Vaysh

This, right here, makes me so furiously angry it brings tears to my eyes. What an utter, utter shit move to not only blame the victim for their abuse but then turn around and put all the responsibility of forgiving the abuser on their shoulders as well. Forgiveness is a gift that should be given willingly and without external pressure; it is an internal process that can take a long long time, and if it never comes that's perfectly fine too as sometimes things just can't be forgiven. I know forgiveness is a big deal in Christianity, and I do think that being able to let go of grudges and painful memories and forgive those who wronged us can be a relief and a way of moving on with your life, but this idea of public insta-forgiveness or you're a bad Christian just rubs me the wrong way. It seems more for the benefit of the perpetrator and the patriarchal power structure than for the victim.

And that makes perfect sense using their twisted logic of suppression and denial. To me it would actually make more sense to nurture close natural sibling relationships between brothers and sisters. Not only will there be a personal connection where they see each other as actual people, not just body parts or a different gender to be curious about, but from what I understand the more time spent growing up close together the less attracted people will be to each other. There's a fancy name for it that I can't recall at the moment but the opposite would be GSA where people get attracted to siblings or parents after having been separated from them their whole lives. ETA: It's called The Westermarck Effect

Edit: Nevermind, others made the point better. :)

I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for him; what he did was disgusting and wrong in every way and every time I see his fat smug face right now I want to kick him in the teeth, both for what he did to his sisters and for being a sanctimonious little hypocrite. But nothing happens in a vacuum and I think that his upbringing and his parents' twisted views on sexuality definitely played a part in what went on. They belong to a cult created by a man who is himself a sexual abuser (as is his brother). They have close ties to Vision Forum whose creator and leader also turned out to be a sexual abuser. Of course there are plenty of people who are sexual predators without belonging to a cult but the patriarchal movement seems like the perfect breeding ground for molesters and abusers of all kinds because despite all their big talk about accountability, there is no real sense of personal responsibility when it comes to men's sexual crimes against women and children. Their ideology preaches an extreme suppression of sexuality, but they also appear to easily forgive and forget if the (male) perpetrator shows a sufficient level of public remorse and repentance, heartfelt or not. There is also strong pressure put on the victims to forgive and forget without any fuss or else they are being un-Christian and "bitter". Add a healthy dollop of victim blaming à la Gothard and what do you get? A boy who gets caught molesting his sisters, gets away with a public confession and a slap on the wrist, only to do it again and again. And why not? He learned right away that getting caught brought no real consequences aside from a little public humiliation, and his sexual urges were clearly stronger than his wish to avoid that. From Josh's statement it sounds like he stopped because he realised it would cause him harm in the long run (ruined reputation, eternal hellfire...), not because he had much thought for his victims. Again, completely inexcusable actions on Josh's part put I put the main blame on Jim Bob and Michelle and their horrible life choices.

The whole thing sounds strange (the reporting officer got arrested for child porn?), but would a magazine no matter how sleazy, publish something as serious as an accusation of underage sex abuse if they weren't sure they could get away with it? I mean, Catgate or Gungate yes, those got people up in arms but this is HUGE. If they have no hard evidence they could easily get sued for libel and rightly so. As for Jim Bob turning his own son in, I'm in two minds. If Josh really did something truly 'inappropriate' with an underage girl then I applaud JB for it, these things get swept under the rug far too often. However, considering how warped this family's ideas about pre-marital sex are, who knows what really happened. Josh was underage (or a minor at least) at the time of the alleged abuse, maybe he just sneaked in and made out with his girlfriend and JB freaked out and decided to teach him a lesson without considering the long-term consequences. I dislike this family in many ways but I genuinely hope this article isn't true. As for Josh's career in conservative politics, I think it just died, true story or not.

