cereality

Michaela is way way too available. Even if you saw him at a conference 6 yrs ago and have been praying for him since that day, why does he necessarily need to know that? Shouldn't he feel that you had/have other options too --even if you don't? Besides that -- I don't know, but they come across as "friends." Not saying that's bad -- I mean the way some fundies court, you don't even get to know the other person as a friend, you're just expected to put a ring on it and hop into bed. But I feel no heat or even any romantic interest at all between them. I realize fundy-ness squashes such interests, but with Chad and Erin and Zach and Whitney, you should still feel that they wanted each other ASAP. With Brandon and Michaela -- I think Michaela wants him, and he is just looking forward to playing house -- being able to say he's a husband, become a father, have a home and a family -- I'm not sure that he particularly cares if those things happen with Michaela or with some other girl, as long as they happen. IDK -- I may be wrong, but of all the courting couples we've seen with all the fundie families, Brandon comes across the least interested.

Just watched this episode and I think a Brandon & Michaela episode from last season where he came to stay for 2 weeks. I haven't had UPTv before and by your descriptions and what I had read previously about the courtship/poetry etc., I assumed he was the quiet/reserved but romantic type. He may still be very romantic, but I really don't think he's as happy now as when he started the courtship; while he will marry her and go along, it seems like he is over her clinginess and her annoying family. When he stayed for 2 weeks, you could practically see him "keeping sweet." When whichever of Tori/Carlin was harassing him to go down the slide at the bouncy place and basically forced him to do so, he did say -- with the requisite smile on his face -- "control you sister." Michaela's response of course -- she's out of control -- and then weirdly speaking to her sister about touching HER boyfriend. Um -- how about you tell your sisters, hey chill and leave him alone; don't harass him -- he and I are going to hang here, why don't you guys go walk around. Same when he was out with the older girls looking at the ring and they didn't let him get a word in and kept talking about what THEY wanted, not their sister. Same when he was out with Lawson, Nathan, and Trace; I mean you could see him "keeping sweet" when Lawson started on -- the south is the place to be. There's no way they'll live in Tenn. They'll be headed off to Chicago or Michigan or anywhere else he can get a job the second they're married, as they should. Michaela will go anywhere for him, so he should pick where he'll be happy. He's not Chad -- he won't be happy to stop by the house and do an errand for his inlaws or have kids jumping on him every weekend. As for the Chicago trip, it was beyond embarrassing. Kelly is so wanting to seal the deal, that she doesn't seem to realize that maybe she and her daughter are more into this relationship than Brandon and his family. I think Brandon probably loves her and/or has decided they can together live the Godly life with 8 kids that he wants and that she'll be subservient enough (as opposed to say Alyssa or Carlin or Tori) that he will be able to run his home/raise his family the way he wants to without her balking. But I don't see him that much past "liking" her -- I mean maybe he loves the idea of courting, marriage, sex soon, and a child soon, and Michaela allows all that.

Well he's between jobs -- even if he's starting a new one in a week or two, lots of men use vacation/down time to grow a beard or to grow it out. And before he met Jill, he wore his hair natural, falling on his forehead like that. It was Jill who told him she liked it styled up that caused him to start gelling it -- they showed him when he was walking out the door to propose and he was saying that he wanted to get his hair how Jill likes it but doesn't have gel. So now that he isn't working -- he's probably taking a break from hair style and beard trimming since he has no place to go.

Doesn't Ben work for JB still? I'm guessing that means that JB expects him to show up at the house a few days a week, so that JB can create some task for him like clearing brush or cleaning toilets or whatever. Most of the time I'm guessing Ben is just hanging out at the house since I doubt there is 8 hrs of work per day -- or even per week. So I'm guessing Jessa comes along to hang with him and to "fellowship" with Jinger. I mean Jill would spend 40 hrs a week in Derick's cube at WMT if she could.

