ILoveReading

This is why, IMO, this whole story line is a bust. "Will Jack go evil?" "He's just a blank slate and could go either way." Yeah, right. Jack is straightfoward and one dimensional like so many new characters these days. There is no suspense to it. If it was any other show I might wonder if Jack is playing the innocent act as a con. But then I tell myself that there is no way Dabb would do that since he's so enmouraed of Jack and painting Sam as the perfect big brother. I admit I laughed when Dean said he'd be the one to kill Jack. Because if Jack has to be put down, I'd lay odds on Sam getting the killing blow. Dean's only allowed to kill stunt demon number 3 these days.

You're welcome :-) To further expand I've always wanted to see an episode where Dean gets to confront his past and some of the things that happened to him, sort of like Devil in the details. Where its not downplayed or used for laughs. (Yellow Fever). I feel like the design of the trials seems better to put Dean's demons to rest. Dean was killed by a hell hound. So it would have been satisfying to watch him get to kill one. Dean was trapped in hell and knows how horrible it was there so it might have helped him to release someone from hell. He carries a lot of guilt from the souls he tortured and since that's how Demon's are created it might have helped Dean release some of it to cure a demon. So even if it was pointless, if Dean got to do the trials I would have enjoyed it from that perspective.

For me it was because it was humiliating to watch Dean being made to literally bathe, feed and beg to take care of Sam. I knew it was just going to end up with Sam resenting it and accusing Dean of treating him like a baby it. If the show can't be bothered to actually give Dean anything else to do it don't make him the villain for actually doing it. I hated Sam's speech in the church because it was basically another version of Fallen Idol (to me) where it mostly came across that Sam letting Dean down pretty much Dean's fault. It made Dean look clingy when he begged Sam to stop the trial, and I knew that the blame would end up on Dean's shoulders and the show wouldn't hold Sam accountable to his own decision to stop. Stopping the trials ended up being completely pointless because Sam was going to die anyway. Then Carver proceeded to throw Dean under the bus. Long, story short. it set Dean up to be the bad guy.

I don't see this as a fall since there was zero negative impact on the character. Sam even took it upon himself to promote himself to leader. Donatello said he felt no evil vibes coming from Jack. If anything he validated Sam's posistion, not Dean's.

The British Men of Letters play Sam like a fiddle. He ends up the leader of the hunting community with everyone gazing at him adoringly. Under Dabb, no way does Sam get set up for a fall. The writing in place last episode makes sure of that, with the deliberate and extremely heavy handed, St. Sammy vs mean Dean. Now if Jack goes bad it won't be because he's the son of Satan, it will be because big bad Dean hurt poor little Jackie's feelings.

There is the fact that writers do it. Perez admitted he gave the kill of the yellow eyed demon in 12.12 to Sam for no other reason then Dean got to kill one. It seems the writers keep track of what Dean does so they can make sure Sam get to do it too. It apparently doesn't go the other way thought because according to Perez's own logic Dean should have gotten the hellhound kill, and Perez even wrote that ep. If the writers do it, then they really can't be surprised if fans do it. IMO, numbers don't always tell the whole story. Take 12.12 for example. Each got a kill but IMO, Dean was still sidelined in that ep, because of all the Michael mentions and not a single mention of Dean's history with him and Sam getting to kill the Michael spear. Not to mention, the writers crapping all over Dean's yellow eyed demon kill. Dean got to kill a Knight of Hell and the yellow eyed demon so the writers made sure to come up with a cheap knockoff just so Sam could do it. IMO, the worst offenders of Sam vs Dean, Bitch vs Jerk is the show itself.

I disagree because Sam and Dean were very much at odds this entire episode. Sam and Dean didn't talk to each other they spent the episode talking at each other. Neither is really listening to what the other had to say. Its when they get like this that apocalypses start.

It seems the writers still view the characters based on the pilot and can't see past Dean's "no chick flick moments" line. IMO, despite the show trying to tell us Dean can't process emotions, because "his wires are crossed" I actually find the relationship between Jack and Dean to be more honest than the one between Jack and Sam. At least Jack knows where he stands with Dean. I'm not saying Dean's handling things perfectly, far from it, but he's upfront with Jack about certain things. Sam isn't being honest with himself about why he keeps defending Jack. What Jack doesn't know, is.... (I'm not sure if this is still considered a spoiler so I'm going to tag it just in case.

Another really stupid line was Sam telling Dean that Jack was afraid of him. WTF? Jack is the most powerful creature in the universe he could end Dean with a snap of his fingers. He may not know exactly how to take Dean but he never once came across as afraid of him.

