Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Curio]

On 11/25/2016 at 11:12 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Regina's lack of screentime is a testament to the fact the Evil Queen is Regina.

Regina has a lack of screen time? Isn't she the one character who statistically has far more screen time than all the other characters this season? 

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Curio said:

Regina has a lack of screen time? Isn't she the one character who statistically has far more screen time than all the other characters this season? 

I'm pretty sure that's counting the Evil Queen as well. I'm talking about the "Regina" half. The Evil Queen has gotten tons of screen time. If you look at the chart below that Souris posted, it doesn't separate Regina and the Evil Queen.

I should also be more concise with the term "screen time". I don't mean moments where Regina is standing with the group or just running around doing plot things. I mean having one-on-one conversations or speaking her mind. In other words, "focus" is a more appropriate word to use.

On 11/14/2016 at 3:08 PM, Souris said:

Edited November 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It would be interesting to see the Regina/Evil Queen division.  It would also be interesting to see a bar graph based on words uttered.

[KAOS Agent]

I wondered if they double counted the time Regina and the Evil Queen were talking to each other. I'm guessing not. Regardless of screentime, the reality is that they've not had Regina express her inner thoughts/feelings while the Evil Queen has had multiple conversations with several different people where we see her point of view. If you're going to do this split, you need to allow the non-cartoon to have a POV. There's very little point in the split if they aren't willing to actually develop the character that's going to remain after the Evil Queen is vanquished or reabsorbed. What's different for Regina? How does she feel without her darker half? Does she feel lighter? Does she miss her dark side? Does she feel less conflicted about being "good"? 

Edited November 26, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

As it stands, Regina isn't affected at all.  The Evil Queen is like any other villain, except she knows how Regina thinks so nothing she comes up with works.  To A&E, that's the big "challenge" and makes The Evil Queen the most formidable villain EVER.  

They haven't even broached the possibility of Regina killing herself to get rid of The Evil Queen, have they?

[Mari]

Nope.

And while I wouldn't expect them to actually go through with it, it doesn't make sense that it hasn't come up at all.  Most of the main characters have sacrificed themselves, or at least tried to do so.  Even Rumple has.

It's pretty glaring that there hasn't even been a "Maybe RegularRegina should put herself into some sort of stasis" conversation.

I can't decide if that's because they love Regina so much it doesn't occur to them  it's even an option, or if it's because they're planning on a "shocking" twist, where Regina sacrifices herself.  (Like we haven't already seen that with Rumple, Emma, Hook, Snow . . .)

[Camera One]

Snow wouldn't suggest it since deep down, she can't lose Regina, even if it means she can never talk to her husband again, since some friendships are just worth it.  I suppose Emma sort of gave a more logical reason, that people would need Regina more than ever after she dies, since apparently no hero in all the magical realms has as much magic as Regina, including that weak Blue, the weak Dragon, the weak Glinda, the weak Merlin... the list goes on and on.  No one else has suggested it, since The Evil Queen hasn't done anything except to Snowing and to The Oracle, and who cares about her (her two "friends" haven't mentioned her once).

Edited November 26, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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They haven't even broached the possibility of Regina killing herself to get rid of The Evil Queen, have they?

I thought Regina asked Emma to kill her in 6x08? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

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And while I wouldn't expect them to actually go through with it, it doesn't make sense that it hasn't come up at all.  Most of the main characters have sacrificed themselves, or at least tried to do so.  Even Rumple has.

They could just take a little trip to the Underworld and resurrect her. No biggie. ;)

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I can't decide if that's because they love Regina so much it doesn't occur to them  it's even an option, or if it's because they're planning on a "shocking" twist, where Regina sacrifices herself.  (Like we haven't already seen that with Rumple, Emma, Hook, Snow . . .)

Without the Evil Queen, Regina probably has more self-awareness. The writers find that boring.

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 Regardless of screentime, the reality is that they've not had Regina express her inner thoughts/feelings while the Evil Queen has had multiple conversations with several different people where we see her point of view.

Besides the confusing and asinine moral implications, this is one of my biggest problems with the splitting arc. It's an excuse for Lana to chew the scenery as Evil Queen 2.0. It's not got nothing to do with Regina as a character. We've learned a little about one side of her, but her character is supposed to be about redemption and battling inner demons. All of that has been put on ice. The setup in the S5 finale regarding her dealing with her darkness has been thrown out the window. It has gone from an internal conflict to an external one, and it hasn't translated well.

No one likes Regina's moping, and that's all she's been doing since the split. I'm not surprised the Dragon was disappointed in her.

Edited November 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

21 minutes ago, Mari said:

And while I wouldn't expect them to actually go through with it, it doesn't make sense that it hasn't come up at all.  Most of the main characters have sacrificed themselves, or at least tried to do so.  

That's becasue Emma or Snow keep saving her ass and/or paying the price whenever Regina has to logically step up to the plate. 

[Mari]

Well, yes, but I honestly do not understand why we haven't had a scene where RegularRegina is in the Crypt preparing a suicide strategy, or a coma potion, or tracking down the magic-eliminating cuff, or crossing over into the LWM, or . . .

Like I said, I don't expect A&E to actually do anything permanent to Regina.  But, why haven't they had Regina try something, if only to end it when Henry (or please, not Emma.  Please.) interrupts her and gives her the "We're family and we'll overcome this."  (Blech.  Blech.  Blech.) speech?

I just don't get it.  

[KingOfHearts]

It's funny that the Evil Queen finally got her hands on Snow's heart, only to curse it instead of crushing it. I guess Regina was the one emotionally invested in revenge. EQ was just bored. Forcing people to take naps... the horror. Edgy Queen is so much worse than that massacring tyrant, am I right?

Edited November 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I thought Regina asked Emma to kill her in 6x08? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Yeah, they had a quick 10 second conversation right at the beginning of the episode where Regina was suggesting it, but then Emma stopped her because Emma still totally believes in her stupid death vision and she couldn't bear the thought of Henry losing both of his moms. And that's it. That's literally the only conversation we've gotten out of it. It's annoying because we all know Emma isn't going to die, and they didn't even bother talking about this plan with anyone else, even though the entire town is affected by the Evil Queen. It's two people deciding something for the greater good and screw everyone else.

