Elizabeth: The True Believer

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, scartact said:

Anyway, Elizabeth is actually my favorite character and much more interesting than some static interpretations of her character as merely sociopathic or manipulative. There's a lot of ways that I actually find her character really transparent and easy to read in ways that sometimes is a little bit tougher with Philip. Elizabeth tends to be more concrete and the information we get about her is more concrete (Philip's history often feels like it's designed more abstractly and through strong emotional images).

I couldn't agree more. And especially early on it surprised me how people seemed to be really misled about this. Like people would casually mention things we knew about Philip that were not things we knew about Philip at all. Because we knew nothing about the details of his past. Elizabeth seemed much more explained--not that it made her a simple person by any means, but I thought they'd give a lot psychological and emotional logic to her. She never seemed just perverse to me--and definitely not cold. She actually seems a lot more emotionally connected than Philip does, to me.

With Philip a lot of things people seemed to assume we'd been told were things they'd filled in based on his demeanor. We didn't know anything about his past or his family. Perhaps more importantly, despite his friendlier demeanor he was the more isolated character. Elizabeth had several strong relationships that guided her life. Philip seemed far more guarded. He tends to mirror back whatever person he's with or be what he thinks he needs to be in that moment. He's very slippery, but is always assuring people that he's not. Elizabeth is always projecting strength because she thinks that's important, but not because she doesn't feel things.

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

Regardless of what actually happens in a given episode, some segment of discussion is always about what's "wrong" with Elizabeth and the ways she fails in traditional gender roles (mother, wife, etc). There are viewers that seem to truly hate her with such vitriol, and it's nearly always paired with willful misreading of what we see of her onscreen. It's the kind of hate I have only ever seen directed at female characters. 

I can't say exactly what things stem from misogyny, of course, but I was always disturbed by people who flat-out said that Clark/Martha was a better marriage than Philip/Elizabeth. And specifically that Martha was a better wife. Martha, who was intentionally kept in the dark about who her husband was and what he was doing, who was forgiving, but usually forgiving based on not having information. Not only did that seem almost like a parody of a 1950s sexist marriage, but I was surprised at people who actually thought Philip preferred it. Like people would sometimes say that he was able to talk about things with Martha he couldn't with Elizabeth and that again seemed like a misdirection because he really didn't do that. And while he obviously thought her loving nature was a precious thing, I don't think he particularly liked it directed at him since it just made him feel guilty, and rightfully so. I can't think of single scene where he seemed to enjoy time spent with Martha on any level, and while she was ready to forgive just about anything she learned about him, she didn't understand it the way Elizabeth did.

[qtpye]

It's funny that Elizabeth's coldness is seen as subverting gender roles and people hate her for it.  I sometimes feel her dogmatic loyalty to the cause is considered a feminine trait.

Let me explain.

I grew up going to Catholic school.  In a family it was common for the wife to be the religious one.  In fact many guys who were really not into the church still wanted to marry "a good wholesome Catholic girl".  Why was this...well the common thought was that women were more easily lead and less likely to have independent thought.  If a priest told a woman something, then she would obey it without question, no matter how stupid it was.

I to qualify this by saying, there are many good people in the church and many strong awesome Catholic women. 

However, I have seen women stay with abusive alcoholics, who would drink away all their paychecks, because a priest told them it would be a sin against the church to leave their husband.  In my mother's day if a woman went to a priest and complained her husband drank too much and beat her, the priest would answer that she must be doing something wrong in the home, for her husband to be so unhappy.

Sadly, when the Catholic church scandals became public, I was not surprised.  The main arbitrators of the home were women and many of them always were told to choose the church before their and their family's well being.

So, Elizabeth's devotion seems very old school patriarchy to me.  I see how she looks toward Gabriel for fatherly approval and it reminds me of how some ladies in my community thought that making the priest happy was the most important thing in the world.

[stagmania]

49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I can't say exactly what things stem from misogyny, of course, but I was always disturbed by people who flat-out said that Clark/Martha was a better marriage than Philip/Elizabeth. And specifically that Martha was a better wife. Martha, who was intentionally kept in the dark about who her husband was and what he was doing, who was forgiving, but usually forgiving based on not having information. Not only did that seem almost like a parody of a 1950s sexist marriage, but I was surprised at people who actually thought Philip preferred it. Like people would sometimes say that he was able to talk about things with Martha he couldn't with Elizabeth and that again seemed like a misdirection because he really didn't do that. And while he obviously thought her loving nature was a precious thing, I don't think he particularly liked it directed at him since it just made him feel guilty, and rightfully so. I can't think of single scene where he seemed to enjoy time spent with Martha on any level, and while she was ready to forgive just about anything she learned about him, she didn't understand it the way Elizabeth did.

Thank you for articulating this so well, because it is absolutely a big part of this dynamic some viewers have with Elizabeth. There was a strong preference for Martha (a far more traditional type of female character) and resentment of Elizabeth that necessitated completely distorting the story in front of us in order to justify it, and it really ratcheted up as Martha was leaving the show. There was a pervasive idea for awhile that Elizabeth is the cold, evil bitch who Phillip is stuck with, and Martha was his sweet, loving wife who he could really be himself around. As if he ever did any such thing.

@qtpye that's a really interesting way to look at Elizabeth's characterization, and I totally agree that she fits a certain type of old school woman really well. I just don't think it's a type we're used to seeing much in pop culture.

Edited March 27, 2017 by stagmania

[qtpye]

21 minutes ago, stagmania said:

@qtpye that's a really interesting way to look at Elizabeth's characterization, and I totally agree that she fits a certain type of old school woman really well. I just don't think it's a type we're used to seeing much in pop culture.

One of the things I hated most about these women was how judgmental they were of other women who did not share this viewpoint.  She is divorced...she can not take part in Mass.  Don't YOU go to church three times a week?

They really believed blindly following something without question made them special and gave them a VIP pass into heaven.

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, qtpye said:

So, Elizabeth's devotion seems very old school patriarchy to me.  I see how she looks toward Gabriel for fatherly approval and it reminds me of how some ladies in my community thought that making the priest happy was the most important thing in the world.

Wow, good point. And it's even more interesting when you think of the memory she had of her mother telling her her father was shot for cowardice. There's a lot of things that story would mean to Elizabeth (the main thing I thought at the time was her thinking that if she ever was weak her mother would stop loving her) but it's fascinating to think of her growing up seeing her father as this perfect hero and then transferring that adoration onto men who were more and more authoritarian. I mean, this is a woman who was raped by a male authority figure and doubled down on her loyalty to the cause. Which makes perfect sense to me given her understanding of life. What else could she have done or believed?

18 minutes ago, stagmania said:

There was a pervasive idea for awhile that Elizabeth is the cold, evil bitch who Phillip is stuck with, and Martha was his sweet, loving wife who he could really be himself around. As if he ever did any such thing.

Yes, honestly, never! I remember at the start of last season when Philip was really needing to tell somebody about that story with the bullies and a lot of people saying he talked to Martha about it and not Elizabeth. Which was completely not true. He told a censored version of the story at EST, which he talked about with Sandra. What he said to Martha was a completely vague allusion to it, saying that he'd just been thinking about "stupid stuff"from when he was a kid ( downplaying it even more than he had at EST) and wondering if that made him what he was now. He seemed more honest, open and at ease with Sandra Beeman than with Martha.

