cereality

I don't mean to suggest food insecurity of the type that happens due to poverty -- bc once they got on TV, they weren't poor anymore. But I do think there was some food scarcity simply bc mom and dad were checked out (AND they didn't teach table manners so then you have feral adults licking plates). The home responsibilities fell on the older girls when they were just kids. So of course it was easier for them to do things that were casserole style --2 dishes of cream of whatever soup mixed with canned chicken or tater tots or pasta and throw it into the oven and 30 min later, dinner is done. Great. I don't blame them. Why should THEY have been the ones thinking -- hmm this is mostly carbs, teens need more protein/bigger portions, lets add in some fresh veggies, let's keep some heavier snacks around the house etc. That's mom and dad's job and they didn't do it. Add to that a life schedule that appears to consist of people just wandering about, eating whenever -- and you have a very grab whatever food, whenever it's available -- mentality. We've seen kids lunging for fruits, fruit snacks, people mixing oatmeal packets in cold water, JB eating cold veggies straight out of a can etc. So of course when you're used to that kind of fending for yourself and you have no manners -- when you see your wife hasn't finished her soup or her coffee, you're going to grab that bc why let it go to waste, who knows when the next meal/snack will be provided. In contrast as similar fundie as they are, the Bates house seems much different. Sure the older girls (before they were married off) did the cooking there too, but we see plenty of scenes where Kelly is saying -- we need X pounds of chicken; we need this many potatoes baked/mashed; let's make sure there's this amount of ice cream bc we will have x people here; we're going to bring sandwiches for everyone to this place etc. It's just that Kelly manages that household and doesn't expect her 16 yr old girls to notice that their 14 yr old brother is suddenly eating 4 pieces of chicken in a sitting so we're going to start making x pounds more meat per dinner.

IDK if I watched the same episode as you all bc I watched on TLC’s website – but the new one online shows JoeKen’s honeymoon and the start of Si’s courtship but not Si’s wedding or anything. First impressions – Si doesn’t look as miserable with Lauren as he did in the still photos of his wedding. But IDK I had the same impression of his feelings for Lauren as I did when I watched Austin and Brandon Keilen. They need to become husbands, fathers, and headships, so any fundie girl is fine for those purposes and if it isn’t this girl, it’d be some other one. IDK why I had that impression – just the things he said about her were along the lines of – she has a good head on her shoulders; wise; she comes from a big family with a lot of kids so “she knows how to deal with all that.” Um – yeah you really sound like you’re into it. Sounds like you need to have a fam to disprove the gay thing, so you’ll impregnate someone a half dozen times and then she’ll deal with “all that.” The relationship seems VERY surface level for people who purport to video chat for up to 5 HOURS at a time. I mean what do they really know about each other besides bible verses and that he is a dessert guy who hordes candy and she’s trying to make him into a clean eater bc she likes health food!? As for JoKen – I feel like a few years ago, every time there was a new courtship, we’d all say – THIS is the one. THIS person will come in and expose their Duggar spouse to a bit of open mindedness or travel or vegetables or a loving family life. And every time – nope – it’s the Duggar spouse that brings the outsider into their fundie realm (maybe not Jing and Jer but the rest). Well watching JoKen, I realized that if any member of that family is to modernize, it will NOT happen in one of the boy marriages bc JB has raised his sons to be as herp derp as him. No Joseph -- salad is NOT lettuce; there ARE salads that don’t have lettuce in them; Europeans understand the bisou and she wasn’t going to kiss you on the lips; if she did kiss you on the lips, the world would not have ended even though you have YOUR WOMAN now; breaking plates in Greece isn’t some new fangled weirdo tradition; not everyone in Greece is cousins with each other. Good God. While he isn’t loud and obnoxious like this family, he is just as unexposed and herp derp. Kendra is a bit better – she even said she likes talking to others and can make conversation with anyone and then proceeded to talk with the woman sitting next to her at that sky restaurant thing; I know not all dudes are as talkative so maybe Joe didn’t want to participate, but could he really not have listened and nodded along instead of eating all his food and then all of hers too? Same with the morning coffee, he finishes his and then drinks hers. I wonder if the home was/is so food insecure that they feel like when there is extra food that someone hasn’t finished, they MUST grab it? You know that Greek woman had to be shocked and thinking the worst of small town America – not to many westerners out there who are as young as Kendra and have their whole lives in front of them but are neither in school or working, but rather waiting to have as many babies as the Lord gives them!?

That's Bobby's parents house -- we've seen it before for his graduation party. So it just looks like an at home dinner party, though given that it's clearly at night and there's a 2nd cake and rented tables and chairs, clearly they fed their guests a meal. Though Bobby's parents also fed everyone a full dinner at the rehearsal dinner in Tenn. too. Just looking at their home etc. on the show, and the fact that they only have 3 kids, they're clearly a middle/upper middle class family. I don't think they necessarily understand or appreciate the country, fundie, I have 19 kids on a budget ways that their son has married into. That being said, I don't think ANYONE throws as chintzy of a party as JB does. Even amongst not well to do fundies -- Anna's parents even fed the guests as we saw trays and trays of chicken salad, pasta etc. It's possible that the Bates didn't do as much for Tori's wedding bc she was going to have a "real" reception in FL and bc she acted like the reception was SUCH an inconvenience (she walks out of the wedding moments after the vows, turns to Bobby and says, let's go say hi to the people and get out of here -- and then proceeds to feed him cake with a knife bc she didn't see a fork and couldn't wait a second for someone to hand her one; so I could see her saying - a meal? No way that adds an hr, let's do cake + punch fundie style and I can go get it on). But we did see Kelly planning for Michaela's wedding and she was going over how much BBQ chicken they were going to need. So not suggesting that fundies throw a party feeding guests steak and salmon, but other fundies at least do casual food so guests that have spent hours driving, spent money on gas and maybe a hotel, are at least being fed ONE meal. JB OTOH takes the approach of -- leave your gifts over there, head on out to the parking lot for a dixie cup of ice cream, and thanks for coming, y'all, see you at the next one! I know there have been after parties for some/all of the weddings -- Si, Jessa -- come to mind, but reality is their own family is so huge that I bet the people going back to the house are just their own family, aunts/uncles/cousins/grandparents, a few special fundie families like the Bates and Paines, and the other 800 guests can just make their way to the exits. So he still isn't feeding everyone they invite to the weddings they host as open calls.

