Wynne88

This is a comment by @ILoveReading from the "Optimism" episode thread, but it reminded me of something I was thinking about while watching this episode. In thinking about this group of hunters, I still am wondering what happened to that gang of little children in the AU hunters' camp, the ones that were enjoying Jack's shadow puppets. Not that I am particularly interested in getting to know all the hunters as individuals either, but it is very blatant to me how the group of AU hunters that Mary and Jack were living with over in the AU, the ones that Mary was so attached to that she couldn't leave them behind, have morphed into an entirely different group of people now. No families, no children, no older people other than Bobby. Remember when Dean and Sam were trying to convince the hunters to come back with them, how they made their case before 2 or 3 of their leaders, who were all skeptical, grizzled, hard-bitten war veterans? I hadn't even noticed this, but you are absolutely correct. This is one of many instances where the writers/show runner don't seem to feel the need to explain some pretty major things.

I liked the humor. The 'Stayin Alive' song was perfect. It was fun watching Dean's reaction when Jack would say ridiculous things - it reminded me a lot of when he first took Castiel hunting and Cas held his badge upside down. I even liked the little stuff, like while the waitress was saying that sometimes there was sex without courting, and Dean gave the glass rooster (aka cockerel) a look and pointedly turned it away. Although I'll always prefer the brothers hunting together, I thought that given how much Jack and Dean have in common at the moment in terms of guilt over Michael, it was good to have them spend some time together. Hopefully it helped them both. Sam and Charlie's case had too much sitting and talking, and although I liked Sam messing with the fidget thing and his line about having read all the books, their part of the episode just didn't do a lot for me. For what it's worth, I didn't see Dean asking Sam for permission to go on the hunt. It seemed to me that he was simply telling Sam that they were going, which was considerate. Sam suggested someone else could take it, but never told him 'no'. (Nor do I think Dean would have listened if he had.) There's a lot of dislike of Sam's role as 'Chief', and I agree that it's not a good fit. But while other characters have mentioned how great he is (ad nauseam), I don't see Sam bragging about it. He has implemented some common sense things, but he knows he has also made big mistakes.

Nobody in their right mind would have let someone like Maggie go out on their first hunt alone. And that's not the only reason that I agree that leadership isn't Sam's thing. He would make a good teacher, or logistician, or researcher, but shoe-horning his character into a leadership role leaves me bored. It's like the writers are coloring by number, and Jared can't do anything to bring it to life. I hate having all those people in the bunker. I'd feel the same way if a bunch of strangers invaded my home. Guess they need somebody for the souped up monsters to kill. How did that knife not kill Bobby? Not only in terms of placement, but his whole weight was hanging on it. Pity. I personally don't like all the best characters that they've killed off in the past showing up again. I cared about them in their original persona's, but it would be a lot easier to develop an interest in a new character than have to try to keep remembering that a character who looks just like a previous edition is actually somebody else. Despite my gripes, there were parts I enjoyed and I thought the casting of the daughter and nurse was excellent.

I liked it. I liked that Sam found a case that was right up Dean's alley to get him to re-engage, and I loved how much fun Dean had with it. It's neat to watch him interacting with strangers who share his own interests and enthusiasm. I do kind of wonder how Sam knew to go to the morgue instead of the hurt guy's hospital room, but I can handwave it.

Especially since some of the pre-premiere buzz was about how the AU people wanted to kill Michael outright, and Sam needed to convince them that they needed to keep Dean alive. The only person I saw actually talk about killing him was Jack.

I think that a lot of the plot lines are driven by the J's availability. As they've cut back on the number of hours they're willing to work, Dabb has to fill in the space with other people and their stories. If they connect at all with the Winchester's, he's probably done as well as he is capable of.

I just took it that he was too tired to care. As far as having everybody out looking, exactly where should they look? I can see your point, though.

For the premiere of the 14th season of a show, I thought it was pretty good. There were some continuity issues, like the magic egg, but at this point I've grown to expect them. I thought Jared did a really good job with Sam, both with the emotional beats as well as stepping up to take charge. Who else is there to do it? The bit about no more king of hell seemed a bit of a reach, but I liked his delivery of the line anyway. Jensen did a fine job with Michael, especially in the first scene. He can do so much with just a tilt of his head or a flick of his eyes. I'm really not convinced that they've actually come up with a viable storyline for the character which worries me a lot. Jensen in this role is too good to waste on crap. I was very glad the wanna-be King of hell got killed off the first episode, instead of dragging on like Colonel Sanders last year. Sincerely dislike Mary. I was really hoping that Dabb would take note of how many people disliked that she and Bobby were making goo-goo eyes at each other at the end of last season, and not follow through, but I think he is going there anyway.