Then with Elizabeth he simply told her the story. People might disagree with her response (asking him how old he was and then saying "good" that he killed the bullies), but as Sandra predicted, it was Elizabeth to whom he needed to tell the story. Once he told her the story was finally somewhat exorcised. This is the person who understood it and would still be there with him after he told it.

It's interesting to think about Elizabeth's own secret about her father being a coward. I don't know whether she'd ever feel the need to share it with Philip or not. I remember after she had the memory and Philip asked her what she was thinking about she said "this blue dress my mother used to wear." Some people considered that a lie but I thought, you know, maybe to her that actually was what she was thinking about. She probably isn't quite sure exactly how she feels about this truth about her father. Not sure if her presenting him as a soldier who died with honor is protecting herself or him. I can imagine the latter, because I think that goes along with the side of Elizabeth she seems to try to hide or fight against but is part of her nature. It makes sense she'd be scared to love someone who might not be 100% loyal to the cause, but that doesn't mean she doesn't.

[qtpye]

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow, good point. And it's even more interesting when you think of the memory she had of her mother telling her her father was shot for cowardice. There's a lot of things that story would mean to Elizabeth (the main thing I thought at the time was her thinking that if she ever was weak her mother would stop loving her) but it's fascinating to think of her growing up seeing her father as this perfect hero and then transferring that adoration onto men who were more and more authoritarian. I mean, this is a woman who was raped by a male authority figure and doubled down on her loyalty to the cause. Which makes perfect sense to me given her understanding of life. What else could she have done or believed?

I hate to go there, but I could see some of the women having sons who were victimized by the priests and then slapping the sons "for lying".  Heck, I think there even was some sort of pod cast where a priest or Bishop blamed the boys for "being seductive".

I think later he apologized and the church just said he was old and confused...yeah right.

Anyway, I did not mean for my posts to be rants against the Catholic church.  It is just this type of blind devotion always rubs me the wrong way and it's not for sexist reasons.  In facts, sometimes I fear it goes into "women are weak minded and can be much more easily brain washed" cliché.

Edited March 28, 2017 by qtpye

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, qtpye said:

I hate to go there, but I could see some of the women having sons who were victimized by the priests and then slapping the sons "for lying".  Heck, I think there even was some sort of pod cast where a priest or Bishop blamed the boys for "being seductive".

I remember in the movie Spotlight there's that scene where one guy tells the story of being molested by the priest. The guy did eventually tell and the Monseigneur came over to the house to talk to the parents about it. The reporter asks how his mom reacted to the guy coming to his house--this wasn't the abusive priest but his boss who presumably had a hand in protecting him so this could happen. The guy said, "Are you kidding? My mom put out cookies."

But just fyi I didn't take your post as specifically about Catholicism either. It's just one example of the kind of authority in society where this happens. Religions always have lots of examples because you're supposed to give them so much respect and faith.

I think that's why it makes sense that Elizabeth had Gregory as her boyfriend early on. He was a safe person with whom to have a real romance because he agreed at the outset that the Cause was most important, plus she completely controlled when they interacted. She was vulnerable with him, but only in certain ways that led back to her recommitting to the Cause. Philip's a lot scarier--even though he, too, gave up his life to this same Cause.

[scartact]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

So, Elizabeth's devotion seems very old school patriarchy to me.  I see how she looks toward Gabriel for fatherly approval and it reminds me of how some ladies in my community thought that making the priest happy was the most important thing in the world.

That's a really interesting interpretation @qtpye that I've never considered before! I think my one curiosity though would be applying this analysis in terms of Elizabeth's upbringing in the USSR. At first I was a little reticent to see this point of comparison since Elizabeth and Philip are so anti-religion, but I can sort of imagine Elizabeth as the socialist equivalent.

On the note of religion, I think I should rewatch the last set of episodes from season 4, but I was always a little bit curious about Elizabeth's interactions with Pastor Groovyhair and their conversations around belief and how much she takes it in vs. how much she deflects what he says.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's interesting to think about Elizabeth's own secret about her father being a coward. I don't know whether she'd ever feel the need to share it with Philip or not. I remember after she had the memory and Philip asked her what she was thinking about she said "this blue dress my mother used to wear." Some people considered that a lie but I thought, you know, maybe to her that actually was what she was thinking about. She probably isn't quite sure exactly how she feels about this truth about her father. Not sure if her presenting him as a soldier who died with honor is protecting herself or him. I can imagine the latter, because I think that goes along with the side of Elizabeth she seems to try to hide or fight against but is part of her nature. It makes sense she'd be scared to love someone who might not be 100% loyal to the cause, but that doesn't mean she doesn't.

I've always tended to analyze Elizabeth within the context of motherhood not just because she's a woman, but because the show itself slightly fixates on it (from Elizabeth's mother to Elizabeth to Paige). It would definitely be interesting to look at her through her relationship father figures. Sometimes I forget that part of her backstory is that her father was killed for trying to desert the army. And even before we were introduced to Elizabeth's relationship to Gabriel as a fatherly figure, General Zhukov also played that role for her. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the first season in awhile, but upon slight reflection, it's a bit surprising her rape didn't shake her resolve as much as it could have. Then again, maybe in a weird way it strengthened it since her body is often weaponized and dehumanized to further KGB agenda.

[Umbelina]

I think he was shot for cowardice, which may have been desertion as well?

After all the talk about Misha, I started picturing Elizabeth's dad, terrified, cold, starving, shaking, and in the midst of shell shock/PTSD or all the other things humans have called it through wars.  Poor guy.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

After all the talk about Misha, I started picturing Elizabeth's dad, terrified, cold, starving, shaking, and in the midst of shell shock/PTSD or all the other things humans have called it through wars.  Poor guy.

Yeah, I've grown to feel that way too!

 

16 hours ago, scartact said:

And even before we were introduced to Elizabeth's relationship to Gabriel as a fatherly figure, General Zhukov also played that role for her. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the first season in awhile, but upon slight reflection, it's a bit surprising her rape didn't shake her resolve as much as it could have.

Yes, it's interesting that there's both him and Zhukov, plus she talks about her father.

Quote

There are viewers that seem to truly hate her with such vitriol, and it's nearly always paired with willful misreading of what we see of her onscreen.

Speaking of that, I was surprised when I just came across a reading of the hotel room scene that just had Elizabeth being a total robot for the KGB seducing Philip to get him back in line. I don't mean just analyzing how the manipulation was one thing going on in the scene--we had a discussion of that here. But in this reading it wasn't just an aspect of her, it was the whole thing.

And what surprised me is I just thought it seemed to touch on so many things Elizabeth isn't. For instance, we know that she had a lot of problems with the arranged marriage at first. She didn't like the idea of being assigned to another agent as a sex partner, and she was very strict about drawing those boundaries immediately. She always seemed to be in control of whether they had sex early on, and when she decided to have sex to have a child it was clear it wasn't about sexual desire on her part and would not be about pleasure. It doesn't seem like a coincidence that she finally opened up to Philip when he discovered Timoshev raped her and killed him for it.