And regarding not getting into Regina's mindset this season, I have to disagree. She's gotten plenty of dialogue and moments to explain how she's feeling, it's just usually boring or not what the audience wants to hear. Regina had the emotional focus of 6x01 and had the longest conversation of the season with Snow on the park bench. She was the emotional focus of 6x02 as she battled with the Count and later faced herself at the pier. She's the one who got to get angry with Emma for not being in her vision. She's the one who got the emotional focus in 6x08 where most of the conversations were about Regina moping about her other half while Emma reassured her. Regina practically has three centrics already this season, but the writers just don't give her anything juicy. She says things that should be important, but they're quickly glossed over because they need to move onto the next plot.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

On 11/26/2016 at 5:56 PM, KAOS Agent said:

I wondered if they double counted the time Regina and the Evil Queen were talking to each other. I'm guessing not. Regardless of screentime, the reality is that they've not had Regina express her inner thoughts/feelings while the Evil Queen has had multiple conversations with several different people where we see her point of view. If you're going to do this split, you need to allow the non-cartoon to have a POV. There's very little point in the split if they aren't willing to actually develop the character that's going to remain after the Evil Queen is vanquished or reabsorbed. What's different for Regina? How does she feel without her darker half? Does she feel lighter? Does she miss her dark side? Does she feel less conflicted about being "good"? 

The thing is, we actually know EQ's opinion and what drives her because we have season 1 and a million flashbacks telling us over and over what she wanted. It's not like her goals have changed, except she wants to fill the hole with Rumple.

Yeah, I know how that sounds.

[KingOfHearts]

I thought I would do a little research before this post and I looked Regina up on TVTropes. She has 225 tropes listed that apply to her. It's a pretty common thing to have a ton of tropes for a character on that site, so she's not special. But wow. I was expecting to just read through a few and get some insights. (No, I didn't read them all!) This is the "essay" post.

Regina is one of the most complex characters to dissect on the show. It is chiefly due to the sporadic nature of her portrayal, both in the writing and acting. Her role has been a primary antagonist, mother, daughter, lover, anti-hero, friend, rival, student, teacher, sheltered wife, black widow, stepmother, and so on. She has been on the highest mountains and in the lowest pits. Her multi-faceted personality is not a product of intelligent writing, but rather inconsistencies created as a side effect of an amateur attempt to write a deep, ever-evolving character. The reason she is so controversial is because different fans focus on different aspects of her character. Those who love her remember moments when she was sympathetic, a badass villain, or presented in a positive light. Those who have a distaste for her usually cite moments of hypocrisy, unpunished sins, or abrasive attitudes. It's easy to argue that one side of her can't exist if the other does.

All the way back in S1, the main objective in writing Regina was to give the show a clear, no-holds-barred antagonist. Her crimes were in the spotlight and none of the main characters had any appreciation for her. Any friends she had were manipulated by magic or fear. She was not intended to appear especially sympathetic or deserving of redemption. Instead, I would call her character at the time a tragedy. She was someone who was truly pushed over the edge and saw no choice but to embrace the darkness engulfing her. It was sad that her own paranoid selfishness brought agony to so many, including herself. I would be bold enough to say she was more sympathetic here than later, because the people around her were allowed to be angry with her. There were some consequences for her crimes (and more presumed to come with the breaking of the curse), so there was more room for possible redemption. The fate of her character was left ambiguous enough to keep her threatening, but also as a possibility to remain a main player.

The problems with Regina start with 1x18, the Stable Boy. Up to that point, the audience had no idea what her beef with Snow was. It was a given that it wouldn't be enough to justify her crimes, but it had to be something hitting deep enough to give her adequate emotions for abandoning all moral discernment. It was an opportunity to add a humanizing element. However, it went the opposite direction, whether intended by the writers or not. It made Regina even cartoonier and more psychotic for swearing revenge against a 10 year old. Granted, she found more reasons to be upset with Snow later in life with the jealousy factor. But, it's always Daniel that gets harped on. If Regina was always intended to be a batshit crazy villain, then there really is no fault in giving her a ridiculous root for her need for unholy vengeance. However, we know later that wasn't what the writers were going for.

2A took a completely new direction with almost immediately putting Regina on the path to repentance. While this new development was a bit abrupt, it came from a very logical place. She realized she had become her mother, and not only that, but that she hurt the one person she cared about - Henry. The gaslighting was addressed and pushed right into her face. After her revelation, Regina made an active choice for someone else's benefit by leaving Henry with David. What's important here is that she possessed empathy for her son. She didn't make a turnaround to be the hero or obtain any sort of social acceptance. She came to the conclusion what she did was wrong because it hurt someone she loved and she knew the pain he felt because it was the same she felt from Cora.

Having Regina pointing blame at Cora was a huge step in the right direction because it would lead into a very important lightbulb moment - Seeing Cora was responsible for Daniel's death, not Snow. 2B set this up perfectly with her putting the pieces together and becoming aware of the fact The Stable Boy events were entirely a premeditated scheme. So, why did Regina never realize this? It's a mixture of maternal fear and bad writing. Growing up, she was conditioned to have a fearful respect for her mother. As an adult, she was still too weak (yes, the show even says this) and insecure to confront her. Snow was an easier target to lash out her anger toward.* Also, think back to when in the show that Regina got the information that Cora manipulated everything surrounding Daniel's death. That was right before Cora was killed by Snow. The writers wanted to reignite the Regina/Snow feud, and they couldn't do that if Regina turned on her mother. So yeah, mostly a crappy writing choice to fit short-term needs.

S2 was both the beginning and the greatest downfall in Regina's redemption arc. I actually started watching Once Upon a Time midway through this season, so I was not aware of the severity of her crimes. I was very susceptible to the forced sympathy generated by the specific POV. If you don't think about the awfulness of her past, the woe-is-me scenes seem to have meaning. But when you're reminded, whether by village slaughter or Graham flashbacks, you come to this question - Is the Evil Queen really separate from Regina? 2B gives the answer - no. She is not. She went back to slaughtering entire populations through her failsafe scheme. That's no different. By the end of the season, she was no different from the person she was in S1.

The third season followed a more balanced approach with her. 3A kept her antagonistic and gray until 3x09, Save Henry. That episode included the infamous "No Regrets" speech. Some viewers saw it as a sign of strength, while others proof she had not progressed as a character at all. The reality is that it was impossible for her to have no regrets. We learned from the Evil Queen much later that she regretted gaslighting Henry, which was already explored in 2A. The fact she was able to escape the Regrets Tree has to be a plot hole. I have only two solutions. One, Regina was just really good at compartmentalizing and the tree couldn't get to the regrets hidden deep in her psyche. Two, she used her True Love for Henry (confirmed in 3B) to overpower the tree's magic. However she did it, I'm sure the writers meant for this to be the ultimate anti-hero moment. (When it was really contrived and undermined their own work.)

