch gets the upper hand and takes Mary hostage. Dean is left thinking his mom is ignoring his calls. Episode 21 LadyHorrible, who isn't actually on the outs with the organization shows up to treat Mary like the rogue hunter that she is. They have their face off, Sam and Dean spin their wheels looking for her. Episode 22- I think the bunker is infiltrated by the Brits (which the dangerous situation where they only have each other) and Mary manages to break free and kill Toni and try to get to the bunker. Dean, who faces off with Ketch will probably be losing the fight. At the last minute, when Dean is about to die, Mary who managed not to get lost shows up at just the right time to kill Ketch and save Dean.

I had to look at that photo 3 times before I noticed the tree. LOL

In Bugs, Dean tells Sam, "I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases coming out of your mouth." John was wrong to kick Sam out, but I dont' think all the fault for that fight in just on John .. I think Sam gave as good as he got. An argument can only take place with two people participating. It's reminds me of the argument Sam and Dean had during Scarecrow. Both said hurtful things, so one of them had to reach out and bridge that gap. It was not more on one or the other.

We know this week Dean is going to reach out to Mary and tell her he needs her help. I'm guessing he's stopped calling Cas.

I think this is a moral question that really has no right or wrong answer. There are pros and cons to the way Sam and Dean approach hunting and the way The Brits do it. Sam and Dean have a lot less potential to kill those who doesn't deserve killing. The Brits tend to sit back and wait and take out large groups. But by waiting and watching, you tend to increase the risk of collateral damage. The Brits remind me of that end scene in Die Hard where the FBI are discussing taking out the terrorists and one comments that they would lose 20-25% of the hostages and his partner said "I can live with that." I think in that situation what would be the deciding factor is the guys your taking orders from and their motivation. To use an example, lets say a person wanted to save a forest from being turned into apartment buildings. On their own that person has limited resources so a corporation offers to help by loaning their influence, but they have a long history of sketchy environmental conduct. There is no doubt they can help but I would seriously question why they want too? The Brits don't care who gets caught in their crossfire. They have no problem using torture to get what they want or killing innocent people. The make children kill children. I question their motivation in eliminating all monsters. Why is that their mission? Their actions don't suggest they value human life? It seems for more about wanting to be in control rather than benevolence. That the killing of the monster is the most important thing and saving lives is a perk. (Hopefully, I explained that okay.) It's true Sam and Dean are still hunting for their code but given that they know what happens to those that the Brits deem rogue it only has the potential to go sideways. If Sam and Dean are hunting werewolf and lie about killing them, the Brits are paying attention. They're tracking nests and packs. They're making themselves targets and they should know that. Sam and Dean should also know they won't take kindly to making one of their top men (Mick) question the code. While not always fair, there is guilt by association. The Brits decided that the Winchesters were the key to recruiting others. So if Mick did any recruiting, I have no doubt part of his speech in "The Winchesters are on board." Mick wouldn't be lying, and they wouldn't be adding qualifiers, that they're only taking cases. Other hunters turned them down. So it seems they had a problem with "just taking cases" from them. Whether it is because they prefer to work alone or the felt something sketchy doesn't really matter, they were smart enough to have nothing to do with them.

I should have been more specific, I meant the end the end of The Raid has anyone taken Dean's side or seen his POV? Because this seemed to be Dean's apathy started appearing. Sam sided with Dean initially but then Sam eventually went too Mary and chose the Brits side. Again, not saying he needs Dean's permission or that its wrong for Sam to want to see him mom, but don't lie about it. If Sam suspected Cas was up to something, why didn't he give Dean the heads up and mention this to him? IMO, Dean's family needs to stop doing things to spare his feelings because in the end the all they end up hurting him more.

I don't think its this black and white. Sam and Dean were probably not on good terms when Sam left, so it stands to reason that he (Sam) would not have been receptive if Dean showed up on his door step. It's also possible Dean didn't think he's be welcome, especially if Sam wanted to cut all ties to his old life and that would have included Dean. When Dean asked Sam if Sam would have picked up the phone, Sam didn't confirm or deny but his silence didn't seem to suggest he would have.

I think an in character Dean would have objected or at least made a case why they shouldn't. I even agree they could have gone their separate ways without getting into a fight and neither would have been right or wrong, but show mandate says the brothers can't be separated so there was no other option than Dean caving without a fight. (And I don't mean that in a bitch/jerk kind of way it just is what it is). I'm not sure I'd put Crowley on the same page with the Men of Letters, mostly because he has proven himself to be useful on more than one occasions and whenever the brothers work with him, they know he has an ulterior motive and expect to get stabbed in the back. They very much treat him like the Devil you know. That skepticism is missing with the Brits. Dean clearly is uncomfortable at the start of Ladies Drink Free and tells Sam that he didn't sign up for reporting for duty and just to take cases and Sam's response is to defend the Brits. So to walk away also acts against Dean's prime directive. So there is room for doubt on Dean's feelings because of that need to keep Sam safe. At this point, the biggest problem with the Brits is that there is more than enough evidence to know their sketchy. On the hunt, Mick screws up with Hayden. They give him another chance. Mick screws up and loses Claire they give him another chance. You (general you) could make an argument that Mick is already on his fourth chance. Then they want to kill Eileen for what is no more than a tragic accident.. If that isn't sketchy, I don't know what Sam and Dean are waiting for? The next weeks its just business as usual and not only that their filing reports. I think its mostly down to a writing failure because Dean (and Sam too) should have picked up on this stuff already and it should be a problem . MMV

Since The Raid has anyone taken Dean side of things or really seen his POV?