Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Rumsy4]

Robin might have some say in the matter, but Regina really shouldn't have anything to do with the decision. She doesn't get to decide what happens to Zelena's child. If Robin chooses to get some kind of custody of his child he can choose to let Regina serve as a stepparent, but Regina has no grounds whatsoever to make any decisions about that child.

 

Agree. But the writers seem unwilling to give Robin even a semblance of personality apart from Regina. So, of course Regina gets to call all the shots! It's all rather disturbing. 

[Dianthus]

Aren't most of Regina's lines unnecessary and insensitive? Otherwise, she'd get, like, 30 seconds of screen time/ep.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina getting killed off in the first episode of the second season? (As much as we may wish that happened nowadays given how Regina is on the show, it just wouldn't have made any sort of dramatic sense.  Regina isn't Greg and Tamara, after all, she deserves a better exit.)

 

It's a Catch 22. In order to have proper payoff, Regina would not have been able to prance around Storybrooke like the story needed her to. On the flip side, I actually think 2A handled her redemption better than any other arc for a couple of reasons. Firstly, she had proper motivation to change. Secondly, the characters around her were not forced to like her as they were later. She had to put in effort to restrain her magic and you could tell she was really struggling. She even went to Archie for counseling. The episode called The Doctor confronted her past head-on.

 

Henry was a good starter goal. If she's evil, she can't have him. However, this should have moved on to sympathy for others later. It quickly became getting her son through any means necessary, even if it meant killing everyone he knows, wiping his memory, or using a spell to make him think he loves her. The show never seemed to move past this until Robin came around, but all that did was shift her objective to another person. 2A started her off innocently enough, but the setup didn't follow through in 2B or even... 5A.

 

I'm not sure why the writers felt they needed to totally reverse all their work when Cora came to town. A switch seems to flip at the end of 2x09 when Rumple says, "Maybe if you're lucky, one day they'll invite you to dinner." It was then that Woegina was born.

Edited October 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

A switch seems to flip at the end of 2x09 when Rumple says, "Maybe if you're lucky, one day they'll invite you to dinner." It was then that Woegina was born.

That's the moment I consider the tipping point for the entire series. It would be impossible to truly give Regina her just desserts and keep her on the show. Her crimes are just too immense for anything other than execution or fatal self sacrifice. But up to that point, she did seem to be on a reasonable redemption arc. She was struggling with not using magic as her automatic go-to. She was kicked out of the mayor's office. Henry wasn't living with her.

 

But then that switch flipped, and Cora came to town. She started using magic, she started being the biggest victim ever because those meanies didn't believe in her innocence, never mind that their beliefs were totally in line with her past behavior, she moved back into the mayor's office and no one blinked an eye, she watched Cora murder Johanna in spite of Snow giving her what she wanted, and lest we forget, she planned to kill the entire town. And it wasn't just her current behavior. While they were trying to paint her as the biggest victim ever in the present, they doubled down on the Evil Queen past, showing us the village slaughtering and the fact that Snow could have executed her but showed mercy, and then there was the Kurt and Owen mess. So they made her past behavior much, much worse, while trying to show her in the present to be the sainted victim who was so horribly wronged, and then with one good deed, which was really only undoing her own bad deed when she got caught in her own trap, she was declared a hero and all was well with all her former victims. I think that broke the underlying foundation of the show.

[Camera One]

So they made her past behavior much, much worse

 

And they continued to do this as late as last season in "Mother", with the murder of the groom.  So clearly, to A&E, there was no switch, no problem.

[Mari]

I never expected them to kill off Regina or Rumple.  But, after all season 1, there should have been more attempt at retribution on behalf of not only David, Snow, Emma, and Henry, but on behalf of the villagers, as well.   

 

A lot of it could've been petty, minor scenes that simply demonstrated that Regina (and Rumple) were being--at times forcibly--rejected by pretty much everyone around them.  Would those have "earned" forgiveness?  No.  You can't really "earn" forgiveness.  It's gifted to you, because for the most part you can't undo hurts you've caused--you can only try and make amends.

