cereality

Thanks for the summary @Jeeves. It's interesting that it is about money (at least in part) -- I had no idea they weren't being paid. Ultimately though I imagine Derick after a few yrs of marriage and a kid or 2 realized he was Mr. Duggar and didn't like it and probably was willing to do something about it given how much he appears not to respect JB/Michelle. I mean he seems like a douche still (watched a few min of a few videos last night) so I doubt he has buddies who could talk sense into him, but maybe it was his brother's marriage that made him realize his was effed up. I mean he's a southern baptist/conservative Christian too. As much as the Duggars and fundies generally (i.e. Bates etc.) act like the OWN Christianity, living life his way/how he was raised still means they'd be very very Christian conservative with the requisite racism, sexism, anti LGBT etc. stances all in tact. All it means is that he could use non hormonal BC so they end up with 2-4 kids instead of 1100 kids and he can knock back a beer once in a while and win win by showing his wife how effed up her family is and how much they've messed her up emotionally and taken advantage of her in everything from raising all their kids to financially, hey he doesn't have to see them for years if ever. I have to imagine he rushed into being Mr. Duggar because he was freaking out that he wouldn't get married. After all in those conservative Christian communities and esp those that go to school in the south, it's find a steady girlfriend by sophomore year and ring by junior spring with a wedding within a month of graduation. He wasn't able to do that -- I'm sure in large part because his dad died suddenly as a freshman so he was overwhelmed enough that he probably didn't jump into dating or did so really half heartedly and no one fell in love with his douchy self. So then graduation comes and with no bride at the altar he says screw this, I'll go live overseas for a while. 1-2 years ticks by and he realizes hmm I'm not getting any younger and where am I going meet a white Christian. So he fills out an application and emails a resume to JB (I believe they've said this is what JB required back then to start courting) and bam instant courtship. And because Jill back them was SOOOO enamored with her family and how they did things, of course he twisted himself into pretzels saying he wanted to do exactly the same --- noooo I don't even want to hold my gf's hand or kiss her despite being 25 and knowing we'll be hopping into bed together 2 min after our vows a week from now; of course as many kids as God gives us; of course we'll live in any house your father gives us and then put up with his opinion on every aspect of our lives etc. And then at some point he woke up, realized he hated his inlaws and how they live and consequently how he lives and his wife is dumb and all kinds of messed up, so he can convince her to live more like how HE grew up . . . .

Alyssa did not look well to me in that video. I mean John looked tired too but Alyssa just looked wiped out. I wish these people would slow the eff down. This woman just had her second heart surgery just 18 mos ago, then spent 9 or those 18 subsequent months pregnant, pushed out a kid, and like 1 week later was on her feet painting and packing. I mean I get it, it's a seller's market right now so if a house comes up on the market that's in your price range, you have to jump on it. And they have talked about needing a house; I mean they're stacking up kids like t shirts. But I honestly don't understand why it had to be fixed up ASAP to the point where John was working until 2 am daily and Alyssa was there like 6-8 hrs/day painting etc. and 6000 Bates siblings had to come help in shifts all while they have a newborn. I realize that when people buy they want to get into the new house ASAP because they're paying a mortgage on the new house + rent on the old one. Yet somehow I thought the house they rented was rented from John's dad -- maybe I'm wrong on that. Even if it was a 3rd party landlord, was their budget soooo tight that they could not possibly do the work in 2 months instead of 1 and thus pay 2 months more of rent? I know they've said before they're terrible at budgeting and it kind of showed. And that house is underwhelming at best. It's big in terms of square footage but the usage of space is fairly awkward. I mean a family of 6 is going to live in a house with like 8 cabinets and like 18 inches of counter space max? And I've lived in 2 bedroom apartments with pantries bigger than what they have -- they JUST moved in and are already doing space saver things like using the floor of the pantry to store stuff -- usually that happens a lot later when you've been living someplace for a while and start running out of room. And yeah the fan in the younger girls' bedroom WTH!? The middle girl (no idea who is who) didn't even have to jump on her bunk to touch the fan, she literally just reached out and her hand was there. Hope she's not a kid who flops around in her sleep arms and legs swinging free. And Alyssa just stood there calmly being like -- let's not touch the light -- instead of starting to drill it into the kids' head that they are never to reach up like that because they could get really hurt. I assume they're like eh NBD we just won't ever turn the fan on when the girls are in bed, but if that fan has a wall switch, how easy is it for Ally to come running into their room, turn on the switch to turn on the light so they can play in the middle of the night or whatever. And even if there is no wall switch, you know at some point some kid will get curious about what the pull strings off the fan do and will reach for them while sitting up in that bed . . . . I assume they're doing bunk beds bc Alyssa assumes there will EVENTUALLY be a boy and this house is only 3 bedrooms upstairs and the 4th bedroom downstairs isn't useable for much for about a decade until the kids are older bc you can't have parents in a downstairs master with kids ranging from newborn to age like 6 upstairs alone. So eventually this room becomes a girls' room housing all 4 girls in 2 sets of bunks and the boy gets his own room until/unless he has brothers. Fine just take down the GD fan and put in a light fixture w/ no fan. Someone above said neither J/A seem enthralled with Maci. Who knows. I think they're exhausted too but I think there is no way that Alyssa doesn't feel gender disappointment here. She desperately wants John to have a John Jr. and here we go again, another girl . . . . John OTOH I'm sure wants a boy but I think understands the reality that it may not be in the cards and just doesn't seem entralled with kids generally. I mean he loves them but this is a 30 year old man who is desperate to sleep in, vacation, stay up late, and have sex with his wife -- as demonstrated by how ridiculously happy he was with that crappy staycation they took to an AirBnb in their own city w/o the kids where they stayed up late, ate Cheez its and had sex; like he was pretty clear he had no desire to go pick up the 3 screaming kids when the weekend was over. He's said he doesn't need a John Jr and has also said that one of his brothers had something like 5-6 girls in a row -- so I think he knows that it's quite possible that he's one of the Webster men who won't make a boy. Yet he also knows his wife and he knows she calls the shots including between his legs so until they have a boy or maybe get to 8 girls in a row, yeah they'll keep on trying. For a man who didn't want 3 kids, I'm sure he doesn't want 5 or 7 or whatever just for the chance at a boy. And then let's not forget if/when there's a boy, we must give him a brother or else he'll surely turn out gay . . . so the baby train continues . . . .