I think she's both shy and introverted! ;) She seems incredibly uncomfortable on camera and doesn't seem to speak much unless spoken to, which I tend to attribute to shyness. If you're self-conscious and feel awkward, you probably don't want this displayed on television. Like CarolMK said, both Jana and John David come across as introverts and the idea of being an introvert and not be allowed any privacy or alone time ever sounds like hell on earth (I'm one myself and while I love spending time with my family as well as relatives and friends, it can be both mentally and physically draining). Now, imagine living in a house where alone time is not only hard to come by but actively discouraged as something bad and wrong that could send you to hell. Yikes. I'd be grumpy as fuck. Constantly. It's interesting that one of her sisters (can't recall who it was, but I think it was in one of the Jill episodes last year) described Jana as reserved, even at home. It had me thinking that perhaps she's trying to create a private space within herself where she can think and get away from the hustle and bustle of her environment, and that this comes across as reserved to the rest of her, mostly extroverted, family. I know I can "shut off" a bit when overwhelmed or tired from too much socialising and apparently that makes some people read me as aloof or reserved, when I'm really just exhausted and want to go home and read a book. As an introvert you also tend to spend a lot of time inside your own head rather than communicating with the outside world and that too can come across as reserved. I actually like the idea of Grumpy Jana. Like, "fine I'll be on your stupid show and I'll alter your stupid bridesmaid dresses and I'll sing the stupid Blood song to screeching violins but I will not like it and you can't make me". I doubt it is true but it would be pretty awesome if behind the cameras she's doing her job but is refusing to keep sweet about it.

Does anyone one know what Joseph is studying? Has it been mentioned on the show that he is in college or do they treat his abscence like they did Josiah's year-long stay at ALERT? With complete silence...

I've noticed that both Bin and Derrick are now sporting Jim Boob-style mops so I can only surmise that a) they let their wives cut and style their hair and b) the Duggar girls apparently think that Lego Head is an attractive look on men, probably because that's the look Daddy's been rocking all their lives.

Taken in her old girls' room... OT, but I really hope that nook is Jana's now. She deserves at least a little bit of privacy.

Well to be fair, John David's got a pilot's license which, if I understand it correctly, is quite difficult to obtain (at least I hope it's quite difficult to obtain!). I wonder why Jessa pursued a proper HS diploma when none of the other kids did. I can't really see her parents pushing for one, so she would've had to come to the decision herself and then made the effort of doing extra course work and testing. ETA: Is Joseph attending Clown College now or was that just a rumour?

Let's hope he keeps going and transfers to a real college (as in not some unaccredited fundie version of college). I'm actually quite impressed by Bin right now because judging from his Talking Heads it would appear he's got the IQ of a seagull, but if he managed to graduate from Community College he's got to have at least some brains, as well as self discipline if he was doing most of his course work online. I've done both online and regular college courses and the former is IMO a lot harder. ...possibly because I'm an epic procrastinator and easily distracted by shiny things.

I can't speak for anyone else but a monetary donation towards a specific cause, say a renovation or an outreach program or filling up the pantry or linen cupboard and then encouraging others to do the same, would not have looked like bragging to me, that would've looked like they genuinely wanted to help. The problem is that the Duggars we see on the show have a history of talking big about charity but not actually doing much except handing out cookies, candy and bibles (and of course gracing the unfortunate with their presence). The teddy bear rather confirmed that image.

I think the main issue here is that Josh and Anna made a big song and dance about donating a giant bloody teddy bear that they won, but nothing that would put them out in any way or be actually useful (at least from what we saw on the show). If Josh simply hadn't gone to that place, hadn't donated a stupid toy, had kept his mouth shut and hadn't been showing off his big ole' charitable self on television, no one would have slung any shit what so ever. Instead he did go to that place, donated something that is ultimately useless and drew attention to himself and his "good deed" in order to look like a generous and charitable Christian (while really being nothing of the sort). At least for me, the shit flinging is about Josh acting like a Pharisee and worse, blowing his horn so that everyone can see how good he is without actually doing anything good. As for the rest. If people need help, you help them. If parent's are not capable of helping their babies, you help them help their babies. It's not about minimizing responsibility or shafting or whatever. Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes with serious consequences, that doesn't mean that it's alright to abandon them with a shrug and a "you should've known better". I also have a strong feeling that many of those mothers-to-be wouldn't even be in that home if they had had better access to a decent sex education in school, affordable contraception or abortion without religious guilt-mongering. All those things that Josh and his ilk wants to ban entirely without paying for the consequences. ...So actually I kinda do think that Josh is obligated to donate to homes like that, morally obligated if nothing else. You want to ban abortion and ban or severely limit access to contraception while at the same time cutting down on government social programs? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up.