 

 

 

Things that could've been done, that wouldn't necessarily have taken much time, but would have been better than what we got, even if they weren't enough for justice:

• Regina gets kicked out of her house.  It's confiscated by the mob, and they dole it out to the person/group of their choice.
• Regina is forced to give back the hearts in her crypt of evil.  (This could easily have happened to Rumple's treasure trove of other people's stuff, too.)
• Regina shows up to something wearing dirty, torn clothes, and we discover that someone stole her expensive wardrobe and burned it on her front lawn.
• When walking down the street, people forcibly pull their children away from her (and Rumple)
• Regina's tires get slashed regularly, and insults spray painted on her car.
• Refused service at places like the grocery store.
• Sued by some of her victims.
• Regina gets regular hate mail.
• Regina finds "Daniel would've been ashamed/hate you." things stapled to her front door regularly.
• One of her victims--a minor magic talent--curses her so that she hears her victims 24/7.
• Community service, picking ditches or something.
• The mob demands that Regina be stripped of her  memories, and be given a false, harmless identity.  That's apparently pretty easy--Regina did it in a matter of seconds with Henry and Emma.  Cora could've undone it when she got there, and it would've given Regina an almost decent motive to side with her.
• Regina gets put in the newly built stocks on alternate Thursdays, and the villagers can insult/throw fruit/take selfies to their hearts' content.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

Some of the villagers were probably scared of her after 2x02 because she got her magic back. That might explain why they weren't so gung-ho about vandalizing her property. However, I would think they'd be hatching a scheme to kill her once and for all. Maybe the dwarves wouldn't because of Snow, but there's got to be some disgruntled grays like Whale or Jefferson who would go on some grand revenge plot. (Jefferson actually almost did, but the show copped out on this with how Regina put it, "You just don't have it in you.") 

 

Although, I would have liked to see Regina hiding in her vault or secret wardrobe room sooner than Cricket Game. Especially before she got her magic back. Before 2x02, there wasn't any excuse for the villagers not to ransack her mansion. IMO, Regina needed to be defenseless and without magic a lot longer.

Edited October 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I think this latest episode "Dreamcatcher" says a lot about how A&E sees Regina.  They are intent on evening the playing field between her and Emma with all the parallels to Season 1.  Except this time, it's Emma who's manipulating and not Regina.  I know it was not as egregious as "Breaking Glass" since there wasn't as much one-sidedness, but in some ways, it was a more insidious attempt to knock Emma down a few pegs.

[Mari]

 IMO, Regina needed to be defenseless and without magic a lot longer.

Yes.  Absolutely.

 

The other way I think they messed up with Regina's comeuppance was in the villains that followed.  Neverland would have been ideal for making Regina face the damage she caused other people--and they were killing Pan at the end of it, anyway.  Zelena didn't have to be her sister.  Zelena could have been after Regina simply because Zelena was one of the lives Regina ruined, and Zelena didn't care who she damaged in the process of getting back at Regina.  Maleficent spent thirty years in dragon form because she got into it with Regina, and it's bygones?  What?

 

But out of the villains we've had--none of them have been after Regina because of something Regina did to them, or to someone they've loved.  Huh?  You have a character who's literally burned down and pillaged villages, and no one is out for revenge, except a couple of throwaway characters that are there simply for the Regina sympathy points when they try to kill her?  

 

I realize they want to keep the shiny objects moving, so that people don't fully process Regina's body count and remorse deficit, but they could have used that to have Regina develop some humanity and self-awareness, and gone the changed villain route when she tries to save people from her old victims.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mari

[Dianthus]

I've spent way too much time in front of one TV show or another and I have never, ever had as much sustained hatred for any other character on any other show. Plus, I tend to be the sort who digs in her heels when people are trying too hard to push me in a direction I don't want to go. A & E are currently working my last nerve with their Woegina bullshit.

Hook was an orphan. He watched the woman he loved get murdered while he was tied up and helpless to do anything about it, and he was maimed by the same a--hole who killed his lover. I'm glad he's moved on and found a new love, I'm glad he turned his back on vengeance, but he doesn't constantly bitch about it and we don't get constant reminders about how much he's suffered (unless you count his hook, which barely even slows him down). It isn't about who's suffered the most, but how each character is presented. Hook has a grace to him that Reggie, with her almost total lack of self-awareness) can't even fathom.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Zelena didn't have to be her sister.  Zelena could have been after Regina simply because Zelena was one of the lives Regina ruined, and Zelena didn't care who she damaged in the process of getting back at Regina.

