Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Faemonic]

At the end it wasn't even about the power Emma was afraid of. It was her thinking of having a happy ending. I forgot the name of what Emma has but its for those people who are afraid of ever being happy.

Cynicism? Philophobia (fear of receiving love)?

 

Regina doesn't know Emma at all and I need the show to stop acting like she does.

It's from the show that we know Regina was wrong about Emma at all, though.

 

Writers might not be on the same page about Swan Queen, romantic or platonic. I was all for sailing that ship when they were on Stakeout, but noped so hard out of that at Regina's three-episode tantrum about bringing Marian back. I needed the show to stop acting like that was legitimate, but what's aired is aired.

[MedievalGirl]

Things I think about while preparing my apple trees for winter. Does Regina still dote on her apple tree? Cutting off one branch, as Emma did, wouldn't have killed it. 

[Faemonic]

Things I think about while preparing my apple trees for winter. Does Regina still dote on her apple tree? Cutting off one branch, as Emma did, wouldn't have killed it. 

I hope so, but then again she's gotten oxcarts and boatloads of other concerns.

[InsertWordHere]

But would the tree have been fixed with the next curse? Or since Snow cast the curse, would she have purposely left the tree out of her curse? Hmm. Zelena brought green apples to Regina. Maybe she made it so only green apples can grow in Storybrooke. 

[Camera One]

Regina was being forced into marriage with Leopold, but when she sent her mother to Wonderland and was free to decide for herself, she went through with the marriage, I guess because she wanted to be queen or wanted to be in a position to get revenge on Snow.

 

Regina was about to leave Leopold's castle before the wedding, but then Rumple had a conversation with her about magic.  I don't understand why Regina didn't leave AND continued the study of magic with Rumple, or did Rumple ask her to go through with the marriage?  We now know she wanted magic because she was hoping to resurrect Daniel.

 

Rumpelstiltskin: Leaving, are we?

Evil Queen: That was always the plan.

Rumpelstiltskin: Before you go… Answer me this – how did it feel?

Evil Queen: I loved my mother.

Rumpelstiltskin: B-But that’s not what I asked, dearie. How did it feel to use magic?

Evil Queen: It doesn’t matter. I-I’ll never use it again.

Rumpelstiltskin: Why not?

Evil Queen: Because I loved it.

Rumpelstiltskin: You’ve discovered who you are. You could do so much now, if you let me show you how.

Evil Queen: Through magic?

Rumpelstiltskin: Through many things.

Evil Queen: And what do you get out of it?

Rumpelstiltskin: Someday, you’ll do something for me. Let me guide you.

Evil Queen: And I won’t become like her?

Rumpelstiltskin: That, dearie, is entirely up to you.

[KingOfHearts]

I watched that exact scene today. There was really nothing that hinted she would stay with Leopold in the whole episode. At the point in time, she was still in "Disney Princess mode", wanting more out of life. However, if the writers came up with some reasoning for her to mention, I probably would have bought it.

[KingOfHearts]

Lana, Adam and Eddy did a much better job acting out Redeemed!Regina in 2A. She wasn't demanding to get the shinies, she was actually trying to gain the trust of others, and she didn't whine about her happiness every five minutes. Her expressions and reactions were much more natural for her character. As implausible redemption as it was, watching it makes me wish the treatment stuck. I can pull for 2A Regina.

Edited January 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

I was pulling for 2A Regina, too. The efforts she made to make amends and keep her family only for that to be rebuffed, or the persecution she could have faced, could have gone on for the whole rest of the season and I would still have been rooting for her. She was a far more complex character once she's faced that she's lost, and why, and that she still has a goal (be a worthier parent to Henry,) and was figuring out how to get there. Not so much of that in the first season even as a motivated villain because, Daniel, really? And blame Snow? Really, really?

And season 2 had so much more potential with just hashing things out with Big Baelfire, he could have had issues with his dad, and with Emma, and...Henry's other mother. Shpow. Never happened. But the conflicts they did give us: Greg, and Tamara, and even Cora. What a snooze. Cora and Regina were crying in the car and I was like, "Two kickass sorceresses...reduced to this." Cora was summoning zombies a few episodes before then, that was awesome! And Regina was okay by me up until that point (even though the framing was so badly written for everyone.)

Edited January 6, 2016 by Faemonic

[KingOfHearts]

Regina wasn't even in every episode, either. She's entirely absent in 2x04 and 2x06. She got her big centrics in 2x02 and 2x05 and the rest of the time she's mostly a supporting player. The only moment in 2A where I felt the focus was wrongly pushed on her was in 2x09 when everyone is celebrating without her. So yeah, her redemption arc is strong but it doesn't take away from the rest of the cast. The screen time balancing helped a lot.

