cereality

So her water broke in the early hours on Saturday and he was born Monday at 11 pm. Interesting -- I guess the -- we have to get the kid out within 24 hrs of water breaking due to infection risk -- did not apply to Jilly Muffin.

So much BS in that People article - the doctor promised a vaginal birth next time? No doctor in his right mind would promise that. My guess is if that conversation happened when they were trying to explain to her that she needed a c section, it was along the lines of -- having a c section this time will not affect your ability to have a vaginal birth later -- not guaranteeing it but saying people have c sections followed by vaginal births. If it was while he was stitching her up, it was likely more along the lines of -- I see no uterine damage here, no concerns about future births. And Derick saying -- there's no shame in laboring for a long time and not progressing and not needing a c. No kidding -- it's a medical procedure. Is there shame in needing antibiotics or ulcer medicine? It's kind of the same thing. Who is he trying to convince -- I am thinking Jilly Muffin is having a hard time accepting she had a c section and she needs to hear over and over that it isn't her fault. I kind of wonder if Derick is the one who finally pushed her/signed off on the C-section -- bc some part of his pea brain finally accepted his kid may be in danger with heart rate issues when Jill still couldn't accept that -- and Jill -- without saying it -- is kind of holding it against him that he "undermined" her and her body's capacity to birth. But in their keeping sweet way, she can't exactly have a screaming match as most couples would and move on. That may explain their general discomfort with each other -- on top of the all the physical stuff, she's mad at him and blames him, and he knows it but won't bring it up either. If I were Dan or Cathy (esp Dan) -- I'm not sure I could hold back on my "I told you this family was nuts . . . ."

She seems annoyingly perky. But hopefully she was just playing it up for the camera while Josiah -- who's clearly over it -- was talking as fast as possible and faking a smile at the end. Maybe it'll be good for Josiah to be around a girl who is happy and presumably a happier family. He seemed fine as a know-it-all preteen, but after that phase he got pretty quiet and just never looked happy and was being shipped off to Alert all the time. Maybe this brings some joy back into his life. Her dad's comments to People suggest that they act a bit more like boyfriend/girlfriend at the Jackson home. I'm not suggesting there's physical contact, but I'm guessing they are allowed private conversation, sitting around eating together or maybe watching movies or something. Her dad said that he's seen a friendship that's grown over time, he has seen how Josiah treats and respects his daughter. Those are only things you can see if you are watching from afar -- not if you are seated on the couch directly next to them or have parked your 5 yr old there to chaperone bc at that point it stifles all conversation beyond the most perfunctory issues -- and you as a parent have no idea if the dude is kind and respectful to your daughter's thoughts and ideas or if he's the type who shuts it down and takes the tone of -- I'm the man, I'll tell you how it's going to work in our marriage . . . .

She and Derick look more and more uncomfortable with each other. I realize she labored for days, ended up on iv antibiotics, had a c section, a long hospital stay, and probably is in pain after the surgery, not to mention breastfeeding pain and general sleep deprivation. So I'm not thinking they need to be acting lovey dovey or even be physically touching bc she just may not be able to right now. BUT that should have no effect on conversation -- contradicting each other, awkward pauses where Derick then tries to "fix" what he was saying, and Jill jumps in and fixes it for him. It was happening before Iz as well and was really obvious in that People video.

Lets be real -- every woman gets nervous re labor and pain. BUT I don't see Jessa being like Jill. If it's an easy birth and she can quickly pop him/her out at home, fine. If not --I see her having no problem going to a hospital, getting an epidural and getting a c section rather than suffering for days just so she can act like a martyr. I imagine they have insurance coverage since the fed gov't requires it now and knowing they'd be getting pregnant soon anyway, hopefully they opted for at least decent coverage; so she likely does have a hospital, epidural, c section option should she want/need it -- which didn't always used to be the case with fundie women who didn't have the financial means.

