cereality

I assume at some level G&K are pissed about how open their adult kids are being. Yet they have no control over the older married ones living in their own households. Josie/Kelton, Evan/Carlin, Alyssa/John, Whit/Zach are clearly looking to monetize their "fame" by becoming IG influencers, getting free stuff, and making some extra cash off of YouTube videos etc. And they have all realized that no one is going to watch if it's just "keeping sweet" and smiling at the headship type of videos. Yet I'm sure G&K aren't like J&A putting out there that they fought A LOT A LOT during their first year of marriage; and that during courting both were close to breaking up with each other at various times. Same with Evan/Carlin -- they have recounted in great depth that she had an ex boyfriend and then recently has said Evan wasn't her first relationship and also said she was close to breaking up with Evan during dating (he made it sound like she considered breaking it off with him but he didn't ever consider dumping her). This makes them sound like normal people with normal relationships and marriages, but damn that's not the fundie image G&K wanted to project when they got into this.

FWIW -- I did NOT hear this as them saying we HAD to confess to Gil/Kelly and apologize, the way Zach and Whit said it. I heard them saying -- we kissed a LOT and were bad at it. Alyssa ended up telling her dad and John told his parents and we told our bridal party. It did NOT sound like they HAD to tell. More like it came up when Gil likely said to Alyssa "you haven't been kissing right" -- and she prob was like well yes. And for the bridal party, who knows -- maybe it was along the lines of don't worry about our first kiss, we've got practice haha. Honestly I am guessing the only ones of the couples who DIDN'T kiss pre marriage were Brandon and Michaela -- bc I think she really is fundie at her core and shy too and Brandon is pretty fundie and I believe was in seminary then so he was probably way invested in "the rules" and "purity" etc. And likely Chad/Erin bc she was the first one to court, so I'm guessing they got like NO time without siblings in their face; she probably was very focused on having the perfect fundie relationship by the rules; and he is from a very fundie family too. We know Zach/Whit, John/Alyssa, and Josie/Kelton kissed. Carlin/Evan -- she knew as a bridal party member that Alyssa was kissing so she wasn't going to NOT do it plus she kind of has had "normal" relationships and done what she wants -- has an ex boyfriend; decided she was going to dance with her man at their wedding and convinced G&K that it was classy. Same with Bobby/Tori, once she knew Alyssa was kissing, you know she was like yeah don't have to follow that dumb rule. Plus Bobby likely knew from Kelton that he had kissed during his relationship so that Bates rule was NBD. And Bobby and Evan are both fundie lite/closer to regular Christian so you know they weren't as invested in "courting" etc. having not been raised in families where that's a thing.

With all the couples, the wives manage the Insta and use it to create an image of themselves, their family, and to seek out free stuff etc; in certain families that husbands are fame whorish so they split the social media responsibilities (i.e. Evan) and in others the husbands have been convinced that a social media presence will help their business so they join in (i.e. Kelton -- not sure anyone with clogged pipes cares if he feeds his baby ice cream every night but hey he seems to think it matters). Tori seems on the lazier side and I don't think wants to do anything besides manage the 2 kids she has and be pregnant. So we don't see much of them. Trace posted an IG video lately of Paine Construction putting a deck onto Bobby and Tori's house and also showed Gil up in some tree in their yard cutting it down. So it appears they've bought a house -- because why would you put a deck onto a rental (unless it's a Chad/Erin situation where they keep making improvements to a rental - so if they rent maybe it's from some sweet family in town that's "friends" with G&K who says sure we'll pay to add a deck to our property or you can add a deck to our property and we'll forgive the rent for x months). My takeaway from that video wasn't at all about Bobby and Tori so much as about Chad as I thought AGAIN -- damn does he EVER do work for non family members!? Like how much income is he losing by tying himself to family jobs because you know that even if they pay, he kind of does those jobs at cost and/or with a very modest profit -- whereas with unrelated clients you could charge market rates w/o feeling bad, getting a guilt trip from your wife or Gil etc.

Wtf - and you especially don’t say that to 3 kids without proper swimming training, as Alyssa said that they’re starting swim classes this or next week?! Like haha funny dad joke and of course if anyone tried to jump in to get the bucket he’d stop them. But what happens when one day dad is at work, Alyssa is in the bathroom or putting the baby down, the kids sneak out and throw or drop something in the pool but then are like nah we don’t need to wait for mom/dad to get it for us or mom/dad will yell at us for being out here in the first place, one of us can just get it quick and they never have to know. These ppl act like that haven’t spent their lives around 8000 kids . . . .

Oklahoma. Yeah and she's got to be age 65+ so let's fly out someone older to be in a home where people had covid and one of them is having a hard time kicking it; I mean we don't know that someone having a hard time recovering is contagious but do we know for certain that they aren't? And what happened to her 67,000 family members down the road? I'm surprised Addy/Ellie/Callie weren't assigned shifts over there to care for Erin's kids, cook/clean etc. And what about all of Erin's BS on IG about her husband being THE BEST at cooking, cleaning, mopping, laundry, etc. Doesn't it seem like mother in law was doing those things, not Prince Chad? And where were these people staying? I imagine both MIL and brother in law are bunking in the only living/family room -- as the other 2 rooms are occupied w/ C&E and with the 4 kids.