[Camera One]

I agree Regina's redemption arc would have been a good start in 2A.  Unfortunately, magic returning prevented a full opportunity for her to face the wrong she had done, since no one in town could retaliate.  But they could have capitalized on showing people in town just hating her guts but they never really did.  One misstep for me was having Regina immediately and gleefully trying to murder Charming right after Snow and Emma fell into the Hat.  Despite the Charmings trying to save her from the Wraith despite all she had done.  Clearly, A&E just couldn't resist bringing out The Evil Queen again.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

 

Clearly, A&E just couldn't resist bringing out The Evil Queen again.

 

Recurring theme of Once Upon a Time.

[Dianthus]

So I had this crazy idea for a Regina spin-off. They could call it Once Upon a Time in La-la Land. Regina decides to shake the dust of small town Storybrooke off her shoes and heads to Hollywood. Shortly after she arrives, she's approached by a producer to be the star of her own reality TV show (because she's bold and audacious, that's why). The first season is about her wearing fabulous clothes and finding the right personal assistant.

Instead of job interviews, the candidates are subjected to a series of hazing rituals. The contestants are narrowed down to three possibilities: the most obsequious suck-up, the pretty blonde with serious personal issues, and the boring, inoffensive single dad. You'll have to stay tuned to find out who the "winner" is.

Then the Evil Regals would have something to call their very own, and leave the rest of us in peace.

[Curio]

We were discussing Regina's magic in another thread and it occurred to me that her character simply can't work unless she has magic, which goes to show just how much the writers use that quality as a crutch for her character. What would happen if she lost her magic? She's not that interesting of a character unless she's threatening people with fireballs or walking around flashing jazz hands. What would her personality even be like if she was just normal? I have a feeling her character would fall to the wayside with Snow and Belle if she didn't have magic because her personality basically becomes reduced to the town's bitchy mayor, and that job title has no meaning anymore, so then she's just the town bitch. That's not interesting or three-dimensional, especially when she's supposed to be working to become less bitchy because of Robin.

[Camera One]

Now that everyone "accepts" her, and she has decided to be good, there is a danger that the Writers won't know what to do with her, other than have her be cantankerous and throw snarky remarks at others.  Of course, the other path is regression.  

[YaddaYadda]

Now that everyone "accepts" her, and she has decided to be good, there is a danger that the Writers won't know what to do with her, other than have her be cantankerous and throw snarky remarks at others.  Of course, the other path is regression.  

I think they already don't know what to do with her, which is why they keep bringing back EQ, even when she's not needed to advance a plot.

[Curio]

There's not much of a journey left to tell in Regina's story. She found her soulmate/true love, she's mothering three different kids, she's BFFs with the people she used to torture, she's mayor of Storybrooke, she still lives in her mansion, she doesn't have an antagonistic relationship with Henry's adoptive mother anymore, everyone has forgiven her of her past crimes (and if they don't forgive her, they immediately get killed off), she's one of the most powerful magicians around, she's been deemed a hero by everyone in town...

 

There really isn't much story left here. She's fulfilled her "I will get my happy ending" arc. Just about the only plot line she has going for her is the petty Zelena drama and the barren baby stuff, but that can't sustain an entire season. If I was a casual viewer who didn't know anything about the writing politics on this show, I'd assume Regina would eventually have about the same amount of screen time/importance as Snow next season. But because I do know the writing politics, I know that's not going to happen.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Curio

[KAOS Agent]

 

She found her soulmate/true love, she's mothering three different kids, she's BFFs with the people she used to torture, she's mayor of Storybrooke, she still lives in her mansion, she doesn't have an antagonistic relationship with Henry's adoptive mother anymore, everyone has forgiven her of her past crimes (and if they don't forgive her, they immediately get killed off), she's one of the most powerful magicians around, she's been deemed a hero by everyone in town...

 

And because there's no story for her to grow (largely because they've skipped over the juiciest and most interesting stories) that means she's about to lose something - most likely Robin. I suspect a full on reversion to the Evil Queen is coming. It would be best if Rumpel is the catalyst for whatever happens, thus setting up an Evil Queen/Charming family battle against the Dark One in Season 6.

[KingOfHearts]

I think Henry would have to be out of the picture for a full regression. If Robin dies, it'll be "Well at least I still have Henry!" Either Henry would have to die (not gonna happen) or reject her (unlikely). But then again, her regression in 4A was pretty steep despite Henry.

