MissEwa

I don't get this. Yes, he had no shot against Sarah or Tony, but that's not a reason to offer yourself up as a sacrifice, it's a reason to flip. No matter what Natalie said on her return from EoE, I can't believe someone with an ego the size of Ben's wouldn't think he had a chance against Natalie or Michele, especially if he had voting out Sarah and breaking up the power couple on his resume. And had he done that and then beaten Tony at fire at F3, I think he potentially could have won. Which I would have HATED, but what he did instead was baffling to me.

A tepid end to a tepid season. I wasn't a big Michele fan after her first season but of the final three she was the only one I could stomach winning - I can't stand Tony and as much as I like Natalie I don't think an EoE returnee should win. I can't remember the exact wording, but early on in his introduction, Jeff said something about how they wanted to take twenty of the best players ever and just let them play Survivor and I rolled my eyes so hard I think I broke my skull. I would have LOVED to see them 'just play' but instead we got this mess with EoE and fire tokens and so many advantages that it just became ridiculous. When a player can't even remember all of the advantages they've personally been involved in playing, you have too many. Just stop. Look in the mirror and take one thing off. Or six. So much this. If Sarah had half the smarts she kept telling us she has, she would have taken that conversation elsewhere, knowing Tony was listening. She handed all of her power over without even a word. I was yelling at the television most of the way through. It was like she'd come to this groundbreaking realisation that nobody else had ever had - GENDER BIAS!?!? on SURVIVOR?!?! You THINK?!?! I don't know, I've held a grudge against her ever she managed to make herself the hero of the whole awful Varner mess with an equally no-shit-sherlock speech about how Trans People Are People Too. Maybe I should give her credit for managing to centre herself so effectively all the time, but it sits all kinds of wrong with me. Also I don't remember her getting anywhere near the kind of hate for her win that many female winners have had to deal with. She beat Brad Culpepper and Troyzan, FFS. She's no Natalie White, or even Michele. I think it's really hard to say gender bias doesn't happen in the game when we're up to six straight male winners. A streak that - co-incidentally?? - started right when they introduced fire-making to "give the stronger players a better chance to make it to the end". Yep. I was reminded again watching this that I HATE the fire-making challenge. I absolutely can't stand it. Even when it's meant players I like have made it into the F3 when they wouldn't have otherwise, even if I think of all the people who've gone out at 4 that I would have like to win that WOULD have won if they had had fire-making, I hate it. It makes the social game so much less of a factor, and takes so much power away from the F4 IC winner. It completely deflated the end of every season it's been used on for me. Most "twists" I come around on eventually, but this one, and EoE, I just... nope. I want to have hope that this enforced break before Season 41 gives them time to re-tool and re-think, and they'll come back with a better show. But let's be real, it seems doubtful.

Two people who wanted her gone, one who mostly didn't want to be the target, and a merge (and thus a bunch of other people who didn't vote for her) just around the corner.

I think playing the second idol was a smart play. As I think Denise said, Sandra's offer felt too easy - if I were her I would 100% be thinking that it was a ploy to get her to play an idol while they targeted her closest ally (whether by splitting votes or outright). Was it also for show? Definitely. Sandra approached her thinking she was desperate and probably resigned to going out, and playing the second idol was a beautiful way of demonstrating that she could take care of herself. The fact that Jeremy voted for her makes the second idol play look a little bit more foolish, but I think it served its purpose, and with the merge likely around the corner, I think she's seeing opportunities down the track. Although I am a Denise fan so maybe I'm just hopeful.

Kim also found a split idol, and gave half to Sophie, yes? Which all just goes to show, there are too many things. And Sandra's idol was only good for three tribal councils, but was it three in total, or three she went to? If it was three in total it's dead now. So many things, overcomplicating what could be an interesting season.

This is why I'm wondering if we'll get a reunion at all, and if we do, in what form. I feel like the traditional live reunion in front of a huge audience is out - too many variables, too much opportunity for a cast or audience member to say the wrong thing and turn it into a shitshow. I feel like it'll almost certainly not be live, and I wonder if they'll have an audience. I could see it going the way of those old school Top Chef reunions (maybe they still do them, I stopped watching years ago) where it's just Jeff and the cast having a little therapy session and talking it out. And that's before you even get too far into who's going to be there and who's not. Yes it's $10k but with the level of hate Dan, Missy and Elizabeth are getting, I wouldn't be surprised if one or all of them skipped it.

I'm torn on this. I would be furious if I found out this happened and it was edited out, but I am also just... deflated by how it's been handled. I don't know if it's hit too close to the bone but it's just made me sad and tired. I haven't watched this episode. I've had plenty of time and opportunity to, and obviously I still care enough to be reading these threads, but every time I think about putting it on I just feel this wave of exhaustion. I love Survivor. I have for years and years. This really bites.

Same. I was - somewhat willfully - giving them the benefit of the doubt, but it feels like they handled it that super-HR non-accusatory way where nobody really gets what's going on. I'll bet Dan's "warning" was a very passive 'there have been reports that this has happened and we don't think it should happen again, don't you agree?' style warning that let him walk away and keep pretending that he personally hadn't done anything wrong.

Yeah he was definitely more 'sorry you're all mad at me' or 'sorry that happened' than he was sorry for anything he actually did. But at least at some point he did seem to understand that he should be apologising, even if it was self-serving. And when that didn't get everyone off his back, he flipped to defensive finger-pointing, and has been there ever since.

The thing that got me was that he blames editing only when it comes to Feely Dan himself. Elizabeth and Missy he completely hangs out to dry, with no thought that maybe editing is a factor with their portrayals. In the episode thread someone said that Varner at least knew what he'd done was wrong and seemed sincerely sorry for it. At the time, maybe, but he's definitely walking it back now. Ugh.

I think most of what I keep going over in my head about this episode has been said, but I'm going to add myself to the chorus of 'it doesn't matter if it's a crime, if someone asks you to stop touching them you stop touching them'. It doesn't even matter WHY they ask. Maybe Kellee was actually a germaphobe like she claimed in the first episode. Maybe she has super-sensitive skin. Maybe she's had some trauma in her past that makes her dislike being touched the way Dan was going it. Maybe she's just oversensitive. It doesn't matter WHY. She is not obligated to let him touch her. She doesn't need a rational and widely-accepted-by-a-bunch-of-randoms-on-the-internet reason. If someone asks you to stop touching them, then you stop. It's actually that simple. And yes, it's Survivor - there are going to be times it's impossible. But she wasn't complaining about if he had to take her hand to pull her up a wall in a challenge, or whatever. These were all instances where he did not have to be touching her, but he was. Deliberately. (As an aside, I don't see any 'just' about someone brushing a hair from someone elses face. The thought of anyone I'm not super-close to touching my face makes me shudder. I would never do it to anyone else, not even a good friend, and I would be creeped out by someone doing it to me, even if they didn't mean anything by it. Clearly YMMV, but just the fact that mileage does, in fact, vary, is as good a reason as anything to just.... NOT touch other people if you don't know they're okay with it.) One thing that I've been thinking about is WHY - beyond my own personal issues - this episode felt so uniquely awful and upsetting. I've seen lots of people say it's the absolute worst thing they've seen on Survivor, and from an emotional standpoint, I agree. But if I'm being clear-headed about it, I feel like what Varner did to Zeke was maybe worse, as a single act of utter awfulness. But Varner got his comeuppance. His entire tribe turned on him - and let's be real, who knows how ALL the rest of them really felt about what happened, maybe a couple of them didn't really care, but all of them universally seemed to understand that it was a Bad Thing To Do, and should be punished - and he got booted from the game. He was the bad guy who did a bad thing, but he paid a price for it. There was a sense of justice being done. The good guys won, at least in a game sense. Here... the good guys lost. Kellee got booted. Janet has no allies and is likely out next. Jamal got booted. The bad guys are in control of the game and it's likely someone whose behaviour in all of this was at best questionable, will win. There's no happy ending. And in that, it's a bit too much like real life, because for all we talk about Me Too ruining careers and "cancelling" people, unless you actually ARE Harvey Weinstein, you're probably going to come out the other end fine, and that is... depressing as hell.

I think this says what I was trying to say better than I could. I am angry and upset with them, but yeah, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same if it were me. Full credit to Janet for having the strength to fight that instinct.

Same. My husband was watching when Janet found her idol and he thought it seemed too easy and while I usually find it so annoying when that happens in this case it did not bother me one bit. Maybe they gave Kellee a second one to ensure she'd use one at that tribal, so they could be rid of Dan without having to boot him themselves? Also fine. If that solves a problem without them having to get their hands too dirty, then that's fine. It's just too bad she didn't do it. I usually watch Survivor with my eight-year-old and I got the heads up from Twitter this week that maybe I shouldn't, which I'm grateful for. I think much of it would have gone over his head, and some other stuff is probably good to start discussions about consent and listening to people (which we do anyway) but I wouldn't know where to start with the Missy/Elizabeth stuff. I think they both behaved appallingly, but I do wonder what the truth is of how much they were bothered by Dan. Missy I think maybe actually was. I suspect she opened up to Kellee about it and I think that was genuine. I wonder if afterwards, when she found out that Kellee was targeting her, she assumed that Kellee had been playing her during that conversation, freaked out that she'd made herself so vulnerable, and so flipped it all around, even to herself., Elizabeth, on the other hand... again, I don't know. Some of the ways she talked about it - not just to Janet, but even joking last week - it's like she knew it wasn't great. I think there was a degree of self-protection happening. Both Missy and Elizabeth are high-level performers - they think of themselves as strong, bad-ass women. Being powerless doesn't sit well with that. It's like when Elizabeth said she that if she was bothered she would have told him to stop, as though that would have worked and fixed it all - it's uncomfortable and confronting to realise you don't have the power in a situation, and maybe it's easier to tell yourself that there's not a problem than to admit that you might not be able to control it. As a late Gen-x nearly cusp millenial, it's something I felt in the early days of MeToo. There were stories people were telling of behaviours that I'd experienced when I was younger, but at the time minimised as someone being 'touchy-feely' or not reading social cues or my own misinterpretations, and my instinct was to brush off those stories as 'really not that bad' rather than deal with the fact that they'd happened to me too, and I hadn't been able to stop them. So... I don't know. I don't even know if the above makes sense or I'm being too generous to Missy and Elizabeth. I'm furious with them, but I also agree with the poster above who reminded me that it's not them, it's the system. Dan, on the other hand... he deserves every bit of scorn he's getting and a little more.

I got an inkling Chelsea was going the second she started talking about how comfortable she was, although I have to admit I would have preferred Dean. I feel like whenever there's a showmance that needs breaking up it's automatically the woman that gets targeted and so I was quite happy early on when they were looking to buck that trend. Alas. TC was interesting though. Given they were trying for a blindside, there was too much talk about how the plan changed and that really should have made her nervous - and her reactions made it seem like it did, but I know they splice them in randomly so who knows? On the other hand, she's never been to IotI so I don't think anyone thought they had to worry about an idol. Yep. They definitely planted the seed there but it was so last-minute it seemed like an afterthought. I would have been surprised but not shocked if she'd gone. Flashbacks to Boston Rob in early seasons really emphasise how long this damn show has been running. He looked like an actual child in that All Stars clip.

This. Maybe she's being annoying and playing it up for sympathy but this is a game about relationships so... give her sympathy? Even if you're inwardly rolling your eyes while you do it, you do it and then when it comes time to organise the vote she's in your pocket, because clearly she just wanted someone to care and you did. As annoying as she is (maybe) she's being pretty clear in what she wants from her alliance mates, so it's weird that nobody's even bothering to give it to her. And same. Yep. But it could have been one of those pivotal conversations that would have made the vote really obvious, so they edited out to keep it suspenseful. Still bad editing IMO, but nothing they haven't done before. I had actually typed your last sentence almost verbatim in my last response, then I edited it out. I agree though - if (big if) this is what happened, it's very short-sighted. On the other hand, maybe she's assuming that the next IotI person will be from the other tribe, so it keeps the secret safe for a while longer, and it's likely there will be a switch in there, so it might be even longer. It wouldn't be the first time someone decided on a strategy to get through the next couple of episodes without thinking beyond that. Or, maybe Vince played it wrong. Huge spec, but what if she approached him after he got back from IotI to compare notes and work together, and he completely brushed her off and threatened to tell people she had an idol, and that's why she targeted him. Maybe she is willing to work with IotI people who will keep a secret, but Vince didn't? I don't know. It all comes back to us not knowing what went down between then when he got back. And maybe nothing did. Maybe they didn't speak and Elizabeth voted for him because she likes Tom and wants to keep the women's alliance. We have no actual proof that Elizabeth's vote had anything to do with IotI at all.

It's early days and I'm hopeless with names but I *think* Chelsea was the one who found the idol last episode? And she did something else too - maybe in the challenge? Same. I am not good with blood but when it was dribbling through her fingers... ick. She did walk away, but maybe... four feet? And then she's lying there with her head down and her arm out and - as much as they don't like us to remember this - is being filmed in close-up. And the way they all stood around throwing glances at the camera seemed to me like they knew - it was very much that vibe when someone's making a scene in public and everyone's deliberately not noticing. Very weird. I am annoyed we didn't get anything between Elizabeth and Vince when he came back. This has occurred to me, and I do wonder if they did talk and he handled it really badly - threatened to tell everyone she lied or blackmailed her for her vote or something. Maybe that's why she was so adamant that he should go. The weird little flashforwards we're getting at the beginning of the episode are awful and make the first act feel so disjointed. I keep wondering if it's my streaming playing up. Have we even had opening credits this season, or are we just done with them now? Overall... decent episode. I wanted Vince to go over Tom but I was kind of glad Karishma didn't go. I don't love her but for whatever reason it always kind of bums me out when someone's upset about being on the outs and disliked and it turns out they're not just being paranoid. That said, if your idol is only good for two tribals and you get ANY inkling of trouble, just play it. Honestly.

ITA. And not only is he 48, but he's a talent manager in LA (I wasn't sure I had the right guy in my first post), so he'd be very well aware of Me Too and Times Up. Quite frankly if he hasn't at some point in his life complained that he can't even hug a woman any more for fear of being Me-too-ed, I'll eat my hat. He should 10000% know better. I didn't realise how cranky I was about this until I'd hit send on that last post. Ugh.

After the shitshow that was EOE I was totally expecting to hate-watch this season, but I actually liked this episode a lot. The cast seems interesting, and I don't know if it is more diverse but it felt like there were less stereotypical buff guys and perky blonde girls. I haven't read any cast breakdowns so maybe they're there but just haven't got much airtime yet. I liked that a lot of women seemed to get confessionals early, and the whisperings of a women's alliance - it may not happen but it's nice to see them actually *consider* it, and now they have the numbers. I don't know if I actually like Elaine or I just think I do because the show is telling me to, but that vote was like an early litmus test for the season for me and I was rooting for her to stay because it's just great when the first vote-out isn't the woman people think can't do well in challenges. And yeah, way, way too early to be voting out jury threats. Rob and Sandra are cartoon characters at this point. I love Sandra as a player and as much as I want to hate Rob I always end up enjoying his arrogance, but they don't even seem real any more - it's like they are just their Survivor personas, amplified 110%. Still, I was surprisingly fine with everything but the ridiculous giant heads. Elizabeth was absolutely either told who they were supposed, or the talking head was recorded later, because there's no way she'd pick them. I didn't mind her though, she reminded me a bit of Natasha Lyonne in her younger days - and I'm torn on the lie. She definitely had to keep her lost vote quiet, or she becomes an easy first boot, but I'm not sure about the rest. I see reasons to keep it quiet but it could bite her in the ass later. YMMV, but I have zero sympathy for Dan. It's 2019 and he's a grown man. If he doesn't know not to put his hands on women - for whatever reason - without a clear indication that they're cool with it, then he's being willfully ignorant. It's easy to say Kellee should have just told him to stop but in that situation it's not always that easy, and ITA with the poster up there who said this early on she probably didn't want to be seen as difficult/put a target on her back. And besides, it shouldn't be on her to have to stop him. The onus is on him to learn some boundaries in the first place. Overall, great start. 1000% expecting to be disappointed next week.

The way this show treats publishing and money is just mind-boggling. Charles mortgaged his house so Mercury could pay an $800k advance for a book but... then what? Who was paying for the book to be edited, printed, marketed and distributed? I know it rolled into Millenial/Empirical so it didn't end up mattering but what was their actual business plan before that? And then Kelsey just wanted to start her own publishing house with absolutely no money? And she was... pitching for investors? I think? But then how would that be "her" publishing house, if all the money was someone else's? Or was she pitching for books, in which case of course everyone was going to say no. I know, I know, I shouldn't think too much about it but GAH! No mention of Claire and Gemma at all in this finale - so I'm guessing Claire did actually stay in NY because Josh franchised Inkburg, and it was actually all addressed with one line? So lazy. It's all gotten so lazy and repetitive. I wonder who's going to nearly leave Empirical next season - it's Diana's turn, I'm guessing.

I saw a tweet about this today and I'm so disappointed and so tired of this show. I was so excited about an all-winners season and this has sucked all the joy out of it. I'm not a hard-core 'we must go back to classic survivor without idols and advantages and twists' person. I think all those things work, in moderation. But EoE? Hard nope. Also*: At least five. He will find three at camp (one at his original camp, one when he is conveniently switched onto the other tribe, hidden in the exact same spot, and one post-merge) and be gifted two by EoE. He will still be voted out and the final EoE challenge will be some poker-related thing and he will win his way back in. Bleh (and I LIKE Rob). *not an actual spoiler, obvs.