So for someone who has vaguely kept up with the Duggars but not closely (last season that I watched was JD and Abbie's wedding in the airplane hangar, IDK if that was a few seasons ago though) -- can someone briefly explain what happened with Jill? I know when she married Derick lots of us around here had "high hopes" -- OMG he's living overseas; he went to a 4 yr college; he broadened her horizons by having her try hummus etc. But then he married into the family and seemed just as nuts as her family. Quit his perfectly fine accounting job bc you shouldn't work for the man; started pursuing some masters in ministry; baby right away; took her to live in central America and apparently she was not ready and traumatized -- something about a falling shower curtain; got in a feud with Jazz etc. That's pretty much when I stopped following probably bc they got dropped from the show. But now I'll see on her Twitter once in a while links to videos they'll do. I haven't watched them as they're kind of long but what I've gathered from People articles re the videos -- he's in law school at a real university doing normal law student things like internships with the Attorney General's Office and the Fed Public Defender's Office, not made up fundie internships; she says they haven't been to her family's house in several years!?; in a direct swipe at her parents they've said they don't believe having as many kids as possible is required or is good parenting, good parenting is knowing and taking care of the kids you have; which likely means they use contraception -- bc she talks about how important sex is so it's not like they've decided after their 2 kids they'll just live like roommates; she drinks!? So what caused all this? Can anyone explain briefly? Any other "scandalous" things about them I should know? Do the more fundie minded siblings simply not talk to her anymore bc she's such a heathen? Or even siblings like Jinger who seem a bit fundy lite to me -- are they mad bc for all these years here was preachy Jill telling them they'll do what God willed, it didn't matter if they liked city life or whatever -- and now here she is with 2 kids knocking back a beer?

So Law has been vaguebooking with pics of clouds with locations marked as Cairo Egypt and then South Sudan. Fortunately pics are from a commercial aircraft, not the jalopy he and his brother fly. What on earth would he be doing in Egypt or South Sudan? Mission trip to preach? Some child there needing medical care in America so they called Lawson like the little girl in the Philippines? I assume it’s the latter as medical missions are kind of his think but how exactly does he earn a living/who pays him for this?!

They're also of the -- credit/interest is bad, never take a mortgage -- old school fundie school of thought (at least as of 2 or so years ago). So unless something is changed, they'd only buy what they could afford in cash. So yeah maybe save your cash and don't spend it on pigs and goats and random other barnyard animals. In an episode 1-2 seasons ago they went looking at houses that they could afford in cash -- OMG they were truly abandoned structures that hadn't been lived in for 40+ years and for some of them you wondered how they remain standing if the wind gusts up to 40 mph. The plan was they'd buy one of these properties and Prince Chad would reno it -- except it wouldn't be a reno like tearing out a kitchen and a few bathrooms like John & Alyssa so much as rebuilding these places from the ground up, including an foundation type of problems which may have developed. And of course speed would be on the essence here bc they'd still be paying rent and living in their current place. Chad seemed worn out just at the thought of it and "jokingly" (but not really joking) suggested they could live with G&K while this was done to save on rent and to give him time to get such a big job done over say 6 mos or a year. Princess Erin wasn't having that and shot it down basically telling him it was his problem how he did it, while keeping sweet of course. The urgency for a house may have changed now though. They have 4 kids in a bedroom and while they probably fear Carson turning gay sharing a bedroom with 3 girls, it's not like they're adding a kid to said bedroom yearly anymore. I think they've said before that they absolutely don't want Carson to be past a certain age and still sharing a bedroom -- I think it was somewhere between 5-7 which is essentially now. I also wonder if the thinking on mortgages has changed. I mean Erin is just like G&K -- so likely a hypocrite -- and she is the comparative type who thinks SHE is the best -- so her man, her kids, her life should be better than anyone's including her siblings. So now Z&W have a nice big new house; Josie & Kelton have totally renovated their rancher into looking new; and J&A are going to have a nice big Fla house with a pool -- does she really want to be in a shack that'll be renovated over time? Though I guess that just means she'll push Chad harder -- none of this make it liveable and move in and it'll get renovated in parts over time; she'll require that it'll be HDTV perfect before she moves in.

