SueB

It's definitely for Dean, listen to what Sam says at the end.

Another sneak peek: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/03/31/bobby-returns-exclusive-supernatural-sneak-peek?hootPostID=64995bd2b03f9f79c1bfb59605b87aac ACK!!! Bobby Feels. I was unprepared for Bobby Feels. But, he's reading up on Tori Spelling...which is adorable IMO. *sigh* Is it Wednesday yet???

Yeah he's doomed....but he's not self-loathing. That's like a major win. He thinks he's worthy of more than a one-night-stand kinda relationships. Victory?

++ Kevin -- Karen Singer -- Adam 27 - Henriksen 25 - Jody 25 - Kevin 19 - Pamela 19 - Bela 19 - Mrs. Tran 17 - Frank 17 - Chuck 15 - Lisa 15 - Jessica 15 - Charlie 13 - Ed 13 - Harry 11 - Karen Singer 11 - Adam 11 - Henry Winchester 09 - Ben 07 - Claire Writer’s Cannon Fodder Becky Amelia Cole

I so hope Sam had set up a Home Alone trap for Dean when he goes into his room. Something with spray glue glitter and feathers. And a video camera. Boys could use a laugh. And yes, Sam is really bad at sneaky. ETA. I joke 'make good choices' to my 24 yr old all the time.

I'd characterize it that way if they had JUST started a romantic-based relationship and then Cas dies. Cas is worth so much more than that (as you've indicated).

I would be so very opposed to fridging the gay. It's within the skillset of these writers but I'm hoping they are not that stupid.

I'll post a few eulogies: Becky: I'm sorry for your character assassination in the Wedding episode. You were goofy and over the top before, but that episode was beneath any fan-representative. I'm going to pretend that you were somehow roofied too. I do want to thank you for publishing Carver's unpublished works. It's tough on the boys but good for people like Charlie. But it's been 3 years now, so it's time to let this particular fandom go. Can I interest you in Buffy??? Amelia...I think the limes made you a bit sour. But you got a bad deal. I'm pissed Sam did not break things off with you cleanly. You deserved better than that. And I'll even forgive you for sleeping with Sam while being married because...damn, he's good looking and you two seemed to be in synch as "troubled souls". But I think it's best for everyone if you just settled back into you vet job with your husband and keep the memory of Sam warm in your heart. Cole...Dude. Walk away. Seriously, you've had enough trauma. Stay away from this freaky shit and take care of your family. Sam and Dean have this covered. And eventually Dean is going to pull you up by the short-hairs if you keep calling Sam "Sammy". So, now is the time for a retreat. Glad you didn't have to be beheaded due to Khan Worm, but stick to the civilian life now. -- Harry -- Ed ++ Frank 25 - Henricksen 21 - Jody 21 - Kevin 19 - Pamela 19 - Bela 19 - Mrs. Tran 17 - Chuck 17 - Frank 15 - Lisa 15 - Jessica 13 - Ed 13 - Harry 13 - Karen Singer 13 - Charlie 13 - Adam 11 - Henry Winchester 11 - Ben 09 - Claire Writer’s Cannon Fodder Becky Amelia Cole

Robbie Thompson tweeted several weeks back when they were writing the script that it was going to be an emotionally painful finale. He even offered "counselling" services at VanCon for anyone traumatized. Misha said the finale was a bummer. I'd say were looking at a very sad sad finale and I have a hard time equating that with canon Destiel. Sure a portion (small, medium, large...take your pick) would be upset with Destiel, but "bummer", "traumatic" and "emotionally painful" don't really seem to equate. "Controversial", "keep us talking all summer", or "major story shift" would seem more along the lines of Destiel going canon. It wouldn't surprise me if Cas dies (because I think that would equate to those "bummer" descriptions as viewed by the writers). I don't want that ...not at all. Otherwise it's going to be Sam dying or permanently damaging his soul, or Dean dying again or being permanently a demon, or some other horrendous thing that has me skipping the glass and drinking straight from the bottle. I'd also say the cast might be trolling our asses but the writers were talking this way when the story was being written, Jim Micheals was tweeting along similar lines when they were setting up production....it all seems to point to very dark finale. And frankly, J2 in particular, are TERRIBLE secret keepers. They are just bursting to tell us so little hints are likely genuine versus foilers IMO. Tara Maclay: "Assume crash positions."