In most police departments around the country and in most state/local gov't jobs, full retirement is 20 years so I imagine Anderson County is the same. He's already half way there! At this point it really would have made so much more sense to transfer into some other state/local gov't job if this was about his safety and do that for 10 years and THEN retire into tree cutting. Sometimes the retiree benefits in these jobs not only include your own 401k and pension but also things like lifetime health insurance at the state/city gov't rate which is WAY lower than the market rate -- but then of course in order for you to care about that, you have to think health insurance matters which this family doesn't. I wonder if Z will regret this. When Trace was dating that girl in Texas 1-2 seasons ago, there was a portion of one episode where Trace was talking to Z about career planning and Z was saying -- do the sheriff's office thing as many shifts as you can get and then on the side pick up shifts with Chad because you can usually do 3-4 long shifts with the sheriff's dept in one week and then have the rest of the week off so you have time to make money and lots of your days off are weekdays when it's easy to pick up contracting jobs. Trace asked if that's what Zach did when he was starting out/just married and Z was like -- no it's what I WISH I had done. The other brothers have Z for guidance that's a little more worldly -- i.e. making money; taking out a mortgage for a nice house etc. Z has no one. I mean he has Gil but Gil is an idiot. As @sATL says Gil likely would talk or did talk Z out of all of these things being important bc he never had them -- oh health insurance whatever, just take your wife to the ER when she's crowning they can't turn her away; just do all prenatal care w/ Dr. Vick, he takes cash or bartering -- you don't need them fancy drs. at U. Tenn or any other private practice; if you need ultrasounds you again don't need them fancy drs. -- just go to the drop by in the strip mall place, they'll give you the ultrasounds you need for the gender reveal party; retirement -- oh don't worry, God will provide, it's going against God's will to prep THIS MUCH for retirement at age 32 -- don't you trust him? Plus you have a son and another on the way, you'll have a family business with them when you're old and they'll do the work and most of the $$$ will be yours. I'm not saying someone HAS to stay in the police force or stay in a gov't job if they're miserable bc there's a pension. But reality is he didn't seem miserable -- even how he talked about it last night, it sounds like he liked it a lot and will miss it. Plus this isn't like the person who leaves bc they go to the private sector -- sure they give up a pension but get a physically safer job, may make more in salary etc. He is going into a family business that must support 8000 other people while he has a wife and 4 kids of his own!? I mean you know Gil is taking a good share of the $$$ from the tree business bc he has 8 kids at home and it's HIS business. Trace/Jackson/Warden/Isiah have no firm career plans yet -- sure they make some $ from Chad's business but you better believe that Chad's business isn't steady enough to need all 4 of them 40 hrs/wk, 52 wks a year. Right now it doesn't matter as thy are all single but as they all marry in the next 1-5 yrs, you KNOW they will ALL rely on the tree business esp. when pay from Chad is lean. And then you have Nathan and Lawson -- both looking to marry in the next 2 min. Sure they do other things like flight lessons and medical missions but again I don't think these things are 40 hr/wk, 52 wk/yr salaries -- so they will definitely need to be supplementing by working w/ the tree business. Plus once they're married w/ babies, how much are they really going to be running off to the next tornado to make money w/ whatever rescue org they're with? The tree business will start to become more and more what they look at for income. I mean there's a chance Lawson moves away to Ca. w/ Tiffany, but as for right now Zach is tying his future to a business that must support Gil, Nathan, Trace, Jackson, Warden, Isaiah and their eventual families. Is this business really THAT significant?? Someone better starting HUSTLING hard and seeing if they can land contracts with the city, surrounding cities, or the state of Tenn. to be cutting down the trees that grow along highways etc. That's the only chance they have of steady income that's enough to support 7-8 separate households.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Zach news has Whit and G&K all over it. Whit is a people pleaser who is DESPERATE to fit in with that family. All she's heard from G&K was G having his own business was the best thing ever bc he was home all the time except when he had tree jobs but that's ok bc he just took a handful of sons with him so it's not like he wasn't with his kids even at work. And now look -- bestie Erin's husband works for himself; Kelton and Bobby -- work for themselves; Evan doesn't yet but I bet he will at some point within 5 yrs; John -- works for his family's business; Brandon works from home. You KNOW Kelly and Erin who is Kelly 2.0 are in her ear about oh it's soooo awful that YOUR husband is the only one who is working for the man. Look at those evil heathens (in rural Tenn where everyone is Christian) making him go to work on a Sunday and be away from HIS KIDS on the LORD'S DAY blah blah. When they did that pandemic special early last summer, Z was still with the sheriff's office as he was shown coming home in uniform. But he got covid at work (I believe) and I assume lots of his coworkers did too so when he recovered, chances are he was pulling lots of double shifts etc. covering for those who were sick or had to quarantine bc of exposure. You KNOW that's when Whit got in his ear about OMG Bradley is SIX, he cries for daddy, you're not home, how will he grow up to be a man just like you blah blah and started putting it in his ear that 10 years of working for someone besides his family was enough. Whit is all about pleasing Kelly (and Erin and Carlin) and Z is all about pleasing Whit bc at some level I still think he can't believe his luck that someone wanted him after he got dumped by that first girl. So sometime between June and Sept 2020 (since this show featured Alyssa's gender reveal which was in Sept), he quit. Thing is -- he seems sad about leaving. Usually when someone leaves a job esp LEO they are RELIEVED it's over. He was like -- I can't even list all the things I'll miss about the sheriffs office; I used to lead my own SWAT team etc. It seems like he didn't 100% want to leave, he got pressured. It IS totally possible that he wasn't able to make a promotion; needed to take some other test for it that he couldn't pass or couldn't dedicate time to studying for bc his wife said no you're already gone 60 hrs a week. But this is a place that relies on volunteer/hourly types of people in the sheriff's office like Trace and Law at one point. So I feel like Z would have been disappointed if he couldn't be promoted or be full time SWAT or detective but he would have hung around as a regular patrolmen/deputy for his career and/or until he COULD make the promotion. Like he doesn't seem like the type who'd be like if I can't be promoted, I'm out of here THIS year; I feel like he'd give the promotion a few chances and if it still didn't work, it'd be like ok it's the Lord's will that I just be a patrol cop. Financially -- bad move. I just looked at the benefits PDF attached above. He had Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tenn (usually one of the best plans in every state) for $350/month for a family of 5!?! That's ridiculously good. That type of plan on the exchange for a family of 5 would EASILY be $1500/month if not more. Though 99.9999% chance they don't buy that type of insurance plan now that they do it on their own; chances are they buy the cheapest high deductible, minimal coverage plan there is just to have some coverage and showing his wages qualify for almost Medicaid like status -- so probably paying $100/mo max. And Anderson County REQUIRES employees to contribute 5% into a 401k AND the county then contributes an amount MORE THAN 5%. So with 10 years there, he is walking away with some retirement $. I just hope they're smart enough to NOT withdraw that -- he's 32 just let it sit in those investments for another 3 decades and you could be withdrawing a million+ at that time. I hope they don't feel like -- oh we can use this now to make ends meet when tree work is slow. And that's on top of any pension he may have thru Anderson County -- he probably has something even if it isn't the greatest pension ever. If this really was a decision re look police work is dangerous and esp SWAT, let's not keep taking chances by doing this esp now with a wife and 4 kids. Ok fine. But then why not hang out at the sheriff's office until/unless you can get a position with Anderson County gov't or one of the local neighboring counties or state gov't; or try to get into security at one of the local courthouses -- much less dangerous as you're not patrolling the streets but mostly watching the metal detectors and who comes in? Those jobs don't open up every day but when they do, first preference is often people who are already in gov't and looking to transfer, not outsiders. He has a 10 yr history with Anderson County -- he even started in a county gov't job before leaving it to go to the police academy, he could probably get hired there but yeah it wouldn't have been within 3 months, it would be more like within 12-18 mos. Wouldn't that have been worth it for a steady paycheck and keeping these benefits!?

