S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

[paramitch]

I was pretty happy with this season, although I was dissatisfied with this finale, mostly because of the fact that no self-respecting police person (much less Keith Mars's daughter) would've left the murderer's bag in that car for 5 minutes, much less for long enough for it to kill Logan. 

As far as Logan's death, I wish they'd simply broken them up. I thought it was clear from the season that Logan had far exceeded Veronica in dealing with his trauma in a healthy way, and he clearly wanted a grownup, healthy relationship. She resisted this at every turn, and I understood why, although it frequently made me frustrated with her this season. I love Veronica, but this season, as always, I frequently found her unlikeable.

And I don't like where this leaves us. I really don't want to see a 'new' show where the only continuity is Veronica, because what always mattered to me was Veronica fighting the good fight in Neptune, standing up for those who had been beaten down -- alongside her Dad and friends and Logan, Piz, or Duncan. Seeing her in a solo "mystery of the week" format does not appeal to me at all, especially after I watched the entirety of iZombie and regretfully realized that RT and his team aren't actually very good mystery writers. (I liked seasons 1 and 2, but those worked more as character studies for me, versus as real mysteries, although they were okay.)

On 7/22/2019 at 6:15 AM, Glory said:

I loved the new weird Logan/Veronica dynamic that was going on. They were in a steady relationship, but the first few episodes and their examination of whether Veronica actually only liked Logan when he was an “obligatory psychotic jackass” were REALLY GOOD. 

I thought that the show was setting up a split – maybe Veronica would realize that she and Logan did not have a healthy dynamic because she was only really attracted to him when he was beating the shit out of people or ridiculously jealous or any one of those things… it seemed really well done and I could have lived with a split on those terms. 

This! I loved everything you said here. Exactly.

On 7/22/2019 at 9:18 AM, joanne3482 said:

Their friendship has always been so very interesting. In many ways Weevil is the male Veronica, a marshmallow. I loved the sister calling him out as having a crush on the little blond PI. 

One of the things I was hugely invested in this season was some kind of repair of the rift between Veronica and Weevil, and while I cried when he did show up in the nick of time, I still wish we'd gotten one more scene between them. (And yeah, I've always kind of shipped them too.)

On 9/1/2019 at 6:42 AM, Affogato said:

In any sensible world the only reason to push for therapy with his long-term therapist is a power play on his part (or he’s a moron) (and the therapist is unethical). It is a move that seems like he is concerned for her but which really isn’t. I mean it is clear if he coos over one more infant, Wallace’s or otherwise, she will hit him. So buy a cheaper ring and pay for therapy with a therapist neither of them has history with.  Part of the issue is his inability to think that she might need  a lot of attention and a bit of sacrifice on his part. She is strong and needs noone, in his opinion. He deserves all he can get out of life  

I really disagree with this take on Logan's POV, and absolutely do not think he's playing Veronica at all in some kind of power play when he asks her about therapy. It is not unusual at all for a family member or spouse to be invited into a therapy session, and in this case, what would usually happen is (if she agrees to come), Logan's therapist would set some parameters for them on how the session would go beforehand and what would be allowable for discussion (and what would not, if Logan chooses to keep some aspects of his solo sessions private, for instance). Then Logan's therapist would talk to them both, spend that time primarily listening, and would then suggest options for them to continue with couples counseling, typically with a new therapist.

There are certainly some therapists who would not talk to both of them if counseling one, but it's not uncommon, and simply depends on the therapist.

On 9/2/2019 at 9:06 AM, marshmallows said:

Not once did Logan give Veronica an ultimatum. He basically dropped the marriage thing after she freaked and ran out. She was the one who kept bringing it up and using it as some sort of weird excuse to be angry with him.

The only thing Logan brought up a few times was therapy, bc well Veronica deeply needed it whether her and Logan stayed together or not.

I 100% agree with this. Logan asking Veronica to come to therapy is a sign of his own healthy approach to mental health, and his willingness to work on their relationship if Veronica wishes to do so. It wasn't controlling in any way.

On 9/2/2019 at 9:15 AM, marshmallows said:

Veronica, a doormat? Yeah, I think not. She walked all over everyone this season, especially Logan. 

Agreed. Veronica is a steamroller, and that's exactly why she and Piz never had a chance. Piz is a sweet, handsome, caring guy, but he was never going to be able to stand equal with Veronica long-term. I think this is one of the reasons she and Logan kept reconnecting -- he's just as smart and strong as she is, he can match her quip for quip, and they both understood each other's trauma. Unfortunately, as Season 4 showed, that doesn't always mean forever -- I really wish they'd broken up in the finale, instead of the wedding and shocking death.