It's not the years, it's the mileage. I just watched Gunman with Sean Penn because the hubby really wanted to see it. "Don't bother" is my official review. But Sean Penn is one of those guys who did not age well. In this movie he's got a buff 30-year old body and a face that looks 70. It's a little freaky. I think Jensen doesn't live a hard life-style (other than long working hours). I'd be surprised if he does anything but continue to look handsome. Going from "pretty" when young, to "gorgeous" a few years ago, to "ridiculously handsome" now, to eventually "distinguished" (in about 20 years).

Bingo. And this is why God is an absentee father IMO. I personally don't think Chuck/God is a dick. I think he lets bad shit happen (like the Angels deciding to throw an Apocalypse) and it's up to the humans/Angels/other beings to get out of the mess. He set up a decent system (good go up, bad go down, everyone gets free will). But he's letting humans (in particular) sort out what they want. So no, I don't want Chuck/God stepping in to fix the Mark of Cain. I think he stepped in the one time (to put them on that plane) because it was literally "game over" at that point. I think he keeps stepping in to resurrect Cas because Cas didn't have the natural spark that he gave humans. So Cas gets extra lives to figure it out. Of course now it sounds like God is playing a video game. I don't feel that way at all. I think he's Team Humanity but he wants them to win for themselves. Because then it will mean something. And then they will have learned something along the way. He doesn't want mindless babies. He wants people to grown and learn. And he'll let bad shit happen because that's what some folks choose to do. Note: I'm speaking In-Universe here as to why I think we won't see a literal deus ex machina.

... cluck like a chicken ... run up and down the street naked ... hug everyone they meet like "Sam" did in Tall Tales... Sorry, I'm just imagining about a thousand funny things. I think I need this to happen now. She didn't bother me. I thought she was unusual for a nun (and no way do they wear that much makeup) but kinda sassy. The Italian Ghost!nun? Yikes. Her acting for me was worse that Italian Fabio's hair. And that's sayin' something. IA that the flashback scenes were just too much. I could have seen ONE flashback, the squick one where she cuts off her finger so we get the connection to the painting... but the rest were painful to watch.