It was interesting that Chad’s whatever-IDGAF face was reserved for Michael’s nursing school. When it came to little Esther and Law/Nathan being in Orlando w her, he was all sympathy. And when it came to his own wife, he shed tears. Kind of suggests he’s a typical fundie asshole — women only matter insofar as they are wives and mommies or are still babies; if they aren’t or are pursuing some other dream, who gives a f—-. I kind of like that such an asshole is aging in dog years. And for all the tears Chad is shedding about Erin’s Covid and Kelly is saying how E had the toughest time — did the rest of the family ever stop traveling and gathering?? Also is E going to take the vax or are they against it? Chad said they’ll try anything and there’s reporting out there that many long haulers experience total/nearly total recovery after the shot. And yeah super disappointing that Z is back working for Gil with the typical BS of “investing in my kids like dad invested in me” and not wanting to be away 50 hrs/wk. I wonder if they were trying not to say, police work is dangerous, we’ve been lucky for 10 yrs but the more yrs he does this, the more chances he’s taking. That I’d understand. But then why not try to grab a city govt job — where he started before the police academy? He’d then continue to have a steady paycheck, healthcare, retirement. At least 10 yrs in he’s leaving with a vested pension (not a full pension but smaller but still vested) — something that’s foreign to the Bates. And I know this is mean but Josie and Kelton seemed ridiculously over the top re the miscarriage. She told him she was pregnant in June and announced a recent miscarriage in early September — so first 2-3 mos. You’d think a family with 10000000 kids would realize how common that is. I didn’t understand K&J both sitting there shedding tears and waxing poetic about walking thru SUCH a hard time and growing closer and wanting more kids someday. Uh idiots you have a 1 yr old and we all know you’re not having more kids “someday,” you’ll get busy a week after the miscarriage and be due in 9 mos — which is precisely what happened. I guess if they were Michaela and Brandon they would have offed themselves by now. Michaela and Brandon are the most likeable ones on this show — not shedding tears every 2 min, doing something in life other than making babies.

Per his IG, Travis proposed in Key West Fla. Guess Kelly and Katie finally convinced him Katie was the one. Welcome to your new life Bobby 2.0. Damn Travis just turned 20 in March. He’s the youngest of the Bates grooms by a lot - Chad, John and Brandon were all mid 20s. Bobby, Kelton and Evan married younger but Bobby and Kelton had both graduated college so they were at least 22-23 by the wedding day; IDK exactly about Evan but from the dating story they tell it sounds like he was at least 20-21 when he became interested in her and she had started college — theirs was one of the “longer” courtships so Evan likely was also 22ish at least by wedding day.

Prince Chad has grown older and more tired -- as we've all noted for years. He's a fairly aged 33 year old. It's possible that he reserves his "keeping sweet" for where it'll make his life hell not to do so -- i.e. writing the love letter Erin requires each morning; hiring Trace/Warden/Isiah/Jackson for his business; cooing with Erin about how much he wants more babies and is so devastated that that is now unlikely (while probably secretly being relieved as he was likely panicking about where he'd put kid #5-10 in that 2 bedroom cottage of theirs). So Michaela's nursing school just does not make it on his priority list. And let's also be clear he is old school fundie raised in an old school fundie family. You know he 100% believes that a woman's role = wife + mother. And here's Michaela pursuing nursing as a consolation prize to motherhood -- he likely CAN'T celebrate that in his heart of hearts. You know he likely believes she should be sitting at home crying miserable praying 24-7 for a baby because that's what a Godly woman would do to fulfill her life's destiny as mom and to make her husband a dad like he deserves -- not go live her life. Michaela said in a recent IG story that she and Brandon agreed to take a break from specialists, fertility testing etc. for 2 years while she pursued school; I imagine they try like normal couples do but with a more -- whatever we're busy with school, if it happens it happens, if it doesn't then in 2 yrs we'll decide what if anything to pursue -- more specialists; fertility treatments; adoption etc. It's actually a very normal stance to take -- like here's something the wife wants to pursue, let her put her mind, heart and soul into that not be half-studying, half worrying about the test results from that last dr. appt. IDK if Chad specifically knows that -- though I'm guessing the family does as she put it on an IG -- but you know fundies like him disapprove. Wife and mother above all -- hell in his own family, didn't one of his older single sisters end up marrying a convicted rapist!? Gotta be a wife, doesn't matter the situation.