I guess that's the positive of such a big family. They can help each other out with these big projects, thus allowing J&A to buy a house that looked like a total foreclosure, knowing they could fix it up without having to spend 100k or more on contractors (which is what this gut renovation would otherwise take). John is a really handy guy -- guess it isn't shocking given that he's in the skilled trades. But they've made great progress so far -- painting and floors moving along quick. The kitchen will likely take time. It was kind of surprising to see Evan & Carlin show up and actually work -- you know not treating this as their beach vacation and being out doing photoshoots. They posted an IG live getting on a flight on Friday at like 5 am and were back in Tenn around 5 pm on Sunday and then the videos in between were basically them painting the whole time except for a dinner out with J&A at Olive Garden. Now it looks like Trace/Warden/Jackson/Isiah are there -- which will help a ton with flooring and things like renovating the bathroom since they do some of that work with Chad day to day. I wonder if Chad makes an appearance at some time for the harder worker like putting together the kitchen -- though who knows Erin is like Kelly, I could see her being like nope sorry I can't manage 4 kids alone for an entire weekend esp given how much we've been thru with our baby train lately, not sending Chad. I feel like in that family the kids closest to Alyssa are -- Zach; Trace; and Josie. Trace has already come down there once and I imagine he may return. I wouldn't be surprised if Zach spends a weekend down there at some point; while he doesn't have a specific skill, he is super handy as I think he used to make money on the side doing foundation/concrete work so he can probably do a lot of general re-model work. And Kelton's plumbing skills could certainly be useful as they have to re-do the entire kitchen, John had said there was a leak in there which they needed to find the source of before they could re-do the kitchen and he could do general bathroom reno work too. G&K yeah they ain't coming -- not even to babysit the kids. They'll show up when J&A are ready for a house warming party where their kids can act like they've never been fed fruit or appetizers before as they hoover up plates of food meant for all the guests, and more importantly when they can jump into J&A's pool bc I mean they are always looking for free activities for Jeb/Jud/Callie/Ellie/Addie. I mean it's going to save Gil $$ now bc when they visit J&A while they still have to rent an AirBnb (bc the new house isn't THAT big), they no longer have to rent a place with a pool in order to feel like they're on a Fla. vacay bc they can just go and swim in J&A's pool . . . win win.

I cannot imagine that any woman is put on Heparin/told she has a clotting issue and then told -- but NBD we can give this to you for your yearly pregnancy so you can achieve your dream of 10+ kids. I feel like normal drs -- who aren't Vick and who aren't fundie -- WOULD caution you about back to back to back pregnancies and talk to you about starting to think about limiting family size once you have say 2-3 kids (because before that people tend to say - well I want my kid to have a sibling or we're trying for a boy or whatever and are more likely to ignore dr. advice) bc they don't want such a young person on a heparin type of medicine for the long term bc they are pregnant yearly. But I mean we've seen Dr. Vick even bring up Jesus/things being in God's hands (to Michael/Brandon when they went to get a second opinion on complications), so yeah I imagine the medical care they're getting is partly medical, partly ministry. IDK for sure but I think Josie goes to Univ of Tenn for her care; IDK why I think this except I think they shared pics from their hospital when their first kid was born and it appeared to be UT based on logos etc. So at least she's getting 100% medical advice not -- what would God want you do to. I wouldn't be shocked if she's being told that after 2 or maybe 3 pregnancies in 3 years, she will need to take a break to not be on heparin. Or maybe she's being told plan on 2-4 kids and that's all we'd recommend for safety sake, esp. if she has shared with them the complications her sister is having. You would think with Kelton's history with losing his own mother so young to child birth, now that this heparin thing has come up for Josie (bc I don't think it was an issue in pregnancy #1), he'd exercise his headship and be like nope we're done with 2 kids, I'm team #girldad. But while they may be slightly more modern than the Bates, they are still fundie and I can't see them making that decision esp with Josie only being 21 and having 2 decades of child bearing ahead. And most especially bc they only have 2 girls and have not yet made a boy for Kelton and a brother for said boy. I can't see them even thinking of quitting until there are 2 boys which is 4 kids minimum and more if there are some more girls along the way.

Honestly they're not gonna believe "Covid makes you infertile" as much as they're gonna believe the VACCINE makes you infertile. I believe that's one of the conspiracy theories out there. I'm guessing this family isn't running around looking for the vax. The Stewart family (IDK about E&C but Evan's loud mouthed younger bro) totally buys the vax conspiracies so I wouldn't doubt if the Bates do too, as well as other fundies. Also one of the pre pubescent Duggar boys got married last week in Texas. I wonder how much of the Bates clan traveled for that and rubbed elbows with all the other unmasked guests. The Duggars/whoever he married put out a pretty clear statement that guests "would not be forced to wear masks" and would mingle as if it was 2019 -- so yay shared cheez its at the reception for everyone! Lawson seems like he went bc he was posting from the Fort Worth rodeo later in the weekend, but I'd be surprised if he went alone.