I don't really find it all that baffling; I think you actually answered this conundrum yourself in your first paragraph. Jana may be good at any and all of these things but she never really got to chose for herself if she wanted to do them in the first place. She learned to sew because her family couldn't afford to buy clothes, she's good with kids because her parents decided to have a million of them and then foist them off on her, she's a doula because Jill wanted to be a midwife and needed a chaperone. It seems Jana has been forced, guilted or cajoled into most of her daily occupations and skills and if I was her I'd resent the hell out of that even if those skills were something I was natually good at and might've actually enjoyed in different circumstances. Necessity rather than choice combined with being taken for granted can take the joy and fun out of anything, I think.

I've been thinking about this for a while now, a question for those of you with insight into fundiedom and their general attitudes: Between Josh's job and Michelle's robocall I think it's safe to say that the Duggars (and from what I gather, most fundamentalists) aren't too keen on gay people, transexuals or anyone not fitting into the straight/cis/gender-stereotypical group of people they all seem to exclusively fellowship with. Any attempt to point out that if God created everything then he must've created gay and trans people as well is shot down because God doesn't make mistakes and anything outside of their comfort zone must be a mistake. Gay people are gay by choice (let's pray away that gay!) and transexuals are sexual predators pretending to be women in order to get inside public loos and molest children. So what about people who are intersex? People who are biologically both male and female, either born with the genitals of both sexes or who develop the genitals/breasts of the "opposite" sex during puberty. How do intersex people (or hermaphrodites if you will) fit into the fundie worldview? ETA: haha, I just saw that this subject was brought up on the Anna's Having A... thread as well. Great minds think alike... ;)

I truly hope he is living on his own. A 25-year old man sharing quarters with pre-teen siblings is everything and all between sad and creepy. I hope even Jim Boob realises this.

I think that depends on what she'd say on social media and how she would say it. Right now Jana is such a blank page, we don't really know anything about her true beliefs and opinions, though since she's pretty much only been exposed to the ideology of Christian fundamentalist patriarchy we probably have to assume that her views are just as batshit as the rest of her family's, she just doesn't talk about them much. If she started spouting off on the evils of abortion, gays and Catholics on social media I'm sure she would get snarked on just as much as her sisters.

Hey, let's be fair! She did heat up those "protein-rich" instant noodles in a crock-pot that one time when all the J'Slaves were out of the house. (Seriously, how can you bring 19 human beings into this world and not even read up on the absolute basics of nutrition?)

But isn't that a bit like saying that everyone is the same; have the same history, responsibilities and interpersonal relationships, the same personalities, intelligence, characters, levels of courage etc etc? Just because some people have the capability of removing themselves from a similar situation, does that mean that everyone does? If some women can leave their abusive husbands does that mean that all women should be able to, no matter their circumstances? (I'm not saying Jim Bob and Michelle are physically harming Jana, of course). Forgive me for being a bit prejudiced but this sounds a lot like the myth of The American Dream - some people came from nothing and became successful millionaires so therefore everyone should be able to do the same and if you can't it's entirely your own fault, sucks to be you. I'm not even sure we can compare Jana's situation to anyone else's because aside from the Bateses who have an entirely different parenting style than the Duggars, there are no other Gothardites living in the spotlight and I'm sure that being in the public eye affects all of the Duggar kids' behaviour and life choices quite a bit. Haha, I'm becoming quite the Jana apologist here and I'm not even sure why. I don't think it's the "pretty"; I find her sweet looking but rather plain, but I guess it could be the fact that she seems generally downtrodden and taken advantage of by parents who are so obviously selfish and irresponsible.