Really -- where are the pics of that one? I also imagine it was nicer bc it was paid for by Bobby's family who are somewhat more middle class/well to do. IDK though with TLC money, can't you get TLC to pay for any kind of reception you want, or no? I mean maybe not bc if there were TLC money involved then why were Jill/Jessa/Jinger's receptions so chintzy? You'd think it'd be in TLC's interest to pay for a good party bc it's a LOT of filming/episodes -- more than another made up craft or home improvement project and viewers are more likely to tune in for a wedding than JD building another playground for his siblings.

In uber conservative cultures, aren’t weddings thrown by the bride’s family? Isn’t that why we’ve been treated to a half dozen Duggar girl weddings where the reception consisted of parking lots with dixie cups of ice cream in November or cupcakes/candy but no actual food like a piece of chicken or pasta? While Josh’s disaster of a marriage actually started with a real meal? I’m not suggesting it was fancy but Anna’s parents at least sprang for chicken salad, pasta salad, cake etc. so guests who had traveled 10+ hrs were given an actual meal. Not that a bride’s parents can’t be just as cheap as JB – from the pics we’ve seen, Si’s wife’s family only sprang for sheet cake, cupcakes, and candy – though maybe they were thinking, no need to impress the inlaws, we know this is what JB would be doing for his own daughter too. So if Abby’s family is throwing the wedding, can’t they make it a put together affair like her sister’s wedding? Plus the groom’s family usually has minimal involvement with a reception anyway, so the Duggar bus pulls up to the reception, there’s a floor in the middle – they cluelessly think ok the hall must just be built this way NBD, and JD and Abby are announced by a DJ, come running in, and start dancing their first dance – what exactly will JB and Michelle do? Drag their 27 yr old son who are already left and cleaving off the dance floor by the neck?? Doing it this way does risk a lot of stank faces, but who cares? I’m from a conservative, eastern, no dancing culture. So the first few of my generation’s weddings (all cousins being born and raised in America), there were dance floors and yeah – the aunts/uncles/older relatives definitely had their stank faces on and talked openly about how inappropriate it was. Fast forward just 5 yrs, they go into weddings expecting it and don’t bitch about it. The dance floors are still hit or miss and sometimes will be empty-ish at such weddings, but whatever if the bride wants it, it’s there; there is at least some music and liveliness to the weddings as opposed to our previous no music, no alcohol (still none of that) parties that had the excitement of a doctors appointment. In this case, this family may be in for a shock and maybe they’d leave early in protest. But I just think they’d stand there with those condescending looks of theirs – esp Jessa and Jill; Derick and Bin would be trying to stop their sons from running onto the dance floor bc they need to use EVERY opportunity to publicly show how religious their home is; meanwhile in their heart of hearts, Bin and Jana would probably want to dance but wouldn’t bc RELIGION and JB. But I think JD and Abby can get some commitment from Abby’s family to dance some – at least that sister and her husband; plus Jinger and Jeremy bc Jer probably wanted a dance floor at his own wedding and didn’t push it and he likely grew up dancing at a 1000 italian catholic weddings in Philadelphia and Jing just enjoys spiting the family; plus Zach and Whit Bates who are going a bit fundie lite-er these days. That’s enough for it not to be an awkwardly empty dance floor.

I don’t think it’s just about having a job, I think it’s about having a job that has you interacting with people from all walks of life and holding onto the job for more than 3 seconds (ahem – Alyssa). I think the only ones who meet this are Zach and Josie – and amongst the inlaws John, Kelton, and Chad. When someone comes to Josie for a haircut or calls Zach when they’re stranded on the side of the road or calls John, Kelton, Chad for an HVAC, water or remodel issue, they can’t exactly say – hmm well have you received Jesus and then decide whether to take the job based on that answer; I mean I guess Chad could since he works for himself, but the rest of them have employers that are looking to make $$ and/or have government restrictions on these things. That continuous, prolonged interaction with others is what lets you realize that people are people and you can be friends with them and interact with them normally whether they share your faith or not. For Zach and Josie, not only is it about interacting with clients, it’s also about their coworkers. Most jobs you aren’t busy for every single second of the day, which means you chat with coworkers and over time learn about how they live their lives and guess what they aren’t total immoral weirdos just bc they may not be as faithful as you, may have gone to regular school, have friends or even a spouse of a different race, watch TV/movies, date and even sleep with people before marriage, wear pants, have a mortgage etc. It allows them broad exposure to the world that Nathan, Brandon etc. don’t have – he works at a fundie/ALERT type of flight school, teaching other fundie men to fly/ministering to other fundies, where exactly are they interacting with anyone at all different than themselves? Bobby is likely going down the same path with “ministry.” Trace/Law are kind of at a crossroads depending on what they end up doing – a secular job vs. a fundie facing. Sure Law must have exposure to all kinds of things being in music in Nashville, but honestly I don’t know how much of that is his full time life vs. going to Nashville to record/write with the 1-2 fundies there he knows (Andy somebody) and then every so often putting together a show at some other fundie church in the country.