So the idea that she would ever make it part of her job to just sex this guy into being on board is just...not anything she would do. That's very different than sex being something Elizabeth might use to communicate with Philip in multiple ways, including maybe wanting to manipulate or distract him when they have a disagreement about the work.

The other thing that seemed off was that Elizabeth would be in a relationship with some guy who she had to sex into loyalty. It seems more like Philip had to prove to her that he was reliable before she trusted him enough to love him.

It just seems like Elizabeth's worst nightmare, being assigned to sex up another agent whenever he seems too soft to stick with the cause. That is not her job, and she would not make it her job.

Edited March 28, 2017 by sistermagpie

[gwhh]

6 hours ago, scartact said:

That's a really interesting interpretation @qtpye that I've never considered before! I think my one curiosity though would be applying this analysis in terms of Elizabeth's upbringing in the USSR. At first I was a little reticent to see this point of comparison since Elizabeth and Philip are so anti-religion, but I can sort of imagine Elizabeth as the socialist equivalent.

On the note of religion, I think I should rewatch the last set of episodes from season 4, but I was always a little bit curious about Elizabeth's interactions with Pastor Groovyhair and their conversations around belief and how much she takes it in vs. how much she deflects what he says.

I've always tended to analyze Elizabeth within the context of motherhood not just because she's a woman, but because the show itself slightly fixates on it (from Elizabeth's mother to Elizabeth to Paige). It would definitely be interesting to look at her through her relationship father figures. Sometimes I forget that part of her backstory is that her father was killed for trying to desert the army. And even before we were introduced to Elizabeth's relationship to Gabriel as a fatherly figure, General Zhukov also played that role for her. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the first season in awhile, but upon slight reflection, it's a bit surprising her rape didn't shake her resolve as much as it could have. Then again, maybe in a weird way it strengthened it since her body is often weaponized and dehumanized to further KGB agenda.

I read someone that the KGB and the Soviet government operated on a simple principle.  The state own EVERYTHING including the people.  And if the state tells you to do something you do it OR ELSE.  Even your own thoughts and free actions are owned by the state.  So Elizabeth is a piece of property to to be used by state for the state for what ever they see fit to do with it.  And its not the place of the "item / person" to complain or even argue with the state.   Because you don't ask or care what a hammer thinks before you use it. 

 

I think he was shot for cowardice, which may have been desertion as well?

After all the talk about Misha, I started picturing Elizabeth's dad, terrified, cold, starving, shaking, and in the midst of shell shock/PTSD or all the other things humans have called it through wars.  Poor guy.

 

Out of a population of 110 million.  The soviet union had 26 million killed during WW 2! 

Edited March 28, 2017 by gwhh

[stagmania]

13 hours ago, scartact said:

I've always tended to analyze Elizabeth within the context of motherhood not just because she's a woman, but because the show itself slightly fixates on it (from Elizabeth's mother to Elizabeth to Paige). It would definitely be interesting to look at her through her relationship father figures. Sometimes I forget that part of her backstory is that her father was killed for trying to desert the army. And even before we were introduced to Elizabeth's relationship to Gabriel as a fatherly figure, General Zhukov also played that role for her. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the first season in awhile, but upon slight reflection, it's a bit surprising her rape didn't shake her resolve as much as it could have. Then again, maybe in a weird way it strengthened it since her body is often weaponized and dehumanized to further KGB agenda.

I've always thought the rape and Elizabth's reaction to it is really key to understanding who she is. She was raised to believe it was her duty to give herself wholly to the cause, including her body. For the most part, she seems able to compartmentalize the violence and sex she encounters as part of her job, certainly better than Phillip can. But she was traumatized by what Zhukov did and she carried the pain with her for years. Because she's still a person with feelings and boundaries and vulnerabilities, no matter how much some want to pretend she's a robot.

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So the idea that she would ever make it part of her job to just sex this guy into being on board is just...not anything she would do. That's very different than sex being something Elizabeth might use to communicate with Philip in multiple ways, including maybe wanting to manipulate or distract him when they have a disagreement about the work.

The other thing that seemed off was that Elizabeth would be in a relationship with some guy who she had to sex into loyalty. It seems more like Philip had to prove to her that he was reliable before she trusted him enough to love him.

It just seems like Elizabeth's worst nightmare, being assigned to sex up another agent whenever he seems too soft to stick with the cause. That is not her job, and she would not make it her job.

Yes, thank you. I really don't understand this reading of Elizabeth or her sex life with Phillip. We know she barely had sex with him for years! She only began to relax into intimacy in her marriage when she developed real feelings and trust for him. This is the kind of thing that comes back to a determination to erase whole parts of her character, which seems to stem from disgust at how she compartmentalizes her emotions for her job. 

[kokapetl]

Did Zhukov assault Elizabeth? He was the father figure who had the dog, he was her original longstanding senior handler, he was killed by the CIA for revenge reasons. Elizabeth and Claudia were very attached to him. Timochev the defector raped her, but he was not a father figure. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Umbelina]

No, Zhukov certainly didn't assault Elizabeth, the guy Philip killed early on did.

I still say Elizabeth pulled out the sex card to distract Philip after his comment about the USSR not being able to feed it's people with so much land available for farming.  She had no answer, she didn't want to discuss it, she knew Philip was wavering again, so she changed the subject, the way she's been trained to change the subject.

I think both Philip and Elizabeth were fully aware of that.  So, no subterfuge, a simple technique.  Most married couples or families for that matter have them, it doesn't need to be sexual.  When things get too close for comfort, changing the subject, or bringing in a favorite food or a better memory, or yes, a seduction to change the subject is something many of us do.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I still say Elizabeth pulled out the sex card to distract Philip after his comment about the USSR not being able to feed it's people with so much land available for farming.  She had no answer, she didn't want to discuss it, she knew Philip was wavering again, so she changed the subject, the way she's been trained to change the subject.

I think both Philip and Elizabeth were fully aware of that.  So, no subterfuge, a simple technique.  Most married couples or families for that matter have them, it doesn't need to be sexual.  When things get too close for comfort, changing the subject, or bringing in a favorite food or a better memory, or yes, a seduction to change the subject is something many of us do.

I think that's a reasonable and probably accurate description of what was going on there. But it's very different from this other interpretation that surprised me, which was more about Elizabeth seeing it as her job to have sex with Philip as if he was a source.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that's a reasonable and probably accurate description of what was going on there. But it's very different from this other interpretation that surprised me, which was more about Elizabeth seeing it as her job to have sex with Philip as if he was a source.

To me, they were the same thing.  Either I didn't express myself thoroughly, or my comment was misinterpreted. 

