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This is why that scene was a failure to me and just another example of why I dont feel like Sam has any respect for Dean. He didn't try to make Dean feel better about himself at all. It was basically "yup. I got this." The dialogue should have said something like, "It it comes down it it Dean, I'll do it but your stronger than you think." Dean had already bested Amara twice by this point so Im not sure why Dean felt he couldn't do anything. Sam's words about not judging Dean, were just words. Because when God and everyone was piling on about Dean not wanting to hurt Amara Sam just sat there and didn't defend Dean.

I wish I could like this more than once. The "therapy" scene had an agenda and it accomplished it in spades. The majority reviews and posts I've read all seem to be be of the "Dean needs to be punched in the throat" for being mean to poor woobie Jack and Sam. Jack doesn't come across as dangerous. The consensus seems to be he's a precious cinnamon roll who needs a hug and some nougat.

This is what has been frustrating to for me since Fallen Idols. Sam doesn't' have flaws. The bad things he does are framed as being bad becasue someone else didn't agree with the action rather than the action itself. Sam lying and going behind Deans' back in 4 wasn't bad because Sam lied and went behind Deans' back it was bad becasue Dean was being bossy and holding one to to tight and it made Sam feel like a little kid. It's "only my fault because you made me do it in the first place." By having Dean apologize and tell himself he needs to let go, it sends a message that yes, this is what happened. If you all Dean to point out that he gave Ruby multiple chances, worked with her and told Sam to keep his secrets and just stop lying, it would highlight that Sam is very much shifting blame. As for Jack, if the show wanted us to see anything bad Jack does as part of his nature, they wouldn't have had Sam get in Dean's face and put the blame on him that its Dean's fault he's messed up. They also wouldn't have the therapist blame Dean for making Jack scared of him. In that scene, the "therapist" (and i use this term losely) doesn't know a thing about Jack, Sam or Dean. Sam starts that session by talking about Dean. You can see Dean's walls go up. But when Dean does this same thing to Sam, Sam gets mad about Dean's relationship with Mary.* Sam can dish it out but he really can't take it. The "therapist" immediately say, Jack is scared of Dean. Sam is the one who had just gotten angry and stormed out. Not knowing anything about their dynamics why wouldn't she immediately put the blame on Dean. How did she know that Jack wasn't scared becasue of Sam's outburst.** *This is what I talked about earlier about the way Sam places blame. Sam but little effort into trying to establish a relationship with Mary. But that wasnt' teh problem, the problem was Mary calling and reaching out to Dean. I'm not saying it would have worked because Mary was the Queen of Ice, but during the early stages, Sam could have called her. **I know that it was Jack that Dean was scared off but the therapist didn't know a single thing about them, so there was no way she should have known that. The argument was strictly between Sam and Dean and she didn't see Jack or Dean interact with each other at that point.

The decision to stop the trials was framed as something Dean made Sam do, and as for the Amara thing apparently that wasn't Dean. It was the power of God. At this point I need the show to actually recognize Dean's accomplishments.

It seems like Yockey has been given the taking too as well about being to Dean friendly. It looks like once again Dean is taken out and needs rescuing. If it plays out like the pics show it will be five for five with Dean needing to be rescued.

I agree. If Dabb had a disdain for Sam, he wouldn't be written like he has been with getting on the majority of the kills and all the big ones, making the majority of the plans, finding most of the cases, bonding with most of guest stars, and being a perfect big brother to sad little muffin Jack. I don't recall Dean ever being this incompetent during hunting before. He can barely hold his own in a fight, drops his gun, he needed to be saved in all four episodes, he repeatedly apologizes and gets nothing in return, repeatedly is made to call himself a dick. (Dabb was the first one that made this reference. He made fans so mad Kripke had to apologize. ) IMO, the way Dean is being written lately isn't how you treat a character your fond of.

Because Dabb sucks and doesn't know how to tell a story that isn't all or nothing and Sam must be the Sainted Enlightened one, of course.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Keeping track of apologies, Sam and Dean would each get a 1 for Scarecrow but Dean talked about how proud he was of Sam and how he admired him for going his own way and standing up to their dad. Sam's apology consists of "ditto" I also wouldn't credit Sam with an apology for either Sacrifice or Fallen Idols because the wording came across very much as its only my fault becasue you made me do it in the first place. Both of which lead to Dean apologizing to Sam when he shouldn't have too.

I think this why Jensen loved Demon Dean so much. Because he was care free and not brooding or bogged down with the weight of the world on his shoulders. I think it was very freeing for Jensen to play a character with a devil may care attitude. I do remember Jensen talking about how season 9 was really hard for him to film. He said Deans' headspace was so dark he couldn't shake it off and he was taking it home with him. It was why he wanted to do the fight scene in First Born to work off some of it. He said it got to the point where he recognized he was redlining and asked for a lighter shooting schedule for one ep. \× So I imagine he probably wasn't thrilled at yet other Dean is depressed story. Especially one with no real emotional payoff. He just has to make his character swallow it down again. So good point it might have been part some frustration on Jensen's part. Given the multiple suck it up, your feelings bother me attitude Dean gets most of the time, it really is no wonder Dean was the way he was in The End.