Zelena being Regina's sister could have been a good angle to help fuel her jealousy. However, it's mooted by the fact Regina never did anything to her. Like you said, of all the people who should be seeking revenge, Zelena is very low on the totem pole. It's another instance where the blame that should be directed toward Cora is placed on the wrong person. Her quest for retribution is as misguided as the one against Snow was. While the sisterly bond could help supplement an already raging rivalry, it rarely comes into play. Regina doesn't give a crap that Zelena is her sister.

 

 

Maleficent spent thirty years in dragon form because she got into it with Regina, and it's bygones?  What?

Regina was terrified to even go down below the library because she knew Maleficent would burn her bacon on sight. Their relationship was one of the reasons I couldn't wait to see Maleficent's return. But like in 4A where they were a gazillion alternatives to the gauntlet, they chose a contrivance for Maleficent. Nevermind the countless characters she could be ticked at. Let's shoehorn Lily in somehow. But as far as Regina goes, their "friendship" needed more than a couple of aspirin scenes in the present.

 

 

I realize they want to keep the shiny objects moving, so that people don't fully process Regina's body count and remorse deficit, but they could have used that to have Regina develop some humanity and self-awareness, and gone the changed villain route when she tries to save people from her old victims.

It's sad they don't utilize this. There's a great source of angst there. I don't think viewers are against being sold her redemption. It's just that the writers, in Ariel's words, "always go about it the wrong way".

[orza]

I'm not sure why the writers felt they needed to totally reverse all their work when Cora came to town. A switch seems to flip at the end of 2x09 when Rumple says, "Maybe if you're lucky, one day they'll invite you to dinner." It was then that Woegina was born.

2-9 was the first episode produced after abc gave A&E their marching orders to kill the team princess in Fairytale land story arc and shift the focus of the show. There were also other events and decisions made around that time that were outside of A&E's control.

[Souris]

2-9 was the first episode produced after abc gave A&E their marching orders to kill the team princess in Fairytale land story arc and shift the focus of the show. There were also other events and decisions made around that time that were outside of A&E's control.

 

Do tell! I'm intrigued.

[Mathius]

Yes, please.  Where are your sources?  I want to hear more.

 

I do believe you, though, since I remember Megan Ory saying in an interview that they ended up bringing Emma and Snow back home earlier than originally planned (which makes me wonder how long the arc originally was meant to last.)

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mathius

[Dianthus]

More thoughts: the writers go on about Reggie being a Strong Female Character, but that's not what I see. What I see is some weird combination of Hot Mess and Mean Girl. She sneers at a man who's in pain over losing his Happy Ending to the Darkness, but pities herself because she never got to dance at a Royal Ball (yeah, right). That's not strong, that's pathetic.

[mjgchick]

Dammit Regina, you ruined what started off as a good Swan Queen scene by being a big douche. I liked the scene where she and Robin were holding Baby Greene then Rebecca made this sad face that made me feel bad for the Witch. :(

[Souris]

Regina keeps using the dagger to control Emma against her will. Real nice friend, that.

[Dianthus]

And looked so bloody gleeful doing it, too. That's NOT healthy, people.

[mjgchick]

Yeah they really make it hard to root for them as friends when they have Regina go all crazy. Then they have Regina and Co all see Emma as someone else instead of Emma. For someone who knows her you'd think she'd know her now as the Dark One.

[Curio]

I'm struggling to understand Regina's personality now that she's "good." It's like the writers still want her to be the sassy bitch, but now that she's on Team Hero, anything nasty she does or says should just be accepted because apparently she knows better than everyone. (Emma has now thanked Regina on two separate occasions for using the dagger to force Emma to do things outside her free will. Why is that kind of behavior being rewarded multiple times?) Maybe it's my interpretation of Lana's acting, but whenever she tries to act nice around certain characters, it seems unnatural. I notice it especially whenever Regina tries to be friendly with Emma, like in the scene where she tries to force Emma to tell her why she's afraid to let go of the darkness. Lana uses a higher pitch voice, clips her words abruptly, and doesn't sound like the normal Regina character, but more like I'm watching Lana talking to Jen the actress. I don't know, there's just something that has felt kind of forced lately, and I don't know if it's a purposeful acting choice on Lana's part or if I'm just way over analyzing things. Whatever it is, it breaks the 4th wall and takes me out of the scene.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

In the flashback, Snow did accuse her of being cruel when Regina controlled Emma with the Dagger, and in Storybrooke, Snow tells Regina she's not going to be allowed to hurt Emma.  But essentially, Regina is going to do what Regina is going to do.  As you said, Emma even thanked her afterward.

