S03.E12: Sacrifice

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, Trillian said:

It was so unnecessary. Tuello could’ve said “you’re now in Canada and you’re under arrest you son of a bitch” and the Canadians stepped forward and made the arrest. Certainly, A Few Good Men didn’t suffer for doing it that way.  I guess it’s heresy to compare the screen-writing brilliance of Aaron Sorkin to this hot mess. I’ll go cut off a finger now and sit in the corner. 

Aaron Sorkin is not exactly great at writing women characters, exhibits smugness, and his writing sometimes does not reflect realty (such as what makes a funny sketch comedy show), so the comparison is more apt than you might think.

[Lady Calypso]

On 8/12/2019 at 3:11 AM, Callaphera said:

Can someone explain to me why Luke and Moira had face-to-face meetings with the Waterfords? 

So that the Waterfords could have a plot this episode? Since anyone living in Canada is a tertiary character, at best, I assume it was only for Serena and Fred's benefit, since those two are basically co-leads with June. 

I fell behind on this season....pretty much from episode 2 onward so I've caught up in the last few days. There's a reason why I don't think I could watch this show week to week, and why I basically fast forward through the episodes (since 30% of it is just close-ups of June's face).

I mean, sure, June's decision to let Eleanor die peacefully (and, I presume, on her own terms) was something she felt was the right choice, but it's just another body count to June's list. I'm guessing it's this whole "sacrifice the few to save the many" that June is stuck in. I get that June was probably thinking about the questions that would be asked and how Eleanor would likely spill their whole plan to the doctors if they took her there. 

But, I dunno, she just stood there and watched Eleanor die. She didn't at least try to save her. Instead of taking her to a hospital, she didn't try an alternative method. And I think that's been my biggest issue with June while watching this season over the last few days: it's like June has lost her humanity, or most of it. I don't see her as a hero, personally. An antihero, maybe, but she keeps getting people killed and she seems to have been desensitized to it. It's harder to root for that kind of character, especially when it's unclear whether we ARE supposed to be rooting for June and her methods or we're supposed to be critiquing her. 

Plus, did June ever think about how Commander Lawrence will be less willing to help now that his wife is dead? Does she not think that he won't turn on her if given the chance, especially if he finds out that she stood by and let his wife die? I don't think June has a plan and that's not a good thing, with how many kids she's trying to get over the border. June is on her way to getting some of those children harmed or killed, all because she's trying to rush a plan that is already falling apart. 

I agree with those who have pointed out that Serena should technically have zero rights to Nichole. Nichole was never the Waterford's daughter. She's not biologically related to them and June never signed over her rights to them (as far as I know). By all accounts, this "contract" that they have is verbal, at best. Serena's lucky to even get to see Nichole but if June does get out, Serena will never truly get custody of her.

And I find Serena more tolerable to watch than Fred or June, at this point. I just find it laughable that she even gets to see Nichole, let alone be treated like her mother. But hey, maybe Serena will get to have sex with Truello and get pregnant herself next season. Then she can have all the children that she wants. I'd rather that than see her and June escape from Gilead and raise Nichole together. 

But what I would absolutely love, by the way, is if Truello was playing Serena like Serena played Fred. Lure her into a false sense of security and get answers of his own before throwing her ass in the hole next to Fred's. Serena deserves to be in prison for the rest of her life, at best. 

Fred and Luke's conversation? Meh.

[CouchPotatoNoLife]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I get that June was probably thinking about the questions that would be asked and how Eleanor would likely spill their whole plan to the doctors if they took her there. 

But, I dunno, she just stood there and watched Eleanor die. She didn't at least try to save her. Instead of taking her to a hospital, she didn't try an alternative method. And I think that's been my biggest issue with June while watching this season over the last few days: it's like June has lost her humanity, or most of it. I don't see her as a hero, personally. An antihero, maybe, but she keeps getting people killed and she seems to have been desensitized to it. It's harder to root for that kind of character, especially when it's unclear whether we ARE supposed to be rooting for June and her methods or we're supposed to be critiquing her. 