The transition into 3B was an interesting one for Regina. It was a nice, empathetic gesture for her to give memories of a good life to Henry and Emma. She didn't get any rewards for it, but she didn't lose anything either. That was probably the last time she did something nice solely out of love for Henry. Once she lost her son, we saw her dealing with the hole in her heart again. Finally, she knew what it was like to truly lose her child. That could have given her some understanding of what it was like for Snow to lose Emma. That comparison was drawn, but by Snow instead. The parallel bestowed Regina with validation instead of self-awareness. If you haven't noticed, the writers are prolific in creating perfect opportunities to accelerate her redemption then totally botching them.

Then we have Robin Hood. Oh boy. He was a free reward she did not need. Anyone who desperately requires approval from others should not dive right into a relationship. And, of all the eligible bachelors in Storybrooke, he was the worst option for her. She executed his wife and terrorized the peasants he pledged his life to protecting from the evil tyrants such as her. The only possible way their relationship could have been worth introducing was if he found out she killed Marian and they had a huge falling out, leading to her realizing her own actions destroyed her happiness. If the writers went that direction, she would have had to own up to her past if she ever hoped to get back with Robin. To think the writers set this all up perfectly with Marian's return from the dead.

Robin Hood was not the only important person inserted into Regina's life in 3B. Zelena dropped in like an anvil. At first, Zelena seemed like the perfect person to shove it in Regina's face that she is ungrateful for what she has. There was plenty of truth in the witch's words. In my opinion, giving Regina a new family member was a better idea than giving her a love interest. However, Zelena's usefulness fell flat midway through. She was your standard antagonist with blood ties tacked on. That letter Rumple wrote saying she was a better student than Regina defeated her purpose. She was supposed to be someone worse off than Regina, but instead Regina was complaining that Rumple liked her better. It was the one thing she had going for her, and that was just devastating to her younger sister. If only Regina knew what really happened with the love affair business...

3B was meant to be Regina's finest hour and the largest leap in her redemption arc yet. Not only was she able to TLK Henry, but also use light magic to defeat Zelena. In retrospect, I don't find these things very offensive. However, the TLK was, in my opinion, the first time that the concept got abused or watered down. True Love is usually associated with purity, and when you take away the Missing Year, it was only a few weeks ago that she was planning to kill her son's entire biological family. She hadn't interacted with Henry in 3B, so it felt really abrupt. The light magic didn't make her ascend into goddess-hood like we thought it might, and it hasn't been mentioned since, so I don't really have much of a problem with it when it comes to her character. It was the contrivance to save the day, much like the Gauntlet or Savior blood. The lack of sense in her ability to use light magic is a greater flaw in the show's magic system, not as much in Regina herself.

Your mileage may vary, but I believe 4A was pretty consistent with Regina's development up to that point. Her sense of entitlement and blaming the universe for her problems was a core element of her character since day one, and it has been present underneath every progressive step. She legitimately believed she deserved better than everyone else. The quest to "change the book" and find the Author was a ridiculous idea that could only originate from her brain. The reason 4A seems so regressive for her was that she got all the rewards prematurely in 3B. She got a love interest, validation from the Charmings, love from her son, a moment of heroic glory, etc. She received those things with very little effort. While in 3B you could just say fortune favored her, in 4A it's revealed she only changed her ways because of those rewards. Once she lost one (one!), she acted like her world shattered. Her happiness was always based on circumstances, and that had not changed.

4B was another attempt at finishing out Regina's "happy ending" business. The big lesson to be learned was that happiness was her choice and not dependent on what she did or didn't have. She figured this out in 4x20, Mother, when she remembered what Cora had told her. But this lesson did not really work. Why? Because she made her turnaround after getting Robin back. Even Zelena pointed that out. Again, like 3B, she only put on her churchgoer act because she got everything she wanted. If she had chosen to be happy before Robin's return, then that would have been a sign of real growth. He would have been the bonus she made it sound like he was. 4B should have really changed her mindset. Remembering Cora's lesson should have been a pivotal moment. Sadly, it joined a long list of missed opportunities.

Starting in 5A, Regina began getting that "I'm a hero" big head. A lot of it had to do with looking high and mighty against Zelena. She loved being superior because she has always adored controlling others. None of the other characters questioned it because they treated Zelena like cattle anyway. When she wasn't controlling her sister, she was manhandling Emma with the Dagger... gleefully. Her lack of empathy began to show again in bits and pieces. Early in the arc, she was willing to sacrifice herself to save Robin from the Fury. But, like with Percival, her conflict was quickly cut off and she suffered no consequences.** It was nice she put herself on the line, but she did the same thing in 2B. In both cases, she setup what she had to clean up. If she hadn't gone around burning villages, Percival wouldn't have tried to kill her. If the Fury came after Granny, would she make the same sacrifice? Do heroes only care about those close to them? (On this show, they may...)

The Underworld surprisingly did a lot of good for Regina, despite avoiding her countless victims' souls completely. Her apology scene with her father was one of her most altruistic and poignant moments in the show. Since his murder was always in the show's fabric, her coming to terms with him held a lot of weight. Other than that, it was nice to see her want to save other souls in the Underworld. (Even people she didn't relate to or love romantically.) I wish we could have seen more of that. While Cora's grand reentry could have fixed a lot of the 2B issues, it benefited Zelena considerably more. I believe Regina's reconciliation with her sister was purely in the heat of the moment to make her mother happy. It didn't sustain afterwards. Throughout the entire fifth season, and even into the sixth, she kept a very holier-than-thou attitude towards Zelena.

At the end of 5B, Regina lost her boyfriend for the fourth time.*** Before Robin's death, it seemed like she was finally getting to be a good person, like she reached the other side. But again, that was because she had Robin with her and Zelena on a tight leash. After she lost him, her reaction to his murder was no different than Daniel's or when she lost him to Marian in 3x22/4A. Instead of just grieving, she immediately began directing her anger toward others. She has done this three times. First she blamed Snow for Daniel's loss, then she blamed Emma for bringing back Marian, and then blamed Zelena for Hades obliterating Robin and wanted to rip out Hook's throat. Her pattern of behavior has not changed. It seems to be an immovable part of her character.