Ok I stand corrected -- agreed, it is likely that if you don't actively prevent pregnancy but also aren't trying to get pregnant every cycle, you'll likely only have 6-10 kids, not 19. So Guinn is ok. Yet Cathy must have done something to prevent. Cathy must be stunned if she thinks about the "example" she provided to her sons re women vs. what Derick chose to marry. I mean he was raised by a well educated woman who managed to become a corporate executive while having a family life. By the sounds of it, she and Derick's dad had a marriage that was likely a partnership - she has said that while the boys were young, Derick's dad worked nights on the police force so they could have a parent home with the boys at times while Cathy was working. And then when she was hit with the tragic loss of her spouse, she was strong enough to finish raising teen boys on her own. And then her son marries a woman who thinks a woman's only role is popping out as many babies as she can, while remaining as uneducated and dependent on her husband as possible while still complaining if her husband isn't with her 40 hrs a week bc he has to - you know - earn a living. And not only does he marry such a woman, he decides she and her family's ways are better than his own family's ways and jumps right in -- whether it's filming the TV show or buying used and saving he difference or getting her pregnant on the honeymoon or taking a house from his father in law even knowing that he'd be beholden to the family even more or quitting the corporate job that he had said was his "dream" in a mere yr and a half. I have a feeling it's been a long yr and a half for Cathy and Dan since the Duggars arrived on the scene.

Agreed. I work in law dealing with corporate contracts (thought not for media/television), and I'd be shocked if TLC would draft a contract in such a way that would say -- we will pay you whether the series goes forward or not. TV studios change their minds all the time when a better script comes along or when they do a pilot/1-2 episodes of a show, realize there is no viewer or sponsor interest and cut their losses. I highly doubt you get paid out on your contract in full unless you filmed a full season and all of it aired. Now -- in this case where any spin off could get dropped before filming even starts (I assume they haven't filmed or not much anyway), I imagine they get nothing or a small amount of compensation for the filming already done. Derick is the only one who could have an argument (if it's true) that he quit his job at WMT in reasonable reliance on the TLC job. But even then it's a long shot. Any case that would go forward would have an aspect of what did Derick do to defray his damages - sure you quit due to TLC, but when TLC told you the show was over -- did you do anything to mitigate your damages? Did you look for another job or try to get your old one back -- or did you just sue TLC and sit there assuming you'd get the contract value? Reasonable reliance can be a tough argument to win on -- for the same reason that there's always a risk that you accept a job offer, quit your job, go to your new employer on day 1, and they decide they have no job for you; it happens but there's little you can do to force the new employer to take you or pay you. I think they mean that only for THEIR family and other fundie families. As in -- Michelle is so great, what boy wouldn't want to find a girl just like her. With Cathy Dillard -- they're probably thinking -- well it's no wonder Derick married into OUR perfect Godly family so that we could show him the truth, the light, and the way, I mean what Godly young man would want to marry a heathen like that woman -- wearing pants, sporting short hair, working as a VP at a fortune 500, leading teams of MEN - gasp - at work, and daring to limit her family to TWO. No clue what they think of Guinn. I mean she is fundie -- but clearly she seems to have an interest in raising her own kids and knowing them, seems unopposed to education at least at some level -- given that Ben got an AA degree, and likely used BC at some point given that she only has 7-8 kids. While she may not be as objectionable as Cathy, she certainly isn't the model wife like Michelle.

Totally agree. A degree plus 1 year of experience is NOTHING. There are accounting folks out there with 20 or 30 years of experience, so no one is going to be tripping over a former reality star in 2022 bc he has a degree and a whole YEAR of experience and needs to get back into a corporate gig because he has 8 kids to support and TLC is long gone. For his professional career and his family's financial stability, I sincerely hope he is leaving WMT to go to some kind of smaller accounting shop where he may have more flexibility to live the Duggar lifestyle -- rather than quitting altogether to go to Nepal and/or film another TLC show with the thought of "oh well I can always go back if I need to, I have a degree and experience." Frankly ask any professional woman out there -- I know plenty who had 10 yrs of professional experience, took 5 yrs off to be with their young kids, and found it extremely hard to get hired again -- despite their decade of experience; I'm not saying it's impossible, but when 10 yrs of experience doesn't get you instant offers in your field, a yr isn't going to be that great for you.

