Vaysh

I thought Jessa was paying for all the dresses? And Jill payed for her bridesmaids dresses also (as well as the extra one they used to make the others more modest) if I recall correctly. Or at least Boob payed... From the way things are playing out on the show it looks to me that each got a sum of money from Jim Bob to use for the wedding and Jill spent most of hers ON the wedding, while Jessa is trying to get away with using as little as possible and spend the rest of the money on her Paris honeymoon (or save it maybe if TLC payed for the honeymoon).

Am I the only one who find the idea of serving ice cream, outdoors, in November to be a little... peculiar? From what I've seen on the show Jessa is going for Cheapest Wedding Possible which, fair enough, but why ice cream? If she wanted something sweet to go with the classy hot dogs couldn't she have picked something that wouldn't give her guests hypothermia?

I'd say that morality still exists in most families, but I'm not sure I agree that it exists to any great extent in the Duggar clan. Following made-up, arbitrary rules like Gothard's "Character Qualities" does not equal morality to me. In fact, the thing that annoys me the most about the Duggars is that they try to make themselves out to be so good and godly and morally superior but when you scrape the surface they are not only immoral in "worldy" ways (neglecting their children's education, blanket training, child labour, and indoctrinating their daughters into believing they are only good for housework and child bearing), they also come across as immoral in a Christian sense (and I'm saying this as an atheist!). To me they are people who will strain out a gnat and swallow a camel; they prattle on endlessly about that inch of cloth that will keep them modest, they preen about how the daughters can't even hold hands with their boyfriends at prayer without being engaged. While at the same time acting hateful and judgemental towards people who are not exactly like themselves and stumping for politicians who crusade not only against GLBT persons and women but also against the very poor and sick that Jesus said we should help. That, combined with their very performative version of Christianity (I seem to recall that Jesus had a few choice words to say about people praying on street corners and announcing their charity with trumpets; I wonder if the Duggars have ever had "Bible study" on Matthew 6...) they look more like Pharisees and hypocrites to me than genuinely moral Christians. YMMV.

I'd say both those things are true and very much intertwined. It takes a certain type of personality to dive into a cult like Gothardism with such apparent gusto as Boob has. He comes across as a person who has an almost pathological need to control everything, including his relationships with other people, and the patriarchal mess that is Gothardism not only allows him but encourages him to do so. The scene I mentioned above definitely reflects the ideas and ideals of Christian Patriarchy (daughters should never question their father's authority, especially not in public), but I doubt Jim Bob would've joined up with that ideology if he'd had a less controlling and more generous personality. Gothardism clearly fulfilled some kind of need in Jim Bob and I think that over the years it has exacerbated the more unpleasant aspects of his personality. The control issues and self-centeredness were probably there from the start, but where most people out in the real world get negative reactions when acting out such issues, Jim Bob has spent the past thirty years in an environment where controlling one's family is considered a virtue and where he is the undisputed ruler of his household. By God's command, no less! By now he probably feels wholly entitled to submission and constant deference from his wife and children, especially the girls, and that's why he gets into a snit when questioned by one of them and I think that's why he appears to favour the Stepford daughters over the more "uppity" ones like Jessa. I'm sure he loves them all in his own way, but that love is always on his terms and seems dependent on how the girls behave towards him.

I'm not sure I agree Jim Bob is "nicer" or all that normal a person, his massive control issues alone make him seem just as batshit as Michelle at times. I do think that he is better at connecting with his children than Michelle is (which isn't all that difficult after all), or at least at connecting with his daughters. With the sons there appears to be some sort of weird competitive relationship going on, especially once the boys reach puberty. I haven't watched all episodes, but I don't recall that many scenes where Jim Bob interacts with his sons unless he is competing against them in some capacity. I could be wrong but he seems a lot more stand-offish with the boys than the girls. And with the girls he's clearly playing favourites, giving more affection and attention to those who fawn over him and never disagree with his headship. For example, I remember a scene where Boob, Jill and Jana were in some tourist shop (in South America somewhere I think) looking for a gift for Mechelle and Boob reveals his grand plan of buying a native dress, looking mighty pleased with himself. Jana then very meekly suggests that maybe they should be getting Michelle something more practical that she could actually use, and wow are the short seconds after extremely telling. Boob looks fantastically pissy and turns away, basically shutting her out, Jana looks upset and resigned like she knows she made a mistake in questioning him, Jill on the other hand immediately steps in and smooths things over by diverting attention to herself; she also clearly knows Jana made a big faux pas. That short scene really stood out to me because it, along with other things Jim Bob says and does, implies to me that his love and affection towards his kids is very much conditional. He is closer to and more affectionate towards his children than Michelle is, but the relationships he has with them must always be on his terms and I think he sees and values his kids mainly in conjunction to himself, not as individuals in their own right.

However, Jill has been brainwashed her whole life into believing that a woman's sole purpose in life is to get married and have however many children god gives her and Derrick isn't from a large family, he's only got one brother and might be quite attracted to the idea of a huge brood. I think there's a good chance they'll end up with at least ten. I really, really hope that Jill won't quit midwife training until she's certified and has worked for a few years at least, it would be such a waste. But I wouldn't be surprised if she did quit, this lot has got such a twisted view on women and gender roles.

I've always thought Joseph a bit lumpish tbh. Hopefully he'll grow out of it but everything about him right now screams typical not-terribly-clever yet horribly smug yob with a male entitlement complex the size of Arkansas. Since John David has been travelling down that road as well (and Smuggar has always been... well, smug) this seems to be a Duggar trait. Once they're done with puberty the Jim Boob gene kicks in or something. I can only hope it will pass Josiah by; he seems to be a nice boy and hopefully the ALERT re-programming wont change that.

It's nice to see so many of us are making the transition to the same place :) I'm using the same username as on TWoP.