Not only did she start blaming others, but she tried fixing everything with hackneyed magical schemes. After losing Daniel, she went to Frankenstein to resurrect him. After losing Robin to Marian, she decided to force the Author to change her destiny. After losing Robin again, she decided to split herself using the Jekyll/Hyde serum. (What is with her using services from professionals doing malpractice?) Instead of confronting life like a normal person, she turns to artificial solutions. She is so afraid of dealing with her inward issues that she will do anything as an alternative.

And that brings us to the split. The split was the both the most nonsensical and most meta method to explore Regina from different perspectives. I have tried and tried to analyze how it works, but there are no straight answers. The writers are doing whatever they want with it, only thinking episode-to-episode. Before, the show put a lot of emphasis on The Evil Queen being the source of Regina's darkness, right up to the serum injection. We knew better, just like with the Author plot. From what we've seen, it's obvious - you can't just split someone into black and white. I believe the writers are trying to say that now, but they've been saying darkness and light are easily discernible for several seasons. There's Hero Regina, and there's Villain Regina. The terms have been specific. She has never been meant to be gray. Again, the writers are undermining their own work.

To truly understand the current state of Regina, you have to look at where her character has been across the seasons. You have to take into account her past as the murderous Evil Queen, the times she saved the day, and all the close-up shots of her tears falling into her lasagna, collectively. One episode taken out of the whole context can totally change your view of the character if you omit everything else. With the recent speech against Zelena, putting her "development" as the backdrop makes her look very irredeemable. As they say, if you forget history, you are doomed to repeat it. Regina seems to have forgotten hers.

All in all, these are the major problems with Regina as a character:

• Her writing is too inconsistent. Today she's a hero, tomorrow she's a villain. Like all the other characters, her motives change depending on the plot. With her, it's much more obvious because the writers hit us over the head with a sledge hammer to make sure we know how she currently feels.
• There have been too many missed opportunities to give her a come-to-Jesus moment. The writers excel at creating perfect scenarios for self-awareness, they just don't utilize them. Every. Single. Time. They always come short of giving Regina the remorse needed for repentance.
• We're supposed to believe she has healthy relationships, but she has no empathy. It's not believable that she has close friendships with Snow or Emma, or a functioning parent-child relationship with Henry. Her recent good deeds all circle back to the need to be glorified and approved. She "cares" for others out of obligation, not love.
• Her character development is almost non-existent. I see a lot of people say she has had the most development out of any character on the show. I disagree. The only difference between S1 and S6 is that now she has this need to look righteous that prevents her from murdering people. She is still blaming the wrong people and ignoring her own flaws. The honor of most development would definitely go to Hook.
• The writers don't care about her, only our perception of her. It's a pretty open secret that she is A&E's favorite to write for. She usually gets the most emotion to work through. It's easy to think they want the best for her, but all they're really after is sympathy from the audience and scenery chewing. It's all very superficial for such a "deep" character. They don't want her to progress or achieve goals. They want her in one perpetual state so they can repeat the same beats that get them excited. I shouldn't have to only choose between, "Poor Regina!" and "Oh gosh! She's so sassy!" Of course, I have more reactions than that, but those are the only two intended ones. Oh, and maybe, "Regina! You're so heroic! Why can't Emma be more like you?"

She was once my favorite character, but I've realized the cons outweigh the pros. Goodbye, Regina. Hello, Zelena.

* Even now, Zelena is an easy target. Hades is dead, so Regina can't very well plan revenge against him.
** Unless you believe Robin's death later was a fateful result of dodging the Fury.
*** Including Daniel, the Marian surprise, and the townline departure at the end of 4A.

Edited November 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[daxx]

Wow @KingOfHearts that's an amazing assessment of Regina and very thorough.

[Rumsy4]

Great summarizing, @KingOfHearts. You've actually explained Regina's confusing characterization very well. I agree that Regina hasn't had a true "come-to-Jesus" moment. Her changes are all superficial. In her inner core--she's the same. It's not a bad thing per se. However, it's the hypocrisy surrounding her self-perception and treatment by others that make her hard to root for. 

I also agree that the writers don't really care for her. I used to think they loved Regina. They don't. They love writing her as the campy Evil Queen, being "sassy", showing off her evil cleavage, and spending their budget on elaborate costumes for her (three in one episode!!). They don't respect any of their charatcers. Otherwise they wouldn't make them regress to the point of unlikeability in the sixth season of the Show. 

[Camera One]

It was only in 2B that they decided to make Regina a village murderer. It was wholly unnecessary.  Burning villages down would have been enough.  Clearly, the Writers never felt they were wrong, because as late as 4B, they had her murdering random grooms she met because she was having a bad day.   Which makes it all the more unlikely why she hasn't murdered half of Storybrooke by now.

[KingOfHearts]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It was only in 2B that they decided to make Regina a village murderer. It was wholly unnecessary.  Burning villages down would have been enough.  Clearly, the Writers never felt they were wrong, because as late as 4B, they had her murdering random grooms she met because she was having a bad day.   Which makes it all the more unlikely why she hasn't murdered half of Storybrooke by now.

And they brought it up again in 6A with Monte Cristo pretending to be a survivor.

I love how Snow saw the pile of dead bodies and thought, "This is unforgivable! She is a terrible person!" then later, when she was about to execute her, "There has to be good in her heart still."

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It's actually rather impressive how many come-to-Jesus moments she's had without actually coming to Jesus. It just makes her look even more narcissistic and sociopathic, since she's utterly incapable of empathy.

I think the entire 6A arc has been a missed come-to-Jesus moment. She is watching her former self terrorize others and doesn't think for a second, "Was I really like that? Is this really who I am?" Again, she avoids taking responsibility for her inner demons because she's too afraid to confront them.

Edited November 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

There have been too many missed opportunities to give her a come-to-Jesus moment. The writers excel at creating perfect scenarios for self-awareness, they just don't utilize them. Every. Single. Time. They always come short of giving Regina the remorse needed for repentance.

That's one of my biggest frustrations. It's all there, and they miss it almost every time. The only time they actually used it was when she realized she was doing to Henry what Cora had done to her. Otherwise it's almost like they don't realize what they're writing and miss it entirely, and her missing what should be huge metaphorical whacks upside the head is part of why I dislike her so much and why her friendships ring so hollow.