On 9/2/2019 at 3:02 PM, Affogato said:

Proposing marriage is relationship changing. By springing it on her and then dropping it—refusing to talk about it or talk about his feelings—or acknowledging her feelings—well it is pretty passive aggressive. 

I don't really understand how Logan can win here, since by this logic simply proposing marriage to Veronica is manipulative in some way. I didn't see this at all. Logan and Veronica have been together for a LONG time at that point. He saw marriage as the next logical step (as I'm sure many would). He asked her to marry him. She refused, and then spent most of the rest of the season subtly punishing him for it. VERONICA was the one who wouldn't talk about it. Veronica was also the one who refused even the idea of therapy (and it would have been easy for her to say, "Okay, let's get some couples counseling. But not with your therapist." And as presented, I think Logan would have said this was fine. He wasn't insisting on HIS therapist, he was asking her to work in a healthy way on their relationship issues.

On 9/4/2019 at 1:25 PM, Affogato said:

Veronica is telling this story  she gives Logan’s behavior a positive spin and her own is judged harshly   Jane is the place where you see what is happening, so I wish it had been done better. 

Logan was clearly deliberately not communicating with her  perhaps he doesn’t trust himself but stonewalling her is not great behavior. Maybe he is scared to talk outside of therapy  he is being a pod person, not open and himself and that is apparently because he is afraid of what he will say or do. Bit veronica isn’t horrible for trying to talk about it even if she gets too angry.  Also the sex apparently wasn’t the best and you know that had come up before the blow out. 

I think she was afraid they would break up if they talked honestly.  

I strongly disagree that "Veronica Mars" is a story in which everything we see is filtered through Veronica as an unreliable narrator. This utterly befuddles me -- we've seen countless scenes from an omnipotent POV (season 4 included). We aren't just seeing Veronica's take -- we're seeing things as they actually happen.

I absolutely don't think the rougher sex scene with Veronica and Logan after the argument meant that (1) the sex was bad, or that (2) their sex life is usually dissatisfying, but the reverse -- that it was unusual in being unsatisfying for Logan. It's been pretty clearly painted to me that Veronica and Logan have always had a pretty sizzling sex life. But in this case, Veronica actively encouraging his anger for rougher sex really upset Logan, and I thought it was understandable -- she enjoyed it, but it was edging toward a BDSM scenario and while Veronica was perfectly fine with the morning after, Logan didn't like what it brought out in him (or, I think, how it was accomplished -- she was essentially playing with his emotions and pushing him to lose control).

I'm not bashing V -- I love her -- but this season I think we deliberately saw that she hasn't come through life unscathed, and she's dealing with a lot of trauma and damage, and not always in a healthy way.

On 9/13/2019 at 10:45 PM, redpencil said:

I still don't think any of what we saw on screen is supposed to be taken as "fantasy" or Veronica imagining, even the scenes with Veronica in them. What we saw is what happened, in all cases.

This is my take, 100%. In fact, I'd argue that Veronica's voiceovers give a momentary glimpse into her thoughts precisely because they illuminate something more about what she's thinking and add her POV as further depth to the omniscient POV onscreen.

On 10/1/2019 at 5:03 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

But the real thing I notice again is that Dick really crossed the line. He (attempted to) drugged Madison specifically because she wouldn’t put out and he was trying to make her, and he expressed this intention to Casey and what’s-his-name who gave him the drugs (so that guy is also guilty of something, but I don’t recall seeing him again). Besides that, he also carried a completely unconscious Veronica into the bedroom humming wedding bells for Cassidy, and told Cassidy to rape her. So, Dick didn’t technically rape anyone himself, but not for lack of trying, and he also went out of his way to set up Veronica being raped by his brother. 

That all would have been fine if they’d committed to Dick being a bad guy. Could have gotten some character growth for Logan in resisting that realization but eventually coming around to cutting Dick out of his life. Veronica could have organized some sort of comeuppance for him, legally or otherwise. 

Did Dick ever even give a marginal apology for what he did? Did anyone confront him - does he even know what happened? At one point Logan was ready to disown him just for being rude to Veronica but it doesn’t seem like they ever discussed his culpability in her rape - with intent, unlike Madison. 

But no, they just had to keep him around as a charming buffoon (because they liked the actor? 

I am so, so happy to see someone say this. It has always enraged me that Dick -- an absolutely loathsome, vile person -- was somehow badly morphed into being the show's class clown, just because people liked the actor (who is talented, and by all accounts a delightful person, but still).

I've always loathed it, I've never bought it, and every time Veronica was polite or kind to Dick I wanted to scream at the screen because there is no fricking way Veronica would actually treat him that way in real life, as if he's merely an eye-rolling character in a sitcom. It is one of the biggest issues I have with the show, and always will.