Edited February 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

We've already seen her moping and the fakeout reverting to Evil Queen in the 4A premiere, with Emma pleading with her across a closed door, and Henry pleading with her across a closed door.  Surely, we don't have to watch that all over again?  

 

Maybe Hook is saved from the Underworld and the person who takes his place ends up being Robin.  Then, A&E&J can go back to retread of the Regina vs. the tainted heroes next season.

[KingOfHearts]

 

We've already seen her moping and the fakeout reverting to Evil Queen in the 4A premiere, with Emma pleading with her across a closed door, and Henry pleading with her across a closed door.  Surely, we don't have to watch that all over again?

If Regina reverted, I would want to complete psycho S1 Evil Queen gone-bananas. No moping and doping Regina I-Almost-Killed-Marian Mills. She needs to go totally berserk. 

 

Maybe Snow and Charming will inadvertently cause Robin's death al a eggnappers.

Edited February 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm done with yo-yo-ing of the characters.  It's already annoying enough with Rumple.  I don't want to see the Evil Queen again.  Because you know they will throw in the crocodile tears soon enough, just like they did with Rumple.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm done with yo-yo-ing of the characters.  It's already annoying enough with Rumple.  I don't want to see the Evil Queen again.  Because you know they will throw in the crocodile tears soon enough, just like they did with Rumple.

They do the annoying yo-yoing as it is, tbh. Did you see her face when she was controlling Emma with the dagger? She's still a psychopath, it's just no one will admit it.

[Camera One]

LOL.  I'm not sure if that was the intention, though, from the Writers' perspective.  They really think Regina is just trying to help with tough love.

[KAOS Agent]

Regina's the one character on this show where you never really know how we're intended to interpret her. Regina ran around in 4B doing a lot of the same stuff Emma was doing in 5A but Regina was a "hero" and deserving of a happy ending and Emma was a "villain" who needed to be stopped. It's enough to make you question whether something is meaningful for the future or if it's just the Regina Exception Clause (that's where everything in a narrative fits a theme until you bring Regina into it and it all falls apart) That said, 5A contained one hell of a lot of Evil Queen moments for it to not mean anything. I just can't tell if it was meant for her 5B actions or whether it will be the finale/S6 story.

Edited February 18, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

I don't think A&E will regress Regina back to the Evil Queen. Other than Zelena drama, Regina's life does seem set. They'll just cook up some fresh trouble next season. Unless.... let's see... Regina will go on a pilgrimage of expiation where she attempts to set right the wrongs she has done, beginning with returning the hearts in her vault. 

 

Never gonna happen, I know...

[KingOfHearts]

Never gonna happen, I know...

What's funny is that I still see people (not even mentioning SQ) claiming poor Regina just can't get her happy ending. After everything that happened in 4B, she's still a victim and a martyr. I just can't believe that.

 

I don't think A&E will regress Regina back to the Evil Queen. Other than Zelena drama, Regina's life does seem set.

Yeah, it's not going to happen unless there's magical shenanigans involved. (e.g. she's possessed by a demon, somehow she loses all her memories of her redemption) Whatever happens, in the end she'll be 110% redeemed.

 

 

That said, 5A contained one hell of a lot of Evil Queen moments for it to not mean anything. I just can't tell if it was meant for her 5B actions or whether it will be the finale/S6 story.

Yeah, on any other show I would interpret 5A as foreshadowing of the Evil Queen. It's probably Lana's acting choices and A&E's permaboner for "delicious evil" that let those moments happen.

 

 

LOL.  I'm not sure if that was the intention, though, from the Writers' perspective.  They really think Regina is just trying to help with tough love.

Zelena made the same face when she was controlling Rumple and said, "Futility is so intoxicating - on others."

Edited February 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

I'd love to see magicless Regina who is not in control of other peoples lives. Like have her be temporarily magicless and one of her old enemies come to town and see how she deals with them. Without her magic she's pretty useless. She can't fight probably don't know how to use a sword, gun or bow and arrow (Why can't they give a good scene where Robin teaches her or something?)her only weapon is her mouth.

[Faemonic]

The weird thing about Regina's "gleeful controlling bully" face is that we know Lana could make a myriad of other acting choices. There are clips of her outside of this show where the character she plays isn't larger-than-life like the Evil Queen. Even in this show we've seen her transform from believable ingenue to evil scary femme fatale and back. She's a talented actress. When an event in the story could call for more nuance...where is it?