As much as I don't agree with Erin's aspirations for 10 kids etc., I certainly feel bad for what she has been thru healthwise and wouldn't snark on her. But I legitimately don't understand this family. In many circles and in many (most?) parts of the country covid WAS billed as NBD -- just a fever that east and west coasters were freaking out and shutting down the economy for. And in this family I think they've put out that Erin; Carlin; Evan; Josie and maybe Kelton though unclear on him; and maybe someone in the Zach/Whit family had it (though I do recall there being some kind of season update where there was a screen saying multiple family members had it so who knows maybe there are others as well). Ok so most of these people are young 20 somethings so it prob was a fever etc. for a week. But reality is there ARE members of their family who've had complications -- didn't Josie say she miscarried after she recovered from covid sometime in the late summer/fall? And then Erin also had covid in August and had complications. Yet this family continued to party the whole time as if NBD -- even though 2 people in THEIR family experienced something more than just a fever!? I mean Carlin & Evan went to Arkansas to buy a car from the Duggars; flew back home to Knox; have visited/stayed with or hosted Joy Duggar at least 3-4 times in the last 6 months; went to Disney on vacation with Evan's family; went on a summer beach vacation to Fla with the Bates clan where they also met up with Alyssa - you know with the heart issue; the Bates clan went to Alyssa's for thanksgiving; recently the whole clan went skiing in Colorado; hosted I Love You Day; and all of them go to church/church choirs etc. as if NBD bc if church is allowed, of course you go. WTH!? And they're usually always maskless -- or wearing it as a chin strap only to pull it up where someone will be checking like just before boarding a plane or walking into a building. I can see how you'd take something lightly if you really had not seen the effects of it. But this is a family where there are clotting disorders (at least amongst women - we don't know about the men bc they've likely never been tested since men's clotting has nothing to do with their fertility) and covid is one of those awful things where the complications can be unrelated to respiratory effects -- i.e. things like clotting. And STILL they didn't cut back their activities? Sure now there are vaccines out so maybe the ski vacation was more acceptable but really are all 2 dozen people who went skiing vaccinated with 2 shots as of 2 weeks ago? Unlikely given that the vaccine wasn't THAT broadly available and they'd really have to chase it down and I don't see them as the types who are like -- yeah I wake up at 5 am every day bc that's when spots open at my local pharmacies. In fact I wonder if they'd even get the vaccine at all -- I know Evan's brother was all over IG with the vax conspiracy theories re computer chips or whatever. The only people who've been MIA this last year have been Brandon and Michael. They didn't go on the Florida summer vacation, nor the Thanksgiving trip, nor the ski trip, nor do I ever see them in the church pics. I assume they were at I Love You day though haven't seen pics. They tend to lay low on IG anyway but they do tend to post when they go places/do stuff together and it's been a quiet year for them -- and Michael's most recent post was re an outdoor picnic with Brandon. I wonder if they're just staying away from the family/others as much as possible until they can be vaccinated (which Michaela might be already as a nursing student but Brandon likely not as a young work from home guy). I could see them using school as an excuse -- oh we've been sooo busy -- or oh it isn't safe for YOU for us to stop by all the time bc Michaela sees patients while secretly being relieved they don't have to go. Even early on Lawson would go mow Michael/Brandon's lawn and she'd leave dinner or an iced coffee or whatever on the porch for him -- not invite him in or even go out and chat with him. I could see school being a decent excuse here - Michaela is trying to wrap up nursing school I believe this semester and during the update show Brandon had said that he was using the quarantine downtime by taking some coursework/certification dealing with computer editing etc. I could just see them being more up to date and well read on what's going on.

I think it HAS happened that way for one of the daughters before -- first pregnancy was fine and then in the next one they discovered oh you have the clotting disorder too. I think it might have been Tori. IDK how it's discovered but I assume it's via bloodwork so first pregnancy bloodwork is border line but fine so they don't have to do anything about clotting; next pregnancy maybe it looks like the bloodwork is just over the line where the clotting issue matters. Thing is besides Erin IDK if anyone of them really WANT 19 kids or even say 10-12 kids. Erin IS Kelly so she probably wants 19 and the "acclaim" that comes with them and with her and Chad being the hot fertile fundie couple raising dozens of blessings. But Tori -- seems lazy and with 2 boys being the oldest it's not like she is going to have household help for another 8-10 yrs until this unborn girl is old enough. Alyssa -- seems to dislike her huge family and prefers order over chaos which isn't conducive to dozens of kids. Carlin -- that many kids will take the attention off her and her fame whore husband, not to mention he's constantly stressed over finances with ONE kid and they seem like they want the nicer things. Josie -- also seems to dislike her huge family like Alyssa. Katie -- too stupid for words much like Carlin so IDK if she could handle raising that many kids and her NJ boy husband is going to run for the hills if she starts talking about 12 kids; he's one of 2 or 3 which is what's normal where he comes from and likely what he wants too. And Michaela she's the rare one in this group that cherishes EVERY child and as life has worked out she hasn't had any. I think she's be just as fulfilled with 1 as with 4 or 12 or 18 so I don't think she's looking for 19 kids-- honestly I think she'd been over the moon if she was blessed with just 1 or 2.