1. The infamous "why don't I get to go to the family dinner?" moment could have been when she realized what she'd done to these people and saw that their love triumphed over all her evil and she realized she needed to change her ways. Instead, she feels sorry for herself.
2. She finds out Cora was framing her and manipulating her. She could have realized that Cora was her real enemy and 10-year-old Snow who had no idea who or what she was dealing with didn't stand a chance if she as an adult who knew Cora was so easily manipulated. But she sides with Cora.
3. She finds out Cora murdered Snow's mother and it was all a plot to get her to be able to marry Leopold, long before Snow said a word about Daniel, and then she sees Cora go back on her word and murder Snow's former nurse. She keeps siding with Cora and blames Snow for killing Cora.
4. She sees how horrified Henry is with her plan to kill his family and run away with him. But this doesn't make her rethink it. She wipes his memory and never comes clean about that, even while they supposedly have this wonderful relationship.
5. She's separated from Henry, stuck in another world where she can't reach him. But it never occurs to her that Snow might be going through the same thing. They miraculously become best buds during this time without her showing the slightest shred of empathy or awareness of what others are going through or that she put others through this kind of pain.
6. She sees Zelena and that she had a worse life than she did. She learns nothing from this.
7. One of her former victims, Marian, appears. This (temporarily) makes her lose her boyfriend. She never connects this to what she did to Emma with Graham or what she did to Snow when she made him be "married" to Kathryn. She can only see herself as the victim. And then he chooses her over his wife, anyway.
8. She's made to literally walk in Snow's shoes when the Author's AU puts her in Snow's role, having to live as an outlaw bandit while an evil queen tries to track her down for revenge. This never comes up again, she never mentions to Snow having learned anything from experiencing what she put Snow through.
9. She comes face-to-face with one of her former victims, and her boyfriend nearly dies while the former victim is killed. She doesn't seem to have a moment of awareness of her responsibility in any of it.

It's actually rather impressive how many come-to-Jesus moments she's had without actually coming to Jesus. It just makes her look even more narcissistic and sociopathic, since she's utterly incapable of empathy.

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I love how Snow saw the pile of dead bodies and thought, "This is unforgivable! She is a terrible person!"  then later, when she was about to execute her, "There has to be good in her heart still."

Thinking someone is unforgivable is different from being able to be the one responsible for executing someone.  The "There has to be good" line sounds a lot like Belle.

Back to the village massacre, the whole situation was framed as "Regina was soooooooo close to making a breakthrough and Snow took it away by rejecting her."  It's similar to how they made it seem like Young Emma was responsible for condemning Young Lily to a horrible life, by not taking her back as a friend.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Thinking someone is unforgivable is different from being able to be the one responsible for executing someone.  The "There has to be good" line sounds a lot like Belle.

Thing is, Snow almost killed Regina right after saying she was unforgivable, then chose not to. Similar circumstances. The point is that Snow thought Regina wasn't redeemable after the massacre, but thought she was after the canceled execution, when Regina had done nothing different.

Edited November 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Okay, I see.  I didn't remember she tried to kill the dear fake peasant woman after the village massacre... what a meanie.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

Quote

It's similar to how they made it seem like Young Emma was responsible for condemning Young Lily to a horrible life, by not taking her back as a friend.

What's funny is that the writers shot themselves in the foot there too.  Had they tried to claim that while 4x05 was all we had to go by, I could see it as a valid argument, since Lily made a mistake and lied to Emma but there was no malice to it and Emma majorly overreacted by shunning her, IMO.  But then they did 4x19, in which we see that Emma and Lily met again after Emma was adopted, Emma DID take her back as a friend, and Lily very deliberately lied to her once more and screwed up her life situation.  When Emma rejected Lily again after THAT, it was 100% justified, yet we're still supposed to believe Emma was at fault for Lily's bad life? (And no matter what Emma did or didn't do, it was Snow, Charming and Isaac that are to blame for Lily's bad life.  They're the ones who caused her to be double-dosed on darkness.)

[TheGreenKnight]

Tbh, I think Regina's trouble with thinking of anything internally, but projecting her emotions onto an external scapegoat is likely an intentional part of her character in the same way that Rumpel just cannot let go of his power despite how much he suffers for it repeatedly. I would never say she's fully over the bridge, but she has progressed quite a lot in comparison to where she was.

I think Zelena became my favorite character in 5A when Regina was being a huge hypocrite towards her, trying to keep her away from her daughter. Plus, Zelena wasn't bogged down with a dud of a love interest like Robin. I disagree that that same hypocritical attitude of Regina's carried over to 5B though. When Regina and Zelena meet in the Underworld, Regina acts quite differently towards Zelena beginning when Zelena decides to give her daughter to Robin because she's hurting her. And Regina even attempts to reach out to her and help her redeem herself like she has re:Hades. No, it isn't until the season 6 premiere that Regina reverted back to 5A with Zelena. I think this was partly contrived to drag out the reaction to Robin's death, because Regina didn't seem at all angry with Zelena in 5's finale. If anything, she was angry at Emma, and that anger was resolved when both she and Snow advised her to separate herself.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Tbh, I think Regina's trouble with thinking of anything internally, but projecting her emotions onto an external scapegoat is likely an intentional part of her character in the same way that Rumpel just cannot let go of his power despite how much he suffers for it repeatedly. I would never say she's fully over the bridge, but she has progressed quite a lot in comparison to where she was.

Regina has always had insecurities she hasn't wanted to confront. Whenever someone points them out, she gets defensive. ("I AM NOT WEAK!") The Evil Queen has always been the mask, and because she is now separate, Regina is timid and doesn't face her issues at all.

Quote

I think Zelena became my favorite character in 5A when Regina was being a huge hypocrite towards her, trying to keep her away from her daughter. 

Regina does not like Zelena because she reveals her true nature. She hasn't drunk the kool-aid like Snow or Emma. Regina sees herself in her sister, so putting her down and not interacting with her is how she suppresses dealing with her own self. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[janett snakehole]

Even though I have Regina blacklisted on tumblr, every once and awhile someone will reblog something that sneaks in. Today I saw this:

"Yo Regina had no experience with being a parent (or a good parent, at least), she had no one to tell her how to raise a baby, completely relied on her own abuse to know what not to do with her son, and still ended up being a kick ass single mom who had a very demanding job on top of that.