[Shanna Marie]

The writing for Regina really is bizarre. She's clearly some kind of writers' pet because she gets so many things handed to her, and yet she gets the worst, weakest writing. I think that's a lot of what makes her look like such a Mary Sue. Usually, a professional writer's pet character gets all the good stuff -- lots of struggle and drama and dilemmas. The beloved character who just gets everything she wants handed to her on a silver platter is more something you're likely to see with a self-insert in amateur fiction.

 

If the writers really liked writing for Regina, there was so much potential there. They could have made her redemption a huge struggle, with her having to repeatedly prove herself to her former victims before they were willing to believe she'd really changed and could be trusted. While she was an outsider, she'd have been more vulnerable to villains, perhaps more prone to taking risks and making sacrifices to prove herself. Or she might have been tempted and wavered in her commitment to being good, which would have made earning the trust of the others even more difficult. Instead, she's just redeemed by stopping her own evil plot, and she's a hero and there's little doubt, ever, of where she stands or what she might do. They could have done some interesting stuff with her attempts to rebuild her relationship with Henry after she realized she was treating him the way Cora used to treat her, but he just magically was totally in favor of her, with no real transition. Her getting into her first real relationship after Daniel could have had all sorts of great emotional stuff, with her being torn over loyalty and the fact that she ruined her own life trying to get revenge on Daniel's behalf, and would getting with someone else somehow negate all that? Usually, the writer's pet would be the center of a love triangle, with multiple men interested and her having to figure out which was the right one for the person she is now. But she's just handed a soul mate, and when there is conflict, it's easily resolved -- his believed-dead wife comes back? He chooses Regina, and it's not really his wife anyway. She doesn't have to actually do anything to win his love, and he doesn't have to actually do anything to win her love. They're just automatically in love.

 

In a way, it's almost like they don't like the character and/or the actress. Supposedly, Lana campaigned for all these things, but she got them in the worst possible way for an actress because they didn't give her anything interesting to play. It's like they just wanted to appease her and shut her up. "You want a love interest? Okay, here he is," but without an actual romance story in which they overcome conflicts and go through personal growth in order to be together, and then have to deal with external conflicts keeping them apart.

 

The other weird thing is that up to the middle of season 2, they were writing Regina in an interesting way, and then the switch suddenly flipped. Did something happen backstage? They talk about the writing for her as though they're proud of it, so are they so blinded by their adoration of the character that they don't realize what they're doing?

[Curio]

Regina ran around in 4B doing a lot of the same stuff Emma was doing in 5A but Regina was a "hero" and deserving of a happy ending and Emma was a "villain" who needed to be stopped. It's enough to make you question whether something is meaningful for the future or if it's just the Regina Exception Clause

 

I think it's just the Regina Exception Clause.

 

That said, 5A contained one hell of a lot of Evil Queen moments for it to not mean anything. I just can't tell if it was meant for her 5B actions or whether it will be the finale/S6 story.

 

You know it's bad when even the nicest, most positive, let's-throw-rainbows-and-sparkles-over-every-single-character bloggers said this about Regina's behavior in 5A, "It was puzzling to see [Regina] still refer to herself as the Evil Queen when threatening Zelena. Just as Robin and Henry bring out her best self, it’s clear Zelena still brings out her worst self. It’s going to be interesting to see her work through that dark part of herself that still rises to the surface around her sister." That means even the most neutral of episode recappers noticed Regina's hypocritical behavior, and if someone like that notices it, surely the general audience must notice it, too.

 

In 5A alone, we had Regina calling Emma's sacrifice stupid (which she never thanked Emma for...but Emma thanked Regina for controlling her with the dagger...and then apologized to Hook for doing the same thing), mocking Hook seconds after he lost his girlfriend, hypocritically calling herself the Evil Queen even though she yelled at Hook for calling her the same moniker, hypocritically telling Zelena it's absurd to paint herself as a victim with second-second chances, laughing and enjoying her ability to control Emma with the dagger, forcing Emma to do things she didn't want to do with the dagger, hypocritically yelling at Emma for tearing a heart out, faking being nice towards Hook once she knew he was a Dark One, and tapping into Dark Magic (because that's how the Apprentice explained how the wand works in 5.01) to conjure up a tornado and separate her sister from her baby. I think the writers believe this keeps Regina "grey," but to me, it comes off as hypocritical and bipolar. And we'll probably never see any repercussions to any of this in 5B.

 

They could have made her redemption a huge struggle, with her having to repeatedly prove herself to her former victims before they were willing to believe she'd really changed and could be trusted. While she was an outsider, she'd have been more vulnerable to villains, perhaps more prone to taking risks and making sacrifices to prove herself. Or she might have been tempted and wavered in her commitment to being good, which would have made earning the trust of the others even more difficult.