The Erin discussion in the Alyssa thread is making me think that Erin is turning into Michelle Duggar. She doesn't give a $hit about anything except having more and more babies; even taking care of the kids she has does not matter. And now the baby train has stopped and she isn't even 30. Difference is by the time Michelle's baby train stopped and she decided she didn't even have to pretend to care about her existing kids or running her household, she had a half dozen daughters that were age probably like 14-21+ so all child rearing, cooking, cleaning fell on them. Erin's oldest daughter is about 4 -- it's at least 4-6 more years that either Chad or Erin must be involved before she can be expected to take over cooking, laundry etc. with her younger sisters' help. I'm surprised we're not seeing Addie/Ellie/Callie being relegated to Erin's house 4 days a week to run things though I think that's coming as the family probably doesn't yet fully realize how desperate/close to breaking down Erin is.

Alyssa strikes me as a combo of a girly-girl and a woman who just did not have a lot of nice things growing up so now she wants what she does have to be perfect and she's willing to work hard to make that happen. I think it's a lot of why all her kids must be perfectly attired and clean with their hair done and for god's sake she even tries to coax them to wear "matching" jewelry when they are going somewhere special -- i.e. no don't wear the tacky yellow bracelet with your pink dress, don't you think the tacky pink one matches better? And the same is true for her home. She has 4 young kids but from what we've seen from her IG videos etc. she keeps a pretty pristine home. Hell even Gill knows how much Alyssa hates it if you mess up her house or even her plans like messing up the food platters she's putting together to look nice for a party in advance of said party just bc you couldn't take yourself from eating the fruit or whatever. So when they visit with the younger kids Kelly still won't get off her ass, Gil is the one who literally follows the younger kids around at like a 1 ft distance making sure they don't break or mess up anything; and often he is seen rounding everyone up and he'll even say he wants everyone out of Alyssa's space and at the park -- which undoubtedly is easier for him as he can just set them free to let them run wild rather than having to watch them like a hawk. I think J&A are no doubt proud of what they accomplish -- this house; the small vacations they take etc. But reality is unlike Princess Erin, they work HARD. John has said he can take no time off in the summer bc in the Florida AC season, if someone calls and you can't send a tech that day, they're calling the next company; he's even been shown going out to jobs at 9 pm bc for commercial jobs like car dealerships etc. they can't just close the dealership or turn off its AC in July so the HVAC crew can work. And not to mention for 1-2 yrs they had a cleaning business too -- John would come home and watch the kids and Alyssa would go out and clean a few offices and an ice cream shop that they had commercial cleaning contracts with. I think they had to set that business aside due to Alyssa's heart surgeries but still it showed a woman willing to roll up her sleeves to work -- at night -- after having wrangled little kids and cleaned her own house all day. Erin OTOH it's unclear to me what she does at all. I assume she throws the kids boxed pop tarts or instant oatmeal for breakfast and a PBJ for lunch. She hustles the 2 older ones off to Tori's for "school" -- if Tori is still doing that -- if not she plops them in front of devices for "school." The rest of time I do think the kids run wild -- unbathed, ungroomed, barefoot, outside chasing the chickens and "making memories." I think Chad likely gets home by 2-3 pm (bc lots of contractors start the day early and end early) and then it's on him to do what needs to be done + occupy the kids. I think CHAD is the one tending to their thousand animals; throwing in loads of laundry; cooking dinner; cleaning up after dinner; making sure the kids get a bath and then reading to them/playing guitar/or whatever other "making memories" crap Erin requires before putting them to bed; then probably the tasks like paying bills and/or repairing whatever the kids broke in the house. Oh and then he gets to work on her love note which she expects to wake up to EVERY FREAKING MORNING!? IDK when Erin's surgeries where. To the extent that she's still in pain/recovering, I get it. But my feeling is they were this fall so she is physically better. So is being menopausal/not having any more kids = an excuse not to have to raise the kids you already have or to run your household!? All that "bragging" in those IG post re how her man is "better than her" at cooking, dishes, mopping and laundry = Chad is doing the cooking, dishes, mopping, and laundry, while I sit here miserable that I don't get to have more "blessings" and freaking Alyssa even with her damn heart problem likely does and look she got a better house than me to stack her blessings in too. As ugly of a person as she is, I imagine she sits around feeling superior to Michael though -- I may ONLY have gotten 4 kids but I'm #blessed -- Michael/Brandon got 0.

Damn Erin is kind of mean as that does read like it’s directed at Alyssa. Like Alyssa needs to stop worrying about posting pics of her perfectly dressed children, put down her phone, and read to the kids, let them dance as she plays piano, make s’mores, let them run thru the yard. Granted Alyssa’s children do seem more prissy and if they were doing some of this fun stuff we’d see pics just as we do of the weekly perfect church dresses. But does Erin live with them? How does she know there aren’t fun backyard games or s’mores happening or bedtime stories and maybe J/A ARE putting the phone down and that’s why you aren’t seeing pics?! And what now Erin — you can only have 4 kids so no need to groom them or provide them more than 2 ft each of living space and no need to discipline — they can just run wild barefoot chasing the chickens bc you’re pissed you won’t have 10 more kids?! IIRC the sibling/friend subgroup breaks down into Alyssa close w Trace, Josie, Zach, Michaela (IDK how much they have in common but she seems to respect Michael as she’s shared news of pregnancies privately bc she understood it may be hard for her), and maybe Katie. IDK who Erin is even close with — I think Carlin and maybe Tori and that’s it. Interesting that the ones that are more industrious (minus Katie and maybe Trace to an extent) ended up tight and the lazy, whiny, good for nothing ones also ended up tight.