How do we know Josie has a clotting disorder and is allergic to one of the meds? Was that on the show or an instagram type of discussion? I would hope and assume that KELTON would be the one who'd say, we have 2 kids it's enough. I mean he has a traumatic history here with his mother. Can't imagine he'd feel safe with his wife rolling the dice here. But then they haven't had a boy yet and if they do have a boy has kid #3 then you know that boy needs a brother. But then who knows maybe Josie and Kelton will feel like see God gave us a healthy mom and 2 healthy kids and a medical team that can manage this issue, we MUST have more to honor God. So it appears the clotting disorder is Erin, Tori, Carlin, and now Josie. Alyssa has a heart issue. And Michaela and/or Brandon have an unspecified infertility issue which hasn't allowed them to get pregnant yet. I wonder if G&K -- esp K -- are "disappointed" or feeling like -- how could this happen, we did everything right in terms of how we live, prayer etc. and now we're going to get left behind in the grandbaby race compared to our fr-enemies the Duggars. I think right now it's neck and neck among the two families but if family size gets limited for a few of their daughters, that'll leave them behind in the race long term; whereas amongst the Duggars it's only Jill so far saying that she and husband Derick don't believe in having as many babies as possible/a baby yearly, they'd rather have a few that they know and raise well. I assume K is leaning HARD to Whit and soon on Tiff and Esther as well to keep making babies ASAP. Whit probably will be into it -- much to Zach's concern -- bc she wants nothing more than to fit in with this family. Esther -- probably as she's fundie as well though I believe she's from a family of 6-8 kids not 19. Tiff -- more of a wildcard. Cali girl, Asian, one brother, has had a life acting as a child/teen actress etc., she prob thinks it's highly abnormal to even have 8 kids let alone 10+. Plus there's a good chance she will convince Law to live on the west coast -- I mean he seems to love the San Diego life too. Even a cottage to stuff your half dozen kids into -- ala Chad/Erin -- isn't cheap in San Diego, so they may run into some pragmatic limitations esp if they end up in Cali.

Didn't see the baby book thing but it's up -- her and Kelton on a parking garage roof with confetti poppers. Hazel Sloan. So it'll be at minimum 4 kids for them. They now need a boy for Kelton and in this cult all boys must have a brother so that makes 4 kids if they get 2 boys back to back or more if there's some more girls mixed in there. Isn't bestie Bobby's wife also having a girl this time due around the same time? Built in best friends for the next gen.

Interesting to how they've gone from -- you are not allowed to sit next to your gf for any extended length of time (Zach's first gf) to an annoying 6 yr old who won't even let you speak to your gf bc he'll interrupt every 2 seconds must chaperone your date (Trace) to Lawson pretty much spending 3 straight weeks with his gf. She joined them on the Bates family ski trip. Sure they weren't alone and there were chaperones around bc dozens of siblings were there. But then he flew with her to Ca where he stayed for 1+ weeks for both her birthday and valentines day. Guaranteed her family is normal and wasn't "chaperoning" them. They posted pics from a darkened living room where she was laying on the couch next to him as he watched the super bowl; plenty of beach trips and picnics, no siblings in sight. Now they've flown back to Tenn -- after being stranded overnight at the Dallas airport in the storm. The horror! They were ALONE. Again it's not like they have full privacy in Tenn. esp with her staying at his house, yet they are posting plenty of videos driving around east Tenn by themselves in his car. I mean it's as it should be, he's a grown 28 year old man who doesn't need 6 year olds supervising him bc mommy and daddy said so. But damn G&K have relaxed as they've modernized, gotten used to TV world and the free stuff/publicity from TV world. I mean these are the same people who went from -- dancing/moving to music bring out the devil -- to aww a daddy daughter dance and a first dance at Carlin's wedding is just SO CLASSY . . . . Zach definitely rolled his eyes hard at that -- as he is most aware of his parents' BS -- saying yeah apparently dancing is okay now if it's classical music . . . no devil. Law's gf seems outgoing and relaxed and at least thus far doesn't seem desperate to fit in with the Bates and change who she is. She's at his house now wearing jeans. She's "modeling" for the Bates Sisters' boutique (eyeroll) yet she seems like she WANTS to do it -- unlike Trace's more reserved gf who seemed NOT interested and VERY uncomfortable but he only thinking of HIS family sort of pushed her into doing it AND hanging out all day with his mother and sisters who then harassed her about OMG when will you get married, you ARE moving to Tenn, right and he did nothing to get them to back off. Very happy that girl went running back to Tx. Hopefully this is more a Carlin and Evan situation -- yeah Carlin is loud and irritating (like Law) but so is Evan (hopefully like Tiff) and thus they can put up with each other/enjoy each others' company. Similar relaxation of "standards" with Nathan who flew to Pa to see his gf for Valentines day. They posted pics of him hugging her close, her basically pelvic thrusting into him, and [the scandal] him kissing her on the cheek . . . . I'm sure G&K would say the girls' families set the standards blah blah but reality is these sons are 27-28 years old and out and about without mommy and daddy and without 37 siblings. They're going to do what they want -- which for a normal healthy male means kissing his gf -- regardless of how much it "disappoints" G&K.