I think they attempted to do these things, but instead of a natural progression, it felt more like a lightswitch turning on. After the 2B finale, most of the main gang immediately trusted Regina in Neverland and didn't worry too much about her switching sides. There was one cat fight on the Jolly Roger between Snow and Regina, but that was quickly forgotten once Emma gave her "let's work together" speech. They attempted to show the town not trusting Regina in 3B when they didn't know who cast the curse yet, but that was basically a moot point because Emma decided to trust her anyways behind the scenes. 4B could have been a good opportunity to have Regina backslide a bit with the Queens of Darkness around, but that was a wasted opportunity. Sure, you had Emma running around like a chicken with its head cut off when Regina didn't call for one hour, but it was never made clear to the audience why she was freaking out. Had Emma said a line about being nervous because she didn't entirely trust Regina and thought she could backslide into villainy again, that's one thing. But the mantra wasn't that, it was, "Oh no, what about Regina's happy ending?!" The issue was never really about lack of trust. And then apparently, all it takes is doing a Guardians of the Galaxy standoff to a fury one night and the entire town loves and trusts you.

From Season 3 onward, most of the good guys have trusted Regina and have bent over backward to help her, even if it didn't make sense within the plot. (Meanwhile, Hook is still struggling for trust from several of the main characters.)

 

They talk about the writing for her as though they're proud of it, so are they so blinded by their adoration of the character that they don't realize what they're doing?

I think it's telling how Adam & Eddy talk about Regina in interviews. They constantly talk about how they created the show because they wanted to know "can the Evil Queen have her happy ending?" or "what would happen if the Evil Queen cast a curse?" There are far fewer quotes from them geeking out over wanting to create the show because "we were really excited about the concept of creating an original modern-day princess." So even before the show began, Regina was clearly a huge cornerstone in their planning and that's probably when they started falling in love with her before they even started casting an actor. As a writer, you should fall in love with your characters, but in TV-land, so much changes from the original concept to what's shown on screen that sometimes the original idea comes off entirely different than intended.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

So even before the show began, Regina was clearly a huge cornerstone in their planning and that's probably when they started falling in love with her before they even started casting an actor.

The weird thing, though, is that in season one they weren't afraid to show her as a villain. She had some sympathetic moments, but she was absolutely in the wrong. She was manipulating Henry, gaslighting him, and willing to do anything to stop Emma, even if it meant hurting Henry. She played the victim, but the show painted her as wrong for doing so. She was the one always hurting other people, and was such a narcissist that she still made it all about her own pain. This continued to some extent in the first part of season 2, where she realized she was as bad as Cora and wanted to change. She was in therapy. She swore off using magic because she was afraid of what it was doing to her. She was earnestly trying, and she still wasn't entirely trusted. She was even forced to confront her own past when she got Zombie Daniel and realized how horrified he would be about all the things she was doing that were supposedly in his name.

 

And then very abruptly the tone entirely changed. Midway through season two, the show started depicting Regina as a victim -- and not just a poor-me narcissist, but really a victim -- even while ramping up her evil, which made her look hypocritical. Instead of having learned anything about herself and realizing she was being like her mother, she fell right back under Cora's spell, and even after learning Cora's role in everything, she still seems to blame Snow. She's accepted as a hero without any apology. And at the same time, the writing for her is far less interesting. Even the arc that was built around her need to get a happy ending had to have three queens of darkness and a Rumple scheme thrown in because they've written Regina into such a corner that it's impossible to write an interesting story for her. She's not allowed to actually do anything wrong or for any wrong she does to be acknowledged as wrong. She's not allowed to have any real conflict with Henry or Robin. She has to be praised for everything she does. All of that is a kiss of death for a character. The only way to put her front and center is to have her onscreen with the action rotating around her but her not really doing anything but standing there and making snarky remarks.

[Rumsy4]

To play Devil's Advocate, Regina is a popular character. So, what A&E do seems to work for certain sections of the viewers. I think her confidence and power appeals to some people. Besides, the narrative constantly reinforces Regina's victimized attitude and seldom offers a counterpoint to Regina's hypocritical and toxic comments. Other characters are constantly made to apologize to her and thank her. She is given exclusive credit in several situations even when she has not deserved it. So, that's the message that sticks with some people. I confess I am astonished at how much some fans like her, and some of them are not SQ-shippers. This is a case where the maxim different strokes for different folks applies, I guess. 