 

I haven't noticed anything off with the acting, but some of her lines really makes you go WTF.  Like how they wrote Regina saying that ONLY she can hurt her sister?  What?!   Is there no better way to express it?

 

I did notice Regina was often looking proudly? whenever Emma was doing magic in Camelot, though.  

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think Lana has been struggling a bit with how to portray this new Regina. When she's interacting with villains or flashing back to the Evil Queen or with Henry, she's the same, but the writing for Regina is so strange that it must be hard to know how to play her when she's interacting with her former enemies turned friends. How do you make those rude, snarky comments seem teasing? Or are they meant to be abrasive? When Regina does questionable things to her "friends" is she supposed to be aware that it's not okay or just think it's fine because she's helping them? It's interesting reading her interviews because she admitted in a recent one that she does feel the friendship between Regina & Emma is more one of forced proximity due to Henry rather than any real desire to be friends. Maybe the forced nature of it is intentional on Lana's part?

 

I also wonder if that moment at the dance where Robin/Regina were totally unable to do the dance was actually a blooper moment that the editor/director thought was cute and kept it in. It was just so out of character for Regina and it looked so much like Lana/Sean messing about that I don't know if you can even lay something like that on the actors.

[Rumsy4]

I too think that the "Team Hero" Regina portrayal seems to be off somehow. I think it's because Lana keeps defaulting to Evil Queen mode. One minute she threatens her sister as the Evil Queen. The next minute, she needs to be taught how to dance.

I think it's worse when it comes to Hero!Regina and Emma interactions. An example is when Dark Emma tells Regina that she would be thanking her after all was said and done. Regina replies "Why would I thank you?" with a disdainful curl of her lip. As though the very idea of Regina thanking someone like Dark Emma was so bizarre. I get it--Emma is behaving like a villain now. But that doesn't negate everything that's happened before. Especially when Regina likes to bring up the fact that she saved Snow's life when she was 10.

The scene by the well in Camelot where Regina is commanding Emma to break her walls had a strange vibe to it as well. I wondered for a minute if it was Zelena glamored to look like Regina. Lana's line deliveries were too clipped.

Regina also seems far too gleeful at the idea that she would be making the right choice by destroying Dark Swan. If she is going to enjoy hurting Emma, how is it possible to buy that friendship? You can't both care about someone's welfare while also enjoying the idea of controlling them or bringing them down. Is this ambiguity what A&E are going for or is it partly Lana's acting choices, or both? Hard to tell.

All of S4, JMo was the one who looked awkward in her scenes with Lana. This season that seems reversed. I think both actresses are struggling with how they portray this "epic" friendship between Emma and Regina.

[Camera One]

I agree she seemed a little too gleeful when she was heading to fight Dark Emma in Storybrooke near the end.  I think A&E wanted to show that family ultimately does come first, and despite their differences, Regina was willing to protect her sister... or something.  If Regina and Emma were friends, she should have been slightly more torn.

[YaddaYadda]

Or Regina would rather be the one to hurt, kill her sister than anyone else. Which is kind of messed up.

[Mathius]

I agree she seemed a little too gleeful when she was heading to fight Dark Emma in Storybrooke near the end

Seriously. She defaulted right back to crazy eyes, a sneerimg smirk and menacing line delivery about showing Emma "what real dark magic looks like". So much for Regina of the most powerful light magic, eh?

[mjgchick]

You guys noticed Merlin asks Emma how did it feel to defeat the darkness then this idiot asks her does it feel good to have dark magic? So does that mean Emma was lying to Regina because the real reason she didn't want to leave dark magic had to do with fear. Regina seriously knows nothing about Emma. Show please stop acting like it.

I did like seeing Lana's face lit up during Baby Greene's scene though.

Edited November 18, 2015 by mjgchick

[Mari]

I'm guessing Emma lied, and Regina was convincing herself that her own love of power and controlling others wasn't really that extreme.

 

Emma never looked like she was truly enjoying the power;  if anything, she looked more like she was being hunted down and running out of places to hide.  

[Rumsy4]

Did Regina really think she could defeat Dark One Emma with dark magic? Hasn't the show already established that she's not powerful enough to even defeat her sister using her dark magic?