I haven't followed this super closely but when did Derick leave WMT? Isn't it possible he gave 2 weeks notice -- which is what you do in most (though not all) corporate work places so that you can wrap things up for your manager rather than just running out the door and saying "good luck with my projects" -- prior to the Josh scandal becoming news and then his last day fell after the scandal had hit? He/Jill may have thought -- no big deal, he'll take a few years off for TLC, travel to Nepal, being home with blessing number 2 through 7 at least, and then if he ever wants or needs to, he can always go back -- he has an accounting degree and experience. And then the Josh thing broke, they thought "holy $hit," he tried to rescind his resignation bc he knew TLC was no longer a sure thing, and WMT said no? I mean given how much time he takes off and just the general distraction and Duggar hoopla, WMT may have been grateful that he resigned on his own and weren't feeling charitable enough to say -- oh, things changed, ok you can just keep working. Would love to hear what Cathy is thinking about Derick being done with WMT in less than 18 months. I can't see her being ok with a son having the excuse of "I need to quit my job to see my child 24-7." Cathy was a successful professional who still raised kids -- I think ending her WMT career around the Vice President level -- definitely senior management. She might have expected her son to follow a similar path professionally, even though nothing in his personal life will look like hers when he's having a kid per year. Just goes to show how much Jill and the Duggars have changed her son; he gave an interview to the college newspaper when he became Pistol Pete -- probably not more than 5-7 yrs at this point -- and in it they asked him various questions and one of them was re his dream job. He said his dream job was working for a multinational like WMT. Guess that dream didn't suit Jilly Muffin so he had to quit.

I get what you're saying and I agree that likely most of the kids aren't particularly high IQ/high intelligence because those kinds of things manifest themselves even in the most repressive of environments. But as for them seeming like inarticulate zombies who can't go off script bc they can't string a sentence together on their own-- maybe -- but I also see a family where the kids are scared of the parents and scared of saying the wrong thing and being subject to reprogramming camp or the prayer closet or God forbid being the one that makes TLC go away and thus is hated by the parents forever. When you see the Bates and the Willises -- you no doubt have families who are fundy and have the same crazy beliefs -- yet they seem like close loving families in which to grow up. The Bates kids have no problem talking back to each other and saying "well if you don't like my cooking, cook for your damn self," or making fun of their dad's jeans or whatever. Those kids know they are 100% loved and thus aren't scared of saying or doing the wrong thing or angering their parents. A Bates kid could say (and I think Alyssa did say) -- I don't want that many kids, 4 is enough for me (or 2 or none) and I'm fairly certain they wouldn't be sent to reprogramming camp. Meanwhile Jinger so much as expressed that she'd love to live in a big city one day, and Michelle jumped all over it the next day with -- oh NO that's not what she meant, she means a town with a Walmart -- that's what she considers a big city. I'm pretty sure Jinger was in trouble at home and spent some time in the prayer closet for even mentioning that she'd like to live some place where men shack up with women w/o a wedding ring or men can be seen holding hands with other men. Some of it may be intelligence, but some of it -- esp for the younger ones -- is about not knowing what to say to stick to the party line.

Since he is a C level celebrity locally, when he left -- at his exit interview -- there may have been a discussion of what WMT would or would not say about him in the future. The Duggar circus is national news, so I'm sure WMT's HR based right there has heard about it and doesn't want to end up in a situation where a few yrs from now Derick makes allegations that WMT maligned him/his work ethic/whatever and that's hurt his job prospects. It's quite possible they told him, we will put up an email auto response that says "Derick Dillard is no longer affiliated with WMT, please contact so-and-so in Accounting." Derick -- while he has sold 99.9% of his brain to the Duggars -- may have had a fleeting moment where he thought -- wait if my friends/professors etc. email me at work and get that, they'll think I got fired. He may have asked if WMT can say anything about "other employment." It's likely HR ran it by legal and their employment lawyer said fine but nothing more -- an auto response referencing another opportunity and if anyone calls, all they get is "he worked here from x date to y date in the accounting department."

It's odd to be on Twitter and following 12 people (just looked at Jessa's), most of whom are your family. I'm not suggesting that it's never been done, but it's odd and does suggest a lack of social life and a lack of interest in known anything beyond their family's world. What about their "best" friends the Bates or the Querys or whatever other mega families they fellowship with? Most of the older Bates kids are on Twitter -- suggests to me there's not even one real friendship there and they get together when their parents load up everyone on the bus and say "let's drop in on Gil." I realize "celebrities" can't follow anyone controversial -- but there's not a single real celebrity, brand, or company they're curious about and would want to know more? How about the local news station or Fox News -- too controversial? How about the Weather Channel -- might be good to have another means of finding out weather during tornado season, no?