She never had help, never had a partner to take some of the weight off of her shoulders, totally educated herself on how to raise a child, and she was completely okay with that. She raised Henry with all the love she had in her heart, was actually a good mom, and didn’t even know what she was doing. 

Regina Mills is an amazing woman and I’m ready to fight anyone who disagrees." 

We all have different views/interpretations/understanding of canon what have you, but this is a view I am the most baffled by. That there is any canon evidence that Regina was a good mother is something I have never been convinced of. I see similar sentiments from most Regina fans and I truly do not get it. We all have our problematic faves, but I really dislike misrepresentation of canon and the characters as they're written. 

Also, I have seen the argument multiple times that because Henry turned out mostly okay that means Regina was a good mom. Again, flawed logic in my opinion. For one, having a kid turn out okay doesn't always say much about parenting considering good people can spawn serial killers and being abused by your parents doesn't mean you will end up being a completely dysfunctional person. Emma had a hard childhood with no lasting parental figures, so that logic has no basis in-show. It also seems to excuse Regina's abuse- He turned out fine, so it doesn't matter. 

*As an aside, exactly what was this demanding job?? He orchestrated a curse and set everyone exactly how she wanted and mostly living the same day over and over. How was that demanding?

 

**One more. It's funny that many Regina stans like to cite Regina's abuse by Cora and that somehow excuses and justifies so much of what she does, but then refuse to acknowledge that she abused Henry. Can't have it both ways. Cora isn't the only dysfunctional or abusive parent on once.  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

She never had help, never had a partner to take some of the weight off of her shoulders, totally educated herself on how to raise a child, and she was completely okay with that. She raised Henry with all the love she had in her heart, was actually a good mom, and didn’t even know what she was doing. 

I'm pretty sure Regina did have help raising Henry. At least, it's implied she did. When he was a baby and she couldn't stop him from crying, Granny stepped in to help soothe him. We also saw that he had a close relationship with Mary Margaret. Whenever Regina did flail, she had an arsenal of yesmen with experience to assist her. I'm not saying she didn't learn anything on her own, she learned quite a bit, but it's not as if she was a single mother on the streets with no help whatsoever.

Quote

**One more. It's funny that many Regina stans like to cite Regina's abuse by Cora and that somehow excuses and justifies so much of what she does, but then refuse to acknowledge that she abused Henry. Can't have it both ways. Cora isn't the only dysfunctional or abusive parent on once.  

This definitely started as a writing problem. Bad childhood = excuse to be evil. We saw that especially with 6x09, where the Black Fairy abandoning Rumple supposedly vindicated his hatred for fairies. Regina was definitely abused, but not in the same way as someone like Zelena. It's just my opinion, but Cora thought she was doing what was best for her daughter, even if she went about it selfishly. She was desperate to put her into royalty and make her a powerful figure. Regina grew up in a nice house with a luxurious lifestyle. That doesn't excuse the abuse, but Cora being a manipulator does not instantly spawn an evil dictator. There's been countless other mothers like her in other shows, and their children did not all turn into psychotic murderers.

Don't forget - Regina also grew up the whole way with two parents. That can't be said for most of the other characters. One parent was a better influence and shared a mutual love with her. If Cora provides the excuse for her to be evil, why doesn't Henry Sr. provide the reasoning to be good? Regina has been so manipulated in her adulthood by Cora, Rumple, and others that she comes off as really dumb. Not victimized, just dumb.

Edited November 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

I saw that post too @janett snakehole. That's why I rebbloged this one. Regina was and still is a terrible, terrible mother.

[Mathius]

It was one of the most bizarre moments in 6x08 when the EQ acted toward Henry exactly how Regina did in S1 and S2, yet Regina concludes that the EQ was the kind of mother she COULD have become.  WTF?  You DID become that mother!  Just because you aren't now doesn't change that fact.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

20 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

Regina was and still is a terrible, terrible mother.

IMO, Regina and Emma are both terrible mothers. They constantly put their son in danger, they don't keep him in school, and they let him get away with murder. Regina will always be worse and the abusive one, but there's just a lot of bad parenting in this show in general.

Edited November 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

Oh, I agree. Emma is also a bad mother. But it's different. Emma is still learning and she is a neglectful mother. Regina has been Henry's mother for more than ten years (how old is that kid?) and she is neglectful and abusive. Emma has never treated Henry the way Regina has, not even when she was the DO. 

[tri4335]

I'm pretty sure the only good parent on the show was Jefferson.

[KingOfHearts]

27 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

Oh, I agree. Emma is also a bad mother. But it's different. Emma is still learning and she is a neglectful mother. Regina has been Henry's mother for more than ten years (how old is that kid?) and she is neglectful and abusive. Emma has never treated Henry the way Regina has, not even when she was the DO. 

Taking this to the Relationships thread.

[TheGreenKnight]

8 hours ago, janett snakehole said:

We all have different views/interpretations/understanding of canon what have you, but this is a view I am the most baffled by. That there is any canon evidence that Regina was a good mother is something I have never been convinced of. I see similar sentiments from most Regina fans and I truly do not get it. We all have our problematic faves, but I really dislike misrepresentation of canon and the characters as they're written. 

Disagreeing on the canon isn't the same as misrepresenting the canon.

I'm not convinced that Regina really did abuse Henry. The most she did was lie to him about the truth of the town (which all happened in the few months we saw on the show, since I doubt he had these questions his entire life); parents lie to their children all the time, that's hardly abuse. No way do I consider her anywhere in the same vicinity as Cora. The one time she felt she was being like Cora--using magic to force him to stay with her and do as she wished--she let him go. Moreover, Cora only ever saw Regina as an object to further herself; Regina wanted Henry for his own sake when she adopted him. I wouldn't write home about her being a great mother, but I don't see her as abusive either.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina Mills Arguments Debunked - EPISODE 1: Regina Never Abused Henry

This is an interesting video on the subject of Regina's parenting. (Warning: It's pretty biased)

Edited December 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[janett snakehole]

She didn't just lie to him, she deliberately tried to make him think he was crazy. (The giftset linked by RadioGirl27 shows the scene from the show where he tells Regina that.) And in season four or five she says she regrets making him think he was crazy, so she confirms it herself. I see that as gas lighting, which is emotional abuse. We also got dialogue in season one confirming that she would leave him alone for great lengths of time. Considering his age at the time, that is definitely neglect. Not to mention when she told him she was going to kill his whole family and the town and then wiped the memory. She has gotten better of course, but I don't know what scenes from the show prove she was a good mother before the curse broke and her redemption started. 