Plus, did June ever think about how Commander Lawrence will be less willing to help now that his wife is dead? Does she not think that he won't turn on her if given the chance, especially if he finds out that she stood by and let his wife die? I don't think June has a plan and that's not a good thing, with how many kids she's trying to get over the border. June is on her way to getting some of those children harmed or killed, all because she's trying to rush a plan that is already falling apart. 

I agree with those who have pointed out that Serena should technically have zero rights to Nichole. Nichole was never the Waterford's daughter. She's not biologically related to them and June never signed over her rights to them (as far as I know). By all accounts, this "contract" that they have is verbal, at best. Serena's lucky to even get to see Nichole but if June does get out, Serena will never truly get custody of her.

And I find Serena more tolerable to watch than Fred or June, at this point. I just find it laughable that she even gets to see Nichole, let alone be treated like her mother. But hey, maybe Serena will get to have sex with Truello and get pregnant herself next season. Then she can have all the children that she wants. I'd rather that than see her and June escape from Gilead and raise Nichole together. 

But what I would absolutely love, by the way, is if Truello was playing Serena like Serena played Fred. Lure her into a false sense of security and get answers of his own before throwing her ass in the hole next to Fred's. Serena deserves to be in prison for the rest of her life, at best. 

Fred and Luke's conversation? Meh.

On the issue of Lawrence's wife, I can understand letting her die.

1. She almost spilled the secrets to the 2 wives. She almost told the High Commander's wife that they could take their kids to Canada. 

2. She was going to go outside to try to get more kids to take to Canada.

Its harsh, but she was a liability at this point. Obviously they have run out of the medication she needs. June probably assumed Lawrence would insist on getting his wife to doctors to try to save her. I get the impression he only wants to leave Gilead for her benefit. He would take her to doctors. If his wife is taken to doctors, she might accidently let it be known they were trying to take kids to Canada.

I agree with you that now the reason Lawrence wanted to leave is gone, but i think I make a similar choice in that position.

I would hate it if the show tried to redeem serena. But I fear it is happening. Serena advocated for this world and only turned against it when she was cut out of power. To me she is a very selfish character. I am glad Moira called her out on who she is.

[CouchPotatoNoLife]

20 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Why doesn’t everybody leave? The border may be quite porous as many long borders are, but people still have to get to it. The Waterfords seemed to have travelled a long way just to get to the meeting point and it didn’t look like a densely populated area. I can’t see an Econofamily or Martha having the resources to get within walking distance of a border.

I mean with how bad Gilead is I have to assume every family with a daughter would try to leave Gilead. Look at real life. Look at the refugee crisis in europe, look at the US southern border. People are willing to walk tremendous distances to escape danger.

The US has about 10 times the population of Canada. I had assumed that Gilead had north korean style borders and thus that was what explained Canada not being overwhelmed with refugees. But the way the American agent could just drive in and out of Gilead made the previous struggles to cross the border seem silly.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 8/13/2019 at 6:18 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I mean, sure, June's decision to let Eleanor die peacefully (and, I presume, on her own terms) was something she felt was the right choice

Okay, so, to briefly preface ... I realize as I write this that the season finale has already aired and everything is explained (or not). But since I was on mini-vacay when E12 aired (coincidentally, in Canada), I chose to wait to watch it until both of the last two eps were available ... because I was exhausted last night, I watched this ep but am holding off on the finale until tonight. So apologies if anything/everything I say is redundant or irrelevant. 

I did NOT get the feeling that June heartless just let Eleanor die. I think she really was very fond (weak word) of Eleanor. Her description of her as "kind" was accurate and heartfelt. 