Man being married to a Bates princess will certainly age a guy. He doesn’t look 31 in that pic, he looks at least 41 with the bags under his eyes, wrinkles around his eyes, and a “smile” that is basically just showing teeth. Erin has 0 awareness or else she may notice that every time she talks about the pregnancy with the 3rd kid – including in tonight’s episode and extensively in one of the earlier ones this season where they were setting up the nursery “haven” – Chad sits there and “giggles” uncomfortably, while she coos about how happy she’ll be with a baby in her arms – bc apparently her 1 and 2 yr old aren’t babies. Then he chimes in with the requisite statements re 3 kids WOW, Lord’s blessings, so worried about delivery but I’m sooooo happy. Uh yeah Chad we can see that, we believe you, really . . . . And looks like Bobby is on his way to becoming Chad 2.0 but more useless. They’ve been married for what 6-7 mos? And when tonight’s episode was filmed it would’ve been what, 3-4 months, max – maybe even less bc they were talking about it finally starting to be the end of winter? He already looks to me like he’s lost some weight on his face. When they were courting/engaged, he had the start of a man gut; nothing terrible but he just looked like someone who didn’t work out and could get away with eating whatever and still looking good bc of his young age. He had a jacket on in tonight’s episode so couldn’t see the gut, but his face looked noticeably thinner to me when they were sitting in that gas station deli joint talking to Gil and Kelly (who he still calls Mr. and Mrs. Bates post marriage) about his youth pastor job in Nashville and how he’d be chaplain for some Christian school and Tori will “try to do something” at the school!? Uh sweetie either you’re a teacher or you’re not and given that you’re pregnant IRL, no school is going to hire someone for YEAR ONE of teaching who then says – oh yeah but I’m only coming Sept to Nov and then I’m on maternity leave and we’ll try again next yr. Looks like being married to Princess Tori is aging Bobby already and I have to imagine that Tori does NOT cook – and it’s not like they’re rolling in cash so I’m not sure that they’re eating out nightly either.

I was writing fast and didn't literally mean Nathan was qualified to be a fighter pilot for the Air Force. LOL. I realize that Air Force pilots - whether sexy fighter jets or day to day cargo planes - are officers often from the Air Force or Naval Academies or otherwise college grads from ROTC programs with highly competitive follow up testing/training to actually qualify as pilots. Pretty sure the fundie dining room school doesn't qualify you to even survive one semester of freshman year at any US military academy (where you are studying engineering and calculus and physics), let alone graduate from one with high enough marks to actually be commissioned as a pilot. And I know Delta/USAir etc. are similar competitive roads and the pilot ranks are FULL of guys who flew for the military for 20 years and retired into a commercial pilot job. I mean -- if you know you like planes, being around planes etc. -- why not ENLIST? That's all they are qualified to do -- I think they do have GEDs. You do mechanics, learn all about planes, airport operations etc. and it can be a decent career for life with good benefits, pensions etc. and I know in some branches (IDK about Air Force) there are non commissioned officers, so if you follow the path of degrees/certificates required which the military pays for, you can work your way up to NCO. Or you take your mechanics etc. training for 5 years and leave and go be an airline mechanic anywhere from American to FedEx -- all these companies hire TONS of them and it's good pay, benefits, some are union gigs; similarly you can do airport operations at like any airport anywhere though I think mechanics make more due to specialized skills. As I think of it -- I believe FedEx is even a Tennessee HQ in Memphis -- you train wherever the military sends you but 5 years later you are back in your home state for life if you snag a FedEx mechanic job. In any event these kinds of jobs allow you near planes all day, and you can save your money and do your flying hobby/flying to serve the Lord thing on weekends and on vacations!? IDK to me that sounds like a more legit career path than fundie flight school where you're training countless other fundie men to fly for no apparent reason since God forbid anyone take an actual job and make something of their career.

On top of being messed up because a woman dared to reject him, I also get the sense this sense that Nathan is the slightest bit “jealous” of younger brother Trace going to college and having all these “opportunities.” While the Bates allowed all the kids to go to college, I feel like with the older kids, it was much more taking class here or there and then dropping out for a job or marriage; I don’t think Law and Nathan went at all. With Carlin, Tori, Trace, Josie, there was much more “encouragement” of college – i.e. finishing a program before/after getting married rather than dropping out; Trace initially saying he didn’t want to go and Kelly telling him he really should go for a year and then he got some meaningless bible certificate in a year or two. It’s not that Nathan missed some ivy league type experience, but he’s made sideways comments to Trace lately re – you’re in college, just find yourself a girl; or the whole lecturing of, you’re finishing college, you need to decide what to do with your life. Who knows maybe he’s feeling a bit locked in as a “pilot” – and jealous that his 21 year old brother can do whatever he wants. Reality is Nathan is not exactly over the hill at 24, though given how poorly educated these people are, maybe he does already feel “stuck” in a job with no options. More than education, I do think he is totally jealous of Trace being in a situation where he’s around girls, while he’s in his fake flight training with 99% of people around him being men. His sisters have said that Trace has made a ton of friends in college and girls are always asking about him. Doesn’t seem like he’s courting yet, but when he’s ready financially – even if it takes a year or 2 – I don’t think he’ll have any problem calling up one of his old classmates and asking her out or one of his guy friends (who I suspect he’ll continue to hang with even though he’s not in school anymore) and get set up with their sisters. OTOH – it seems like the siblings think Law and Nathan are annoying af and aren’t gonna do much to inflict them on some girl. Erin – the family matchmaker – so much as said that she wouldn’t set them up, irrespective of the fact that she picked up Evan from off the street for her sister; it’s not like she has particularly high standards for men but even she thinks Law and Nathan don’t match up. And Tori, Carlin, Josie, and Katie just look annoyed af every time Nathan speaks – usually criticizing the sisters for their hair or clothes or whatever – so I imagine they’re all playing the – sorry I don’t have any single girl friends – card. And I think Nathan knows that he is neither good looking nor charming, so picking up a random girl at church (who probably stay away bc they know he’s an ass) or at a restaurant isn’t likely. So it’s possible that 24 year old Nathan is really starting to worry where he’ll meet a girl since the one girl who liked him ran away screaming. Interesting is that Zach is a good big brother who expresses concerns re his siblings – Jackson’s future; when Erin was miscarrying; Michaela’s baby issues etc., yet even he kind of mocks and stays away from Nathan. He commented in the last episode that he doesn’t know where Nathan came from bc no other kids are like him. Zach could sit him down and talk to him about letting the Ashley thing go, not blaming all women generally and realizing that he needs to work on making himself a better man etc. Yet bc Zach doesn’t need to be lectured to, he’s probably like – do what you want, you know it all . . . .

Right now of course not. But if your make believe fundie flight school (i.e. lessons with another fundie) makes you realize an acumen for flying, are you absolutely unable to go to a real flight school and/or get real certifications that the Air Force or American Airlines or some charter operation could view as real?? I mean how do you expect to make a living flying other fundies to spread the gospel?

I understand why fundies go into ministry obviously (or music – bc they’ll play music in their church they hope to work at/found) and construction. I mean construction/skilled trades/landscaping make sense bc you can build yourself a house, you can fix your fundie friends’ plumbing or put trees in their yard or whatever and sometimes you can even give these services away for free like by building a church because . . . ministry . . . . Though I have a hard time believing that when Gil gets a new contract for a tree job, he asks the person/company hiring him whether they’ve accepted Jesus??! I know they can say they only work for people who believe the same things they do, but reality is they don’t actually know; chances are most of their jobs are for Christians just bc they live in the Bible belt but how do they really know if someone is a closeted Buddhist that converted some years ago? But what exactly is the demand for fundie pilots? I know Nathan always says he’s flying to spread the gospel, but really?? Those tiny twin engine planes aren’t flying you anyplace where there are tons of Catholics or Muslims or Buddhists or whomever to be converted. They are flying you as far as Louisiana or Arkansas – guess what – there are fundies in those places already spreading the gospel. As far as we can tell, JD Duggar basically uses his pilots license to ferry around whatever sister is courting long distance and then to whatever rural town it is where they all buy their wedding dresses; now he’s ferrying himself around to visit his gf. Yet in that family – there’s JD and now Jeremiah piloting/learning to pilot. And in one of those irritating FB lives, Lawson said that in the Bates fam, Nathan flies and Trace, Law, Katie, Jackson, Warden, Isiah are all taking lessons. And Nathan says that he’s working at some school in Texas in teach other fundie young men to fly!? Uh – at this rate, why not put your skills to actual use and join the Air Force or get a job with a commercial airline/charter airline? Though as I say this, I kind of wonder if the business plan for many of these fundies is to pool resources and start a charter airline one day??

Noticed his suit/tie right away. Suit looks great and is tailored which is unlike the Duggars usually. But a long black tie? First I thought he’d go with a bow tie since he has the personality to pull it off. Second he’s the most fashion conscious of the brothers so you’d think he’d realize that even if the groomsmen are wearing black ties, the groom doesn’t. Usually grooms go with a white tie or a happy fun color (which the groomsmen match). He knew this. Was he in - I don’t care let’s just get it over with - mode when planning?

I found Josiah irritating as a preteen -- going on and on about how THEIR way was better than the rest of the world. I realize he isn't really like that anymore but he has that annoying fundie headship thing in him. Can't he just call up that part of his personality and use it to control the sex? She's so young and naïve and from such a repressed culture, isn't it possible that she'd believe it if he were to tell her -- he views sex for baby making so they'll have it when they need to try for another kid and/or maybe 1x/month beyond that? He's the headship and they're taught their job is to service their man -- if the man doesn't want it, what can they possibly do? Not suggesting that solves all problems if he's gay but that surely makes it a hell of a lot better if he doesn't have to get it on 4 nights/week in the newlywed years. And then as time goes on, they'll raise their kids and live like mostly celibate roommates and life will still be better for Josiah in the sense that he's out of the boys dorm and doesn't need a chaperone and can eat something besides TTC? And I can't imagine that his wife runs and tells anyone this is happening bc then it'd be admitting to her mom or whoever that her man has low T and doesn't want sex and/or doesn't find her sexy. I realize all this is awful for her since she can't divorce but it allows him to survive his life. Suffice it to say we won't be seeing a Bin and Jessa style honeymoon pic where they looked like they hadn't left the bed in 2 days bc they were too busy banging each other's brains out.

Agree the honeymoon didn't last long -- but it DID last thru the actual honeymoon. They looked awkward bc these people meet and marry in 15 min and know nothing about each other besides favorite bible verses. Tori Bates married Bobby -- and they are VERY much into each other -- know each other well for fundies as they were together for 1-2 yrs, texted 24-7 etc. -- and even they had awkward scenes on their honeymoon where Bobby says -- am I supposed to kiss you now? Bc they can't read each other's body language/signals yet. Imagine how much worse it is for Duggars whose courtships are way shorter and there isn't free communication since mama and daddy insist on reading texts. With Derick -- IDK I thought he looked happy (and tired and worried about his mom and at the rehearsal sad about his dad); despite all of that the happiness shone thru on his face and I thought esp when he saw Jill at the first look before the ceremony, he was ready to jump in there and hug and kiss. And I thought the same in their honeymoon video on the beach too. But I do agree that happiness went away FAST when they got home and he realized that she didn't know how to cook a vegetable and they got pregnant 3 min later.