This. I think it's a problem they didn't think of when they introduced firemaking (or... they did think of it, given the function of the whole fire-making thing, but they hope we didn't). Traditionally, idols were valid to F4 for a F2 season and F5 for a F3 season, because that means everyone still has to survive one vote without idols/advantages to get to the finale. When they introduced fire at F4, they got rid of that one 'level playing field' tribal. Given they're determined to keep fire-making, idols should stop at F6. Everyone has to survive the F5 vote by the power of their own game. Between the idols, fire-making, and this season EoE, the whole premise of the game (having to avoid being voted out) is getting so diluted it barely matters. Also this came up briefly in the S38 finale thread, but I can't help but feel like it's weird that the first six people voted out of EoE got two chances to get back in, the next eight got one chance, but then Victoria and Lauren got no second shot. It seems vaguely unfair that there's no advantage to making it further in the game, and in fact after a certain point you're actually disadvantaged by the existence of EoE, despite playing a better Survivor game. A fix for the first part of that would be weighting the returnee challenges - say there's an 'untie all these knots' component, and for every vote you survived in the game you have one less knot. Not insurmountable, but maybe enough to discourage a player like Joe looking at being voted out onto EoE early as a valid strategy. There's no fix for the second beyond taking EoE right up to F3, which would be awful, but I'd personally vote for nixing it at the merge. If they need to run it to F6, then definitely no idols handed out just for returning (you're already getting a second shot, you shouldn't get an advantage as well), and the post-EoE vote-outs get an extra jury vote, or to boot one EoE member from the jury - something to influence the game and make them a bit more dangerous. Ideally though we just never see EoE again, but if they have to...

I'd be happy with a Victoria win, and I would get why she won. They have shown juuuuust enough of her so it wouldn't come from nowhere. It makes more sense to me than Michele and about the same amount as Wendell (who I saw winning from about halfway through his season). Still not buying it until I actually see it though.

I would love this to be the case but I don't think we've had the story of how Rick loses. Russell was completely unlikeable. Coach was delusional and a bully. Rick is neither of those things. He's an underdog who made it back from EoE and is still there despite being targeted multiple times. And while I think Rick is annoying and not nearly in control as he thinks he is, he is definitely getting a positive edit. The only hope I have is a comparison to Malcolm, where he got a hugely positive edit only for his day one partner to win instead. Maybe not playing the idol for Julie after all will lead to his downfall and she'll win instead but I don't see it.

I don't see Victoria winning either but I don't think she's unlikeable, or even getting an "unlikeable" edit, a la Angelina last season. Early on she was getting a bit of a "bad at Survivor" edit, with the not knowing how to find idols and talking about voting Joe out while he was right there stuff, but since then I've found her edit neutral-positive-ish. There just isn't enough of it, which is a shame because she's the only person whose win would somewhat redeem the season for me. I could see Aubrey returning, but probably not winning. Same for Chris, maybe David at a stretch. I feel like it's almost certainly not Joe or Kelly because they would be getting much bigger edits if they were coming back.

I don't know if it's EoE or Survivor fatigue - or both - but I'm very much on team 'this season is terrible'. I was actually shocked at the end of this episode to realise we were at the finale and there were only five players left (in the core game, anyway). It feels like it's been going forever but at the same time it feels like nothing has happened because they're all still there. I don't hate Rick. I'm dubious about this edit of 'nobody but Rick is looking for idols' too - it's the same old narrative we always get but I thought it was pretty much confirmed by former players that everyone looks for idols all the time but they only show it if a) something interesting happens or b) they find an idol. Honestly it's not his fault he's getting all the screentime. He's doing all that ACTING at TC which drives me mad but I get he thinks is necessary for jury management, but the rest of it probably comes down to the fact that he knows how to give nice newsreadery soundbites, he's good at finding idols, and the editors think he's got a good story. Whoever wins, IMO the suckiness of this season is on the editors - if it's Rick, it's been excruciatingly obvious for weeks and there's no suspense, and if it's anyone else, they've completely failed to give that person a coherent edit. I think the only two winners I could really stand would be Victoria or Lauren, and Lauren is borderline. If Rick hadn't been voted out already I'd probably be fine with him winning, but he has, so.