I love how they keep saying in the article and the video that the birth and this past week have really brought them closer together. I'm sorry if you need a risky birth where 3-4 different alarming factors came up to bring you closer together -- maybe you should have gotten to know each other a bit better before jumping into making a family. I realize the first birth is often the hardest and not always indicative of how the rest will go, but it's possible that Jill didn't inherit Michelle's ability to just squat down and pop out a kid. If every birth goes like this -- I think she'll be having 3 more c sections and ending up with 4 kids total. Derick might be breathing a sigh of relief that 20 kids don't look like a realistic possibility.

What is wrong with them!? Group B strep, meconium, no Pitocin, a transverse baby and FINALLY they relent to a c section when the baby starts having heart rate issues?! I'm sure she was offered Pitocin the moment she walked in the door and a c section shortly thereafter. I called it -- she looked and sounded like she labored for a LONG time before a c section. I wouldn't trust her to assist me with anything -- if this is her own decision making for her own self and baby, I imagine how much more callous she would be with someone else's kid.

Josiah asked his future father in law for an apprenticeship. Maybe there's hope that he has a career plan/is developing a career plan that will involve some education, or at least some certifications along with experience working for something besides Duggar Holdings.

I know everyone is on the Josiah bandwagon right now, but does no one remember him as a pre teen? He was one of the key interviewees for the THs -- going on and on about how his family does everything different and better than every other family in the world. He was quite obnoxious. He has toned down a bit, probably because as he got older he didn't really fit in with the other boys in the family -- maybe it's lack of interests in cars or mechanical things like Josh or JD, maybe it's just being more sensitive, maybe it's his liking for pink shirts and bow ties -- so he started keeping his mouth shut a bit more and now everyone thinks he's likeable bc he was seen hugging Ben and crying re another pregnancy. This could be his ultimate way of "fitting in" with his family -- find a girl, put a ring on it in 6 months, and make a baby. Suddenly he gets to have social media accounts. I bet he's suddenly getting invited to dinner with Jill, Josh, and Jessa and their spouses -- and they likely ignored him before he was "important" enough to court.

It would be great if Marjorie's parents said -- we like you, we have no problem with you dating or even marrying our daughter BUT you must have an education/trade/occupation independent of your family and TLC; let's talk about how you're going to pursue that -- and then help him figure something out whether it's online classes or whatever. It would be great if the "construction" gig were temporary as he works his way to the kind of job he wants.

There are positives here -- Josiah has never fit into his own family, probably bc he's a bit smarter than them (though he fit in just fine when he was a pre-teen and really bought into the "we do things different and better than you" mantra). This family may be the right "fit" for him -- a girl who reads books and isn't isolated, even if she is fundie/fundie lite; and a multicultural side -- he can continue learning Spanish, her mom will probably be spoiling him with whatever his favorite meals turn out to be in their home; and he can get in with a "tight" family who will love him. But then he's 18 with no education and she lives in Springdale. That means they are staying local and JB will be creating a job for him; the article says he does "construction" for dad, so I guess that's where he stays. He isn't a manual labor kind of guy (nothing wrong with it -- but it doesn't seem like his thing), but with a wife by age 19 (I'm assuming), unless her family is REALLY supportive and encouraging and sort of "mandates" that he go to school while working in return for allowing the marriage -- he gets to remain in a daddy created manual labor job for life and thus has JB calling the shots.

I'm not even sure if Gil would have to tell Joseph that -- I feel like Tori is outgoing enough that she would/could clarify to him that she has no intention of living in Arkansas with/near his family. Joseph is going to college near the Bates' home and given that it's an unaccredited school that's big in that region -- chances are he could get a job near the Bates' home or in Knoxville or Nashville if he so desired -- i.e. if Tori has decided she's a "city girl" who'd rather live there. I don't think the Bates would feel awkward making that "demand" of Joseph -- they probably don't want Tori being influenced by the Duggar crazy train and think it's best if she only has to see them 1-2x a yr as you would with out of town inlaws; and they've seen guys move to the girls' hometowns before so they wouldn't think it's a revolutionary choice; Chad moved to TN to be with Erin and he didn't even have any tie to TN like attending college there while he courted Erin. This would be a much more "natural" move --just sticking around your college town after graduation, which many young grads do anyway.