I don't think the writing is great for Cas by any means. It's never bothered me when the characters do stupid or controversial things if it makes a good storyline. I spent the entire episode of First Born hoping Dean would some how take on the mark. I didn't think for one minute think anything good would happen to Dean because of it, I just want to be entertained. So Cas letting out Lucifer was dumb, sure but as I said it did give Misha some material to play with. I was kind of neutral on the storyline. I thought Misha did a nice job but I was so over lucifer at that point. I a friendly with a big Misha fan and she really liked the story because she felt it really gave Misha a chance to stretch his wings. I think the writing is terrible all around, so I do agree that Cas making a deal is something I wish they weren't doing. But where I'm feeling the bitterness is that at least Cas has something coming up. The Jack storyline is much more Sam centric and something Jared commented on being excited for. There are spoilers for Mary, Lucifer, and Asmodeus. The only character no one is really talking about is Dean. So at this point I would even take a storyline about making a deal. *I'm not sure if i should have put this is Bitch vs Jerk but since it does contain spoilers I thought I would chance putting her. Mods if I have it in the wrong thread please let me know and I move it.

http://deanmaniac.tumblr.com/post/167210272899/the-ultra-scientific-study-of-winchester-wall I thought this was interesting for those keeping statistics. It does seem like Dean is the favored punching bag, with a few exceptions. The difference is really glaring in s5 and 11

I think we're getting out signal's crossed. My post was meant strictly to address the line about Dean saying he was in charge. I don't think he ever was as far as Sam was concerned.. Not to do with whether he was still angry. I think we are discussing two different things. As for Sam's anger, I do think we saw it flair up in Alex Annie Alexis Ann. They were pretty snippy with each other.

I never said it was done in anger. My point was was that Sam didn't listen when Dean said he was in charge. If Sam had listened he would have stayed back and knocking him out wouldn't have been necessary.

After Dean said he was in charge, Gadreel showed up and Dean attacked him. Cas and Sam restrained him and then locked him up. Dean escaped and went off with Crowley. Sam caught up with him. Dean knocked him out to keep him out the final fight. Talk is cheap. Dean might have said he was in charge but nothing really came of it.

We'll have to agree to disagree becasue I do think getting disowned, and called a selfish coward by your own brother is getting called out. The reason doesn't matter, because I feel like Sam got to hang on to his anger at Dean. He did right up until the moment Dean was killed.

And he got his own way. Dean tried to walk away but Cas went and got Sam and told Dean they needed him. Nobody called out Sam's behavior about a single thing he did during citizen fang. Including leaving his brother handcuffed to a radiator or putting Martin on Benny in the first place. I really don't see how this is a detriment to Sam's character.

I'm guessing Dean isn't going to get the equivalent of the trials story. He'll be immediately made to apologize to Mary, (and mostly likely to Cas for not making a deal). It won't take 3 years for Dean to issue a half hearted apology that Michael has to guilt him into. Did I mention Dabb is the worst thing to happen to this show?

One thing Misha is getting is material to work with. Even if it really not good writing. At least the writers gave him something to do by allowing him to play the entity in The Empty, and now Jack's surrogate father, and Dabb was quick to reassure that Misha had a story that will last all season. I'd take what Misha is getting right now for Dean because anything beats this valium/doormat/ version they've been giving us for the last 3 seasons. At this point I'd even take them having Dean snap and become a full on big bad.

I miss Raelle Tucker so much. I feel like she was one of the only writers who understood Dean. She made it clear that that the negative things in Dean's head came from the fact that it's Dean's negative self image rather then him actually being a jerk or a dick. I am so glad these current batch of writers didn't write that ep. @Myrelle I love your analysis of this ep.

Of course none of us knows what goes on behind the scenes but given the general overall bitterness in Mark;s tweets I dont' get the feeling that leaving was entirely Mark's decision. This I believe is a big part of the reason why they stay. They like the work environment on set, job security, and a cast and crew they consider family.

Dean literally lost hope because he lost Cas. That doesn't sound like not caring about someone to me. Committing suicide or throwing your life away from somone isn't a sign you care about them. It's a sign you dont' care about yourself. Didn't Cas lie and betray Dean 3 times in one ep. Cas isn't perfect either. Dean also spent most of s11 and 12 fretting and worrying over Cas. He spent more time doing that then he did worrying about Sam. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. on this issue

This might belong in the unpopular opinion thread more, but I've never thought Dean making deals for Sam has to do with him caring about Sam more than Cas. Dean was brainwashed from the age of four that he's responsible for Sam. Dean has never really made a deal for anyone other then Sam. Not, Mary, John, Bobby, Charlie, Kevin, Benny or Cas. There was one half hearted attempt for Adam, but that was really only because he was in the same place as Sam. There may be something I'm not remembering, So in reality Dean is not a deal person unless it involves Sam. The person he was made responsible for. I don't think the situations really are the Sam. Dean didn't raise Cas and didn't have the burden of making sure Cas stayed safe put on his shoulders. Dean never said he can't live without Sam, he can't live with him dead. I think there is a difference.

Brought over from the spoiler thread. Isn't one of the biggest criticism's against Dean is that he doesn't respect other people boundaries and needs to stop making deals and the show makes him learn multiple lessons about letting go. When he does make a deal it's selfish and clingy and he deserved what Sam said in the Purge because Dean does it for himself and not others. Cas's body was right in front of him without burnt out wings. Dean begged God to bring him back, and when told Jack could do anything his mind immediately went to Cas. So its not like Dean just wrote him off. So now he's trying to do just that and he still wrong. He really has to be the most damned if he does and damned if he doesn't character. It doesn't bother me that Dean didn't make a deal because I never liked he when he did it for Sam.

Will respond in Bitch/Jerk

Nope. Because Dabb can't even talk about Dean. Nothing about Dean was mentioned at comic con, and whenever Dabb say's "The Winchesters" he clearly means Sam. Although I wouldnt' be surprised if Jack does something sketchy and Dean defends him and Sam questions him, so that if one the remote chance Jack goes evil Sam still ends up on the right side.