Thanks for the summary @Jeeves. It's interesting that it is about money (at least in part) -- I had no idea they weren't being paid. Ultimately though I imagine Derick after a few yrs of marriage and a kid or 2 realized he was Mr. Duggar and didn't like it and probably was willing to do something about it given how much he appears not to respect JB/Michelle. I mean he seems like a douche still (watched a few min of a few videos last night) so I doubt he has buddies who could talk sense into him, but maybe it was his brother's marriage that made him realize his was effed up. I mean he's a southern baptist/conservative Christian too. As much as the Duggars and fundies generally (i.e. Bates etc.) act like the OWN Christianity, living life his way/how he was raised still means they'd be very very Christian conservative with the requisite racism, sexism, anti LGBT etc. stances all in tact. All it means is that he could use non hormonal BC so they end up with 2-4 kids instead of 1100 kids and he can knock back a beer once in a while and win win by showing his wife how effed up her family is and how much they've messed her up emotionally and taken advantage of her in everything from raising all their kids to financially, hey he doesn't have to see them for years if ever. I have to imagine he rushed into being Mr. Duggar because he was freaking out that he wouldn't get married. After all in those conservative Christian communities and esp those that go to school in the south, it's find a steady girlfriend by sophomore year and ring by junior spring with a wedding within a month of graduation. He wasn't able to do that -- I'm sure in large part because his dad died suddenly as a freshman so he was overwhelmed enough that he probably didn't jump into dating or did so really half heartedly and no one fell in love with his douchy self. So then graduation comes and with no bride at the altar he says screw this, I'll go live overseas for a while. 1-2 years ticks by and he realizes hmm I'm not getting any younger and where am I going meet a white Christian. So he fills out an application and emails a resume to JB (I believe they've said this is what JB required back then to start courting) and bam instant courtship. And because Jill back them was SOOOO enamored with her family and how they did things, of course he twisted himself into pretzels saying he wanted to do exactly the same --- noooo I don't even want to hold my gf's hand or kiss her despite being 25 and knowing we'll be hopping into bed together 2 min after our vows a week from now; of course as many kids as God gives us; of course we'll live in any house your father gives us and then put up with his opinion on every aspect of our lives etc. And then at some point he woke up, realized he hated his inlaws and how they live and consequently how he lives and his wife is dumb and all kinds of messed up, so he can convince her to live more like how HE grew up . . . .

Alyssa did not look well to me in that video. I mean John looked tired too but Alyssa just looked wiped out. I wish these people would slow the eff down. This woman just had her second heart surgery just 18 mos ago, then spent 9 or those 18 subsequent months pregnant, pushed out a kid, and like 1 week later was on her feet painting and packing. I mean I get it, it's a seller's market right now so if a house comes up on the market that's in your price range, you have to jump on it. And they have talked about needing a house; I mean they're stacking up kids like t shirts. But I honestly don't understand why it had to be fixed up ASAP to the point where John was working until 2 am daily and Alyssa was there like 6-8 hrs/day painting etc. and 6000 Bates siblings had to come help in shifts all while they have a newborn. I realize that when people buy they want to get into the new house ASAP because they're paying a mortgage on the new house + rent on the old one. Yet somehow I thought the house they rented was rented from John's dad -- maybe I'm wrong on that. Even if it was a 3rd party landlord, was their budget soooo tight that they could not possibly do the work in 2 months instead of 1 and thus pay 2 months more of rent? I know they've said before they're terrible at budgeting and it kind of showed. And that house is underwhelming at best. It's big in terms of square footage but the usage of space is fairly awkward. I mean a family of 6 is going to live in a house with like 8 cabinets and like 18 inches of counter space max? And I've lived in 2 bedroom apartments with pantries bigger than what they have -- they JUST moved in and are already doing space saver things like using the floor of the pantry to store stuff -- usually that happens a lot later when you've been living someplace for a while and start running out of room. And yeah the fan in the younger girls' bedroom WTH!? The middle girl (no idea who is who) didn't even have to jump on her bunk to touch the fan, she literally just reached out and her hand was there. Hope she's not a kid who flops around in her sleep arms and legs swinging free. And Alyssa just stood there calmly being like -- let's not touch the light -- instead of starting to drill it into the kids' head that they are never to reach up like that because they could get really hurt. I assume they're like eh NBD we just won't ever turn the fan on when the girls are in bed, but if that fan has a wall switch, how easy is it for Ally to come running into their room, turn on the switch to turn on the light so they can play in the middle of the night or whatever. And even if there is no wall switch, you know at some point some kid will get curious about what the pull strings off the fan do and will reach for them while sitting up in that bed . . . . I assume they're doing bunk beds bc Alyssa assumes there will EVENTUALLY be a boy and this house is only 3 bedrooms upstairs and the 4th bedroom downstairs isn't useable for much for about a decade until the kids are older bc you can't have parents in a downstairs master with kids ranging from newborn to age like 6 upstairs alone. So eventually this room becomes a girls' room housing all 4 girls in 2 sets of bunks and the boy gets his own room until/unless he has brothers. Fine just take down the GD fan and put in a light fixture w/ no fan. Someone above said neither J/A seem enthralled with Maci. Who knows. I think they're exhausted too but I think there is no way that Alyssa doesn't feel gender disappointment here. She desperately wants John to have a John Jr. and here we go again, another girl . . . . John OTOH I'm sure wants a boy but I think understands the reality that it may not be in the cards and just doesn't seem entralled with kids generally. I mean he loves them but this is a 30 year old man who is desperate to sleep in, vacation, stay up late, and have sex with his wife -- as demonstrated by how ridiculously happy he was with that crappy staycation they took to an AirBnb in their own city w/o the kids where they stayed up late, ate Cheez its and had sex; like he was pretty clear he had no desire to go pick up the 3 screaming kids when the weekend was over. He's said he doesn't need a John Jr and has also said that one of his brothers had something like 5-6 girls in a row -- so I think he knows that it's quite possible that he's one of the Webster men who won't make a boy. Yet he also knows his wife and he knows she calls the shots including between his legs so until they have a boy or maybe get to 8 girls in a row, yeah they'll keep on trying. For a man who didn't want 3 kids, I'm sure he doesn't want 5 or 7 or whatever just for the chance at a boy. And then let's not forget if/when there's a boy, we must give him a brother or else he'll surely turn out gay . . . so the baby train continues . . . .