[snip] If she wants to be open to some choices in her life at some point that do not involve child bearing, Derick can run to Target and grab a box of Trojans just like any other guy. Until then -- they can have a kid every 9 months if they'd rather. I don't really know -- or care -- what the fundie stance is re Israel, but I do think they are messed up in the head -- not just Jill but Derick as well. I don't care if they believe that Israel is 100% politically and religiously correct in everything it does or that Jews are 100% perfect, and the family is immigrating to Israel next year; BUT why would you use your CHILD as a platform for this kind of thing by burdening him with such a "significant" name? Every time his name shows up on a resume or a college application (though who am I kidding -- maybe he won't go to college and will work for Grandpa JB his whole life), there will be presumptions made re his religion, his politics etc. Now if it turns out the kid is 100% on board, great. But what if his child isn't enamored with religion or fundie culture? He's stuck with a name that suggests he is. I mean some of Jill's own siblings are over it -- I'm looking at you Josiah, James, and Joy; does Jill not realize that "culture" weakens over generations? I feel like most "smart" parents try to think about what names sound like for a little kid but also for a 30 yr old profession. Derick goes through life with such an "easy" name, and then burdens his kid with the name "Israel" in a place that isn't exactly as cosmopolitan as NYC? And yes it would be just as weird if they had an Ian or a Sean and had an Irish flag birth announcement as part of a political agenda. As for the hair braiding -- eh. Look -- Joy is essentially Jill's daughter. For days she's probably been getting reports at home that the birth was taking days, they had to head to the hospital, she needs a C-section etc. She was probably sitting at home expecting/fearing the worst -- or even if she was at the hospital with her -- seeing Jill screaming her lungs out was probably unnerving. So after it's over, she probably wants to be around Jill and spend time with her and make sure she is "really" ok. She probably asked -- what can I do for you, and hair is probably the only thing they could come up with. I mean all Jill really needed at that time was sleep (which Joy obviously can't do for her) and food (which was already being brought on trays). This was another "nice" thing to do.

If Joseph is courting or is in the "get to know you" stage before courting, he's going to have to step up his game way beyond what Josh did. That was 6 yrs ago and Anna was far more desperate to get married and impressed with Duggar attention, so Josh was able to get away with some teleconference phone calls to get to know her and a proposal at some tacky restaurant where he showed up with balloons. The Bates girls don't seem nearly as desperate even though they are fundie, and I think they expect more. They have Chad around and seem to love him; they know Chad treated Erin like a princess all through the courting process and the proposal was ultimately princess themed with a horse drawn carriage and everything. They've seen Brandon writing poetry for Michaela. So Joseph acting like a doofus and showing up empty handed to take her out to dinner with her siblings a few times and having nothing to talk about at dinner just won't cut it. I can't keep all the Bates girls straight, but that middle section of Bates girls -- Tori, Carlin, Josie, Alyssa -- are pretty spunky and speak their mind. I imagine they like guys who are smart and well spoken, even if they aren't educated in the traditional sense. I imagine if Tori tells you in conversation that her favorite flowers are tulips and you show up with daises, she will call you on it and if your response is "duh I forgot" -- that wouldn't be seen as a positive. I can see why Joseph would like a girl with some personality and some energy, though for the life of me I'm not sure what he brings to the table. He's quiet -- which is fine -- but he doesn't seem like he's quiet just bc she's shy; he seems quiet bc he's got nothing to say and when he says something it's usually goofing around with John David acting like a dork. I don't see that cutting it for Tori, and I view Gil and Kelly as loving parents -- much more than JB and Michelle; if their daughter said to them -- look I know this guy is a family friend, a good Christian etc. but I just can't see a life with him -- I don't think they'd force her in any way. Kelly has even said that beyond the "character" qualities the family looks for, of course the couple needs to have some attraction/heat between them.