Any idea why Josh and Anna moved back to Arkansas rather than Florida? Was it just bc they have the house there, or do we think JB was actively on the phone demanding that Josh return right this second? I get why they left DC -- he was only there for a job and once that job ended, there was no point staying in an expensive east coast city (even the suburbs of one) when you don't have income. I feel like Josh returning means JB gets to run his/Anna's life forever while gloating about how he "saved" them. I suspect he'll give Josh a car lot or another business or involve him with his real estate ventures (though I have no clue what that involves on a daily basis -- if you're leasing out warehouses, once they're leased -- you're pretty much sitting tight until the lessor decides to bolt; presumably you don't/can't afford to buy property daily). If not that, I can see JB hooking Josh up with a job through a connection -- whether a Christian small business that agrees Josh and the Duggars were wronged or some low level aspiring Arkansas politician who feels the same way. If they had gone down to Florida -- nothing would have been handed to them bc the Kellers aren't rich, but they would have been able to create a life for themselves -- whatever that may look like post-DC -- without JB having a hand in it. I have recently gotten to like Josh and Anna as a couple -- it felt like the move to DC brought them closer as a couple probably bc they both left rural small towns surrounded by family for the first time, got to DC and probably said "holy $hit" and realized all they had was each other. Now back in Arkansas -- it'll be about putting JB first again, rather than putting their own marriage first -- which likely needs a lot of repair since I'm guessing Anna didn't take Josh's confession of "I had a lot of complicated feelings as a young boy" to mean what it turned out to mean.

I don't think we can know which kids are smart and which aren't in that family bc they are all so painfully behind; when you aren't taught the basics in 1st and 2nd grade, you don't magically catch up at age 22. Even if she isn't smart, I can see Jill as a "trying hard to please the teacher" type -- if she had gone to regular school; those kids get by bc they tend to get a lot of extra help/one on one coaching from teachers. As for why midwifery -- what choice was there? In that family the girls can either (i) stay home and cook and clean for their siblings until a dude comes along; or (ii) try their hand at an occupation that will only put them in contact with females -- without any male in sight anywhere. The only professions I can think of where the only clients you'll ever have will be female have to do with gynecology and birthing babies. Since she had no where near the high school education she'd need to go to college pre-med or to nursing school -- she had to take the "fundie lite" road into that field, which involves basically being an apprentice for a midwife.

Who knows if that happened, but if it did -- you go to Nepal and live the way other missionaries live and do whatever you're tasked to do there. You won't have fat paychecks rolling into your direct deposit from TLC, but I imagine whichever mission group is taking you over there is providing you with lodging and food. So you take said lodging and food, thank God for it, do your work, come back to the U.S. and start over with another corporate job and hopefully a little bit of wisdom re how to handle said corporate job. Or you scrap the mission and frantically job search for the next few weeks/months while trying really really hard not to impregnate your wife on whatever day you can first have sex again.

Where did the idea that they’re going to Nepal for the medium/long term come from? Sorry if it’s been covered, but I’ve been disconnected from TV and internet lately. I realize they are dumb, but are they dumb enough to consider taking a 2 month old – how likely isn’t even fully immunized yet – to a developing country recently destroyed in an earthquake?? As for Walmart, sadly I’m not at all surprised -- I had initially predicted a Walmart stint of 12-18 months max. I know people here disagreed, but I’m sorry in 2015 in corporate America when you have no work experience and come into a Fortune 500 and in the first yr take every single form of vacation, comp time, FMLA, paternity leave, unpaid leave and whatever else – sticking the rest of your team with work that invariably would have been assigned to you if you had been there – you’re not setting yourself up for a long term future at that company. Even if it’s your right to take every single one of those days off -- colleagues tire of always have extra work, and managers start to question whether you’re committed to your job or whether it’s just a hobby. I think if he had been taking time off for something career-developing – say an MBA or a masters in accounting – people may have been annoyed but would have realized that it was a professional activity. The same cannot be said for interviews and photo shoots for your wife’s family’s TV show. I’m not suggesting he was fired – I think he likely wasn’t. I do think someone in management may have given him the heads up that any more time would seriously hurt him (w the undertone that he has spent enough time w that show – given everything going on with Josh), and he may have decided to move on. I’d be thrilled if he came home that day, told Jill and said – look I’ve done enough with your family and TLC; I have talked to a recruiter in accounting and I have interviews coming up in Oklahoma City, Atlanta, and Dallas and if I get any of those jobs – we are moving and building a life for ourselves independent of your family and TLC. I mean he is marketable – an accounting major with a yr’s experience at Walmart and the graduate of a big southern state school that likely has alums everywhere in the south. Realistically though – I think he’ll take a few weeks (months? If they do a short Nepal mission) off and then his Linkedin will be updated to show that he is working at some small business in Arkansas; likely it will be a Christian business owned by a friend of JB or a fellow cult member, which needs some book keeping help and recognizes that Derick’s first obligation will be to his family (i.e. TLC). Such businesses do exist in those kinds of areas – I believe Chad Paine works as an office/finance manager at metals company near the Bates’s hometown and they have said a friend of theirs owns the company. I take it Derick has found a similar set up in Arkansas.