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, paramitch said:

 

I strongly disagree that "Veronica Mars" is a story in which everything we see is filtered through Veronica as an unreliable narrator. This utterly befuddles me -- we've seen countless scenes from an omnipotent POV (season 4 included). We aren't just seeing Veronica's take -- we're seeing things as they actually happen.

I absolutely don't think the rougher sex scene with Veronica and Logan after the argument meant that (1) the sex was bad, or that (2) their sex life is usually dissatisfying, but the reverse -- that it was unusual in being unsatisfying for Logan. It's been pretty clearly painted to me that Veronica and Logan have always had a pretty sizzling sex life. But in this case, Veronica actively encouraging his anger for rougher sex really upset Logan, and I thought it was understandable -- she enjoyed it, but it was edging toward a BDSM scenario and while Veronica was perfectly fine with the morning after, Logan didn't like what it brought out in him (or, I think, how it was accomplished -- she was essentially playing with his emotions and pushing him to lose control).

I'm not bashing V -- I love her -- but this season I think we deliberately saw that she hasn't come through life unscathed, and she's dealing with a lot of trauma and damage, and not always in a healthy way.

This is my take, 100%. In fact, I'd argue that Veronica's voiceovers give a momentary glimpse into her thoughts precisely because they illuminate something more about what she's thinking and add her POV as further depth to the omniscient POV onscreen.

 

 

Veronica mars is written entirely by someone talking about the past as if it is the present, ok don’t believe me .  It is a thing.  It is tricky and clearly the narrative demands some fudging for clarity. I still think it is her knitting the story together. It is not all her story but she holds the pen. Look Vinny in this story? She got that part of her story talking to vinny. That is why Vinny looks so good. 
 

Early n season 4 we are told specifically that if Veronica knew then what she knows now she wouldn’t have taken the case. Later we learn she is telling the story to Jane a year later. Logan is dead throughout the narrative. We have V as POV.  As she tells it she has had time to start to make him too good for this world in her head, she does the same with Lily, we saw her do it. It also means he ends up a bit stiff. This bookmarks the Neptune story. 
 

look we do see she hates needing to get revenge for money, she is lonely and frustrated, and she does not want to settle down in Neptune and be the primary caretaker—it would be alone mostly— for their kids . isn’t it clear Logan wants Wallace and Shae’s life? And with Veronica as the Wallace part. We know Veronica doesn’t want to make playdates and network for preschools and find and maintain friendships while Logan is off doing whatever it is he is doing. She would crash and burn in some way. Has Logan met her? 
 

look veronica is guilty ans she is grieving  you are right that in the show Logan is patient and adult and mature and apparently James Bond only monogamous. There just sre those clues that there is more to be said about that, but you have to (as you said) step outside her narrative  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Affogato
Oh just tired

[Tachi Rocinante]

I only read couple of pages and stopped due to a lot of "feeling really angry/betrayed" posts.

• I've said it before - Logan was a douchebag of the highest order and his redemption arc was blatant fanservice bullshit. He didn't deserve to get all blown up though.  They would have been better off as exes who get along.
• So it was Penn all along.  What happened to his girlfriend? And did he actually kill the kid in the tent?
• Did Dick not get any of his Dad's money? Unless he blew it all less than One Year Later.
• Hello, Madam President.  She has a great voice for therapy.
• I think Keith will eventually lighten up on Clyde

[paulvdb]

On 7/25/2019 at 11:59 PM, Melina22 said:

I LOVED the bad true crime reenactment, and Keith and Veronica's reactions. By then I needed the laugh. Badly.

I just did a rewatch and I got to the part where Penn told Veronica that they'd get some shit actress to play her in the reenactment. I wished they had gotten Alyson Hannigan to cameo as Trina Echolls playing Veronica.

[Affogato]

On 6/9/2021 at 10:39 PM, Tachi Rocinante said:

I only read couple of pages and stopped due to a lot of "feeling really angry/betrayed" posts.

• I've said it before - Logan was a douchebag of the highest order and his redemption arc was blatant fanservice bullshit. He didn't deserve to get all blown up though.  They would have been better off as exes who get along.
• So it was Penn all along.  What happened to his girlfriend? And did he actually kill the kid in the tent?
• Did Dick not get any of his Dad's money? Unless he blew it all less than One Year Later.
• Hello, Madam President.  She has a great voice for therapy.
• I think Keith will eventually lighten up on Clyde

Keith and Veronica both made friends with someone and violated that trust, Veronica predictably gets rejected and Keith is forgiven.Every season they do something like that, to remind us they are basically the same person,. Yeah, he probably will lighten up, especially after Veronica spends most of her time out of town. 