[Christina]

People can watch this and any other show and take away something different without it being an obvious misreading of what was on screen. Every week I read opinions that differ from mine, including from the show runners, telling me what I was supposed to take away from a scene, and many times I disagree. It doesn't matter if they wanted me to think "A" when the scene reads "B" to me. I don't think other opinions are wrong, just different from mine and that is part of what makes this show enjoyable; good writing doesn't limit viewpoints. Philip's relationships with Elizabeth and Martha, for example, have been hotly debated, and one reason people have suggested that his relationship with Martha was stronger was because they have shown him speaking to her in a vulnerable way, yet when he shared that he was attending EST with Elizabeth, her response was more along the lines of, "You can't be falling for that crap!" It wasn't my take, but I don't think it's wrong. If someone mistakenly thought that a conversation between Philip and Sandra happened with Martha, it's still not a misreading of what was on screen, it is because they interpreted a different scene between he and Martha that way, and weren't just subbing Martha for Sandra, they had just ran the scenes together. I remember those conversations becoming circular way back then. I'm also not a huge Martha fan. I thought they made her a sad, pathetic woman in effort to sell her falling for Clark. She had a good job at the FBI, wasn't a complete idiot, had been dating before and she was painfully obtuse when it came to Clarke.

Part of the reason I love the forums on PTV is the snark on ALL characters and reality show participants, regardless of gender. I rarely see misogyny on this site, and with parenting being a part of this show, of course Elizabeth's failures as a mother are pointed out. So are Philip's. There have been long discussions about how they sneak out in the middle of the night, leaving the kids alone, won't let them knock on the bedroom door, do missions together so that risk of the kids becoming orphans is larger, etc. They are crappy parents who are now training their daughter to lie better, and possibly lost their son somewhere since we haven't seen him in weeks.

In my opinion, no one has suggested that Elizabeth stay home, bake cookies, be a member of the PTA or act like the stereotype of a 1950s housewife. It doesn't seem, to me, that people are harder on her because of some inherent sexism because she doesn't act that way. She has been written as a cold-hearted killer with an unwavering loyalty to her home country no matter what they do or ask of her. Over the seasons, we have seen her grow emotionally, but she is still the bad guy. 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Christina said:

People can watch this and any other show and take away something different without it being an obvious misreading of what was on screen.

Yes, but not all opinions are equal. There's no one correct reading, but some are more out there than others.

 

12 hours ago, Christina said:

If someone mistakenly thought that a conversation between Philip and Sandra happened with Martha, it's still not a misreading of what was on screen, it is because they interpreted a different scene between he and Martha that way, and weren't just subbing Martha for Sandra, they had just ran the scenes together.

I don’t understand—how would that not be wrong? it's a mistake. If someone says “Philip said X to Martha” and someone else points out that no, these were the actual lines, then that’s wrong. Doesn’t mean the person’s whole interpretation of how Philip and Martha interact is wrong—that’s not so black and white. But the text is the text and it’s not all ambiguous.

Edited March 29, 2017 by sistermagpie

[qtpye]

To me their dynamic is obvious.  Phillip told Gabriel he fell madly in love with Elizabeth the first time he laid eyes on her and that has never changed.  The KGB probably thought they had the perfect couple.  A man madly in love with a woman who is madly in love with the cause.  They probably thought she could control him and keep him in line and they were right.  This might make people resent Elizabeth, because she is the power player in the relationship.

In the Martha situation, Phillip was the power player.  He could not bear to see an innocent, if too trusting woman go to jail or be murdered because of his actions.  He still sort of destroyed her life, but I never ever thought he cared for her in the same manner as Elizabeth. 

This does not mean that Elizabeth does not care for Phillip, but it does mean she is his weakness.  He loves her beyond anything else, even his children.  Phillip looked haggard and worried in the cowboy episode, but when he looked up at E, his eyes were shining with love and adoration (good acting) and it seemed like a giant burden had been lifted off his shoulders.  This woman is everything to him.  It does not matter if they are an upper middle class couple in the United States with all the perks or waiting in a five hour freezing cold line for moldy bread in the Soviet Union...she is all that he needs.

[qtpye]

I just wanted to give a shout out to what a good actress Keri is.  When she is Elizabeth she seem cold and withdrawn.  However, with her marks, whether male or female, she is warm and irresistible.  You totally understand why people trust her immediately.

[Umbelina]

I've been watching all the seasons again, and one thing just really struck me as odd.

Remember when Hans killed the student that Elizabeth let go after the whole sickening tire-on-fire death of the Apartheid guy?

Why was she so cool with Hans murdering him, after she fought so hard for the student's life against their comrade from Africa?  Hans was just "well I wanted to keep working with you so I killed the guy you think may have seen me, it was messy." 

It just struck me as an odd reaction.  Also, if she wanted the student dead because he'd seen Hans she would have just let that African guy who had trained in Moscow shoot him, but she stopped that.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

Maybe Elizabeth wanted Hans to kill Todd, similar to how Claudia almost managed to get Elizabeth to kill the guy who ordered Zhukov's death. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Why was she so cool with Hans murdering him, after she fought so hard for the student's life against their comrade from Africa?  Hans was just "well I wanted to keep working with you so I killed the guy you think may have seen me, it was messy." 

It just struck me as an odd reaction.  Also, if she wanted the student dead because he'd seen Hans she would have just let that African guy who had trained in Moscow shoot him, but she stopped that.

I read it as Elizabeth, being Elizabeth, can't help but understand a kid who can't bear the thought of being out of the fight because of a mistake and wanted to make it right. She might have done the same thing at his age so couldn't get herself to feel too self-righteous about it?

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

Why was she so cool with Hans murdering him, after she fought so hard for the student's life against their comrade from Africa?  Hans was just "well I wanted to keep working with you so I killed the guy you think may have seen me, it was messy." 

I suspect because it was a done-deed ... and there was nothing to be gained. As she tell Phillip (and herself) often enough, "you had no choice" ... even if you did, your choice was to kill him ... spilled milk .... to be talked about at some future point, maybe. 

I've been noticing how much Elizabeth "calls the shots" and expects to be the #1 control freak in the family  ... I'm on season 2 and Phillip bought the car and Paige is testing her wings and being very suspicious/nosy, and Henry is laying low -- having screwed up big time with neighbor's Nintendo-equivalent -- to avoid the wrath -- or faux-patient condescension -- of Paige and Elizabeth (being youngest is hard). 

Anyway, as far as I can see, Phillip "lets" Elizabeth be as "in charge" as she wants except when he overrules her ... (but I think he's very much the one who decides).

 

I found myself wondering if Elizabeth's "problem" with Claudia was Claudia's "maternal nature".  Elizabeth's mom raised her to be stoic and to consider displays of emotion a "weakness" ...  P&E have a "very high opinion" of themselves, and someone frumpy and middle aged interferes with their own personal superhero #1 secret agent fantasies. I was glad that the writers dropped the Elizabeth as ice-box mom, but I'm not sure where she went, however, I think the kids (neighbors and teachers) would have caught to Elizabeth's lack of "normal" maternal warmth .... maybe it was the death of their mirror-couple that broke Elizabeth's endurance-contest longer-view approach to life ... Paige and Henry will be off to college and their own lives all too suddenly .... and then who will she be when she not doing compulsory mom-duty. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm moving this here from the main episode thread per instruction.

I suppose that Pasha's parents don't think that a school transfer would help.  It's more than the bullies, and bullies are at all schools. Plus, he'd be leaving Tuan if he transferred. That's his only ally or so they think.