I was surprised that Jessa posted a video of Marcus wearing headphones and dancing/moving to a beat. It was obviously shot in Arkansas and Josh was sitting right there and didn't stop him or anything; in fact when he tried to run off -- Josh stopped him from doing that bc he was plugged into the headphones. I'm sure JB and Michelle weren't around. Seems like the older kids are loosening the grip on the fundie stuff -- little by little. Just a few yrs ago we saw a howler getting scolded for bopping to the beat produced by a toy and we had Josiah -- before his sullen teen phase, when he was in his pre-teen, I know everything and my family is better than yours phase -- going on about how rock music is terrible bc it makes you move and stirs up desires that can't be righteously fulfilled or some other nonsense. Looks like times are changing for the next generation.

On the David and Priscilla topic -- say Priscilla is making mistakes -- like burning dinner or a child is crying when David is trying to relax after work and he doesn't like the noise or whatever -- and he yells at her. Is she REALLY afraid of him? To where she'll apologize and be scared he'll leave? I mean look at him -- he's hardly a man. He's like 5-6 and 120 lb of dork. If a guy like that yells at you -- wouldn't you yell back or tell him to make his own damn dinner or whatever. I mean if he hits you -- a woman can pretty much hit him back. I realize they would never talk back to a headship or hit him bc that's not how they are raised and frankly they are financially dependent on the headship for a paycheck and a roof over their heads -- having no education or marketable skills and likely cannot fall back on family as the Kellers probably couldn't take her and her kids in even if they wanted to since they don't see all that financially comfortable. BUT in your heart of hearts -- could you possibly be scared of a man like that? I mean we're not talking 6 ft, 200 lb with a booming voice?!

I would love to see a Duggar boy courting. I know Josh courted, but frankly their courting "system" wasn't so elaborate and drawn out then and there was nothing to show. All we know is that he met her at a homeschool conference, apparently he tele-conferenced with her and his siblings a bunch of times but we weren't privy to it, we saw the call where he asked her dad for permission, and then the engagement with balloons. Duggar courting has evolved quite a bit since then with trips to Nepal, Thorncrown chapel, songs written for proposals, boyfriends moving in, boyfriends cleaning toilets . . . . If Joseph is/hopes to court a Bates girl, he will have to step up the Duggar game. The Bates girls have Chad around and seem to love him --they know that he went out of the way to treat Erin like a princess during courting and then actually do a princess themed kind of proposal with a horse drawn carriage etc. And they have seen how Brandon gives Michaela romantic poetry etc. So a Duggar saying -- let's go eat at an alligator themed restaurant with my millions of siblings won't cut it.

It's not about whether Jill had complications with the C-section. Even if a C-section goes absolutely perfect, most doctors will tell you you can't have more than 3-5 C-sections max -- I think it's due to uterine weakness/damage even in perfect cases. Now if this C-section was an anomaly for some reason, and Jill is able to come back next yr (which I think they will) and have a vaginal birth and all/most of the births after that are vaginal -- then she can still have the 20 kids she has always dreamed. If they come back next yr OTOH and she has to have another C-section, then it may look like that is the only way she can deliver -- which limits her to 3-5 kids, unless she decides that she wants to go against doctors' wishes and take risks -- which she might but Derick might not, though who knows -- the way he's going, 5 yrs from now, his response to any medical advice may be "we'll pray it away." Hopefully for the sake of Jill's mental health, this section was necessary due to something about this baby -- other than size. Maybe bc he was 2 weeks overdue, there was an effect on his heart rate or her heart rate and/or BP and they needed him out ASAP. But if it's due to something systemtic about how her body gives birth -- like it won't dilate enough no matter what drugs she's given or her pelvis can't fit a 10 pounder (I feel like people's kids' birth weights tend to be fairly consistent -- I've never heard of 10 lb for the first kid but only 6 lb for the rest) -- then she is looking at a smaller family. I'm sure she's coming to grips with it. Michelle was able to have 19 kids bc after the first c section with Jana and JD -- I think she birthed naturally for the next dozen. It's not like she was having a c section yearly. Derick certainly doesn't seem all that hearty -- not that I'm surprised. Saying he's exhausted and doesn't know if it's day or night -- when his kid is 3 days old and still in the hospital? You have nursing help right now, may be able to send the kid to the nursery (or maybe not -- every hospital is different), and Jill's meals are being delivered to her on a tray so he doesn't need to be fetching anything for her. The fun part starts when you get home buddy. Though if he's drinking the Duggar kool-aid, I say go all the way. When they get home, he should step back from the "women's work. I mean Jill's life dream is to birth kids, so she can handle an infant and I'm sure she's having Joy move in any way and probably James as well -- who can't do women's work but can run down to the kitchen to fetch her a snack.