When she saw her, I got the vibe that her gut reaction was ABSOLUTELY to try to revive her. But as she tried and failed, and saw the residue of the drugs on the bedside table (if I saw that correctly), I think she realized that worst case scenario she was almost dead with no hope of revival, and best case scenario she'd be seriously brain damaged ... or, YMMV with good reason if you were to flip-flop those worst case/best case options.

Then you take into account (as many here have) that even if she revived and was verbal in the hospital or anywhere else, she was already a HUGE liability to spilling the beans on this cause (one that Eleanor herself clearly cared about). 

So if June were to think (wildly, rapidly, having to make a quick call) what were the possible outcomes, likely outcomes, that could hurt the fewest people, what she did would be hard to argue with. IMHO anyway. 

As always, I am PISSED that we never got a really good Martha episode with Rita the lead. Maybe next season (anyone know the date S4 debut airs?). 

I cannot wait to watch the finale tonight, even though it means I'll have to wait probably a year or more to start back up (though I've already pre-ordered "The Testaments" to arrive the week before my daughter's wedding, and I plan to save it for the 6-hour flight out there). 

My big question to myself is ...

Spoiler

(and I'll try to make this somewhat vague for spoiler sake): What happens to Fred and/or Serena and when? I can't even be sure if a "book spoiler" will be upheld in the TV storyline, but if so I confess I'm hoping that a key factoid from the epilogue is mirrored in the season finale. I'd consider that a happy season ending. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by PamelaMaeSnap
Because S12 is not the same as E12

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Okay, so, to briefly preface ... I realize as I write this that the season finale has already aired and everything is explained (or not). But since I was on mini-vacay when E12 aired (coincidentally, in Canada), I chose to wait to watch it until both of the last two eps were available ... because I was exhausted last night, I watched this ep but am holding off on the finale until tonight. So apologies if anything/everything I say is redundant or irrelevant. 

I did NOT get the feeling that June heartless just let Eleanor die. I think she really was very fond (weak word) of Eleanor. Her description of her as "kind" was accurate and heartfelt. 

When she saw her, I got the vibe that her gut reaction was ABSOLUTELY to try to revive her. But as she tried and failed, and saw the residue of the drugs on the bedside table (if I saw that correctly), I think she realized that worst case scenario she was almost dead with no hope of revival, and best case scenario she'd be seriously brain damaged ... or, YMMV with good reason if you were to flip-flop those worst case/best case options.

Then you take into account (as many here have) that even if she revived and was verbal in the hospital or anywhere else, she was already a HUGE liability to spilling the beans on this cause (one that Eleanor herself clearly cared about). 

So if June were to think (wildly, rapidly, having to make a quick call) what were the possible outcomes, likely outcomes, that could hurt the fewest people, what she did would be hard to argue with. IMHO anyway. 

As always, I am PISSED that we never got a really good Martha episode with Rita the lead. Maybe next season (anyone know the date S4 debut airs?). 

I cannot wait to watch the finale tonight, even though it means I'll have to wait probably a year or more to start back up (though I've already pre-ordered "The Testaments" to arrive the week before my daughter's wedding, and I plan to save it for the 6-hour flight out there). 

My big question to myself is ...

  Hide contents

(and I'll try to make this somewhat vague for spoiler sake): What happens to Fred and/or Serena and when? I can't even be sure if a "book spoiler" will be upheld in the TV storyline, but if so I confess I'm hoping that a key factoid from the epilogue is mirrored in the season finale. I'd consider that a happy season ending. 

Why can't you watch the finale until next year?  Or maybe I misunderstood you?

I will say key factoid, so far, is not in the finale.  😉

If you want to know more, let me/us know!

[Ariam]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Why can't you watch the finale until next year? 

She said she was going to watch the finale "tonight" and then couldn't watch more for a year :) 

16 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I cannot wait to watch the finale tonight, even though it means I'll have to wait probably a year or more to start back up

  Reveal spoiler

(and I'll try to make this somewhat vague for spoiler sake): What happens to Fred and/or Serena and when? I can't even be sure if a "book spoiler" will be upheld in the TV storyline, but if so I confess I'm hoping that a key factoid from the epilogue is mirrored in the season finale. I'd consider that a happy season ending. 