Neither Sam or Dean's reaction to Jack feels organic. It feels exactly like what it is. Forced melodrama. Sam looks like an idiot because no matter how much you want to believe the fact that Jack is dangerous and has the potential to be evil needs to be discussed. It's making Dean look too rigid and inflexible that he won't even consider that Jack might be good when it has happened in the past. It's not about Dean having "his wires crossed." That makes it sound like Dean's concerns can't possibly be legitimate. I feel like both characters are long past this all or nothing approach. Both characters are coming across as petty since it seems like neither wants to consider the others view point. At least at the end, Dean took the knife out of Jacks hands, and took it out of the room. If he was as jerkish as this ep was trying to make him out he wouldn't have done that. Dean did say "if you go evil I'll try to kill" rather than When. So bless Jensen for trying at least. One thing I find these writers really struggle with is when they have to layer stories and deal with multiple things at once. As expected Dean's grief got pushed to the backgound and basically dismissed. Because it wasn't Dean hated jack, he was struggling because of Loss. That was what I expected Sam to say. Not this BS about Dean getting his wires crossed. *my apologies if this post is to much bitch/jerk. It's not intended to be but since the whole episode was basically one big Sam vs Dean set up its hard to not go there. If its crossed to far over the line, let me know and I'll move my post.

I think at the end, part of Dean wants to believe that Jack can be good but he's not in the right head space because the lose of Cas, Crowley and Mary won't let him have that hope. Jensen is really great with the non verbals and his little pauses and tone seemed to convey this. In his experience good things don't happen to them. So, right now he can't see past this which is coloring his thinking of Jack. This is precisely why I was dreading this storyline. Because I felt they were going to take Dean's legitimate concerns, and that he was wary of Jack because they are dealing with something dangerous and make it about Dean just being a stubborn meany.

I'm over My 3 dads. This doesn't even feel like Supernatural. Please have Jack go evil just so we can get rid of him.

If you value characterization, Id say the whole Lucifer mess is also another good example of Sam getting validation. There was no upside to going into the cage. It's Lucifer who hates humanity. But we get an entire episode telling us how brave and special Sam is. He might have gotten stuck, but he ended up getting a direct confrontation with Lucifer where he basically get to telll him to go F' himself. I'd love something like that for Dean, even if it came from a screw up. But yes we can agree to disagree.

I'd argue that this is exactly what happened when Sam was wrong about the British Men of Letters. Dean called Mary out on her behavior and lying and almost getting Cas killed, but in the end he had to apologize for being mad at Mary not being home to make sandwiches. Then Sam does the exact same thing, and Dean's made to quickly acquiesce to Sam and isn't allowed to maintain his own POV. Despite wanting no part of it, Dean's suddenly reporting for duty and filing reports. Not a single character called Sam out out his lying. Dean wasn't even allowed to be upset or angry about it. Sam's big revelation is that he should have led instead of just followed. Then despite being one of the only hunters being taken in by them no other hunter has an issue following Sam or points out that he got them in that mess in the first place. Instead he gets the big leadership speech while everyone else gazes adoringly. Does it really matter if Sam was wrong about Ruby when he got the big save, and Dean got to apologize and learn to love and accept Sam more. Sam might be wrong but in the end it usually leads to big storylines, or big plot points. So even if he's wrong he still gets validated the majority of the time. Even if Jack goes off the rails, when its time to do whats right, I would be money on Jack being there and saying its all to Sam's guiding light. So, I really wish Dean was as wrong as Sam.

This is how I saw it too

Just curious as to why you think this?

I hope its more along the lines of them realizing they can't take Jack with them and Dean tells Sam that since Sam wanted this he gets babysitting duty. But it wouldn't surprise me if your scenario is what plays out on screen.

Berens as quick to reassure Sam fans so I'm sure something important is going on.

I really dislike the framing in that sneak peek. By having Sam sitting higher and looking down and Sam's condescending remark about Dean's eating looks like its trying to frame Sam somehow superior, like he's so put up by having two teenagers. Just stop it show.

Didn't Billie threaten Dean personally in ep 17. Billie said no she wasn't going to help Dean, but then they got Dean's heart started. I could be wrong since I only watched that ep once.

Actually, it was kind of a joint kill. Sam was drunk and could see the ghost and was telling him where to swing. This is probably the one exception to the rule. I kind of liked the irony that Dean was the sober one here. There was also, Dean's "can you fix it" about the colt to Sam. Plus in an article I read, tag for spoiler Then there was the whole leadership thing last season. Dean's always been the defacto leader. But when its on screen and acknowledged Sam gets to speechify, and everyone including Dean gets to look at Sam adoringly.

This, IMO, was why it was added. The show seems to have trouble with characters calling Sam out on this mistakes with adding some kind of "but its not really his fault in there." Add souless and suddenly the legitmate points Dean was making become invalid and its all anyone focuses on. I always thought that the penny ramped up feelings of hurt or anger. Because I don't believe that one guy who was called out when he was 8 and in little league really harboured a 30 year grudge to want the guy dead. The only way I can explain it, is not telling me you lost your soul was Dean's way of saying he was hurt that Sam didn't tell him he was back for a year, and also that he didn't tell him something was wrong. Sam might not have known he was soulless but he had to know something wasn't right because you can't go a year without sleeping.

I wish we could get an amazing race with 6 top Canadian teams and 6 top American ones and let them battle it out.

I googled shemagh and it looks to be the head scarf Bobby wore in finale

Possible. Or Dean's still punching stuff