So for someone who has vaguely kept up with the Duggars but not closely (last season that I watched was JD and Abbie's wedding in the airplane hangar, IDK if that was a few seasons ago though) -- can someone briefly explain what happened with Jill? I know when she married Derick lots of us around here had "high hopes" -- OMG he's living overseas; he went to a 4 yr college; he broadened her horizons by having her try hummus etc. But then he married into the family and seemed just as nuts as her family. Quit his perfectly fine accounting job bc you shouldn't work for the man; started pursuing some masters in ministry; baby right away; took her to live in central America and apparently she was not ready and traumatized -- something about a falling shower curtain; got in a feud with Jazz etc. That's pretty much when I stopped following probably bc they got dropped from the show. But now I'll see on her Twitter once in a while links to videos they'll do. I haven't watched them as they're kind of long but what I've gathered from People articles re the videos -- he's in law school at a real university doing normal law student things like internships with the Attorney General's Office and the Fed Public Defender's Office, not made up fundie internships; she says they haven't been to her family's house in several years!?; in a direct swipe at her parents they've said they don't believe having as many kids as possible is required or is good parenting, good parenting is knowing and taking care of the kids you have; which likely means they use contraception -- bc she talks about how important sex is so it's not like they've decided after their 2 kids they'll just live like roommates; she drinks!? So what caused all this? Can anyone explain briefly? Any other "scandalous" things about them I should know? Do the more fundie minded siblings simply not talk to her anymore bc she's such a heathen? Or even siblings like Jinger who seem a bit fundy lite to me -- are they mad bc for all these years here was preachy Jill telling them they'll do what God willed, it didn't matter if they liked city life or whatever -- and now here she is with 2 kids knocking back a beer?

So Law has been vaguebooking with pics of clouds with locations marked as Cairo Egypt and then South Sudan. Fortunately pics are from a commercial aircraft, not the jalopy he and his brother fly. What on earth would he be doing in Egypt or South Sudan? Mission trip to preach? Some child there needing medical care in America so they called Lawson like the little girl in the Philippines? I assume it’s the latter as medical missions are kind of his think but how exactly does he earn a living/who pays him for this?!

They're also of the -- credit/interest is bad, never take a mortgage -- old school fundie school of thought (at least as of 2 or so years ago). So unless something is changed, they'd only buy what they could afford in cash. So yeah maybe save your cash and don't spend it on pigs and goats and random other barnyard animals. In an episode 1-2 seasons ago they went looking at houses that they could afford in cash -- OMG they were truly abandoned structures that hadn't been lived in for 40+ years and for some of them you wondered how they remain standing if the wind gusts up to 40 mph. The plan was they'd buy one of these properties and Prince Chad would reno it -- except it wouldn't be a reno like tearing out a kitchen and a few bathrooms like John & Alyssa so much as rebuilding these places from the ground up, including an foundation type of problems which may have developed. And of course speed would be on the essence here bc they'd still be paying rent and living in their current place. Chad seemed worn out just at the thought of it and "jokingly" (but not really joking) suggested they could live with G&K while this was done to save on rent and to give him time to get such a big job done over say 6 mos or a year. Princess Erin wasn't having that and shot it down basically telling him it was his problem how he did it, while keeping sweet of course. The urgency for a house may have changed now though. They have 4 kids in a bedroom and while they probably fear Carson turning gay sharing a bedroom with 3 girls, it's not like they're adding a kid to said bedroom yearly anymore. I think they've said before that they absolutely don't want Carson to be past a certain age and still sharing a bedroom -- I think it was somewhere between 5-7 which is essentially now. I also wonder if the thinking on mortgages has changed. I mean Erin is just like G&K -- so likely a hypocrite -- and she is the comparative type who thinks SHE is the best -- so her man, her kids, her life should be better than anyone's including her siblings. So now Z&W have a nice big new house; Josie & Kelton have totally renovated their rancher into looking new; and J&A are going to have a nice big Fla house with a pool -- does she really want to be in a shack that'll be renovated over time? Though I guess that just means she'll push Chad harder -- none of this make it liveable and move in and it'll get renovated in parts over time; she'll require that it'll be HDTV perfect before she moves in.