So looks like Travis closed on a tiny little house in NJ — which despite being tiny and old prob cost a fair amount because it’s NJ not Rocky Top. Katie is 20 and has been begging for a ring. My guess is he was saying to the Bates — not until I settle down/buy a house. Now with the house in place wonder how fast the ring comes. Sunday is Valentines and I can’t imagine they’re not getting together, they’ve traveled back and forth during the pandemic . . . . Guess G&K couldn’t convince this one to move to the boonies for their daughter and to make the Bates family #1 in his life. Good luck to Katie in N.J. — it can be kind of a tough place and she’s an idiot . . . .

Plus with these Bates sons - Nathan and Lawson - maybe G&K have realized that they are different than Zach and Trace. Zach and Trace lived at home for both of their failed courtships - so they could be more under mommy and daddy's thumbs re you have to take 3 siblings along when your gf comes to visit and/or you're only allowed to take the car (or a flight in Trace's case) to go see your gf if you bring someone with you. With Lawson and Nathan -- losers though they are -- they are out and about on their own with piloting, flight lessons, medical/disaster relief missions, Lawson in Nashville or a video shoot for a week here and there. Sure mommy and daddy can try to apply the rules when their girlfriends come to visit -- and likely they probably do -- like if you're going out, you must take Jeb/Jud to babysit you; I mean I'm 100% positive G&K are the reason that Law was IG videoing out that his ski group was Callie, Ellie and Tiffany and they were shown riding the gondolas together. I mean can't leave a 28 yr old man in a gondola alone with his gf, heaven forbid, they may make a baby right there. BUT with these sons, how can they control the sons' visits to the girlfriends? If they make a big deal about - you must bring Warden or whoever on a trip to Ca. or Pa to visit your gf, it's easy to say -- nah NBD I don't have to go now, we'll see each other in a few weeks for x holiday anyway -- and then on whatever flight or mission (whether real or made up), oh yeah I happened to take a detour in San Diego/Pa. and saw my gf. Frankly they don't even have to tell mommy and daddy though I assume Lawson can't hide much bc if it isn't on IG, it didn't happen.

Damn did the baby train just stop?? With 3 girls and only 1 boy?? Or is there some chance of one more baby bc Carson needs a brother. Anyone know if this is something caused by her clotting disorder?

Trace posted an IG video this morning of going snowboarding down a black diamond and he keeps posting videos of the view from the hot tub at their mountain house which appears to be right there at the resort -- like walk out the door and ski, rather than driving distance to the mountain. Given that they're raising a bunch of sons to be grifters with no marketable skills (sure they don't grift like Gil yet but IDK expecting Chad to just provide you a job whenever you need one is kind of grifting in a different form), G&K sure are introducing them to expensive hobbies and giving them expensive tastes. I'm guessing it's all comp-ed by UPTv and if we see Chad/Erin, Zach/Whit, Michael/Brandon, and Bobby/Tori flying in, it'll mean they are also using the vacation for an over the top I Love You day. But damn UPTv will go away, you'll blink and will be 35 with no real career and vacations then will look like driving to stay in a "cool" hotel in Toledo . . . . Champagne tastes right now on an eventual beer budget . . . .

They could be behind but I figured it just meant she and her family arrived Monday-ish and he’s only taking off Thursday/Friday so he’ll arrive Wed night. Their kid’s first birthday was Jan 31 — no way they wouldn’t have been together then; they posted pandemic birthday party pics all weekend and said party featured his parents and also bestie Joy Duggar — pretty sure those people aren’t in Colorado.

She was a child actress - wow mind blown. She was actually on Nickelodeon, not fundie TV. She is some type of a conservative Christian having gone to Liberty University but yeah looks like she's had a life and actual human interaction before Lawson; like she/her family have dealt with agents, auditions etc. all of which are tough even at the child level in a place like Ca. where there is TONS of competition. Could be that she ends up not getting a $hit about Kelly - unlike Whit who was soooo desperate to fit in with the Bates and be the sisters' bestie and make Kelly happy. Also wouldn't be surprised if she has already told Lawson she isn't moving to Tenn and wants to stay in Ca. Looks like she still had some modest roles as of 2019-2020 so this isn't something she did 15 years ago. Lawson in that case will have to find himself a career. He isn't a tradesman like his brothers in law. I assume he may have stars in his eyes about moving to Cali bc OMG he's a MUSICIAN but competition is cut throat and he isn't that good; and in Cali lots of those guys end up in production, writing etc. Maybe his future wife could hook him up to get him started on a writing gig but eventually he'd need education to get into music production bc there are tons of ppl in Cali to choose from for every job opening in that area. Or maybe he'll become full time with MediCorps -- it likely pays when he flies to disasters and stays there for weeks but not steady money when there is no need for them to deploy and being 29+ when he marries most likely -- and having gone so many years without getting any -- I don't see him as the type of guy who'll want to be away from his newlywed bride for weeks at a time [ahem].

Yeah Josie/Kelton were posting IG stories last night from the airport -- mask below the nose of course -- to show how cute their kid was at the airport or whatever. Looks like they've appeared in Colo bc Carlin is tagging Josie in videos. I assume such a big vacation to Breckenridge is paid for by UPTv. And yeah it's an alternative reality as the poster above says -- no pandemic, endless vacations and vacation time. I mean Kelton owns his own business with his other plumbers being Bobby, his brother, and a 4th guy. Seeing what we've seen on Bobby's plumbing interest and acumen, he can't left to handle jobs alone. So maybe his bro and the 4th guy are more experienced and will hold down the fort thru the weekend? Most small business folks especially in their first year and esp in a pandemic where business has likely been slower bc people don't want people in their home unnecessarily don't WANT to take too much time off esp not on weekdays. As John says about his family's small (but established) HVAC business, if they call you and you're not available to come out that day to fix their issue, guess what they go to the next company on the list and aren't calling you back. He's actually said this as a reason that he takes no days off in the summer bc for HVAC in Orlando, summer is the busy season. Carlin is saying on IG that Evan is on his way and will stay thru the weekend so prob the same for Kelton. Except Evan is still a student apprentice which is more of a job so he has/has taken time off on Thursday/Friday -- he's not losing business. Kelton OTOH has taken time off Wed-Friday even if it costs him $$. Wonder if bestie Bobby is there too. And seriously G&K, all the minor kids, Trace, Law and his gf, Nathan and his gf, Evan & Carlin, and Kelton & Josie -- I think that's everyone on this trip -- ZERO concerns about the pandemic and being in airports/planes/they're indoor dining in Colo etc.?? I guess many have had it but still . . . .

So I guess it's confirmed that Lawson's gf is Tiffany Espensen (IG tiffypics). They are on a ski vacation now in Colorado (what pandemic - LOL - though I guess many/most of them have had it) and he's posting IG videos that she's in. Checked her IG and she is also posting Colorado videos. She lives in Ca at/near a beach, which explains why he's constantly in Ca at the beach these days. Her IG is followed by every Bates on IG and she posted a pic (without any of them) from downtown Knox at Tenn saying it was a Tenn Christmas for her. She's beautiful -- she's Asian and adopted bc her family is white and she posted something celebrating National Adoption Day. Seems fundie/fundie lite bc there are a TON of Bible posts. I had a feeling he had a thing for Asians -- with all his time in the Philippines, I just had that vibe. I hope for their sake they settle in Ca. Though doing what exactly -- Ca. isn't cheap. But IDK an Asian-American in this family having to live in Rocky Top and see the Bates multiple times per week? I mean I can already hear Kelly/Erin/Whit/Carlin -- oh she's my Vietnamese/Philippino/Thai/whatever sister in law BUT she's great [despite not being REALLY American blah blah]. The only person that I feel would be genuinely nice to her would be Michael (and Josie would just ignore her since she doesn't want to hang with family all the time anyway). Plus adopted -- ugh Kelly with the sins of the father/her parents abandoned her nonsense to make the most secure person feel insecure. I mean she bullied Whit into reconnecting with her parents but that is likely impossible here as many adoptions of Asians coming to America are done with kids who live in orphanages -- they may not even remember having parents; it's possible something happened to their parents so they ended up in orphanages etc. But I can see Kelly trying to co-opt her into EVERYTHING Bates, all Bates holidays, traditions, child rearing etc. bc oh she never had real traditions. Uh yeah she did with the Espensen family that adopted and raised her -- but to Kelly that won't be her REAL family.

I’m sure. I assume the Bates said no thing comes up bc he got off on the wrong foot. And now as the years go buy he sees that G&K are the lazy grifting types. G pushing off tree work to the older boys since they’ve created no full time careers and rather work for Chad here or constable shifts there. Meanwhile Kelly pushes off as much of the raising of the remaining kids to the older girls as she can get away with; Michael is expected to jump in anytime there’s any need etc. His own family seems different. Like they don’t seem averse to hard work. Dad owns an IT business and doesn’t push the work off to his sons given that none of them are in IT; he is also raising his remaining kids at home alone and is shown cooking etc. Kelton and one of his brothers both could plumbers licenses and did the necessary apprentice work to become tradesmen before they went off to college. So clearly Kelton’s dad taught his sons to be industrious. To say nothing of the fact that the Bates are loud, obnoxious and take over everything whether it’s wedding planning or a kids birthday. Doesn’t seem like he likes that behavior. Nor does he want his inlaws to push his quieter dad out of the way and out of his grandkids’ lives. He probably realizes if he gives his inlaws an inch, they’ll take 100 miles so he steers clear.

I don't necessarily think it was so wrong either. I mean when I was in 9th grade, no way my parents would have let me hang out with a senior/headed off to college guy. IDK to many parents of 14 year old daughters who would given the things that happen in the real world. In their cult, I think it's different though. They're soooo conservative yet if a boy comes calling for your daughter at any age, you should be 1000% flattered and be thanking God that her husband that you've prayed for since her birth has arrived and she won't be an old maid with no children. And I think from Kelton's perspective he saw it as a huge slap in the face of his Godly-ness -- like they don't trust me, they think I'm like those worldly heathen 17 year old boys who'll try to get physical with their daughter? In all likelihood he knew that he'd be "dating" per cult rules -- i.e. he hangs out at their house, 62 siblings in tow; if on the rare occasion she gets to go to his house, his siblings and dad must be in tow; if they get to go out, ALL the parents will come and sit at another table . . . So he was insulted the Bates didn't even allow that. But yeah I think it's a bit much to still be salty about that 6+ years later when you've married the girl and are sleeping with her and making babies with her!?

Kelton is 4 years older than Josie. He met her/saw her someplace (I want to say it was something like a piano recital) when he was about to head off to college -- he would have been 18 and Josie would have been 14. He was interested in dating her then, which I think in their world just means being friends/texting her or getting together with their siblings in tow, nothing physical. Gil said no they couldn't communicate at all. He was hurt by that -- probably bc he was like I'm a Godly man, not trying to have sex with your daughter, I'd just like to text with her from college, maybe visit your family when I could home for the holidays etc. So apparently he was so offended by it that it STILL comes up -- or at least we heard it when he was 23-ish and getting married to her. When setting up her courtship ask, he was talking to his dad about how tough that time was and Dad told him, go to college, get a degree/live your life, become the type of man Josie wants to be with; though I suspect the problem wasn't that JOSIE wasn't interested, it was that mommy/daddy were so controlling that they wouldn't even allow her to text a boy and see if they grew interested or not. And then even at his freaking wedding rehearsal toast, best friend Bobby talked about how Kelton had such a hard time knowing he couldn't be with Josie but at the same time was such a good friend that he was encouraging Bobby to get with Tori even though it'd mean Bobby would get to come up to the Bates' and hang with Tori but Kelton wouldn't hang with Josie!? The Bates don't see it as an issue -- when he finally started dating her and asked to marry her, they thanked him for waiting until they were comfortable. So I think they see it as water under the bridge but it's unclear whether he does. And then more generally, it's just his demeanor when he's with the Bates. I think he just got off on the wrong foot with them and sees them as annoying, controlling rubes. Like he doesn't even try to engage in the BS of Law, Nathan, and Trace. He seems to like Zach but I think it's also bc he sees that Zach is over his parents. When he was talking about asking the Bates' permission to get engaged, he and Josie went to dinner with Z&W and Z basically rolled his eyes and was like -- just tell my dad you've been praying about it and God laid it on your heart that Josie is your wife, how's he gonna argue with that?? Lol. I also think he wants a life like Zach's -- he's willing to work hard for a nice home, vacations, a life without 37 kids etc. Thank goodness best friend Bobby married into the family bc at least he has someone to hang with when he's forced to go to I Love You day etc. The general lack of interest in the Bates probably also stems from the fact that he's close with his own family -- having been raised by his widower father, having siblings who are still teens/early 20s and being interested in how they turn out etc. -- and his family is in the same area. So I think he realizes if he lets the Bates in too much, they're the loud obnoxious types that are given an inch and take a mile and he'll be spending every holiday and birthday with them (like best friend Bobby) and they'll make sure his family is left out, his kids don't know his dad etc.

And IIRC correctly Bobby is only one of 3 kids himself -- I believe he has 2 sisters. From what we saw of his home/parents when he was courting, he grew up upper middle class -- large size single family home in Fla with a pool, huge yard that backs up onto a lake etc. Even his college apartment (which I imagine his parents paid for though he had Kelton as a roommate so it wasn't a private apt) was a nice relatively new-ish apartment on/walkable to the beach. This isn't a guy who grew up in a shack with his 37 siblings nor in a family which was stretching one pot of soup 50 ways or vying for leftovers if mom and dad got to go out to dinner and bring home the remaining bite of steak. Yet if he ends up having a kid yearly for the next 5-10 years, his life will be closer to how the Bates grew up rather than how he grew up. Though I guess he cemented that when he moved into a trailer to be close to his sweetie post-college; his parents never looked thrilled at his choice of girlfriend/wife/inlaws. I wonder what they're thinking now. With 3 grandkids, they may be ok -- they got a Robert Smith IV, that child got a brother, and now a granddaughter. But given that their son is 25 and will have this many kids within 3.5 years of marriage AND is married to a woman whose family thinks 10 or 15 kids is normal, they may be hoping the baby train slows/stops.