[Camera One]

That was exactly what I was thinking during the episode.  One of the reasons why I couldn't buy the whole scenario.  The writers could have Regina say that since they know what was happening inside the house, and how Regina would never get the chance to "fight" Emma, plus Zelena had already escaped.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I'm midway through Season 1, and I have to say Regina is slightly more redeemable than I remember at that point. Oh she's still a scary monster who murders innocent people, but there's far less whitewashing. We see more of her insecurities and perhaps some reasoning (yeah, that existed then) behind her actions. But the show never lies and denies her status as a psychopath. Her brain is stuck on "get revenge on Snow" and "keep Henry and the curse", giving her a similar circumstance to Rumple. Nearly everything she does is with a goal in mind. (Raping Graham is largely the big exception.)

 

There are a few moments where I see brief flickers of care for Henry, but more like a possession than a son. She's definitely abusive to him, but at the same time I doubt there are zero feelings for him at all. Her harshness probably quadrupled after Emma came to town because of her defenses. She's terrified that all she has will be taken from her, so she tightens her grip. It doesn't justify her actions in any way, but it does give more substance and logic than "she's a villain".

 

From where I'm at now, I wouldn't call her sympathetic. But there's an interesting borderline between explaining a character's actions and justifying them. I can see why she's the way she is, but that doesn't mean she's not responsible for it. Mayor Mills offers a fine balance between crazy and comprehensible. I miss that kind of writing.

Edited November 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Absolutely. The problems with Regina started when they stopped treating her like a villain, and started treating her like a victim and/or a hero, without any significant humbling on her part, and without any reasonable amount of justice or remorse with regards to her victims.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Mari

[mjgchick]

I think its because she became a fan favorite plus Lana going to the writers and wanting to give Regina sympathy really did a number on the character. Regina is the writers favorite character but I'll always say its a disservice to the character because the writers are trying to make the actor and fans happy but they want to have their cake and eat it too by making her do disgusting things like murder her future true loves wife from another timeline.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the writers like Regina enough. I think their favorite character is the Evil Queen. This is the reason they can't seem to let that character go, and keep throwing it into flashbacks.

[Dianthus]

Campy EQ is a hoot, but going back to that well again and again really messes with the current day SB stuff. It just reminds us how cartoonishly awful she was, and accentuates her lack of a solid redemption.

[Camera One]

Flamboyant with a wild costume and a crazy muahahahaha laugh is one thing.  Making her kill an innocent groom and never refer to it again in the same episode where her epiphany is she's her own worst enemy?  Dumber than a box of hair, and I'm not talking about fictional people.

[Faemonic]

I miss S1 Mayor Mills, too. One big problem that I can see is pacing. They wanted the cliffhanger to Neverland to be there, end of the world and all, and maybe there were some filler episodes after Colin broke his leg, but I wouldn't actually have been bored with one-shot filler episodes that scattered crumbs of a plot. Let Regina continue to self-reflect and redeem herself...and the townspeople to still hold an exponential amoung of vitriol for that one person. Let Nealfire have more awkward moments with Emma and Henry and Goldstiltskin and Belle and wooden August (and Regina! She just barely got over learning to share Henry with his birth mother, what more Henry's birth father?) Let Charming and Snow have some trouble in paradise. They could have ended it on a full crop of magic beans and everyone all We Are Both and running the gamut between preferring Storybrooke and Enchanted Forest life, and I still would have watched the next season.

 

Maybe Pan still finds a way to kidnap Henry, maybe the beans still bring the Nevengers to Neverland and they don't take the whole town with them because Neverland is dangerous but maybe they're genetically engineered to be mode-locked, but I could have gone for Regina returning from Neverland (where she did most of the Henry-saving) and the townsfolk still hating on her, and maybe the Charmings become a little too comfortable with "Duh, of course we're beloved and you're not Regina your brand name is Evil Queen by now, and no we won't PR that away", Nealfire becomes too comfortable with, "I'm Henry's sperm donor; you're just the mom on his paperwork, I outrank you!" (I really wished that conversation would happen so Regina could force-choke him! Now it will never happen and I'll just have to settle for "This...Person...") And then Cora swoops in all, "Now my daughter's lost everything and I can pick up the pieces because she needs me." Then I'd believe Regina's redemption followed by her heel-face-turn, rather than people not talking to her at pot luck, and her therapist letting on that she's in therapy, and one hug from evil mom and she's evil again.