While E acknowledges that she may not have the best bedside manner, I don't find her that cold with her family.  I suppose it's a subjective thing. I think that E has shown a lot of patience and compassion with Paige.  If your daughter goes directly against what you told her and places the family in mortal danger, I can imagine that it wouldn't be pleasant, but, nothing really happened with Paige. She got coddled, given more attention and basically got everything she asked for. I think that considering that she is working on little sleep, as P & E do, she's quite considerate of Paige.  I do think they have not devoted much time to Henry, but, they used to. Remember when they played sports outside in the yard?  Watched tv together in the living room?  As the teens get older they seem to not be as content hanging out with mommy and daddy.  Plus, he's doing better than before, so, maybe, things are so bad with him. 

[sistermagpie]

Quote

It's scary how little the reveal of William's true nature and true (if grumbling) self-less devotion failed to make an impression on Elizabeth -- as it did on both Gabriel and Phillip who had both written William off as an bitter person with a "bad attitude" ... when he was, actually, a dedicated life-long "embed" who had both a brain and qualms ... and who -- when close to the breaking point -- was not "well-taken care of" by the Center. 

Yup, I actually would have been surprised to think Elizabeth would draw any connection between William and herself. Back in season 1 Philip was just as loyal as William--just as loyal as Elizabeth--and yet she not only didn't feel guilty about him being tortured when she wasn't but blamed him for the fact that the Centre had the nerve to consider her a suspect at all. It's the only time she's ever lashed out at the Centre is when they questioned *her* loyalty and she wound up blaming it on Philip. Even Philip didn't take it personally that the Centre was checking all the Illegals, including him. Elizabeth couldn't handle even logical suspicion against herself. I'm sure she assumes that she (and Paige, as an extension of herself) are seen as far superior to however they saw William because she's never been anything but loyal.

Quote

In season one, the "malpractice" involved in recruiting (and seducing) the more than willing (underaged) "next generation" apparently never (really) fazed Elizabeth either ...  She was concerned about the son of her friends ... but his actions were, as I recall "unfathomable" and personal. 

If anything, the lesson she seemed to draw was that it was important that she tell Paige the truth herself. To be fair, I do think the Centre going behind the Connors' back was the biggest reason Jared broke down so badly and Elizabeth did feel she was mistaken by not giving him his mother's letter, probably, but yeah, it's totally according to Elizabeth's pattern that she wouldn't look at that situation and see the Centre as not respecting her or treating her and her children like objects. They even became an excuse for her to try to make Paige an asset. She seems to see anybody Paige might have been without all this as almost worthless. (Which makes me wonder what her relationship with Henry could ever be like--will she just look at him as if she wished he was "someone else" as Philip felt she looked at him?)

Quote

The first seasons, for me memorably, were punctuated with Elizabeth assuring doubting or troubled Phillip that he had done what was necessary  --- there was no alternative ... when of course real life is never that simple and such reassurances are shallow.  It's part of my mistrust and essential dislike of Elizabeth ... for her, "there is no alternative" ... even when obviously there is and was ... the pragmatic choice to remove all doubt and pull the trigger. 

This is why it honestly seems to me that the ending has to have some kind of reckoning on this score for Elizabeth. Just because it seems like the whole thing with Philip over the last few seasons is that he, like Gabriel and Nina and others, are looking at their choices more honestly. Where as Elizabeth has never had to waver from the more simplistic, rather flattering narrative, that all her choices are heroic and all her choices are sacrifices for the greater good. It's not that it's more her fault, but she seems the most lacking in self-awareness while thinking she's got the most self-awareness.

Edited January 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

Still, it reminds me of police shootings ... there are extreme dis-incentives in expressing any doubt about the righteousness of your actions ... and,  it also does't "really matter" because for P&E and too many police officers, nobody else is doubting the righteousness of the act and, regardless, there are no  consequences, so "why bother?" ...  The police officer who feels "bad" or "funny" is not likely to find many people willing to do more than offer reassurance, and they need that job and that paycheck.  Lots of disincentives. 

I agree that Elizabeth is portrayed as the perfect operative, limitlessly dedicated and able to bounce back ... from events that might stun someone else into needing a break or breather  (real doubts, real emotional damage). My gut feeling is that Elizabeth's lifetime of repressed emotional reactions is NOT going to come down on her like a tsunami ... starting with childhood and then the rape and .... balanced tipped by some present day catastrophe.  Meh, I don't think they could write that, nor would it serve some grand finale dramatic peak.  

It's one of my questions -- how much pain are they going to inflict Elizabeth this last season?  Kerri Russell is still beautiful and strong and I think there may be an automatic rejection of "punishing" Elizabeth too much ... I'd guess she will be humbled, but not broken ... Phillip may not be as "lucky"

Edited January 11, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

It's one of my questions -- how much pain are they going to inflict Elizabeth this last season?  Kerri Russell is still beautiful and strong and I think there may be an automatic rejection of "punishing" Elizabeth too much ... I'd guess she will be humbled, but not broken ... Phillip may not be as "lucky"

I feel the same way--it seems like they're incredibly protective of Elizabeth. She really never gets portrayed as, for instance, a source of danger in the family, the one pushing Paige into a life that at best will probably be miserable, the one who's rejected every way out. Elizabeth has had 3 proteges during the course of the show (Gregory, Lucia and Hans) and all of them are now dead either by her hand or with her blessing, and they've pretty much all been portrayed as something that was sad for her rather than them. 

But at the same time, that's why it seems like there should be *something* new for Elizabeth, since she's managed to totally avoid anything like this for so long. They've said that she's also evolving like Philip, just not as quickly, and there are these little hints that things are getting through--the mail robot lady, Young-Hee. But if Philip wound up feeling responsible for his family's destruction I think he'd feel terrible, but he wouldn't be surprised. Where as to me it honestly seems like Elizabeth has never allowed herself to consider any other possible outcome than she herself dying a heroic death and thus redeeming herself and making up for any bad thing she might have ever done with any of them while taking for granted Philip will be there. I think she's even rehearsed the idea more than once--when she thought she was going to be the one to meet with the Colonel, when she got shot, and when she thought she had Glanders. 

Philip, I think it's significant, has managed to avoid any major physical crises at all. He's always just been there, whether she wanted him or not.

Edited January 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

yes, it was her cold dispatch of the proteges (seemingly without a backward look) but I've also thought she was a chilly parent who often seemed (to me) to be going through the motions and saying the right things, cooking the right recipes, but more as a matter (also) of doing her job well and being that unassailable "good wife" and "attentive parent" ... and her reward was time-out to attend to her more important laundry room matters.  I'll take it on faith that she was more able to be present when they were younger and the spy-stuff was curtailed, but those kids (as we first met them) seemed accustomed to "mom and dad behind closed doors are not to be disturbed" -- when in fact P&E were out of the house entirely.   Leaving your kids unattended (while never "advisable" at any age in our overprotective society) can usually be done without mishap, the problem is when it's done on the sly and someone gets the stomach flu or trips on the stairs and needs help. 