😉

[PamelaMaeSnap]

4 hours ago, Ariam said:

She said she was going to watch the finale "tonight" and then couldn't watch more for a year 🙂

😉

Evidence of how exhausted I was, that I couldn't even explain clearly why I couldn't watch both Eps 12-13 together! Thank you for understanding (literally and figuratively)

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Evidence of how exhausted I was, that I couldn't even explain clearly why I couldn't watch both Eps 12-13 together! Thank you for understanding (literally and figuratively)

My mistake...it was late.  😉

[maddie965]

On 8/7/2019 at 2:02 AM, AnswersWanted said:

So everyone made sure to tell June just how AMAZING and BOSS she is within the first 10 minutes so we didn’t miss quota. 

Rita got to fondle some potatoes and June’s finger, it’s such a good thing they aren’t wasting the actress or character on frivolous things...

Secret government agent man can go die in a fire for how he treated Moira.

I already wasn’t impressed with him, but again the show has to make a character act like a total shitty asshole for unnecessary drama, and of course it’s over Serena. 

She should have been allowed to claw her goddamn eyes out and then take Holly back home. 

At least someone was finally allowed to call Serena out a little bit for once and didn’t act like she’s some helpless little lady who was manipulated and taken advantage of. 

Seriously, they actually held up a deal with that wench to get access to Holly? And she got time alone without Moira or Luke there?

She got to hold her rape slave’s baby...?!

Fucking disgusting. 

Do you know what’s also confusing for a helpless baby, Ms. Social Worker, letting said baby be held by their mother’s rapist. 

Who the fuck would even sign off on that shit? Serena should have ZERO sway about anything, she’s a captive war criminal, not their honored guest. 

Lawrence seriously let June manhandle his wife and didn’t even intervene once? The fuck? So just how whipped does June have everybody now? 

And she let her die, just straight up let the woman die? I...okay, no.

Just. No. 

I can’t comment on June anymore, it’s all expletives now in regards to her. 

Eleanor was one of the very few left in Gilead I even cared about, ffs.

Whatever, show, at least it wasn’t Janine, at least not yet...

Exactly what 4 Seasons Hotel is Canada holding Fred and Serena in? I mean there are some Ritz Carlton’s with less amenities. 

Thanks for making June a murderer, show. She murdered Eleanor. I hate her so much now. She's not even a person anymore. Just a heartless thing that walks and bosses people around.

Sorry I'm late with my comment. Watching the finale now.

Edited August 19, 2019 by maddie965

[lucindabelle]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:24 AM, mamadrama said:

Yeah, I hear you on the field trip thing. Last one I supervised we had 11 parent volunteers and by lunchtime two had wandered off and were found in the control room of the planetarium, one'd had an emotional breakdown in the gift shop when she didn't have enough money to get "space ice cream", two had vomited on themselves, and one had to stop and pee so many times that we all put our heads together and seriously thought of just investing in a large slurpee cup for the rest of the drive home. 

This totally read to me that the volunteers  reacted this way and I was laughing myself silly, cuz dang those kids must be trouble if they make adults vomit...

[scowl]

On 8/7/2019 at 4:25 AM, Brn2bwild said:

I kept waiting for Luke to respond: "You mean the lives of all those Congressmen you murdered?"

 

On 8/7/2019 at 5:24 PM, Joana said:

Also, if I ever get arrested for anything, I want to have a prison cell like Fred's. 

- "So, what did you do about the fertility crisis har har?" 

- "Uhm, I made a child, unlike you"

How was  that not Luke's response??!

I was hoping to see another scene of Luke back at the bar and muttering into his drink, "Well, I had a baby, asshole. Yeah, that's what I shoulda told him. I had a baby. That woulda shut 'im up."