Well, fortunately for the divorced and widowed mothers in the world, your opinion clearly isn't shared by all men. ;) I agree that a divorced woman would be a giant NO to marry in Duggarland, mainly because divorce carries such a social stigma in their world. However, in cases of divorce, the biological other parent is usually (not always, I know) still involved with their kids to some degree (shared custody, visitation rights, child support etc) so it's not like JD would be considered the father, the kids would still have a dad with a dad's financial responsibilities. And if he were to marry a widow, I really don't see how taking care of a dead man's child(ren) would make him pathetic or feel used; it's not like he wouldn't be aware of the kids' existance before going in. YMMV of course. I can't speak for anyone else but personally I don't assume much of anything about Jana, she's a bit of a mystery. From what I have seen and from what I know about her past and present life and responsibilities I do feel tremendous sympathy and pity for her. I don't know if she's smart (considering the average Duggar level of intelligence I'd say the odds are not in her favour) but I do find her just a little bit awesome. Because from what I've seen and read, Jana is the centre of that family in terms of caretaking and child-rearing and has been growing into that role ever since she was a little girl herself. She's not sparkly or assertive like Jessa or Jill, but she endures her responsibilities and a life on a stage not of her own choosing, despite perhaps not having the personality for that kind of life and apparently without much of a reward to look forward to. I think that she is stuck in a situation that doesn't suit her (a high level of responsibility in a very public setting) and that she lacks the means and possibly the personality and drive to find any escape route that would be more suitable for her. And that is a terrible situation for anyone to be in, so whether Jana is smart and awesome or not, I can't help but feel compassion for her.

Is Jessa's skin looking better in that burger joint photo than it has in a long time or is it due to some clever filtering? Going by her nose it doesn't look like she's wearing her usual pancake makeup.

I just watched the let's-find-the-crib scene in the kitchen and... ok, I know we snark and poke fun and mock Michelle all the time and with good reason, but this scene I actually found disturbing for real. Not just because she is acting so strange with her bug-eyes and overly dramatic baby-speech (Wouldn't that be so SPECIAL, AAAAHW?)" but because of how Jim Bob and Josie react to her. They both look so incredibly uncomfortable, especially Jim Bob and to me it looks like they both realise that this is not normal behaviour.

To my secret (ok, not so secret) shame, I have to confess that I actually love Erin's boppy curls! Yes, they are slightly odd and anachronistic and overly styled, but they suit her (and look kinda cute if you disregard the fact that we live in the 21st century). She's actually found a style that is genuinely her, not Gothard, not fundie-bland, not contemporary fashion victim, but something original to her own tastes and preferences and I kinda love that. Especially after seeing the Duggars' one-look-fits-all attitude to stringy hair and ratty clothes. Erin may look like a slightly demented Nellie Oleson, but she does it with confidence and flair. :)

Not necessarily. Speaking from my own experience, I have been told that I was extremely outgoing, chatty, confident and friendly with people (including perfect strangers) as a very young child. I was also quite stubborn and knew my own mind. However, due to things happening over the course of my childhood I became increasingly more reserved, shy, passive and insecure. I'm not exactly shy anymore but I am reserved and can be quiet around people I don't know and I don't think I've ever recovered fully that confidence I had when I was really little. I think it's perfectly plausible that Jana was "spirited" as they put it, but that they actively set about to change that because in Gothard World girls and women aren't supposed to be spirited, they are supposed to be meek, submissive helpmeets because Jesus.

But on the other hand the boys have to confess all their impure thoughts and actions to Daddy (and I doubt they would get away with claiming they don't have any) which must be a huge deterrent to wanking, like constantly having your dad looking over your shoulder. I'd take a photo on the wall over that any day. Ugh. I can't imagine living a life where your parents insist on knowing every single thing that goes on in your mind, especially sexual thoughts and feelings. So gross.