And I love Jessa's statement of "he was a boy in puberty who was too curious about girls." Newsflash -- all 14 yr old boys are curious about girls. 99.9% of them realize they can't cop a feel of their sister -- neither teen sister w breast nor a 5 yr old baby sister. They find ways around this; some try to have girlfriends and mess around with them. However -- many don't/can't get a girl to agree to this -- so they may cop a feel of some girl at a dance or just stare at women from a distance or turn to magazines or whatever. The vast vast majority understand that sisters are off limits and they could not even view a sister sexually.

Just saw the Jill and Jessa interview -- as I've been traveling and away from TV for a while. That was so totally scripted. Though you'd think they'd script it to be consistent with the parents. At one point they said that all the victims went through professional counseling and so did Josh. Uh -- really -- bc their parents said it wasn't a certified counselor and was some religious/Christian counseling. And I totally didn't believe Jessa in the end when she said -- I sat down with my siblings and said, the world can say what they want but we have harmony in our family, we're not feuding, and we love each other like crazy. Something tells me the older siblings are feuding with Josh -- esp Jessa and maybe Ben. I feel like Jessa put up with the family BS for yrs even though she didn't believe; she rode it out until a boy looked at her and then hitched her cart to his wagon and was done. Except she and her beau have no real means of support, so I suspect she either says or gives her siblings and father the strong impression of -- it's bc of my courtship and marriage that we're getting extra seasons out of the show about our weirdo family, so you all better not eff this up for me and Ben. And now that the show is over and all she can hope for is a spin off AND Josh is back in Arkansas -- I wouldn't be surprised if there have been some screaming matches with Jessa going off on Josh about how his perverted ways messed everything up and cost her and Ben money. She seems like she doesn't give a f--- about keeping sweet anymore now that she can just leave with Ben and won't be subject to scrubbing the toilets or re-programming camp or whatever for speaking up.

Looks like Josh is back in DC -- there was a shot of him on Extra on NBC carrying Michael through National Airport. Didn't say anything besides "no comment" (I don't think -- I didn't hear anything), though he was smirking/didn't look particularly upset or nervous or anything.

I haven't followed what the Seewalds, Dillards, Jessa or Jill have said -- so if anyone could post, that would be great. So Mike Seewald really thinks it's people who were eagerly awaiting the Duggar family's fall that are the cause of this?? How about the teenager who molested his sisters? And I love how he had to mention that this didn't happen bc Josh was repressed. After all if you're not repressed -- "Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society." I get it unwed mothers, abortions, and STDs are bad -- and yet somehow I consider than more positive than a brother touching a sister. I'd much rather that a guy get a girl pregnant and walk away -- leaving her either a single mom or with an abortion -- bc at least it's likely that when sex occurred (i) it wasn't between siblings; and (ii) it was consensual. Is it me or does Mike refuse to acknowledge the nastiness of this between brother and sisters??

I always wondered why Josh was never close with any of his siblings and why the siblings generally seem so uncomfortable or formal with each other. The 4 older girls are close and you hear them interact in casual ways that you'd expect of siblings, and JD and Joseph seem to hang out some. But I always thought that it was odd that Josh as the oldest son was left out of the sibling relationships; I mean the only sibling we've seen him interact with in a fun way is Josiah -- and that's a pretty big age difference of probably 8-10 years who has probably heard over the years re an "incident" that Josh repented for but didn't know the details. Contrast that to Zach Bates -- he seems to interact with all of the siblings in his age group and has substantive things to say about them in a way that an oldest brother would.