There's clearly a difference between low self-esteem and deserving to go to Hell. Most of the examples I provided were examples of why Dean believes he's "not good enough". That doesn't mean he was an evil/bad person, just not good enough. But I think he started to believe he was less than even a "good" person after he went to Hell. Breaking it down by Season: - I think Dean didn't really believe in Hell until S2 (when he found out his Dad was there and signed up to go himself). - I think he believed he didn't deserve to go to Hell in S3. So, he may have had self-worth issues but I think he believed he was one of the "good guys". - I think Hell did a real number on Dean's head. It wasn't the breaking under torture, it was enjoying the torture he dished out to others. Dean knows this and it eats at him, I believe. He's not like Sam. Sam seemed to feel he had done Hell-worthy things while alive (drinking demon blood), but that he served his time in the cage with Lucifer and could put it behind him. He still has many issues but while Hell kind of broke his brain, he didn't feel bad about what he did in the cage (or at least he's never indicated that he did). - At first, being chosen by God in S4 made Dean feel really good. Until he found out Angels were dicks, that he started the Apocalypse by breaking the first seal, and that all they really wanted was his meatsuit. So the feeling of second chance got really tarnished as S4/S5 progressed. - In S5 he expressed some surprise at being in Heaven. But he also stated that he thought maybe all the people saving made up for the bad. So, IMO, at the end S5, I think he thought was hoping to go to the penthouse someday instead of the basement. - In S6, he started a downward spiral that continued on in S7. This is where he stated multiple times he was a monster and not someone fit to eat at Ben and Lisa's table. That slicing throats was what he was good for. I'd say it was ambiguous on where he thought he'd spend eternity. - In S8, it seemed like he was at peace with who he was as a hunter and I'd say he probably thought he was "fighting the good fight". So, I'd say he was thinking he did "necessary killing" and didn't think he was hell-bound for it. - In S9, I think Dean decided that what he had done to Sam, and Kevin's death had damned him. He explicitly said "I'll burn for that". So yeah, in S9 I think Dean decided he was not just doing "necessary killing" but was in fact a bad person, deserving of going to Hell. It didn't help that he turned into a demon when he died. That's like Exhibit A for Dean's internal mental prosecutor. Yes, it's because of the Mark but Dean feels he deserves going to Hell IMO. I, of course, do not REMOTELY think this is the case. - In S10, Dean hasn't stated anything about his soul but honestly, I think he still believes he's damned due to the Mark of Cain. He knows that being truly evil, as in being a demon, is NOT what he wants. He's fighting it literally (versus the figurative battle that most people fight in their own internal good vs bad fight). But unlike most people, Dean thinks it's inevitable IMO. So, he's trying to do as much good as he can until the evil takes over. It's very sad, IMO. Dean IS a good man. He was rash to take on the Mark but he didn't do it for personal power. He truly took it on to take out Abaddon. THAT is why I cut him slack for everything that has happened to him. And I think Chuck would say the same. If, OTOH, Dean just wanted to have power so he could punish those he felt were bad, THAT would be a real issue IMO. Intent matters. It's why, for me at least, Sam drinking demon blood was a worse moral choice than Dean taking on the Mark. Don't get me wrong, I think Sam knows this and atoned for it. But Dean's rash decision has such large consequences. Perhaps, if you factor in how Dean GOT to that mental state (tricking Sam into possession, lying to everyone about Ezekiel/Gadreel), there's more culpability for Dean than I'm suggesting. Still, people make bad 'decisions-of-the-moment' that have forever consequences all the time. The asshole who thinks he's okay to drive and kills people in a DUI. The person who thinks they are okay to drive even though they are exhausted and kills others in a car accident. Sorry for the long-winded response. I hope I've cleared up my perspective. I'll bottom line it for you: I don't think Dean always believed he was deserving of Hell, I think he believed that in S9 and now thinks it's inevitable. If he COULD be saved from the Mark, I think Dean would try and "fight the good fight" and hope he gets a shot at Heaven. In otherwords, I think his sense of "good" vs "bad" is different now regarding how he is. But I think he believes Hell is inevitable, no matter what he does. Still, what makes him still a hero is he's going to go down fighting the good fight until he's completely incapable of doing so.

Summary of Gold Panel (episode/future episode only info) :http://sammyhale.tumblr.com/post/114950912032/j2-seacon-gold-panel-summary

From J2 Gold Panel at SeaCon:

Season 2: AHBL2 - "Then maybe my life can mean something." Season 5: Surprised he made it to Heaven Season 7: "I am 90% crap." Season 9: "I'm poison." I think I could come up with two or three quotes per year if I spent more than 30 seconds on it.

No clue. Although if there's a great deal of SFx/VFx, it's not unusual to should the finale out of order for many shows.

When did that happen? I barely saw Misha mention the PCA and fans begged him for a shot with it for weeks before he did.

I like this sassier Rowena. Before she was an obvious obsequious toad to get Crowley to bend to her will. Now she's giving him shit left and right (grand entrance and all) and says more of what she's really thinking. She's also a habitual liar so it's tough for her to be "real" but there were a least a few real moments.