Has Derick really lost weight since the wedding? I haven't noticed. I noticed how thin he was at the wedding though -- he was swimming in his suit. I think most people do gain weight after a wedding. It's a happy time -- wedding planning is over; "tension" is released for people who didn't have sex until after the wedding; and for people coming from larger families -- they are no longer competing with 18 other siblings for seconds at dinner. For Derick though -- his mom was ill at the time of the wedding but seems to have improved a lot but of course that is counter balanced these 9 months by the stress of a pregnant wife; impending new fatherhood and not knowing what to expect with that; and Jill and the Duggars constantly weighing in re how this child will be raised, and probably already talking about the NEXT baby -- while he's trying to catch his breath and adjust to being a married man and father.

This child was born on the 6th and Jill's still in the hospital on the 10th -- definite C-section. I have a number of friends who've had babies in the last few years -- uniformly it's been 2 nights in the hospital. For Jill that would have been Monday night and Tuesday night with her being released Wed. morning; if the hospital/insurance co. gave her a grace period bc he was born 10 min before midnight, that would still be a Thursday morning release. I wonder if Derick (and Cathy and Dan) are breathing a sigh of relief that it was a C-section early on in their child bearing days. Unless she can successfully VBAC -- which I wouldn't think would be likely if all of their kids are 10 pounders -- they are looking at a family size of 4-5 kids max instead of 12 or 14 or whatever Jill would have wanted. Does Derick not have a driver's license? Is there some reason Jill has to drive him to work and father in law has to drive him to the orthodontist? And is there SUCH a desperate need for braces that they must be acquired THIS week while his wife is in the hospital? I mean even if it was a pre scheduled appointment, I'm sure most drs' would understand rescheduling bc your wife just gave birth.

I've seen this too. At some point he will realize how much he is compromising, and that may cause him to do some things the Dillard way rather than the Duggar way. I don't think it'll happen for a while. I doubt he has any experience with babies -- as he even said he'd never seen an u/s before -- so for right now he'll defer to the queen of all babies -- Jill and with that comes the Duggar way. I imagine he's a bit intimidated by handling a newborn, as many (not all) dads are. But when that kid hits 3 or 5, I can then see Derick thinking back to how he was raised. I've seen many guys who were all lovey-dovey, "honey whatever you want" with their wives until the kids came along and even while the kids were babies -- but suddenly when it was time for that kid to develop interests and a personality -- then those same guys were very "I want him to be a representation of MY side of the family." So about 3 yrs from now -- I can see Derick arguing with Jill about sending little Israel to preschool at a local church, rather than just calling running around barefoot and dirty with Josie and crew an education. I can see him trying to put the kid in t-ball or letting him watch a kid TV show or a Disney movie here and there too. It's a process that will take time though.

I agree -- I really don't think he would have married Jill or at least not rushed into a courtship/marriage with her if his dad was still around. It seems like he was raised in faith but really turned to it after his dad died; bc in his own family -- faith didn't "hold them back" in any way -- public school, sports, working mom etc. was all perfectly fine. Then he suddenly turns to faith in a time of crisis, discovers how a true Christian "should" live -- putting faith before everything else -- and then seeks out a fundie to pray with -- JB. He starts thinking it would be good to have that fundie structure in his own life to focus him on God -- and in order to do that he has to marry a fundie girl, abide by all their rules re courtship, whether he wants to or not. And hence -- in less than 1 yr he's married with a baby. I don't even think he realizes yet how much he has compromised. I just hope Dan and Cathy stay involved with him -- and don't just get pissed off and say whatever, I can't deal with him so I guess I'll see him at holidays only; I don't see Cathy doing that but I could see Dan getting there. Their involvement is the only hope that his kid gets to do normal things as they may encourage -- hey have you taken Israel to see x movie, he'd love it . . . .