You know how Lynn Echolls ended up becoming an alcoholic while staying with her kid, trying to get away from Aaron and finally killing herself when Logan turned 16 and could become an emancipated minor—which, of course, he didn’t?  If Logan had lived that is where Veronica was headed. She is codependently locked into what is an abusive relationship, Logan is fixated on her as part of his way to look normal to the outside world, and they are not breaking up. She was going toi end up living down the street from Wallace, with children. She would pull away from alcoholism, I think, but I don’t think her future was good if Logan lived. Douchebag and Jackass are cute names for malignant narcissist at best, sociopath at worse.

[Anela]

They really killed Logan, right after they got married.  That sucks.  
I’ve binged this in 2-1/2 weeks, I liked it, but damn, i wish they hadn’t done that. And the rich guys got richer, and got their wish of the town losing smaller businesses, and their luxury residences at the beach. 

One thing I did like, Logan aside, is that her strongest relationship throughout, was with her dad. 

[supposebly]

So, I accidentally came across this a few days ago. I had forgotten it existed, actually.

I really liked it up to the last few minutes. It felt mostly like Veronica Mars of old, it had a nice nostalgic feeling.

But, I think that show is done. I found her accepting the proposal came out of nowhere, and Logan getting blown up was stupid for all the reasons already mentioned. And if RT can't write a complex relationship that at its core, is quite strong, well, then I don't want to see it anyway. 

Why couldn't they develop the relationship without getting married going forward? It was quite clear that Veronica wasn't ready, Logan kind of accepted it or at least tried to deal with it, and I never understood why that was a bad thing. I think that would have worked for them and maybe gave some room to develop Veronica eventually a bit more. She did feel stagnant the way she was written in this season. It's too bad they don't let her evolve from her bitter mistrustful traumatized teenage self.

I really liked the little scene with Logan and his Navy buddy who helped him out. It showed a history between them and gave him a life outside his relationship with Veronica. There really wasn't much there. And his friendship with Dick is never really explored. Is it nostalgia that keeps him hanging out with him? If he developed past Veronica, he's miles ahead of Dick, who hasn't changed at all.

I agree there is no show without Neptune. 

I always liked VM's relationship with Keith the most. He broke my heart when he was so scared that he would get her hurt. And I hated seeing him forgetting things. So glad it turned out to be nothing. EC is just always fabulous in anything I see him. But even that hasn't changed much.

But, it seems most character development on this show happens off-camera, so, I wouldn't be very optimistic that there would be better writing in the future.

Noir, with its tropes doesn't allow for much character development anyway, so I guess, it's no surprise, that it's so lacking in that department.

[Affogato]

42 minutes ago, supposebly said:

So, I accidentally came across this a few days ago. I had forgotten it existed, actually.

I really liked it up to the last few minutes. It felt mostly like Veronica Mars of old, it had a nice nostalgic feeling.

But, I think that show is done. I found her accepting the proposal came out of nowhere, and Logan getting blown up was stupid for all the reasons already mentioned. And if RT can't write a complex relationship that at its core, is quite strong, well, then I don't want to see it anyway. 

Why couldn't they develop the relationship without getting married going forward? It was quite clear that Veronica wasn't ready, Logan kind of accepted it or at least tried to deal with it, and I never understood why that was a bad thing. I think that would have worked for them and maybe gave some room to develop Veronica eventually a bit more. She did feel stagnant the way she was written in this season. It's too bad they don't let her evolve from her bitter mistrustful traumatized teenage self.

I really liked the little scene with Logan and his Navy buddy who helped him out. It showed a history between them and gave him a life outside his relationship with Veronica. There really wasn't much there. And his friendship with Dick is never really explored. Is it nostalgia that keeps him hanging out with him? If he developed past Veronica, he's miles ahead of Dick, who hasn't changed at all.

I agree there is no show without Neptune. 

I always liked VM's relationship with Keith the most. He broke my heart when he was so scared that he would get her hurt. And I hated seeing him forgetting things. So glad it turned out to be nothing. EC is just always fabulous in anything I see him. But even that hasn't changed much.

But, it seems most character development on this show happens off-camera, so, I wouldn't be very optimistic that there would be better writing in the future.

Noir, with its tropes doesn't allow for much character development anyway, so I guess, it's no surprise, that it's so lacking in that department.

Veronica accepted the proposal because Logan was manipulating her, because she felt guilty for nothing, because she was trauma bonded with him. There was very consistant character development.  It just never lead to a strong healthy relationship bwtween Logan and Veronica. It just was never what the story was about.