[Curio]

To play Devil's Advocate, Regina is a popular character. So, what A&E do seems to work for certain sections of the viewers.

 

Yes, and Donald Trump is also leading the Republican race. Sometimes, people just like loud, abrasive, rich and powerful people with sketchy pasts who speak their minds and don't apologize for it. Luckily for us, Regina is just a fictional character who doesn't actually have a chance of becoming the most powerful person in the world...

[KingOfHearts]

Regina is a character many viewers can insert themselves as. She's snarky, gets to wear extravagant outfits, loved by all, a victim, and able to get all the shiny rewards for doing little. Subconsciously I believe some people want to be jerks while also getting rewarded for it. That's why they want her to have a happy ending - so they can feel like they can have one too.

Edited February 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I certainly enjoyed her Evil Queen theatrics until towards the end of Season 2. After that I got saturated with it, because the Victim Narrative was in full force. It's the dichotomy of portraying her simultaneously as both a Monster and a Woobie that falls flat to me. The writers constantly reset characters because they don't want to generate new kinds of conflict. They just want to retread the same old ground because they are afraid to change the formula. For example, Rumple as a character is more two-dimensional now, when he was one of the most interesting characters at the beginning of the series.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

I can't relate to Regina at all because I think she's flat out unstable. Every other minute she's threatening someone with her fireball. That's like George Zimmerman threatening every unarmed black person with a gun because they have a hoodie on.

[Camera One]

The simple explanation would be the Writers are working simultaneously on two things - making Regina a sympathetic victimized character, but also giving the "fun" snarky Evil Queen personae.  They don't see it as whiplash.  They flick those switches on and off within single episodes, and think they're hitting it out of the park.

[Curio]

The simple explanation would be the Writers are working simultaneously on two things - making Regina a sympathetic victimized character, but also giving the "fun" snarky Evil Queen personae.  They don't see it as whiplash.  They flick those switches on and off within single episodes, and think they're hitting it out of the park.

 

They see it as, "Oh, isn't this such a stark contrast? Look how far she's come!" I see it as, "Wait, why was she never properly punished for these crimes? Why do we want to root for her to have a super special happy ending? Why is she best friends with Snow?"

Edited February 19, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

"Wait, why was she never properly punished for these crimes? Why do we want to root for her to have a super special happy ending? Why is she best friends with Snow?"

Because deep inside she has a "good heart", and it's all those villains with bad hearts that doesn't deserve happy endings. (i.e. baddies whose names don't begin with R)

[Shanna Marie]

Regina is a character many viewers can insert themselves as. She's snarky, gets to wear extravagant outfits, loved by all, a victim, and able to get all the shiny rewards for doing little.

I was going to say that Regina being such a popular character is what makes me wonder why the writing for her is so weak and thin rather than the writings giving her lots of juicy, meaty material, but then there's this ^^. It's possible that a lot of her fans like her just getting handed things and would resent it if she actually suffered and struggled. On the other hand, maybe it would broaden her fan base if she got decent writing. I'm all for characters who overcome a bad start and turn themselves around if they actually work for it and pay for some of their past deeds. Regina is basically consequence-free, which makes it impossible for me to pull for her (at least Hook is missing a hand). They might annoy some of the scarier "stans," but they might lose fewer other viewers (and most of the people I know in real life who ever watched this show quit because they got fed up with Regina). On the other hand, although Regina is currently annoying, the fact that her writing is weak is pushing her to the background. She isn't all that involved with the core of the show, which makes it easy to fast forward through any Regina parts without missing the main plot. Even when the plot revolved around her quest for a happy ending, most of the scenes in which things that mattered happened didn't involve her. All she did was hang out drinking with the Queens of Darkness, send a smoke message, and then have her big epiphany. All the other characters did the heavy dramatic lifting.

[Camera One]

The writers don't see the writing for her as "weak and thin".  They think they're giving Regina the best of both worlds... a chance to shine as a snarky, courageous woman (in larger-than-life Evil Queen style), while also showing her more human vulnerable side, and shedding tears of victimhood.

[Rumsy4]

 

... a chance to shine as a snarky, courageous woman

 

Yes. Like the time she rejected the Sheriff of Nottingham because he was sexist. Regina is practically a feminist icon. Ask Graham.

 

There are many examples of bad or villainous characters having huge fanbases. I think it comes down to seeing villains like Regina as "underdogs" from a convoluted view point. I wouldn't mind Regina's self-victimization (she is deluded), if others were allowed to call her out and contradict her without negative consequences. The drive to make everyone "morally grey" results in a sloppy writing when different standards are applied to different characters. Sadly, A&E seem to think the best way to make Regina sympathetic is to take down the "heroes" a peg or two and have the grovel to Regina, rather than add more dimensions to Regina's character. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

Going back to a point I was trying to make earlier—would a magicless Regina fix some of her current writing issues? Would it finally give her perspective on things? Would she stop craving power so much and actually go about doing things the hard way? Or would it backfire and make her feel like even more of a victim than she already thinks she is because she had to lose her "special" quality?

[Rumsy4]

Or would it backfire and make her feel like even more of a victim than she already thinks she is because she had to lose her "special" quality?

 

This, for sure. Emma would probably have to sacrifice her magic to pacify her BFF's upset feelings.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

Going back to a point I was trying to make earlier—would a magicless Regina fix some of her current writing issues?

I believe the ship has already sailed on this one. That's really a plot for S2. I had an idea for a possible fanfic which follows a similar concept - After 2x09 (perhaps 2x10), Regina gives herself fake memories as Mayor Mills in order to rid herself of her Evil Queen past. 

[Shanna Marie]

The writers don't see the writing for her as "weak and thin".  They think they're giving Regina the best of both worlds... a chance to shine as a snarky, courageous woman (in larger-than-life Evil Queen style), while also showing her more human vulnerable side, and shedding tears of victimhood.

I would hope that professional writers aren't putting out stuff they see as weak and thin. I just find it odd that their apparently beloved character who has a huge and vocal fan base doesn't get to actually do much, especially lately. The other characters are doing all the heavy lifting. Just compare what happens in the seemingly centric arcs for both Regina and Emma.

 

In 4B, the arc supposedly centered on Regina, with the big story question being whether she'd find her happy ending. But in that arc, nothing much actually happened and she didn't do much. She tried to divert the Chernabog, but that ended up causing more drama for Emma. She interrogated Pinocchio. She infiltrated the Queens of Darkness, but mostly just was present while they got the good, snarky lines, and meanwhile the tension and drama about that were focused on the other characters who were worried about her. She interrogated August. The real drama and emotion in that arc were related more to the side plot with the eggbaby stuff and the question about whether Emma would turn dark. That gave meaty scenes to Emma with her parents and with Hook and was what led to the road trip to meet up with Lily, for more drama and emotion. Regina's arc was resolved with her remembering something and changing her mind.

 

In 5A, the Dark Swan arc, Emma took a very active role in finding a way out of the darkness. She did what it took to free Merlin, went on the quest to get the flame and had to confront Nimue, then had to light the flame. She had to deal with all the stuff with Hook. In the present, she had to get Hook's sword to revive Rumple, had to spur Rumple into becoming a hero to draw the sword, and she kidnapped Zelena twice. All the while, she was constantly battling the voices in her head and the temptation to give into darkness, had a lot of lengthy, meaty emotional or dramatic scenes with Hook, and her relationship with her family was tested. To resolve the arc, she had to make a huge sacrifice that caused her great emotional agony.

 

Or take the difference between the romantic relationships, which actually map together pretty well. When Robin and Regina were torn apart after getting together by his wife returning, there were a couple of sad scenes, and then he ended up choosing Regina. When she lost him again, seemingly for good, she ended up getting him back by making a phone call (after Emma tracked down the number) and going to New York, where she learned that his wife wasn't really his wife, so she got to have him, after all. Neither of them had to really make any sacrifices or fight for each other. When Emma and Hook were torn apart, it was because he was mortally wounded and she had to risk losing herself to darkness in order to make a desperate effort to save his life by making him a Dark One. She had to go to great lengths to try to save him from that, only to lose him again, seemingly for good, when she had to kill him. Now to get him back, she's going to the Underworld.

 

If you're looking at them as real people, or if you overidentify with the characters, then yeah, you want to be Regina because she's got it easy. But in terms of being a viewer watching a character you enjoy or an actor playing the character, Emma gets a far better deal because she gets all the angst, drama, tension, and conflict that make up a good story. If it weren't for the Regina Exception Field that warps the show's morality and the way the writers talk about her, you might look at the writing for the character and get the impression of "Here's a cookie, now shut up and go away."

 

Looking back at the seasons, this is something that's getting worse. They skipped over a lot of story potential for Regina in short-cutting her redemption and acceptance as a hero and her relationship with Henry, but she took a more active role in the story up to 3B. Then in 3B, while she still did stuff, the shortcuts were getting worse and worse. While Emma and Hook were dealing with her walls and fears and his deception and building to the climactic kiss after she learned he gave up everything for her, Regina basically went, "Hey, that tattoo means you're my soulmate, let's make out." They made Zelena her sister, but didn't really get into what that relationship might have meant to either of them (imagine how Zelena might have reacted if, instead of being hostile, Regina had greeted her with open arms and "I always wanted a sister!" -- it might at least have been enough to stun her into temporary silence). And then it got worse in season 4, when the Regina-centric arc was so weak that to get drama, they had to throw in the "will Emma go dark" plot and all the stuff that went with it, like the eggbaby and Cruella. It really is looking more and more like "here's a cookie, now shut up." Are they just playing nice in public with the Regina fans while being irked enough with them to just throw cookies while not wanting to write for her, or do they really so overidentify with Regina at this point that they can't bring themselves to cause her the kind of pain that makes for a good story?

[KingOfHearts]

 

I would hope that professional writers aren't putting out stuff they see as weak and thin. I just find it odd that their apparently beloved character who has a huge and vocal fan base doesn't get to actually do much, especially lately. The other characters are doing all the heavy lifting. Just compare what happens in the seemingly centric arcs for both Regina and Emma.

As a Regina fan (well, I've been a bigger one in the past), I concur. She's gotten screentime but it's not used for anything productive. Regina's actions with the dagger in 5A will provide no bearing for future events, Percival is long forgotten, she never lived up to her "town leader" role established in 5x02, and her Hook connection in 5x11 could have been given to another character. (They had to retcon a flashback from S2 in order to fit her in, yet her involvement really changes nothing in the long-run.) 4B was supposed to be her finest hour, yet she didn't get anything good there either.

 

 

When she lost him again, seemingly for good, she ended up getting him back by making a phone call (after Emma tracked down the number) and going to New York, where she learned that his wife wasn't really his wife, so she got to have him, after all. Neither of them had to really make any sacrifices or fight for each other.

When Regina and Robin meet in the bar, Robin smiles and says they can get back together again. That felt a little rushed to me for a guy who just found out his wife is dead after choosing her over his girlfriend, while also realizing there's a rape baby on the way. Getting Outlaw Queen back together felt more important than the angst happening at that moment. The reason is really that it was supposed to be a bad thing for Regina, not Robin. She'd have to share a piece of her life with her sister from then on. It's that kind of writing that makes me not ship the couple.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Getting Outlaw Queen back together felt more important than the angst happening at that moment. The reason is really that it was supposed to be a bad thing for Regina, not Robin.

 

To be fair, the writers have been honest from the start that the Robin/Marian/Regina thing was always only about Regina. They flat out said that in an interview prior to S4. I think on some level this works for people who really care about Regina. Her feelings and struggles such as they were largely ended up only being vaguely referenced in dialogue and with sad moments of Regina staring at a picture. If you identify with Regina, you create elaborate head canons on her thoughts and feelings and her struggle becomes very emotional for that viewer. If you're less interested in internal thoughts that cannot be shown or expressed on film and don't particularly relate to the character, this becomes tedious. Give me action! Give me an opposing character viewpoint! Show me that Robin has feelings too. Show me how Regina relates to Robin's feelings and how that coming together builds (or destroys) their relationship. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

To be fair, the writers have been honest from the start that the Robin/Marian/Regina thing was always only about Regina. They flat out said that in an interview prior to S4. I think on some level this works for people who really care about Regina. Her feelings and struggles such as they were largely ended up only being vaguely referenced in dialogue and with sad moments of Regina staring at a picture.

The whole Zelena baby fiasco didn't seem to affect Regina all that much even though we saw a lot of her being upset. She didn't get to see her boyfriend for a few weeks, but now she has him, Zelena is gone, and she gets free babysitting from the fairies. They tried to make it resonate more with her barrenness, but that's easily fixable with some magic contrivance. There was some angry reaction, but it was more like a speed bump than a struggle for her, imo.

 

4x20 and maybe 4x13 (where she apologized to Gepetto) were the only episodes in 4B that gave a decent glimpse in Regina's psyche. Everything else was just shallow drama that didn't lead anywhere.

Edited February 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

After watching 5A, I don't see the purpose of Zelena being pregnant.  Regina was irritated but that was pretty much it.  They didn't deal with how it was affecting Robin/Regina.  Maybe they just wanted Zelena as a foil for Regina to show her ruthless side.  Or they needed someone for Arthur to partner with, but why not a new character (eg. Morgana).  Clearly, they were bored with the pregnancy since they fast-tracked through it.