I wasn't surprised that Paige was suspicious about the laundry room but more surprised that it wasn't a family joke about it being Elizabeth's "room of one's own" or secret spa ... Similarly all of Phillip's nights away from home "for work" ... with Elizabeth shouldering the parental burdens.  Begs the question if Paige's desire to please Elizabeth by becoming her "partner" is an attempt to get attention and a meaningful connection now... after years of Paige being the blandly independent "perfect child" ... (I did like it when it looked as if Henry had gone coldly sociopathic in breaking to other people's homes to play video games). 

[sistermagpie]

On 1/11/2018 at 4:54 PM, SusanSunflower said:

yes, it was her cold dispatch of the proteges (seemingly without a backward look) but I've also thought she was a chilly parent who often seemed (to me) to be going through the motions and saying the right things, cooking the right recipes, but more as a matter (also) of doing her job well and being that unassailable "good wife" and "attentive parent" ... and her reward was time-out to attend to her more important laundry room matters.

She never came across as cold to me as a parent--it felt to me more that she was just unsure about herself as a parent in ways she wasn't as an agent. She seemed to have a lot of trouble knowing how to deal with the kids while desperately wanting to connect with Paige especially, because she couldn't act like her own mother. I guess a real downside to that was that once she got the signal to recruit Paige she parented through that. Like on one hand she was freed because she could be herself, but that also sort of meant she could ask Paige for the emotional support she herself wanted and no longer have to try to accept and support a girl who was different from herself.

On 1/11/2018 at 4:54 PM, SusanSunflower said:

I'll take it on faith that she was more able to be present when they were younger and the spy-stuff was curtailed, but those kids (as we first met them) seemed accustomed to "mom and dad behind closed doors are not to be disturbed" -- when in fact P&E were out of the house entirely. 

I didn't actually get the impression that the kids were accustomed to that so much at the start. despite the rule about not going into the bedroom when the door was closed. I do think the secret affected the kids on some level--once Paige got old enough to look at them closely she noticed all sorts of things that had been there all along, but I don't think they grew up feeling like their parents weren't present or anything. I think if that was the case Paige would have brought it up when she confronted them. I think it was the secret more than the distraction, if that makes sense. YMMV.

On 1/11/2018 at 4:54 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Begs the question if Paige's desire to please Elizabeth by becoming her "partner" is an attempt to get attention and a meaningful connection now... after years of Paige being the blandly independent "perfect child" ... (I did like it when it looked as if Henry had gone coldly sociopathic in breaking to other people's homes to play video games). 

I do think it's hard to avoid the idea that Paige is looking for attention and meaningful connection--but I feel like that's less about Elizabeth being cold or absent or in the laundry room and more about Paige and Elizabeth both feeling how hard it was for them to connect when Elizabeth was dealing with her as an American kid. Paige has been demanding attention from the start--but then, she's also been getting it from the start. There's lots of scenes even from the first season where Paige gets special attention from Elizabeth. 

With Henry, it's funny, often when people think he's behaving in a bad way I think he's being not so bad and when people think he's being super great I think he's doing anything that great. For example, to me the video game break in doesn't seem sociopathic at all. It seemed like something a normal kid would do. He really wanted to play the game, saw it sitting there with nobody using it, figured it wouldn't hurt it if he played it, then started to enjoy his secret life in the empty house. It was only when he got caught when he saw the situation from another pov. But Henry didn't get follow up scenes like Paige would have, like where he and Philip talked about what he did etc. They must have existed, but the storyline was ultimately more about Henry reflecting how his parents (specifically Philip) felt rather than him making a connection. Which maybe they just mean to always be sad as Philip recreates the lost connection he had with his own father. Like these three men would understand each other more than anyone else, only they never know it until its too late, if at all.

Edited January 13, 2018 by sistermagpie

[kokapetl]

Elizabeth didn’t really have a choice with Lucia and Hans, they got themselves into sticky situations. Gregory chose to go out guns blazing because he didn’t want to live in the USSR, or in an American prison.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth didn’t really have a choice with Lucia and Hans, they got themselves into sticky situations. Gregory chose to go out guns blazing because he didn’t want to live in the USSR, or in an American prison.

That's definitely the way she sees it, I agree. But she's now putting Paige into the business where she, too, could get herself into a sticky situation. Presumably if Paige was in Gregory's position Elizabeth would act a lot more like Philip did with Martha instead of talking about how sources are expendable. (And she wouldn't be so accepting of Paige preferring to die in the US than live in the USSR--Gregory, remember, didn't have the option of living in a US prison.)

Edited January 12, 2018 by sistermagpie

[kokapetl]

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's definitely the way she sees it, I agree. But she's now putting Paige into the business where she, too, could get herself into a sticky situation. Presumably if Paige was in Gregory's post Elizabeth would act a lot more like Philip did with Martha instead of talking about how sources are expendable. (And she wouldn't be so accepting of Paige preferring to die in the US than live in the USSR--Gregory, remember, didn't have the option of living in a US prison.)

Paige’s second generation program was supposed to be Soviet indoctrination and the cultivation of contacts and ingratiation with the political elite of tomorrow’s America. Nothing really dangerous, just a whole lot of squealing to her mother/handler. 

Claudia was pretty insistent that Gregory be “recalled” to the USSR. It was his choice to not go. 

Elizabeth would be extra concerned if the person at stake is her child. Everyone would.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Paige’s second generation program was supposed to be Soviet indoctrination and the cultivation of contacts and ingratiation with the political elite of tomorrow’s America. Nothing really dangerous, just a whole lot of squealing to her mother/handler. 

 

Paige is supposed to become like Martha (only with higher security clearance and on purpose) and Martha also got into a sticky situation. Paige will be committing serious crimes--that's very dangerous, even if the risk is more being arrested rather than being shot dead. But we've also seen other Americans in that position and the KGB doesn't hesitate to kill them if that seems the best way to protect themselves. Martha and Gregory both had the opportunity to leave the country instead, and Paige would certainly be given that chance too, but only if possible. Being a KGB source is not like teenage Paige telling her mom about something Matthew said. 

21 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth would be extra concerned if the person at stake is her child. Everyone would.

Sure, but that's what raises the question of whether or not she's thought that through. It seems like she's assuming Paige will be happy doing this forever and nothing too bad could ever happen despite the trail of broken people she's already left behind her. 

[SusanSunflower]

I'm more concerned about the Elizabeth's repeated assumption/statement that "there was no alternative" and not looking back.  Half of the KGB assets who have died did not die at the hands of the "enemy" but because of fault/errors/accidents/bad luck .... and there have been a lot of deaths ... and "close calls" (remember how doom Martha appeared?) ... even Gaadst's death was a KGB fuckup ... and a number of deaths for the preservation of the mission were the result of bad planning or bad information (like the mail robot technician and the scientist in the wheat lab and other) and/or bad luck (for them that they crossed paths with P&E)... 

My impression of Elizabeth is that she's quick to say "no alternative" or "shit happens" or "oops, accident" or "it couldn't be helped" ... endless variations, rather than admit error .... and so it is likely to be when/if Paige hits a "bad patch" or wall or simply decides she's had enough -- even if she's just bored to death doing surveillance (and learning the tricks of the trade).   