Josiah could have a problem posing – but the pic where they’re standing by the cake is a candid and it doesn’t look particularly comfortable either; and the TLC video – come on this kid grew up on TLC and he has personality – he can turn it on. Even his day to day IG pics – many of which are posed – look happier; whether gay or not, I wonder if the enormity of marriage for the rest of his life was hitting him that day. I also wonder if he looks at Joseph who while much quieter than Josiah was very excited/emotional/physically into his wife on their wedding day – and Si is thinking, I should feel like THAT, why don’t I feel like THAT? Also, why the rush to marry, whether gay or not? He’s only 21, she’s only 18. As much as JB acts like a big swinging dick, reality is he hasn’t been able to marry off anyone who didn’t want to marry. Jana – 28 – not married and clearly he’s been unable to force her. JD – 28 – just started courting yesterday. And there hasn’t been any rush on boy weddings generally; JB looks to get the girls attached to a headship so they can start making babies and isn’t all that concerned if a boy marries 2 yrs later – or in JD’s case many yrs later – than what JB and Michelle consider optimal. If Josiah knew he wasn’t into it – why pursue it?? I realize he couldn’t have broken off the courtship bc JB and Michelle would freak out that he was unmarriable. But why enter the courtship at all when you know courtship leads to marriage in 10 minutes? Even if JB was pushing – ahem that girl is nice, she likes you – can’t you tell dad that your heart is still stuck on Marjorie and you need to pray that away first? Or the Lord isn’t leading you in Lauren’s direction yet but you’ll pray? If he is gay, I wonder why he was so happy with Marjorie? I only saw a few videos of theirs and they were obnoxiously goofy happy together. I feel like he could have made a marriage with her work, even if he truly didn’t like women. This marriage – he’s acting like it’ll be 60 years at a job he doesn’t want to take. Their TLC video is worse than what I remember of Josh and Anna. She is clinging to him for dear life like Anna did -- trying to please him/make him feel important as the headship, and he just DOES NOT CARE. You’d think JB and Michelle would learn – when a child has a “problem” whether it’s not being straight (not a problem for me – but it is to them) or being a sexual predator – the fix to that is NOT, marry him off, once he has a wife and family his problem will be all better. That worked out so well for Josh, didn’t it . . . . I don’t think of Josiah as as much of an ass as Josh but desperation can lead you to do bad things – wonder if there will be hidden affairs in a few years. In any event, I think there will be a pregnancy soon – maybe already today. I can see Josiah being a good dad and maybe that’s how he’ll get thru married life – have sex with his wife just when it’s time to make the next baby and then take good care of the babies so while his wife may wonder if this is what a normal marriage is like, as a fundie – she’ll at least be thankful to have a man who is a good daddy and takes out the garbage. In the end that wasn’t enough for Josh though, who also seemed like a good dad but in the end still stepped out on Anna.

Haven’t followed this at all — why do we think Josiah isn’t happy? Do we really believe he’s gay? Bc I’m thinking if he were straight, he’d be expressing some excitement and happiness even if he didn’t feel 100% in love with Lauren bc he’d be getting kissed and laid finally. I mean there’s lots of fundies who later turn out to have disastrous marriages — yet on the wedding day, if nothing else the guys are happy to be hours away from the wedding night. Thinking of all the Duggar and Bates weddings we’ve seen this is the least enthusiasm we’ve seen from any groom - and this is a guy who had a LOT of personality and was never shy. Even the quiet/more reserved grooms like Joe, John Webster still seemed emotional. Derek was under a tremendous amount of stress when he got married yet in his pics he still looked happy though exhausted and when he spoke he did have that glimmer of - MY wife, can’t wait to get to the hotel. In that video Josiah talks about the wedding/marriage the way most of us talk about a new job being a good opportunity, while she is clinging to him — he doesn’t even touch her once. And in the still pic, anyone think his eyes look kind of red/puffy? Hope that was happy tears before the ceremony but IDK.

I didn't even think Nathan could be acting obnoxious to "show" Ashley. I figured he's bitter and resentful that a mere female had the audacity to say NO to him -- a MAN. So now he has to show everyone how much of a man he really is even though he lost a girl -- whether it's by telling his sisters (Michael; Tori) that their wedding dress/hair doesn't look good or it's by pushing younger brothers (Trace) to do what he believes they should be doing bc he is a wise MAN and he knows best. I don't think Zach handled his breakup like that at all. I don't think they were on the air back then from what we've heard from them -- Zach was super sad for a while but also realized that he was so uncomfortable around girls, even sitting close to them or knowing what to talk to them about. And from there he befriended Whit and would just show up at Sonic and chat with her, became friends etc. and probably got some realization that girls are human and when you treat them as your equal and your partner in life, life can be really good/fun; maybe even better than when you lord it over them that you are THE MAN. I bet it was probably right around then that he started realizing that Gil and Kelly didn't have it all figured out. Their whole plan of -- pray and then whichever fundie girl you want is yours bc no fundie woman ever turns down any Godly man bc she NEEDS a headship, clearly didn't work out. So perhaps he started thinking they weren't particularly right about their -- only work for yourself/family businesses and stay away from the godless blue haired heathens in the rest of society -- plan. Bc he picked up a job at the city commissioners office, got to know guys in the sheriff's office and realized he'd rather be out on patrol, went to the police academy. All while doing heathen things like having a TV at home, NOT producing a child every year, allowing his wife to have some work interests of her own, and taking out a mortgage for a nice, totally modern renovated home -- rather than holding out for a cash purchase of a cottage where they can be on top of each other or a falling down shack that'd take 8 yrs to renovate the way his parents did. Clearly Jackson looks up to him, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other middle kids who I think are close to him like Alyssa and Josie do too. Obviously Alyssa isn't following in his footsteps re baby making, but clearly I have a feeling both she and Josie wanting nice homes and knowing it's possible if a guy has a good job -- sought out guys like John and Kelton; bet neither thinks a mortgage is a particularly Godless financial instrument since it allows you to have a nice home and seems like both seem to think that nothing is wrong with women working outside the home and making money. Even if Zach isn't sitting there telling them all these things are good (he probably isn't) -- I think some siblings are looking at his life and realizing they want to create something similar to what he has -- hot wife who isn't particularly needy or clingy, a fun marriage it seems by the way they banter w each other, good job/career, not having dozens of babies screaming, nice home, disposable income. They may be realizing -- like he did -- that Gil and Kelly aren't necessarily right -- you CAN seek worldly things and not make babies yearly and still be a Godly person. Wouldn't be surprised if a few other middle brothers are watching closely like Trace, Isiah or Warden and forming their own thoughts re life. I don't think he has any influence on the siblings closer in age to him -- Erin, Michael, Lawson or Nathan -- bc by the time he started living his life how he wanted, their views of the world were pretty much formed and then had drunk all the Kool Aid. Though if Michael only ends up having 1-4 kids, then I think her life will look a lot like Zach's -- though in her case I don't think it'll be by choice and she will mourn what she lost (having dozens of kids).