Emphasis mine. First, "it would be the only positive progress I would accept as such" suggests that any other signs of progress are meaningless for you. That's okay but I think you set up the writers to fail (for you) if the only way you are content with a story is if it exactly meets your criteria. I would counter a broader argument might be something to consider. Specifically, that if Dean sees himself as a worthy human being, and that even though he has flaws, that's part of being human...then I think THAT would be real progress. Dean was hardwired by John to a level of personal accountability and perfectionism on protecting others. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. Like John's crabbing about the dirty car in "Dead Man's Blood". Now part of this is John just being a parent. So many parents pick, pick, pick...always trying to get their kids to be better. Other parents praise every little success like it's a huge deal (Oh Joey! You got third place in the shoe tying contest! Let's have a celebration!). Good parents, I would contend, provide both praise and guidance. John Winchester was a picker. Part of it was his hyper-sensitivity to the things that go bump in the night. If you are a hunter, you are usually going up against stuff that is more powerful than you. So you have to be faster/better/stronger/more clever than most people. And single mistakes DO get you killed. So....Dean comes by his sense of personal perfectionism naturally. And reality backs it up -- you make a mistake as a hunter and people get killed. It's a part of the gig. But IMO, Dean is starting to let that go. Just look at the three key "Dean" moments in Paint It Black: - Conversation w/ Sr Mathais... reminder that it's easier for Dean to deal with his pain if he's on a mission. He's always had this, but now he's CLINGING to mission. Mission is kinda all he has because physically, I suspect he's feeling like shit. Dean used to get a great deal of pleasure out of sex/food/alcohol. I think he enjoys those things but I don't think they give him joy like they used to. Now his "happy" comes from the mission. He's not being a martyr here -- he's recognizing what makes him happy and he's letting himself focus on it. Maybe the right thing is to look for a MoC solution, but Dean thinks those chances are too remote. So he's going to pursue his passion with the time he has left. Sam might think that's selfish but Dean is putting his own emotional needs in the front here. - Confession... many interpreted this as a big "Destiel" sign. While that's always a possibility, I think what is more important is that Dean thinks he's WORTHY of something more. That he doesn't want to die and he'd like to have deeper relationships. As Dean said, he was always just moving forward at a high velocity. Now he's starting to think he ought to take time with relationships. Dean's sense of responsibility is such that I don't think he'd ever try a relationship if he thought all he'd bring someone else is pain or death. Dean's had friends and people he cares about but no one except Sam and Cas that he's really allowed to get close with. I think he really tried with Lisa but he thought he put her thru hell. She had to tell him it was the best year of her life and I'm certain he didn't believe it. It doesn't really matter what others may have told him in the past, it appears NOW Dean is starting to see that he's worth having deeper relationships. And of course that's part of why he doesn't want to die (or turn demon again). - Car conversation - while Dean is still obviously hopeless about his future, I thought it was interesting how he was kidding around with Sam being right. Dean has certainly admitted when he was wrong in the past but somehow this teasing/lighter version seemed better. That Sam was right and he was wrong didn't seem that big of a deal as it was before. Before he may have beaten himself up over insisting Sam burn the Journal and being wrong about it. Now? Meh. Sam was right and he's poking fun at Sam's need to hear Dean say he was right. I like that. I think he's taking his mistakes less seriously. It shows, to me, a greater acceptance of self. And yes, I really did get ALL this from Paint It Black. And I don't think I'm stretching. I think they've been showing Dean to is changing his sense of self all year.

Not remotely! If they hadn't had put something in the DVD special about it I would have never mentioned it. But I also don't believe they'd go there. Too many would be upset, it would be too big of a commitment to go one way or the other. I think they got away with God in the Supernatural universe because the Angels are dicks, God is an absentee father, and Jesus as an unspecified hippie. But back to my whole point -- I don't think witchcraft or anything man-made is going to get rid of the Mark. Control it, perhaps, but not get rid of it. I think even Not!Gretal's spell might have eventually caught up with Dean when his body aged back to 37. Although that was mighty fuzzy.

I don't ever recall him saying Jesus was just a man. I remember him talking about Luke being a prophet. ITA the show is much more comfortable with Abrahmic and pre-Abrahmic stories but I don't think we ever got Cas explicitly saying Jesus was not divine. ETA: I think the number one reason they'd never pull out the spear would be because it puts too much emphasis on Jesus. OTOH, all the rituals they do are Catholic based. So.... They are wildly inconsistent.

IDK. It's got Jesus blood on it. That's a pretty power positive thing. I'm thinking it won't make him a demon. Hitler's dudes thought it would make the person immortal. Of course Hitler was pretty demonic without the black smoke. And demons are immortal, at least Caun was. But, I'm thinking blood of redemption here, not a demon thing.

Everybody Hates Hitler. Dean was doing inventory. He found the Oz key and held up the box that said 'Spear of Destiny'. Dean wondered aloud if it was God's toothpick. It was Andrew Dabb who described the backstory of the Spear of Destiny in a S8 DVD special feature. It was a Checkov's fun moment In my opinion.

I don't think a witch can get of the MoC, I think Not!Gretal's de-aging spell was a loophole but that may have only given Dean time. I don't think it was permanent. If your talking about Rowena's statement in the preview, I think she's talking about her own skin. If you are talking about the Sam theories, I'm thinking 'control' vice cure. I do think the Spear of Destiny in the Bunker may be strong enough to remove the Mark. But that's cause it has Jesus juice. I don't think anything man-made or demon-powered has a shot.