I've said it before, but Paige's options are being constricted by her mother's ambitions and her desire to please her mother .... the "deeply embedded asset" plan most likely will mean that Paige should be attending college and pursuing a useful career path which will also involve classes wrt history and humanities (where she also would be exposed to not only campus activism but also kids with infinitely more freedom to question and find their own path).  

I doubt they'll go there ... and in part because I doubt Paige/Holly and Elizabeth/Kerri could carry that story line ... particularly, bright girl Paige taking Psych 101 or some PolySci/World Affairs class and bringing what she has learned home to the dinner table.... 

Edited January 12, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

On 1/12/2018 at 6:43 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Half of the KGB assets who have died did not die at the hands of the "enemy" but because of fault/errors/accidents/bad luck .... and there have been a lot of deaths ...

It's amazing when you think back over the 5 seasons that took place over 3 years. In that time Elizabeth's lost almost everyone who seemed to be steady coworkers. Off the top of my head I remember: Gregory, Fred, Zhukov, the guy Elizabeth shot in the head when he was losing it, Emmett, Leanne, William, Robert, Lucia, Hans, Jared, Kate,..

Add to that Anneliese, Martha, Charles Deluth the alcoholic, Philip... You'd think it would hard at this point for her not to think of any of those people when training Paige.

[SusanSunflower]

as well, what Paige's personal life is going to become, using Phillip and Elizabeth's "arranged marriage" as a template.  Both Elizabeth and Phillip did have (Phillip before and Elizabeth after) spontaneous "love matches" which lingered.  Paige is very young in the romance department, Matthew having been declared off-limits but who is going to be "good enough" or "safe enough" for mama bear's approval ... and how dangerous (and likely) a secret relationship (even platonic) seems. 

The catastrophe of Jared was written off (iirc) as a rogue operation by his over-zealous handler who was either not willing to tell him no and/or give up on recruiting him.  (She continued to see him in foster care and he/she seemed to have plans for the future.) She died before I was clear what "really" was going on since Jared seemed to be an unreliable witness (being love-sick and passionate about the cause), but not in the throes of a psychotic break or first schizoid episode.  And, to bring it back to Elizabeth, and most parents, they see what they want to see and disregard the rest. 

Jared and all those deaths might stir in some a bit of humility and "what was it worth it?" soul-searching rumblings, on top of the bio-weapon lie. 

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

The catastrophe of Jared was written off (iirc) as a rogue operation by his over-zealous handler who was either not willing to tell him no and/or give up on recruiting him.  (She continued to see him in foster care and he/she seemed to have plans for the future.)

I don't actually think it was ever suggested to be a rogue operation. Kate was doing exactly what she was supposed to be doing. It was Elizabeth who had no reason to ever see Jared in foster care. I don't know whether the Centre really trusted him to be a good agent after he'd, ya know, MURDERED two Illegals who were his parents, but there was never any suggestion from anybody that Kate was especially responsible. It was all the Centre's doing. I guess it's even possible that the Centre (maybe even Kate herself) didn't know who killed the family until Jared confessed to Philip and Elizabeth. But from what was said on the show the only person who ever told Jared no was his parents--and that was against the wishes of the Centre.

So Elizabeth may just see herself as solving all the problems by recruiting Paige herself. She just last season told Tuan that he needed a partner to do this work, but maybe she just sees herself as filling that role for Paige. Or she may actually just not see Paige as being in the same boat since Paige is not going into the same job as Elizabeth. She'll get to be herself, just hiding a part of it. Elizabeth's never actually shown any concern about Paige missing out on that sort of thing. But then, maybe she feels that the only way to really have a relationship is via shared commitment to the cause.

Edited January 14, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

My impression was that Kate was continuing to recruit Jared knowing that his parents (Leanne and Emmett Connors) objected (and that Claudia was "in the dark" or claimed to be).  I don't remember if the question of whether the Connors could have/would have continued working as "illegals" and/or if the the Centre realized that they might be gaining a "second generation" and losing two seasoned professionals.  If the Center was "recruiting" Jared without consulting Leannea and Emmett (particularly since there were romantic/sexual carrots involved) that ability to claim "I had no idea" does not **magically** make them less morally compromised given the outcome.  See also Claudia's claim of knowing nothing of Kate's doings.  It didn't occur to Kate that Jared was responsible until ... until it did (and yet it was a rage-filled, carefully premeditated and planned family assasination. ) Again, if the Center didn't know that Emmett and Leanne strongly objected, they become more negligent, less competent, not less.  (which is why I think the Center, now Claudia, should be more interested in the character and composition of young Paige than has been demonstrated) 

ETA:  I don't remember and I'm not going to immediately re-watch, but were the Connors anxious about what the Center would think of their objecting to Jared's recruitment?  One of the things that P&E do not share is that Phillip really understands that he's on Claudia's shit list and in the event of "problems" forgiveness and appreciation are unlikely ... while Elizabeth still sees the Center as her life-line and rescuer of last resort and even champion. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

My impression was that Kate was continuing to recruit Jared knowing that his parents (Leanne and Emmett Connors) objected (and that Claudia was "in the dark" or claimed to be).  I don't remember if the question of whether the Connors could have/would have continued working as "illegals" and/or if the the Centre realized that they might be gaining a "second generation" and losing two seasoned professionals. 

I think it was explicitly explained to us that the Centre sent Kate to recruit Jared *after* his parents objected to the whole idea. Kate would never have met Jared if the Centre hadn't directed her to secretly meet with him. Claudia, when she was finally let in on it (at the end of S2), explained to P&E that Jared was the first try at what they now wanted with Paige. The Centre told Leanne and Emmett to recruit Jared. They said no emphatically. The Centre went behind their backs and sent in Kate. That's why Philip told Arkady not to do that with Paige. The assassination wasn't premeditated, Jared just snapped when his father learned about his involvement and was still against it and Jared by then knew where his father kept his gun. The Centre basically created a time bomb that his parents had no idea was ticking. It just happened to go off in that hotel room.

So yes, it's totally canon that the Centre is 100% responsible and more negligent and incompetent than the version where Kate was doing this on her own. When they wound up losing the whole family the Centre decided that their mistake was in not *ordering* Leanne and Emmett to recruit Jared themselves. That's how they're handling any questions of personality etc. They still don't much care about the kids' personalities. Claudia basically admitted that they're just going to try with all of them and hope they find one where it sticks--that one seems to be Paige.

If Henry is 16 now and as bright as he is you'd think the Centre would be ordering him to be brought in by now. That would be interesting since Elizabeth would not have any of the advantages in recruiting Henry that she did with Paige. With Paige she saw how she was just like Elizabeth herself. Paige had already started down that path with her church group and worship of Pastor Tim. Henry, otoh, has always seemed to be a total cipher to her in some of the same ways Philip is, and in his own ways. Not that she couldn't start learning through study, but it would bring up a lot of different issues.