I guess that's the positive of such a big family. They can help each other out with these big projects, thus allowing J&A to buy a house that looked like a total foreclosure, knowing they could fix it up without having to spend 100k or more on contractors (which is what this gut renovation would otherwise take). John is a really handy guy -- guess it isn't shocking given that he's in the skilled trades. But they've made great progress so far -- painting and floors moving along quick. The kitchen will likely take time. It was kind of surprising to see Evan & Carlin show up and actually work -- you know not treating this as their beach vacation and being out doing photoshoots. They posted an IG live getting on a flight on Friday at like 5 am and were back in Tenn around 5 pm on Sunday and then the videos in between were basically them painting the whole time except for a dinner out with J&A at Olive Garden. Now it looks like Trace/Warden/Jackson/Isiah are there -- which will help a ton with flooring and things like renovating the bathroom since they do some of that work with Chad day to day. I wonder if Chad makes an appearance at some time for the harder worker like putting together the kitchen -- though who knows Erin is like Kelly, I could see her being like nope sorry I can't manage 4 kids alone for an entire weekend esp given how much we've been thru with our baby train lately, not sending Chad. I feel like in that family the kids closest to Alyssa are -- Zach; Trace; and Josie. Trace has already come down there once and I imagine he may return. I wouldn't be surprised if Zach spends a weekend down there at some point; while he doesn't have a specific skill, he is super handy as I think he used to make money on the side doing foundation/concrete work so he can probably do a lot of general re-model work. And Kelton's plumbing skills could certainly be useful as they have to re-do the entire kitchen, John had said there was a leak in there which they needed to find the source of before they could re-do the kitchen and he could do general bathroom reno work too. G&K yeah they ain't coming -- not even to babysit the kids. They'll show up when J&A are ready for a house warming party where their kids can act like they've never been fed fruit or appetizers before as they hoover up plates of food meant for all the guests, and more importantly when they can jump into J&A's pool bc I mean they are always looking for free activities for Jeb/Jud/Callie/Ellie/Addie. I mean it's going to save Gil $$ now bc when they visit J&A while they still have to rent an AirBnb (bc the new house isn't THAT big), they no longer have to rent a place with a pool in order to feel like they're on a Fla. vacay bc they can just go and swim in J&A's pool . . . win win.

I cannot imagine that any woman is put on Heparin/told she has a clotting issue and then told -- but NBD we can give this to you for your yearly pregnancy so you can achieve your dream of 10+ kids. I feel like normal drs -- who aren't Vick and who aren't fundie -- WOULD caution you about back to back to back pregnancies and talk to you about starting to think about limiting family size once you have say 2-3 kids (because before that people tend to say - well I want my kid to have a sibling or we're trying for a boy or whatever and are more likely to ignore dr. advice) bc they don't want such a young person on a heparin type of medicine for the long term bc they are pregnant yearly. But I mean we've seen Dr. Vick even bring up Jesus/things being in God's hands (to Michael/Brandon when they went to get a second opinion on complications), so yeah I imagine the medical care they're getting is partly medical, partly ministry. IDK for sure but I think Josie goes to Univ of Tenn for her care; IDK why I think this except I think they shared pics from their hospital when their first kid was born and it appeared to be UT based on logos etc. So at least she's getting 100% medical advice not -- what would God want you do to. I wouldn't be shocked if she's being told that after 2 or maybe 3 pregnancies in 3 years, she will need to take a break to not be on heparin. Or maybe she's being told plan on 2-4 kids and that's all we'd recommend for safety sake, esp. if she has shared with them the complications her sister is having. You would think with Kelton's history with losing his own mother so young to child birth, now that this heparin thing has come up for Josie (bc I don't think it was an issue in pregnancy #1), he'd exercise his headship and be like nope we're done with 2 kids, I'm team #girldad. But while they may be slightly more modern than the Bates, they are still fundie and I can't see them making that decision esp with Josie only being 21 and having 2 decades of child bearing ahead. And most especially bc they only have 2 girls and have not yet made a boy for Kelton and a brother for said boy. I can't see them even thinking of quitting until there are 2 boys which is 4 kids minimum and more if there are some more girls along the way.

Honestly they're not gonna believe "Covid makes you infertile" as much as they're gonna believe the VACCINE makes you infertile. I believe that's one of the conspiracy theories out there. I'm guessing this family isn't running around looking for the vax. The Stewart family (IDK about E&C but Evan's loud mouthed younger bro) totally buys the vax conspiracies so I wouldn't doubt if the Bates do too, as well as other fundies. Also one of the pre pubescent Duggar boys got married last week in Texas. I wonder how much of the Bates clan traveled for that and rubbed elbows with all the other unmasked guests. The Duggars/whoever he married put out a pretty clear statement that guests "would not be forced to wear masks" and would mingle as if it was 2019 -- so yay shared cheez its at the reception for everyone! Lawson seems like he went bc he was posting from the Fort Worth rodeo later in the weekend, but I'd be surprised if he went alone.

As much as I don't agree with Erin's aspirations for 10 kids etc., I certainly feel bad for what she has been thru healthwise and wouldn't snark on her. But I legitimately don't understand this family. In many circles and in many (most?) parts of the country covid WAS billed as NBD -- just a fever that east and west coasters were freaking out and shutting down the economy for. And in this family I think they've put out that Erin; Carlin; Evan; Josie and maybe Kelton though unclear on him; and maybe someone in the Zach/Whit family had it (though I do recall there being some kind of season update where there was a screen saying multiple family members had it so who knows maybe there are others as well). Ok so most of these people are young 20 somethings so it prob was a fever etc. for a week. But reality is there ARE members of their family who've had complications -- didn't Josie say she miscarried after she recovered from covid sometime in the late summer/fall? And then Erin also had covid in August and had complications. Yet this family continued to party the whole time as if NBD -- even though 2 people in THEIR family experienced something more than just a fever!? I mean Carlin & Evan went to Arkansas to buy a car from the Duggars; flew back home to Knox; have visited/stayed with or hosted Joy Duggar at least 3-4 times in the last 6 months; went to Disney on vacation with Evan's family; went on a summer beach vacation to Fla with the Bates clan where they also met up with Alyssa - you know with the heart issue; the Bates clan went to Alyssa's for thanksgiving; recently the whole clan went skiing in Colorado; hosted I Love You Day; and all of them go to church/church choirs etc. as if NBD bc if church is allowed, of course you go. WTH!? And they're usually always maskless -- or wearing it as a chin strap only to pull it up where someone will be checking like just before boarding a plane or walking into a building. I can see how you'd take something lightly if you really had not seen the effects of it. But this is a family where there are clotting disorders (at least amongst women - we don't know about the men bc they've likely never been tested since men's clotting has nothing to do with their fertility) and covid is one of those awful things where the complications can be unrelated to respiratory effects -- i.e. things like clotting. And STILL they didn't cut back their activities? Sure now there are vaccines out so maybe the ski vacation was more acceptable but really are all 2 dozen people who went skiing vaccinated with 2 shots as of 2 weeks ago? Unlikely given that the vaccine wasn't THAT broadly available and they'd really have to chase it down and I don't see them as the types who are like -- yeah I wake up at 5 am every day bc that's when spots open at my local pharmacies. In fact I wonder if they'd even get the vaccine at all -- I know Evan's brother was all over IG with the vax conspiracy theories re computer chips or whatever. The only people who've been MIA this last year have been Brandon and Michael. They didn't go on the Florida summer vacation, nor the Thanksgiving trip, nor the ski trip, nor do I ever see them in the church pics. I assume they were at I Love You day though haven't seen pics. They tend to lay low on IG anyway but they do tend to post when they go places/do stuff together and it's been a quiet year for them -- and Michael's most recent post was re an outdoor picnic with Brandon. I wonder if they're just staying away from the family/others as much as possible until they can be vaccinated (which Michaela might be already as a nursing student but Brandon likely not as a young work from home guy). I could see them using school as an excuse -- oh we've been sooo busy -- or oh it isn't safe for YOU for us to stop by all the time bc Michaela sees patients while secretly being relieved they don't have to go. Even early on Lawson would go mow Michael/Brandon's lawn and she'd leave dinner or an iced coffee or whatever on the porch for him -- not invite him in or even go out and chat with him. I could see school being a decent excuse here - Michaela is trying to wrap up nursing school I believe this semester and during the update show Brandon had said that he was using the quarantine downtime by taking some coursework/certification dealing with computer editing etc. I could just see them being more up to date and well read on what's going on.