As for Trace – I didn’t get the whole, now I need to figure out another life plan/next steps, since basketball didn’t work out. Um -- surely you didn’t think that making the Crown basketball team would’ve meant your life path was a direct path to the NBA? But I do feel bad for him bc he seems like he’s taking it hard. Reality is even at a nothing college, you’ll get guys trying out who’ve been playing on community teams since like age 8 and then middle school and high school varsity. There’s no way someone who simply likes the game and went to 1-2 basketball camps for a week as a teen – and thus has played at most 40-80 hrs competitively – can ever compete. Feel bad for him bc homeschooling at home with your mama being the teacher means you pretty much “win” at everything. Growing up he and his siblings never had the experience of working hard on a science project and still not winning the science fair; getting cut from a team; working hard and having it still not be enough to graduate ranked #1 in your class. More and more of these opportunities are being taken away anyway as schools move towards participation trophies for everyone and naming 10 people valedictorian so as not to make the person with the 3.9999 feel bad – but still in most school settings, you will have some times where you don’t get what you want. Trace experienced it for the first time at age 20 and you can tell it’s shaken his confidence. I think Zach and Nathan experienced it when both their courtships broke up – and Zach has come a LONG way since then; Nathan – not so much. Didn’t understand Nathan’s criticism when he said – some guys want to be pilots for a job and that’s fine for them, but I fly to spread the gospel and save people (with some amens from Trace). Uh – why are we picking on commercial pilots?? It’s a good profession. And sorry Nathan but some 24 yr olds can’t live off of giving a handful of flight lessons per week bc they don’t live with their mommy and daddy; they have mortgages and school loans to pay and have things like 401k. And last I checked they’ve been spreading the gospel and saving people in the Philippines, Australia etc. Cut the BS – no way you are flying yourself trans Pacific. I find Nathan to be obnoxious and nasty with his judgment – be it commercial pilots or how his sister looks in a wedding dress or wears her hair!? I thought the Zach and Jackson scene was cute. Looks like there’s 13 yrs between them. Zach looks at him like a proud dad. You can tell he was trying to motivate him (i.e. well you’re 16, you have to start deciding what you want to do) while balancing it with – you don’t have to figure it all out today. Right now it sounds like Jackson wants to go down the construction road. Honestly since Zach isn’t scared to spend time outside the home, I hope he encourages Jackson to pursue an actual trade school and/or get a job as an apprentice for a real contractor to get legit experience even if that means being around blue haired people, rather than just learning from DIY Chad and then thinking he can join Chad’s business/start his own. Sub contractors do really well – look at John and Kelton – but they 100% have to know what they’re doing; and once they’ve learned, it’s not hard for them to get a nearly six figure job.

Chad and Erin are too stupid for words. For a girl who was raised to believe her husband was her reason for being on this earth – you’d think she’d take better care of him. Yeah she cooks for him, but how can she be blind to the fact that he has aged 10-20 years in their 4 years of marriage and looks like the oldest 31 year old ever?? He stood there and directly said – I’m worried about the pregnancy; worried about the baby; worried about whether we can about if we can handle 3 kids under 3; worried about Erin’s health . . . . LONG PAUSE but I’m excited. And she crowed about – oooohh a picture frame with pics will make this a nursery haven but can you take it down and paint it pink AND it’ll be soooo nice to hold a baby and rock them to sleep again. Um I didn’t realize your 1 and 2 year olds didn’t count as babies anymore!? And her dumb mother went on about how they’re going to have 3 in diapers just like she did. Congrats?? Maybe tell your daughter that her husband appears to be breaking under the stress and it’s in her interest to keep her husband as stress free as possible. Sure they won’t use BC – maybe just have less sex? I mean if he can't find his balls and be the headship that decides to slow down the baby train, can't he fake more exhaustion and headaches? They’ve said before that they will only buy in cash. They went around and looked at homes to buy outright – these houses were abandoned a LONG time ago and honestly I wondered how they were faring structurally in any wind over 10 mph. But per Chad and Erin – no problem bc Mr. Fix It can do anything. I think those houses are literally all they can afford outright. Chad “joked” that maybe they could live with her family for a while; she nixed the idea immediately but you could tell that if she had jumped on the idea, he would’ve been relieved. I think he’s feeling the financial stress. I’m sure he made ok money at Nobel Metals and maybe even had health insurance, but I’d be shocked if a small business like that offers anything besides a high deductible plan. That means that for all 4 yrs they’ve been married – the teary 1st yr when they couldn’t conceive and then each subsequent pregnancy – they’ve likely been paying something like $5-7k out of pocket as a deductible. Not so easy for a single earner in a non professional job to save 7k every year. Frankly he should’ve taken out a mortgage when he was at Nobel. It’d be hard for him to even qualify now – banks look for a solid track record of earnings which he had when he worked a job; now with a business that’s just starting up with pay probably wildly fluctuating as there are likely weeks with lots of works and weeks with minimal work – doubt he’ll get a mortgage easily even if he wants one.

So happy for JD. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as real a smile on his face as we do now. At times I felt bad for him because you could tell he wanted someone but played it off because he didn’t have anyone/didn’t know if anyone would marry him – i.e. one season when building some playhouse for his siblings, he longingly said “maybe I’ll build one of these for my own kids one day”; once not wanting to talk about it in a TH he said “relationships – I don’t have time for that.” And you could tell it was said in that way that many of us say it when we’re thinking – who knows if it’ll ever happen. Despite it all, you could tell he had some personality. Despite his limited exposure to the world, he has some sarcasm about him which to me always signals some wit and personality. I mean who can forget – bachelor until the rapture!? I know I’ve always had high hopes that these spouses will come in and make the Duggars more worldly. After all college grad Fortune 500 accountant Derick was supposed to introduce Jill to entertainment bc he took her to Broadway, to food beyond TTC bc he fed her hummus – and look at them now!? So I won’t wish that for JD bc we all know it won’t happen. As much as I’d love for Abby to remain a nurse and for them to move up to Okla – where JD can probably get a job working on planes esp if he were to train as a mechanic and/or flying charters as he does now but for an actual company (bc there is a legit aviation industry in OKC and Tulsa), we all know the likelihood is she moves to the house that he’s bought in Arkansas – which I think is near home though maybe not on JB’s compound. So what I will hope for them – that he and Abby turn out like Zach and Whit Bates. Sure they live near the Bates homestead, but very much live their own life. Bought a house. Zach went to the police academy and holds a job NOT at Gil’s tree service. Whit has some kind of real estate work – not sure how active it is but again not family work. And married 4.5 years with only 2 kids so far. With Abby being 26 – sure there’s still lots of time for kids, but since she didn’t marry at 18 – that takes 8 years of childbearing away, which is awesome. Let’s hope they get married, and she insists on continuing some kind of career rather than bearing a child yearly until age 40. So is an LPN a regular nurse, just a different kind of degree than an RN? Meaning does an LPN work with all types of patients – including men?? Because my first thought was how fundie can a family be if they allow their single daughter to go into a profession where she’ll have to see men’s junk?? You know in most fundie families a daughter expressing an interest into nursing would be pushed to be a midwife or something else with laboring women; or if she HAD to do regular patient work – you know they’d push her into being a dental hygienist or a tech that works with an eye doctor or something. Fingers crossed these are semi “modern” fundies.

Happy for Josie and Kelton. Usually I think these fundies get married way too young, but they’re ready. Josie is only 18 but Kelton got interested in her when she was 15-ish – and he was probably 20-ish. I know Gil told them to put it on pause, but in this day of smart phones, I have no doubt that they were talking etc. even if they weren’t hanging out in person. So while it’s been a quick “courtship” (which she didn’t even want – telling him to just propose when he was doing his whole courtship day with her, and he said if he had a ring on him, he would have) – I think they know each other pretty well which is what matters. And he makes actual money. Plumbers can easily make 100k+ and in a place like Knoxville that is a LOT of money. IDK if Gil was ever making 100k while supporting 18 kids. Plus it’s his uncle’s plumbing company so as a family member, there’s a chance Kelton even gets a small % of profit and even if he doesn’t now – he stands to be in a good position to inherit the business/buy out his uncle one day and be the full-fledged owner of what seems to be a fairly large business in that area. As far as I can tell, his dad Michael isn’t in the plumbing business. People asked about Michael’s sweet Lexus – turns out there’s a Michael Balka in Knoxville, exactly the right age to be Kelton’s dad, who owns his own IT business; I have a feeling that’s his dad work, not plumbing – even makes sense given we’ve always see dad a bit dressed up, overcoats, suit jackets etc. as if he works with professional clients. In any event, Kelton grew up with money (even if I’m wrong about the IT thing and dad is in plumbing) and is now making six figures or close to it himself – that means Josie will come a LONG way from where she grew up. I see her being like Alyssa – they’ll buy a home in the next year or two and she’ll keep it really nicely and balk at siblings coming over and messing it all up. Unlike Alyssa, she’s likely not going anywhere since Kelton’s plumbing business is in Knoxville; though I suppose if Kelton wanted to follow his BFF to Nashville he could convince his uncle to allow him to expand the business by adding a Nashville location. In any event, I don’t see them leaving Tenn. However, I suspect they’ll still end up living an independent life and won’t be spending days on end back at the Bates’ home. I can see them being the types that stop by for an hr or two on a Saturday and then conveniently need to leave bc they have dinner reservations in the city. Josie has said before that Kelton knows the downtown area well as he always goes out there – i.e. does the things normal young people with $$ do. Wouldn’t be surprised if they bought a house in one of those young professional areas, instead of these isolated homesteads that the Bates and Paines seem to have gravitated to – undoubtedly for money reasons. And I can’t imagine them with more than 3-4 kids. Whether he talks about it or not, Kelton has to be traumatized – he was only a 13 year old boy. I can see him getting scared, every time Josie is due to give birth and then at some point just saying – that’s enough, I can’t live my life this worried about you every 9 months, 2 kids or 4 kids or whatever is plenty. Where did we hear that Evan is an electrician apprentice instead of a drs. office receptionist? I wonder if he’s seeing the light now being around his future brothers in law all the time; maybe he’s noticing that John and Alyssa and Josie and Kelton live well and that’s bc of HVAC and plumbing. The Bates family has got to be salivating – with Chad as general contractor; Zach on framing; Kelton on plumbing; Evan maybe on electrical; and Nathan/Law/Trace landscaping, that could be a full fledged fundie family business one day. I truly hope Zach and Kelton don’t leave their established well paid gigs with benefits for something like that – the others, I don’t really care. As for Cade – Bobby’s parents must be breathing a sigh of relief that in exchange for having an obnoxious daughter in law, at least they get Robert Ellis Smith IV and the name continues.