But I do agree that she wasn't as bad as Cora. I don't totally agree that Cora only saw Regina as an object. I do think she loved her and wanted what was best for her, but projected her own desires and goals onto Regina. She was definitely abusive and a bad mother. 

Regina adopted Henry to heal the hole in her heart. She adopted a baby so someone would love her and fix the self-inflicted consequence of casting the curse (and because she was bored). She wanted a child for how they would maker her feel and Henry was chosen due to of a combination of destiny shenanigans and illegal dealings.

It's not that I think it's impossible that she was at times a good mother during the curse, but it definitely wasn't shown at any point. The only thing that comes close that I can remember is when she looked at baby Henry with love when he finally stopped crying in episode where we see the adoption. That's why I fundamentally disagree with assertions that she was a good mother and Henry turning out the way he did is proof of that. Especially considering that this is a show where people rarely react in ways that make emotional or logical sense. If they want Henry to not seem traumatized from abuse, he won't. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/30/2016 at 3:53 PM, KingOfHearts said:

It's just my opinion, but Cora thought she was doing what was best for her daughter, even if she went about it selfishly. She was desperate to put her into royalty and make her a powerful figure.

I recently watched the PBS showing of the West End production of Gypsy, and Cora was basically Mama Rose, pushing her daughter into doing what she actually wanted for herself but that her daughter didn't want. June ran away from it, but Louise did more like Regina, choosing to go along with it, even when she didn't have to.

I've mentioned this in the writers thread, but it's weird how Regina is clearly the writers' favorite character, but she gets the worst writing. They seem to love her like she's a real person, so they want to give her all the good things, but they don't seem to enjoy really writing for her. If she were a favorite character to write for, they'd have had plenty of material in giving her a slow, difficult redemption process or a slow-build romance that was a real struggle and had a lot of conflict. Instead, they just give her stuff. They write her like they're the wishy-washy parents of a spoiled toddler, like "You've been naughty! Go sit in the corner, and I'm confiscating your favorite toy." And then five minutes later, after a few tears, it's "Oh, don't cry, here's your toy." Or "No dessert until you eat your vegetables," and then after some tears, "Oh, don't cry, have some cake." Every time they try to give her some angst, they very quickly cave -- she's losing Henry for good because magic comes at a price and that's her sacrifice, but then he gets all his memories back and they suddenly have this great relationship that actually bears no resemblance to the relationship they had the last time they were really interacting. They try to give her angst with Robin when Marian showed up, but he very quickly chose her over Marian. They tried again when he left town, but then it turned out that Marian was really Zelena. She did manage half a season of seeming to go through a process of repentance and working toward change, but then they got bored with that and she was instantly redeemed. They wanted to give her a love interest, and they sprinkled pixie dust and gave her an instant soulmate rather than have her work through any kind of process or journey toward a relationship.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 9:34 PM, janett snakehole said:

She didn't just lie to him, she deliberately tried to make him think he was crazy. (The giftset linked by RadioGirl27 shows the scene from the show where he tells Regina that.) And in season four or five she says she regrets making him think he was crazy, so she confirms it herself. I see that as gas lighting, which is emotional abuse. We also got dialogue in season one confirming that she would leave him alone for great lengths of time. Considering his age at the time, that is definitely neglect. Not to mention when she told him she was going to kill his whole family and the town and then wiped the memory. She has gotten better of course, but I don't know what scenes from the show prove she was a good mother before the curse broke and her redemption started. 

But that wasn't what I was arguing at all. My point is that many--like myself--do not agree with the judgment that the above scenes make her abusive. She was a mother who was overly cold and who could've done better with Henry, but at the same time I would not designate her an abusive mother by any means. There are many parents who are distant, harsh or selfish and could've done much more than they did for their children--that doesn't make them abusive.

20 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I recently watched the PBS showing of the West End production of Gypsy, and Cora was basically Mama Rose, pushing her daughter into doing what she actually wanted for herself but that her daughter didn't want. June ran away from it, but Louise did more like Regina, choosing to go along with it, even when she didn't have to.

Well, except for the parts where Rose didn't physically restrain her daughter and kill her fiancé to keep her from leaving the life that Rose was forcing on her.

[KingOfHearts]

Cora has always been an extreme version of the "overbearing mother-in-law" archetype to me.

[Shanna Marie]

44 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Well, except for the parts where Rose didn't physically restrain her daughter and kill her fiancé to keep her from leaving the life that Rose was forcing on her.

Yeah, but then there wasn't also the part where Louise sent Rose through a dressing room mirror into another dimension where she could no longer control her and then went on the stage and stripped, anyway.

But that would have made the musical utterly awesome.

[TheGreenKnight]

You're right that Regina chose to go through with the marriage to Leopold. But there's also no denying that with Daniel dead, the life Regina had wanted for herself was also dead.

[Mari]

2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

But that wasn't what I was arguing at all. My point is that many--like myself--do not agree with the judgment that the above scenes make her abusive. She was a mother who was overly cold and who could've done better with Henry, but at the same time I would not designate her an abusive mother by any means. There are many parents who are distant, harsh or selfish and could've done much more than they did for their children--that doesn't make them abusive.

Um . . . There's a difference between distant and cold, and deliberately hurting your child to make your life better, or to enjoy the suffering of others.

Abuse comes in many forms, and emotional abuse is still considered abuse.  As for being selfish and not doing as much as she could have, like many other parents?  Well, the health and human services report form in the US includes neglect.  Ignoring your child's needs, whether through ignorance or through malice, is not considered appropriate parenting.

 

Regina purposely made him doubt his own sanity, threatened him, and threatened people he cared about--and it's not like she was threatening the creepy predatory teacher out of protectiveness. 

If they had lived anywhere in the US other than the Regina-controlled Storybrooke, Regina would have been under investigation for abuse and neglect several times over.  She might not have lost custody, but her parenting would have been supervised.

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Mari said:

Um . . . There's a difference between distant and cold, and deliberately hurting your child to make your life better, or to enjoy the suffering of others.

I don’t consider lying to a child as hurting them, otherwise most parents would be in jail for making their children believe in Santa Clause or misinforming them about where babies come from.