I think it HAS happened that way for one of the daughters before -- first pregnancy was fine and then in the next one they discovered oh you have the clotting disorder too. I think it might have been Tori. IDK how it's discovered but I assume it's via bloodwork so first pregnancy bloodwork is border line but fine so they don't have to do anything about clotting; next pregnancy maybe it looks like the bloodwork is just over the line where the clotting issue matters. Thing is besides Erin IDK if anyone of them really WANT 19 kids or even say 10-12 kids. Erin IS Kelly so she probably wants 19 and the "acclaim" that comes with them and with her and Chad being the hot fertile fundie couple raising dozens of blessings. But Tori -- seems lazy and with 2 boys being the oldest it's not like she is going to have household help for another 8-10 yrs until this unborn girl is old enough. Alyssa -- seems to dislike her huge family and prefers order over chaos which isn't conducive to dozens of kids. Carlin -- that many kids will take the attention off her and her fame whore husband, not to mention he's constantly stressed over finances with ONE kid and they seem like they want the nicer things. Josie -- also seems to dislike her huge family like Alyssa. Katie -- too stupid for words much like Carlin so IDK if she could handle raising that many kids and her NJ boy husband is going to run for the hills if she starts talking about 12 kids; he's one of 2 or 3 which is what's normal where he comes from and likely what he wants too. And Michaela she's the rare one in this group that cherishes EVERY child and as life has worked out she hasn't had any. I think she's be just as fulfilled with 1 as with 4 or 12 or 18 so I don't think she's looking for 19 kids-- honestly I think she'd been over the moon if she was blessed with just 1 or 2.

How do we know Josie has a clotting disorder and is allergic to one of the meds? Was that on the show or an instagram type of discussion? I would hope and assume that KELTON would be the one who'd say, we have 2 kids it's enough. I mean he has a traumatic history here with his mother. Can't imagine he'd feel safe with his wife rolling the dice here. But then they haven't had a boy yet and if they do have a boy has kid #3 then you know that boy needs a brother. But then who knows maybe Josie and Kelton will feel like see God gave us a healthy mom and 2 healthy kids and a medical team that can manage this issue, we MUST have more to honor God. So it appears the clotting disorder is Erin, Tori, Carlin, and now Josie. Alyssa has a heart issue. And Michaela and/or Brandon have an unspecified infertility issue which hasn't allowed them to get pregnant yet. I wonder if G&K -- esp K -- are "disappointed" or feeling like -- how could this happen, we did everything right in terms of how we live, prayer etc. and now we're going to get left behind in the grandbaby race compared to our fr-enemies the Duggars. I think right now it's neck and neck among the two families but if family size gets limited for a few of their daughters, that'll leave them behind in the race long term; whereas amongst the Duggars it's only Jill so far saying that she and husband Derick don't believe in having as many babies as possible/a baby yearly, they'd rather have a few that they know and raise well. I assume K is leaning HARD to Whit and soon on Tiff and Esther as well to keep making babies ASAP. Whit probably will be into it -- much to Zach's concern -- bc she wants nothing more than to fit in with this family. Esther -- probably as she's fundie as well though I believe she's from a family of 6-8 kids not 19. Tiff -- more of a wildcard. Cali girl, Asian, one brother, has had a life acting as a child/teen actress etc., she prob thinks it's highly abnormal to even have 8 kids let alone 10+. Plus there's a good chance she will convince Law to live on the west coast -- I mean he seems to love the San Diego life too. Even a cottage to stuff your half dozen kids into -- ala Chad/Erin -- isn't cheap in San Diego, so they may run into some pragmatic limitations esp if they end up in Cali.

Didn't see the baby book thing but it's up -- her and Kelton on a parking garage roof with confetti poppers. Hazel Sloan. So it'll be at minimum 4 kids for them. They now need a boy for Kelton and in this cult all boys must have a brother so that makes 4 kids if they get 2 boys back to back or more if there's some more girls mixed in there. Isn't bestie Bobby's wife also having a girl this time due around the same time? Built in best friends for the next gen.