I'm not a fan of Tori or Carlin, but I think the difference is Carlin -- while LOUD and obnoxious, is with a guy who is like that too. I don't think Evan has to change much in order to be able to deal with her bc he may have the same tendencies, so they'll go forth obnoxiously together. Bobby and Tori OTOH are different from each other. She is annoying and whiny along with being obnoxious. He OTOH seems right now to be a happy go lucky, care free kind of guy who wants an easy, nice life with a wife and kids. This is manifesting/will manifest as doing whatever he can to make his annoying wife happy -- and nothing ever will bc whatever he does, she'll want and expect more. I can see how the next 40-60 yrs of his life look. But he's a nice guy and has been raised to believe you can never divorce, so he'll do it even if it means sacrificing his own happiness. That may be why his parents don't seem too thrilled with the marriage, they know it means their son the nice guy will spend his life catering to her, while she doesn't worry about whether he's happy or not. I think it's ridiculous how much emphasis these families put on married vs. NOT. A dinner just for married couples -- uh ok?! But I also think it's desperate that Lawson and Nathan had to crash. We get it, you're not married, you're not wanted here -- so have some self respect and don't show up begging for steak. Somehow I thought they'd come, make an entrance, say hi and leave; but later on you can see them sitting at the edges of the camera shot eating their steak. Despite the premise of the dinner being ridiculous, I thought the stories were sweet -- Zach saying he told Alyssa on day 1 that he'd marry Whit but was telling dad she was just a friend and Gil was like -- I'm not fool; or John not being able to utter out his name when he saw Alyssa. Chad's was dumb but then he and Erin are kind dumb -- that he liked her fake grin from across the room. Brandon tries real hard on the romance but just isn't comfortable with it at least not publicly -- saying that when he say Michael he wondered who was holding on the babies and then thought her husband will be a blessed guy -- yeah I don't believe that even with his fundie speak; I think it was more his sisters saying -- look at that girl, she's pretty, she loves babies, she's fundie, she's make a great wife for you and him slowly agreeing. I think Kelton and Bobby together bring something into the family -- they've known each other before becoming brothers in law and have actually known each other since 18 since they were college roommates. So I thought it was funny that Kelton was able to tell how Bobby kept playing a video of Tori over and over again with her singing in her southern drawl and then telling Kelton OMG I'm in love. At I love you day -- who was the handsome young man hanging out with them? Someone for Katie? He's a generic thin looking guy -- at first I thought it was Lawson or Evan -- but then he was shown standing behind Gil when they were watching the old people come in and you can see Lawson in the same camera shot; then he's shown sitting next to Lawson while Evan is showing off his old person costume. I think it's weird that they often have young guys hanging with them as "friends" and then later that friend is shown to be someone's husband; I feel like there was a time where Trace always had 1-2 basketball buddies with him and I was thinking then too -- guys for Katie?? Also thought it was interesting that when Trace was "complaining" that he didn't get to crash the couples dinner, Law and Nathan both said -- find yourself a girl at college, it's easy for you. Trace replied -- it's not that easy; sounds to me like everyone assumes Trace will be the next boy wedding.

I don’t even get what the kids were doing that was soooo bad?? Jace and M were shown playing in the yard and then running up and down the outside staircase and then rang the doorbell once as a prank – these are all things that school age kids do. Kaiser woke them up at 4-5 am – uh kids do that sometimes often when they’re in an unfamiliar place. And then at mealtime claimed he needed to go to the bathroom – maybe he did, maybe he didn’t and was using it as an excuse to not have to sit and eat – but it’s hardly abnormal behavior for a 3 yr old. The way David was screaming about needing the cameras gone and how they should all be proud of themselves because they ruined it and now they were going home – looks like everyone was about to get a beating, and I’m not even sure why. And btw you weren’t doing anything in the cabin either – is going home a punishment or staying in the cabin bc they seem about the same to me.

I like Z&T better than the other two but omg they are going to be - or actually already are - those people who have NOTHING to talk about unless they’re discussing their kid who of course comes out brilliant and perfect in every story. We get it — you’re sooo worried about feeding your kid safe food. Either buy organic oatmeal and rice cereal or get grandpa Matt to grow oats and put a rice paddy in at the farm. I assume T is going to be a stay home mom? They seem traditional like that but damn she needs to go back to teaching and him to soccer simply to have something to say that isn’t about J. Love that Jer can’t possibly take on a larger role at the farm for 2 years. What are you so busy with Jer - did Harvard Business School offer you admission into their MBA program?? Let’s be real in 2 yrs he and Z will both have a 2nd kid and then all 4 of them will sit around whining about - do you know how hard it is to have TWO babies?? Can’t possibly deal with the farm right now.

Catching last week's episode re the days before pumpkin season. What is it with grown men being reluctant to WORK -- when they wax lyrical about how important the farm is, how they want keep it going and how Jer wants to inherit the farm!? Zach and Jer were talking amongst themselves re whether each would be involved in pumpkin season and both hemming and hawing. And then Zach who is usually the less lazy one says -- well I guess I'll be here some, but I can't be here all day bc I'll have to be going home to check on Tori and Jackson. Um -- hate to break it to you but in most families at least one person goes to work ALL DAY and doesn't run home a few times in the day to check on their spouse/kid?! Same with Jer and Auj when Jer was saying he wanted to be involved in pumpkin season but Auj/kid were his first priority and Auj says -- yeah it'll be hard to have you gone all day. Uh what would you do if he had a JOB? Given that these 2 have no marketable skills/education and aren't looking to develop anything, I would think it would behoove them to take the family business seriously and do what they can to grow it bc ultimately they'll inherit it and until their dad, they'll need to support TWO households with that money, not just one.