[SusanSunflower]

Yuck, in any event.  I wasn't sure where Kate versus Claudia were on the organizational chart and/or who the Conner's had been reporting too.  It was a long time ago but the fact Claudia said she didn't know about Kate's mission (which I only half believed), made Kate "rogue" in my book. ... She seemed awfully young and reckless since for many reasons, teenaged Jared could be anticipated to develop transference (or "love") for his handler (particularly if the relationship was extra-special grownup and super-secret-- think of regular teens who get seduced by teacher who seem to "really understand them") .  I was confused and dismayed by Kate's apparent intention to salvage Jared after learning what he'd done.  

Jared worked out cleverly how to conceal his involvement in the shooting... that smacked of premeditation, but honestly I don't remember if Jared suddenly grabbed his dad's gun in anger or, again, had thought through shoot Dad, Mom and sister. 

[kokapetl]

On 14/01/2018 at 10:48 AM, sistermagpie said:

It's amazing when you think back over the 5 seasons that took place over 3 years. In that time Elizabeth's lost almost everyone who seemed to be steady coworkers. Off the top of my head I remember: Gregory, Fred, Zhukov, the guy Elizabeth shot in the head when he was losing it, Emmett, Leanne, William, Robert, Lucia, Hans, Jared, Kate,..

Add to that Anneliese, Martha, Charles Deluth the alcoholic, Philip... You'd think it would hard at this point for her not to think of any of those people when training Paige.

You forgot Lisa. She hit the bottle, so she got hit by a bottle. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Kokapetl

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Jared worked out cleverly how to conceal his involvement in the shooting... that smacked of premeditation, but honestly I don't remember if Jared suddenly grabbed his dad's gun in anger or, again, had thought through shoot Dad, Mom and sister. 

Iirc, he said he shot his dad and mom because they were standing in the way of his mission in that moment (they'd just learned that Jared was working with Kate) and when Philip asked why he shot his sister he said yeah, that was maybe wrong. I thought that was another big red flat that of course he wasn't being accurate. He didn't really kill his family because of "the mission" he was lashing out because of the pain and hurt he felt at how he'd been lied to and manipulated by him. I always figured he shot his sister because in his mind the whole family was fake and he was just saving her pain. (Though that's speculation, of course.)

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

You forgot Lisa. She hit the bottle, so she got hit by a bottle. 

LOL! Yes--I wasn't sure if I should include her since she wasn't a willing participant, but she definitely fits the pattern!

[kokapetl]

 But, as far as we know, Charles Duluth is still delivering urbane commentary.

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Iirc, he said he shot his dad and mom because they were standing in the way of his mission in that moment (they'd just learned that Jared was working with Kate) and when Philip asked why he shot his sister he said yeah, that was maybe wrong. I thought that was another big red flat that of course he wasn't being accurate. He didn't really kill his family because of "the mission" he was lashing out because of the pain and hurt he felt at how he'd been lied to and manipulated by him. I always figured he shot his sister because in his mind the whole family was fake and he was just saving her pain. (Though that's speculation, of course.)

LOL! Yes--I wasn't sure if I should include her since she wasn't a willing participant, but she definitely fits the pattern!

According to my recollection and Internet recaps, Jared’s parents were approached by the Centre to start the 2nd generation phase, they said no, the Centre then sent Kate to seduce Jared, his parents found out and reacted badly, and he “resolved” the conflict by killing his family. He was in contact with Kate after the murders, so he seemed to be okay with the KGB, the people who directed his parents to lie.

By the end of the season, Pastor Tim was arrested for chaining himself to a gate or something, and Paige was enthralled by him. Elizabeth thought it was an ideal time for Paige to learn about their clandestine struggle against the capitalist pigs. 2nd generation spies were intended to end up influential federal employees with passable backgrounds. At the time, Jared murdering his family shouldn’t have suggested that Kate was training him to do that. Of course that doesn't apply anymore, now that Paige will literally be driving Elizabeth to her murders.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Umbelina]

I agree that Kate wasn't rogue, she was following orders from Center.  Either Claudia was lying about knowing (because that's what spies do, lie) or Center by-passed her because she wasn't gung-ho about the second generation plan. 

I think either is equally possible, but the second?  Further shows the chaos at Center, to bypass the handler and leave her in the dark?  That's a wow.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree that Kate wasn't rogue, she was following orders from Center.  Either Claudia was lying about knowing (because that's what spies do, lie) or Center by-passed her because she wasn't gung-ho about the second generation plan. 

I believe her when she says she didn't know just because she's the one who had Philip and Elizabeth searching for the Connors' killer--which was at least semi-rogue, it seems, right? She even confessed to Elizabeth that she herself had confessed to some guy she was in a relationship with who she was so that guy might be the leak. Maybe the Centre thought it was better to leave her in the dark so that she wouldn't let anything slip to Emmett and Leanne--or maybe somebody just thought she didn't need to know. But it seems that once Claudia did know, like Elizabeth she decided it was perfectly fine whatever the Centre did and they felt bad about it and mistakes were made but so what? Now, about Paige...

[Umbelina]

I just took the "about Paige" talk to the spoilers discussion.  ;)

[scrb]

Showrunners gave an interview to Slate Gist podcast (3/23/18).

They noted that viewers looked at Elizabeth as an ideologue which they don't agree with.  They said she grew up in tough circumstances and have some rigid beliefs, including absolutely believing in what's she's doing.

They noted that Philip started out similarly but has had enough self-awareness to question some of those beliefs, pounded into him by the Soviet system.

Um, that's pretty much the definition of an ideologue, guys.  You created a hard-core ideologue who's shown little signs up to the last season of being able to adjust her beliefs to a different reality than the one which was inculcated into her from a young age.

Now maybe that will change finally.  They did hint that Philip may be just a little ahead of Elizabeth when it comes to questioning ideology.

But what would cause Elizabeth to change now after all the events of the series?

[crgirl412]

30 minutes ago, scrb said:

Showrunners gave an interview to Slate Gist podcast (3/23/18).

They noted that viewers looked at Elizabeth as an ideologue which they don't agree with.  They said she grew up in tough circumstances and have some rigid beliefs, including absolutely believing in what's she's doing.

They noted that Philip started out similarly but has had enough self-awareness to question some of those beliefs, pounded into him by the Soviet system.

Um, that's pretty much the definition of an ideologue, guys.  You created a hard-core ideologue who's shown little signs up to the last season of being able to adjust her beliefs to a different reality than the one which was inculcated into her from a young age.

Now maybe that will change finally.  They did hint that Philip may be just a little ahead of Elizabeth when it comes to questioning ideology.

But what would cause Elizabeth to change now after all the events of the series?

YES!  I read this and thought, "hello????" 

Philip is way more than a little ahead of her!!!  He talked about defecting back in S1E1 (I think it was then) and keeps talking about it while she's telling them that he likes it here too much so of course they become suspicious of him. 

[Umbelina]

http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/gist/2018/03/joel_fields_and_joe_weisberg_the_showrunners_behind_fx_s_the_americans_on.html

Here's the link.

The showrunners always seem to have a skewed vision of both Elizabeth and Paige, or they often fail to convey what they think they are showing/telling to what the audience is actually seeing/hearing.  It's always seemed so odd to me listening to what they think of the two women, compared to what I do, or many reviewers and message board posts talk about.

Skip to about 6:50 if you don't want to listen to current politics first.