Didn't Jessa and Ben go off to a cabin someplace right after the wedding -- I'm thinking Tennessee or NC or something? They were there for a few days, and that's when she posted that kissing pic that her gross parents replicated. Then they returned back to the TTC and then went to Europe. My guess is that they did not get out of bed for days at the cabin; somehow I picture them going again and again as soon as Ben was ready. So by the time they got to Europe, they may not have minded being outside, sightseeing etc. -- knowing that they had just spent days doing nothing but consummating.

That's nice that Dan got to hold his nephew after work -- I'm assuming given the tie. By how she looks -- if she had a C-section, I think she labored for a LONG time before it. Her eyes look totally exhausted and her voice is shot. He was born in the 11 pm hour yesterday but it looks like she did not sleep the night -- so I wouldn't be surprised if she had been in labor since Sunday morning, awake all day, awake all through Sunday night, laboring all day Monday into Monday night when the doctors finally said -- this is getting too dangerous, C-section. It would explain the eyes and the voice if she was screaming through contractions for a day or two. Though I don't know -- the baby's face has some definite spots etc. so maybe it was a forceps delivery. If she did have a c section delivery, I completely expect we'll see tears and prayer and "this is God's will" talk on their VSE. Any normal mom takes the view of -- let's get this kid out with me and the kid both being safe. With Jill I fully expect her thinking and praying not just about THIS kid but the rest of the family she has dreamed of; so I can see her thinking -- what if this c section results in me always needing c sections, OMG that'll only be 4 kids. Normal moms definitely have a few moments (or even months or years) of -- never again -- once they experience childbirth; I mean of course it goes away or there would never be 2nd kids, but in the throes of childbirth, no woman besides a fundie one is thinking about how many times she gets to do this again. And they are such publicity whores, it's sick. I'm sorry but there is no way that Derick just happened to be in an IDF t-shirt and that's just what got photographed. No way. That t shirt was carefully packed in Jill's maternity bag so that Derick would be able to change into it just before Israel's first photo shoot.

I didn't realize they still did forceps deliveries. I have friends in med school and residency who tell me it isn't really taught anymore the way it used to be; and because it isn't taught, drs. today consider it dangerous and opt for the C-section if it comes to that. Though I'm guessing that's just young doctors -- if she had anyone over age 40 or 45 delivering, they'd know how to do it. I agree with those who say she'd opt for forceps over a c section in a heartbeat. I mean she likely already feels like they had to "compromise" by going to a hospital; and being all into midwifery -- she probably believes that hospitals just push unnecessary surgeries on you because it's easier for them. So I can see her holding firm on -- I'll deliver in a hospital but no c section. And the other reason would be number of kids. I believe most doctors say no more than 3 or 4 c sections max; and there's never a guarantee that you'll be able to VBAC. I still believe they want 10+ kids (though she may be re-thinking this a little bit tonight as she is thinking about what she's gone through) -- I can see her in that moment saying -- babe a C-section means 4 kids max, no, totally no. I think Derick is about to age FAST just like Josh. You can tell Josh is SO over the baby train. He has been saying since his wedding day "as many as God gives us, and if that is only 2-3, that's fine." And he looks at Anna horrified when she says "4 is a good START." I think Derick is on the same train as Josh. I think he will be an involved Dad just like Josh, but when Israel is 4 and already has 2 other siblings and his mom is still talking about more blessings -- it will start to take a toll mentally and financially. And I don't think Derick is getting any action for a good long while. I sincerely hope Jill did not forego an epi when birthing a child the size of a 2 month old, but in an event the healing down there is going to take time. Maybe now Jill will understand why it's better to induce than go 2 weeks over.