I've got to agree with this. Perhaps if everybody's focus is on saving Dean this season, there will be fewer individual storylines, but I guess we already know of at least two - Mary and Bobby's romance which pretty much ranks at the bottom on my 'want-to-see' chart, and Jack adjusting to the lack of his power.

Maybe just for the first episode or two, until Jody comes and scolds him for not taking care of himself and hands him a razor. I wonder, what happens if you dreamwalk a person who is possessed? Do you interact with the mind or the meatsuit? That might be another way it could go.

I've also been gone, and just watched the episode today for the first time. In my honest opinion, I thought it was one of the worst executed finales they've ever done. I really liked the basic concept of Jensen finally getting to play Michael and I hope it plays out well next season, but there was just so much stuff in this episode that left me shaking my head and asking 'why?', not to mention the terrible special effects and the cheesy music when Dean/Michael first revealed his wings. This show, these actors, and all the fans deserve better than this. I wish I thought next year would be better.

I thought Dabb said that Jensen would be playing a character we hadn't seen for several seasons? As I recall, he said that well after AU Michael's first appearance.

I was wondering this too as we watched them celebrate in the bunker and Bobby make the speech about going back to save their people. I didn't personally think that either Sam or Dean seemed too concerned about it, but it's obvious that they haven't shared the news with Bobby that they left behind an important ingredient for the spell. We know that Michael is presumably an option, but at this point, it's not one that has occurred to any of them. I also wondered when Dean that that Sam had taken care of Lucifer - does he know that he didn't actually kill him?

I should go into all episodes with really low expectations for enjoyment; there's nowhere to go but up. For the most part, looking at it as a whole, I actually kind of enjoyed it. Plenty to nit-pick, of course. In addition to what others have already pointed out, I did wonder why Bobby only welcomed Dean and Sam into his 'family'. What's Cas, chopped liver? I get that the showrunners got hammered for killing Charlie, but making AU Charlie a clone of the original isn't cool. They've basically duplicated Bobby too.

Absolutely agree with this.

If Gabriel used up all his remaining grace on the spell, how was he able to shape-shift and pop from one place to another in the bar? In the Spoilers thread I commented that despite Sam Smith's interview, I didn't think the group would be Sam Winchester's merry gang, but there were several places in the early part of the journey where he took the lead where Dean normally would, and Dean just nodded his head in the background. I personally find it weird for Dean to take a step back at times like that without any reason; it's like the writers are just trying to make sure Sam gets some big damn hero moments before they kill him, maybe to make up for when he gives in to Lucifer a little later. (Although I do agree that refusing wouldn't have accomplished anything.)

I sure don't see the group as 'Sam Winchester's band of merry men', and I doubt he does either. Can somebody refresh my memory as to just why Michael wants to kill everybody in our universe?

Why? Dean is the perfect vessel in our world, but since he doesn't exist in the other one, I would assume someone else would fit the bill there - perhaps the vessel AU Michael is currently possessing. And an army is a pretty big advantage.

Michael has supposedly gone crazy in the cage, from my vague memories of what Lucifer said. Is he sane enough to possess someone and still function? Or is there an off-the-rails Archangel hanging around in the cage with power but no sense?

Although Jensen is dressed like someone from the '20s, the lady walking in front of him carrying the bag is wearing jeans. Assuming she is in the scene, then I'm guessing the time period isn't that far back.

Metatron recognized Gadreel right away. So did the friend he had been imprisoned with (and then killed). So I have to assume that Castiel would have recognized him as well if he had actually met him before he killed Kevin.

Isn't that the truth? And to think that Lucifer used to convey enough menace that it was reasonable to think that being stuck with him in the cage would be truly hellish. I wonder when Sam got his tattoo back?

As much as I didn't like the writing in this episode, I did think Jensen did a super job.

Agreed. Cliched 'empathic Sam', regardless of why on earth he would be in this case. And also agree with the poster above who compared tough guy Dean to tough guy Sam in Red Meat. Both were way over the top as far as I'm concerned.

I'll watch it again, but my first feeling is one of annoyance. They took every Dean trait and magnified it til he became practically a caricature of himself. Big damn tough guy, can't be stopped by a bullet, even one that's poisoned - and thanks to Ketch for underlining just how tough he was. Then instead of using his 24 hours to find his mother and Jack, who are family (and important Nephilim), he goes after AU Charlie instead - even though she has no connection to the Charlie that was supposedly just like his little sister. He knows he's got very limited time, rescuing his Mom and Jack was supposedly what has been driving his engine all season . . . and he takes a detour? Then comes back and throws an absolute hissy fit? I pretty much agree with BoxManLocke on the above. I think Sam and Cas felt like they were being blamed, unless they were just really embarrassed by the temper tantrum.