3 hours ago, Mari said:

Abuse comes in many forms, and emotional abuse is still considered abuse. 

Uh... Did I say it wasn't?

3 hours ago, Mari said:

Well, the health and human services report form in the US includes neglect.  

There is nothing on the show that makes me believe Regina neglected Henry. Considering she was watching where he was going and keeping eyes on him at all times to make sure he wasn't with Emma, I would say she was controlling more than she was neglectful.

Edited December 2, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Mari]

She lied to her child about his own mental health.  That is more like convincing your child (and his medical care giver) about him having severe attention problems, so that you can get the medications for yourself, than it is lying to your child about Santa.  The two things are not the same.  Not remotely.

She did not tell her child a little white lie, or the kind of story you tell small children about where babies or rain come from.  She didn't even tell him what some would consider a kind lie, to spare his feelings.  (Daddy couldn't come, but he really, really wanted to come.  He had to go out of town.  Instead of--Daddy has really written you off and is busy inspecting his new girlfriend's breast enhancement surgery while they vacation in Tahiti.)

She lied to him, and his medical care giver (Archie), on purpose, to make him, and Archie, doubt his sanity.  That's pretty vicious.  It's abuse.

I'll stop now, though, because I don't think we're ever going to agree on this topic.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Mari
Making point clearer.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Mari said:

If they had lived anywhere in the US other than the Regina-controlled Storybrooke, Regina would have been under investigation for abuse and neglect several times over.  She might not have lost custody, but her parenting would have been supervised.

In anyplace in the US other than Regina-controlled Storybrooke, Archie would have been obligated to report her to child welfare officials because she was dictating diagnosis and treatment to him based on what she wanted, rather than what was best for his patient, and she asked the therapist to help her undermine someone else her son trusted.

Regina's behavior wouldn't have been that unreasonable for any other parent in Storybrooke who didn't know the truth about what was happening. Any parent would be concerned if their son started talking about everyone in town being fairy tale characters and his mother being the evil queen, if he started hanging out with his birth mother behind his adoptive mother's back, and was running away or sneaking off a lot. But Regina knew that Henry was right about the fairy tales, and her real issue with the birth mother was the fact that she could break the curse. That was what made her actions not the reasonable actions of a concerned mother, but rather emotional abuse done to benefit her, to try to keep her curse in effect. She wasn't actually trying to hurt Henry, except in the case when she set him up to hear Emma say that she didn't believe him so he'd be hurt and hate Emma. She just disregarded Henry's feelings in her determination to maintain her control over him and the town, and was so caught up in trying to maintain the curse that she was willing to do whatever it took, even if it hurt Henry.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Regina's behavior wouldn't have been that unreasonable for any other parent in Storybrooke who didn't know the truth about what was happening. 

The show tries to toe the line between Regina's being a concerned mother and an evil mastermind. The writers have even talked about her paranoia being understandable. But, to make her really sympathetic, you have to gut her knowledge of the Savior, many of her schemes, and a good chunk of the abuse. She instantly becomes more identifiable when you take away the fact she's the Evil Queen and actively (or attempting to) murdering people. If she didn't have her memories and she was just a strict mother, or she was trying to turn over a new page in another realm to leave her Evil Queen days behind her, then you have a much better candidate for redemption. But, at the same time, you would lose the strong antagonist S1 needed.

Ultimately, the writers made the right choice to make her a straight forward villain in S1. Her insecurities as a single adoptive mother supplement reasons for her behavior, but they don't humanize her like A&E would like to think. Other than the Stable Boy, I don't see too many writing problems with her character in the first season. What was on screen and what the writers said in interviews were detached as always.

Edited December 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Mari said:

I'll stop now, though, because I don't think we're ever going to agree on this topic.

Nope.

[KingOfHearts]

The Cricket Game addresses Regina's past crimes and her victims in all the wrong ways. It's contrived, forced, and persuasive. Instead of paying for her past crimes, Regina was dogged for something she didn't even do. The flashbacks actually removed some sympathy for Snowing because anything she did after the execution could have been stopped if they had gone through with it. Even though she was rightfully judged for her iniquities, she was not effectively punished, she learned nothing, and society received no benefit. Regarding justice, it proved to be a moot affair and a lesson in how awful Snowing make as rulers.

In late 2A, Emma said vindictively,  "Regina. She's the one we should blame," indicating a much needed plot to redress the open wounds Regina left, both from Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest. Strangely, she dropped this entirely in Cricket Game and actually acted as an apologist right up until she received undeniable evidence that she committed murder. You know, if the writers really wanted to turn her against Regina, the circumstances of Graham's death could have resurfaced. Killing another character was completely unnecessary. 

Another element in the mix was the fact Regina had taken steps to redeem herself while Emma and Snow were away. Though David knew this, we never saw him take it into account. (Not that he had much reason to, but we never saw him give Snow and Emma the rundown of what happened while they were gone.) So, the writing was even more manipulative for making Snow and Emma look like they were angry based on partial information. Of course, we were smart enough to see past that, but that was an aspect of the narrative. It was pretty convenient it all transpired immediately after the return.

In the end, no one learned anything, Regina and Snow had their characters assassinated, and Cora got exactly what she wanted out of it. What a waste of time. A&E probably think that episode dealt with Regina's crimes perfectly and they never need to be addressed so openly again.

[TheGreenKnight]

I just had a stray thought and wanted to say that even though I don’t think she abused Henry, child abuse is still one of her crimes—see Snow White, Hansel and Gretel, her attempt to harm Emma as a baby, Owen (was that his name? Tamara's partner), and probably others that aren’t springing immediately to mind.

[KingOfHearts]

Nothing against her personally, but I don't think Lana is that great of an actress. Regina is a very complex role that requires a considerable amount of skill. I just don't think Lana can portray grayness or a variety of emotions that well. She's either in Woe-is-me Mode or Scenery Devouring Villain Mode. Whenever she's supposed to be a "good guy", she doesn't seem all that genuine. The faults in the character rests mostly on the writers' shoulders for sure, but the acting doesn't help. Some of her choices have been odd for a character attempting to redeem themselves. 

I do wonder if her acting has reflected back on how the writers have written her character. I don't think she's a bad actress by any means, but I don't think she has what it takes for what the role would require. She does the Evil Queen well, however that's about it.

Edited December 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts