MissEwa

I may be misremembering, but wasn't Angelina the one who in one of the very first talking heads was really obnoxious about how the Goliaths were all attractive and strong-looking and the Davids were a gang of gross misfits? Not verbatim, obviously, but whether she's actually a villain or not, she is definitely getting a mean girl edit.

@KimberStormer That is great analysis - thank you! I think some combination of letting them pick and show interference is really the only way, but it needs to be fair. Also it is ridiculous that Parvati somehow manages to look put-together in every single one of those photos, and not like a hobo who is dressing themselves out of the same sack full of clothes every day for six weeks.

Yeah I literally could not care less about bag-raiding, but that was COLD. I don't know what it was but yeeesh, what an awful person.

This leads to a question: If Dan somehow found out about an idol nullifier (or if, say, Carl got cocky at tribal and announced it), could he play both idols on himself at once, have one be nullified and the other save him? Because that would be kind of cool. (I still have an unhealthy obsession with the idol nullifer. I'm sorry.) Lyrsa's jacket is actually super-cute, but that whole thing was weird and awkward and both Angelina and Natalie came off terribly. Angelina can go next, really.

Yep, if both sides have idols, then it could be useful for the minority too (although I'd still argue it's easier to use if you're in the majority). Using it from the minority successfully requires that a) you've got an idol and play it correctly OR b) the majority splits their votes, which is risky AF when they don't have a 2:1 margin, even with the above (and I feel like anyone who's seen even a second of survivor would be like 'why are they suggesting we vote Steve? He *clearly* has an idol. Let's vote Jane.' but we've seen plenty of boneheaded moves in the past, so it could happen). But you're right. My point was more against the idea that it's somehow hard to use, or requires any degree of correct knowledge/guesswork about idols. If you vote for someone, and use the nullifier, and they get the most (eligible) votes, the go home. Who has/plays idols is irrelevant. I think because it's called an 'idol nullifier' it's somehow being tied to knowledge about idols, but that's a misdirect - using it successfully only requires knowledge about votes.

How? It's not 'insider intel' to know who your alliance is voting for, that's what an alliance is. If you're not in one, then yeah, it's useless. ETA. It's why I don't like it. It's really only useful if you already have the numbers and there's not a lot of strategy to it. It's not hard to play, you just already have to be in a good position to do so (unlike other advantages/idols, which could potentially be useful from any position).

I may be wrong, and please - honestly - if I am someone explain it to me because I've been thinking about it a LOT and I'm confusing myself, but I think the only thing you need to play this advantage correctly is to have the numbers, and be in the know on the vote (ie. pretty much be in the majority alliance). I think it's actually quite hard to play *incorrectly*, at least in any way that matters. Example (ignore the names, they're just pulled out of the air): It's post merge and the alliances run 6-4. The 6 know that someone - it doesn't matter who - on the 4 has an idol. They want to vote out Dan, because of the 4, he is the clear leader, a challenge beast and likeable enough to win at the end. He's also the obvious person for the 4 to play their idol on, because of those factors. Without a vote nullifier, the 6 would either try some weird vote split, or try voting for Alison, who they'll be least likely to use the idol on. WITH the vote nullifier, they vote 6 votes for Dan, and play the vote nullifier on Dan. And then... - Dan plays an idol, it's null. Dan goes home. - Mike plays an idol. Dan goes home. - Alison has an idol and plays it for Dan. It's null. Dan goes home. - Nobody plays an idol. Dan goes home. - The 4 actually have three idols and have won immunity. They play all of them. Dan's idol is null. Dan... goes home. YMMV, but I'd say in all those cases the nullifier was used correctly, in that it ensured the person you wanted out went home. Who actually had/played the idol is irrelevant. It's really less about the idol and more about the votes. It's an insurance policy. The only way to play it *incorrectly* is to play it when you don't have the numbers. So if two of the six had actually flipped, in which case whether or not Dan has an idol is irrelevant anyway, or if your alliance doesn't trust you one bit and has told you the wrong person to write down, in which case... you're screwed anyway. It's also near-useless if you're in the minority alliance (unless you also have an idol, and play *that* correctly). The only strategy, I guess, is deciding *when* to use it, whether it's better to hold it until 5/6 or use it at 11/10/9. But as I said, maybe I'm missing something.

So much this. I hate alliance names at the best of times but like... these are barely alliances. I'm not sure about the idol nullifier. On the one hand, it's not another idol, so that's good. And it's not an extra vote, which is great because those universally fizzle. But it's not very strategic, I feel? I was confused when Carl was like 'you need to guess who's going to play the idol and use it on them' because you don't. You just play it on whoever you're voting for (your primary target) if you suspect they have an idol, instead of trying a vote split, surely? If they play the idol, it's null and they go home. If someone else plays the idol, your primary target still goes home. Technically, in that case - or if no idol is played - I guess it's wasted, but there's no "guessing" involved. It's not like you'd play it for anyone your alliance wasn't throwing the majority of the votes at. It's just insurance (unless I'm missing something). And there's no real way to counter it, as far as I can tell. Like, sure, you could trick someone into wasting it, but that's about it. And if you know about it and you have an idol and know you're the target then... what? You can't just not play your idol, you'll go home anyway. You can't give your idol to someone else, because everyone's voting for you. If it gets played and you get the most votes, you go home. The only thing that might happen, if it hangs around for multiple seasons, is that people will get savvier about keeping their idols secret, so nobody knows about them until they get played. Which... is fine, I guess? I don't know... I thought I liked it at first but now I feel like, element of surprise aside, it's kind of boring. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

The got a fishing spear and a pole, I think. There were definitely two long things, one was thinner and looked more like a spear and the other like a pole. I feel like when Jeff held it up it had line running along it, but I can't remember for sure.

The first episode was terrible but I enjoyed this! I like the Davids more than the Goliaths but I don't hate *all* the Goliaths as a group like I did last week, and I like that there are, across the board, a lot of not-your-typical-Survivors on this season. I'm glad we got the tragedy porn out of the way in one season too. Now let's hope for a swap soon so we can quit with this awful theme. Me too. It was right on that line of incredibly awkward and hilarious. I so, so want to think she is playing him, but I can't tell. I didn't see this answered but I think the pole is an actual fishing pole, which they've never gotten before. +1 to both those points. Someone upthread pointed out that Bi's problem on the ladder was maybe being short, but yeah, she hasn't done anything of note - I guess she was deflecting because in a lot of seasons *she* would be the boot just because she cost them that challenge (especially if she volunteered to do that part, which we didn't see). Jessica and Bi played that so badly. I definitely agree about the cool-kid thing but also if someone's coming to you to talk boots and wants more information, you... go along with it, make some stuff up, do a bit of reassuring. The way Jess was talking to her and shutting her down was never going to end well. It's been clarified though - this has been happening for seasons and seasons and the players know (or they should). Yeah, it's not cool but it's a game for a million dollars. YMMV but in that scenario I don't know that I'd even care, idols aside. It's not their personal day-to-day handbags with all sorts of credit cards and ID and diaries. They're carrying around, what? Some clothes? A change of underwear? AFAIK things like medication, if they need it, get held by production and doled out. I get that people like the comfort of having one thing that is 'off limits' but in this case I don't really get why? Also in this case it wasn't even in his bag, but in the pocket of his jacket, which was hanging over a stick on the beach? it wouldn't take much more than picking it up to go 'hey, there's something in the pocket', and even if you didn't look there aren't that many things that could be.

Yes. I cringed so much at this. WHY would you hold hands at work? Like maybe at work-related functions, but... in meetings? Walking between cubicles? Noooooo.

This. That was... almost impressively incoherent. It went exactly how you'd expect a show being run by a writers room that were fighting about plots to go. If someone told me they wrote this episode - or this whole season, in fact - by playing that game where each person writes a sentence and then covers it up and passes the page to the next person, I wouldn't be surprised. The worst was the one where she had it all swept to the side, and it looked cute from the front, but then they showed the back and there were these ugly pins all down the side, like they'd just forgotten to finish it off. There's a recurring joke in the Again With This podcast that the 90210 hair and make-up team must have hated Jennie Garth, and I am starting to wonder if this team hates Hilary Duff. Her hair and make-up have been terrible all season - all of them have had their moments, but hers have been the worst. Yeah. I felt like her taking the job would have set up some cool conflict with Kelsey, which is always much more interesting than her relationship with Charles. The name was terrible but no matter how many times this show tells me otherwise I still don't believe people pay that much attention to who publishes their books. And it was SUCH a step up. I know it's supposed to speak to her character but this is someone who created this whole new identity just to get into this business, the fact that she stays with Empirical feels like a cop-out. Interestingly, that scene in the park was the first time I've seen any spark between Charles and Liza, but I think it ended just right. They have both been in that stupid bubble all season and now reality has kicked in and they've realised exactly how much they've given up for this relationship, before it's even started. Josh's baby dream: I don't get the outrage. He *knows* he's not going to have a baby with Liza. It doesn't stop him wanting it. That's human nature. And besides, I read it more that it made him realise that he didn't want to be a 'babydaddy' but an actual father with someone he loves, and he'd rather hold off and wait for that, whenever it happens. Liza was just there because he still has feelings for her. The Claire thing was trite and terrible though. UGH.

I actually found this relatively believable, and I don't think she specifically thought this of Zane but that past experience has shown her that she should expect it period. Kelsey's not exactly had the best of experience with men - even if you ignore all the totally inappropriate flings she's had with writers and co-workers, she was engaged to Thad! It rang depressingly true to me that being taken advantage of while inebriated is within her realm of "normal".

Aside from all the reasons listed above for why Charles is terrible at running a company, why was he telling Liza all those details about Empirical's situation and the potential investors? I get that he's sad and wants a friend but a) they're not together and b) she's STILL HIS EMPLOYEE and surely this kind of stuff should remain somewhat confidential and not blabbed to a Marketing Assistant because you have a crush on her. At the very least his investors probably don't want their names casually dropped before they've even committed. He has no boundaries, it's so hard to watch. Also yeah they mucked up the timeline - Christmas was three (?) episodes ago and now it's the Mid-October Frankfurt Book Fair. Nope. Although maybe that's an answer to that whole 'how did Marriage Vacation go from a pitch to finished to released to on Good Morning America in five episodes?' question from last season - there's some sort of time-space thing going on and every week of personal-life show-time is actually three months of Empirical/Millenial show-time.

I came to Younger a little late and I was at the end of Season 1 when a friend asked me if I was Team Josh or Team Charles and I was so confused that there was a Team Charles. Not just in the fandom but I hadn't seen anything about him in the show that made me think 'romantic lead' at all. I still don't get it. Part of it, I guess, is something that someone touched on here in the forums a few weeks ago. I feel like if she ends up with Charles it's basically her going back to her old life of wife and mother, but with an upgraded partner. He's a safe, conventional option. With Josh she was out of her comfort zone but I think happier and more interesting.

It was like he was trying to avoid her lips and so went for her chin instead. Very weird. I am (obviously) not on Team Charles but even I thought that was sudden. I know these seasons are short but it just felt really jarring to break them up so soon, especially after all that build-up. I think I prefer Josh away from Liza now, although I do like their friendship - when it is a friendship and not him being jealous of Charles or pining for her. Also that dragon tattoo looked old and faded and not like something worthy of compliments on the linework.

Not directed at me and I wouldn't go so far as to say he grosses me out but I get where @Ms Blue Jay is coming from. There's something kind of strange and rubbery about him, imo. It's partly in the way he looks but also in his mannerisms and speech patterns - sometimes I actually find him difficult to watch (and definitely to listen to). But, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that... ETA. The Empirical/Millenial structure stuff is probably born out of something vaguely realistic about publishing houses and imprints. It is messy and decisions get made by all sorts of people - it surprises me that they don't ever have Diana be like 'yeah, no, we're not going to be able to sell that', because that would happen too. The unrealistic bit is that they act like anyone outside the business cares. Most book buyers don't even know who publishes what, and they surely don't care. The writer might, but in reality Charles should have been able to sway him with a good editor and a generous marketing budget.

I could be way off the mark but I read the whole Charles-Redmond thing differently and thought Charles knew he and Liza were busted, and in part he bought the book as a way to keep Redmond from causing trouble (much like Liza buying that cat book a few seasons ago, but this one was actually good). I thought Kelsey read it that way as well which is why she was so furious. I know I have to let go of the Josh dream but I liked his easy chemistry with Kelsey etc. when Lauren told her about the award. He was huggy and genuinely thrilled for her but it didn't read sleazy. I'm sad there's not more for him to do. Speaking of Kelsey, her hair in this episode was so strange. In that scene where she was accepting the award it was hugely wide and big on her head, and reminded me of those apps where you put your own face into a hairstyle and your can never quite get the size right.

This is pretty standard everywhere I've worked (not in book publishing but in magazines - oh, the olden days! - and a few other industries). If you get paid leave you have to take some of it then, and if you don't, well... Merry Christmas! Some places only 'strongly encourage' it and others actually shut down so you can't work even if you want to. In magazines it was ridiculous because you still had to release editions to the same timetable so everyone basically killed themselves through the first half of December to get double the amount of work done and then recovered for two weeks. The concept of 'the bubble' as it relates to Charles and Liza made sense to me - I've heard that first flush of a romantic relationship described as a 'love bubble' before, when you're not really thinking with your head and reality doesn't come into it as much, and I could see that about them - but whatever that writer was talking about was gibberish. When I think further about that scene between Charles and Liza, I wonder if they shot something a lot more linear and it just didn't work, and they couldn't re-shoot, for whatever reason, so they chopped it up into what we got to try and save it. It was just weird and jumpy and such an abrupt open for the episode, and not, as far as I can remember, stylistically like anything we've seen them do before? I don't know.

Party of one here but as one of those people I felt bored. It did very little for me. And I think this is why: (emphasis mine) It felt... forced. All vingettes and close-ups and out-of-focus shots and swishy camera angles that screamed this is supposed to be sexy and bits of dialogue that didn't really relate to each other. It was as though the writers were like 'here is a montage of sexy times, put in some sexy faces and murmurings and then a close-up of Charles undoing his pants'. The carousel scene was shot the same way - and I get that it's (maybe?) supposed to be the 'bubble' - that dreamline first blush of love etc. etc. - but it just felt gimmicky and like they were covering for the lack of actual chemistry. All the scenes that weren't shot that way were very short and awkward. There was just nothing to them, and Charles' stunted. Line delivery. Makes it feel like he's. Reading. From. Cue cards. Contrast to Josh and Liza, who didn't need these tricks. There were plenty of scenes of them just walking and talking, and you could feel the chemistry, or her showing up at his place and then them disappearing into his room, and just him pulling the door shut to finish the scene felt like a moment. It didn't feel scripted, or directed. I feel like we've still never seen Charles and Liza have a fun, intimate date. Or even a conversation. Of course, YMMV. I know I'm an outlier on this one. Also the beard was HIDEOUS, and it is very rare that I prefer a man without a beard to one with, but that was a hard nope. IMO Diana knows, at least about the relationship. She's not a fool - she knows Marriage Vacation is about Charles. There's no way she watched that exchange between them at the restaurant and didn't right away think 'assistant, who is... OH.' And that last comment about wondering who Charles shaved the beard off for was extremely pointed. I'd guess she also knows about the age thing too, or at least suspects. Maggie and Lauren and Josh saved this episode.

I didn't think so but I have seen it read that way (as in it being a nod to the old 'man uses writing to express feelings he can't say' trope) more than once on Twitter - mostly in a gushy 'it was so romantic' tone. Hard to say if that was intentional on the part of the show or not.

For me the difference is that there was much less of a power imbalance between Liza and Josh. She wasn't his boss. She was lying about her age - which, agreed, not great, but if it wasn't about her age then it's no different to her lying about her job/hometown etc. which people do for whatever reasons they have - and when he found out he broke up with her, only later deciding he didn't care. YMMV on whether the age difference itself is creepy - imo it's not until it's coupled with the huge power imblance of Charles being her boss. I'm also slightly skeeved out by the fact that his declaration of love was a - relatively boring - card coupled with a cheque for what we can assume was a large sum of money. Like... nice reminder that you *are* her boss and have a whole lot of power over her financial wellbeing? But again, YMMV and I know I'm being a spoilsport.

This. I don't like Zane and I'm tired of Kelsey hooking up with every guy she works with, but do they even work for the same part of the company? Isn't he an Empirical editor and she heads up Millennial? Workplace romances happen, this one isn't remarkable or objectionable. Charles and Liza is a whole different level and one I've never been comfortable with. She's his subordinate and the first time he made a move on her he thought she was 20 years younger than him and did it anyway. And then when he found out she was nearly his age, his reaction was to interfere with her ability to do her job. The whole thing skeeves me out - I'm still pretty sure they're end-game but I'm not happy about it.

To me it did the opposite, because in both seasons it was one competitor who was getting a clear winner/hero edit vs. someone we'd seen on screen hardly at all. Devon got a little more screentime than Angela but in both cases you knew they weren't making F3 over Ben/Wendell. I was thrilled Wendell won and he would have been out if not for the fire-making challenge, but I still hate the idea of it. It also lowers the stakes of the F4 immunity challenge - if you feel confident in your firemaking you're actually better off losing that now. I do think it can produce more interesting results - and sometimes better ones - but for me these wins will always have a feint asterisk next to them.

I like Aubrey a lot, and I completely forgot she played a second time, so yeah, fizzled out for sure! I felt like in Joe's second season all the talk was 'we have to vote him out or he'll win and we don't want him to win' from pretty much every other player. It felt like nobody wanted him to win, but they assumed everybody else would vote for him if he got to F3. I think if he was female, even assuming a few immunity wins, and got to the end, he'd be seen as a goat with no game, but because he's not and he looks like an Ozzy/Malcolm type, he's seen as a threat. It'll be interesting to see how he goes - I predict early boot for the threat reason.