I know they won't do it because they don't think anything is wrong in their family structure -- but if I were the parents today, I'd be calling a meeting to specifically talk to the kids about what Josh did. None of this "he made a mistake and we're all imperfect beings and God forgives," but specifically saying "Josh touched the vag and breasts of 5 of the girls in this room and that is never acceptable. He's still our brother and son and we love him, but he and Anna need to work through whatever counseling they may need and decide where there will be living/working etc." In the meantime, I'd enforce some strict standards re normal life around that house. Every kid in that house better be working or going to school -- regular public school. JB should get his ass down to the district and enroll the 10 or so school aged kids for the fall. Get them all assessed and if it means that a 16 yr old is at 8th grade level -- well I guess he'll be plenty busy all summer doing tutoring and classes with someone other than the Querys to catch up. If the kids over 18 aren't going to school -- get a job; doesn't matter if it's at the grocery store or digging ditches. These kids are entirely too separated from society and have learned nothing from anyone but their parents -- and obviously their parents didn't get it right. I'm not saying that Josh wouldn't have done this if he went to regular school, but if he had had regular interaction with guys his age -- he would have learned how big of a deal it is to touch any female. He would have known that so-and-so are holding hands in 5th grade, he would have heard guys talk about "going around the bases" in middle school and high school and how much the guys want to and many/most girls don't allow it. It would have occurred to him that touching a boob is a big freaking deal -- you don't just go grab your sisters' cause you're curious, you're not a 4 yr old playing dr.

There's so much I don't get about this but mainly -- the Duggars go on and on about how THEIR way is better. Their kids know God. Those other kids -- they have purple hair, are sitting next to girls in college, and gasp -- dating. So how is it that their Godly 14 yr old got into touching his sisters' junk?? While the vast majority of his godless heathen peers (who he didn't socialize with -- but other 14 yr olds in that town) who maybe only went to church for Christmas, Easter, and the occasional wedding -- figured out that touching sisters or any girl without her consent was a no-no. I'm fairy sure most godless heathens don't tell their sons "now don't ever touch your sister's boobs" yet the sons figure it out. That life he coveted for himself -- in DC, away from his family, making a nice six figure living -- that's over and he's never getting that back. Sure he'll work again in time, but it'll have to be for JB or some contact of JB who understands and forgives and forgets. This family already has few friends, but I imagine the Bates are distancing themselves even further -- since who wants to be associated with this kind of thing -- esp when you have your own young kids AND you're also relying on some TV income and don't want the taint to somehow spread to you or all mega families.

They had all become too dependent on TLC money and fame and in their heart of hearts knew it couldn't last forever. There are too many other similar but more likeable families out there -- from the Bates to the Willis'. With this news, those families just got a whole lot more likeable and if I were Ben, Derick, or Josiah -- I'd be thinking about a solid plan to separate from Duggar world and create a career/life for my own wife/girlfriend without any expectation of seeing another dollar from JB or TLC again.

Yeah -- I mean what woman wants anyone to be thinking about her breasts and vagina and who may or may not have touched them and in what manner. I will say though -- if they aren't scarred for life and scared of men forever -- today it just became less likely that Jana, Jinger, and Joy Anna will end up with fundie husbands. The "reputable" fundie families out there will want to distance themselves from this shitshow and from girls that they will now consider "damaged goods." That means there's a huge chance of dating and finding a Christian who likes you for who you are, does not care what your brother did, and will not expect you to give him a child every yr. If Jana, Joy, or Jinger want it -- they will end up with a regular husband, 2.5 kids and a house in some other city far from NW Arkansas.

I'm not suggesting that boys don't molest in other countries -- I'm suggesting that the Duggars don't have the market cornered on being sexually repressed. Practically every 14 yr old boy out there is repressed -- all he wants is sex and rarely -- if ever -- can he get it. He handles it. Whether that's by jerking off or sneaking porn or finding a friend who will "consent" -- in any event the vast majority realize that touching a sister or a cousin is NEVER an option.