 

This show's really gotten into its groove with each half-season gimmick, now, so we're probably not going to return to the pacing of S1 ever again, and the stakes have got to be end-of-the-world-by-magic-bomb levels rather than harmony-of-newfound-mixed-family. Ironically, it's the fan favorite and writer's favorite character who I think suffers the most from that.

[Dianthus]

I just watched the latest sneak peek. I am now more than ever convinced that Regina "exists" only to prove that you don't have to have a dick to be one.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Dianthus

[KingOfHearts]

 

Personally, for at least some, it's likely a bit of both.  I wasn't a Regina fan in season 1, but she was an interesting adversary.

From those I've talked to, it's mostly her lack of comeuppance and the people she wronged most not getting the justice they deserved. Redeeming Regina isn't inherently a bad idea and that door was left open from S1 if you look hard enough. However, there was considerable build-up in 1B centered around her demise and humiliation. Over the course of 2A, Regina's turn to the light is handled swiftly and the disdain the citizens shared for her never amounted to any action. While her redemption was jarring, it was nothing compared to the horrors of 2B.

 

None of the main characters (besides Henry) were allowed to react to Regina until 2B. But by then, Cora had meddled and the ship had already sailed on S1 payoff. The anger they were experiencing was portrayed as unwarranted because it was directed toward false positives. There were reasons like the murder framing, her status as "villain", and the fact she uses magic. The focus was on unfair accusations, rather than on the elephants in the room the audience had been waiting for. Slammed in our faces was every area that appeared to be sympathetic, and her evil deeds (even the current ones) were heavily downplayed.

 

Flashbacks like 2x10, 2x17 and 2x20 were all instances where Regina did something terrible, but we see her POV instead of her victims'. That was a stark change from what the audience had grown accustomed to. Snow and Charming get the opportunity to end her reign of terror through execution. What's it about? The fact she "deserves" a second chance. Regina attempts to force a kid to live with her and kills his father. What's it really about? Regina's loneliness and the ungratefulness of her victims. Regina slaughters an entire village and uses a shapeshifting spell to find Snow's whereabouts in order to kill her. What's it really about? Poor Regina being called names for being a misunderstood ruler. The list goes on.

 

Granted, Snowing do get some focus during the 2x10 flashbacks. But I think 2x17 and 2x20 would have been much, much better if they didn't include the whitewashing and lingering shots of Regina's tears. I'd dare say they would have fueled her redemption track productively if they weren't against the backdrop of the crap she was pulling in the present. But we are where we are, and Regina is assassinated as a character. The audience is never allowed to judge for themselves if she deserves a redemption or not. It's shoved down our throats, which feels insulting.

 

If Regina was flip-flopping and the other characters called her out on it, it would have been 90% less insufferable. If Snow could yell at her and remind of her the terrible atrocities committed, that would make it more worth it. If Emma was able to put the pieces together that Regina murdered Graham, the coherency wouldn't been so absent. Maybe Charming should have broke the silence on the fact she forced him to sleep with another woman and even attempted to seduce him herself. There are a lot of skeletons in that woman's closet, but at least bring out a few to say you addressed she was a bad person. You can't move on without confronting your past.

 

Viewers were cheating into thinking she was the antagonist. It's almost like A&E guilt-tripped them for having the audacity to second-guess her motives. Not only are the characters made to feel awful for distrusting her, but the audience members are as well. Many of us saw through the smoke and mirrors and that is why many left.

Edited November 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Yes.  Yes to all of your post, KingOfHearts.

 

The shift in the writers' room attitude happened between season 1 and season 2.  I've always wondered what exactly caused it--because while I've seen posts saying Parilla lobbied for changes (and I believe I've seen some interview comments from her that confirm it.), and I know she has a very vocal and enthusiastic fanbase--is that truly enough to cause such a radical change in how A & E and the rest of the writing staff perceived the character?

 

And how much of Regina's attitude is writing choices, and how much of it is acting choices?  Because a different take on Regina's lines--more self-doubt, or a touch of self-deprecation or self-loathing in the delivery of some lines could have made a big difference, too.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

I would put the vast majority of the responsibility on the writing.  It wouldn't have mattered how much self deprecation the actress put into the acting if the writing said she was going to strangle Charming to death after he tried to save her from the Wraith AND lost the two people he loved the most.  And this was at the start of an arc where they were trying to show Regina working hard to resist magic for Henry's sake.  Ditto for the "fakeout" she was going full out evil in the 3A premiere and then deciding she wouldn't.  The viewer, as well as the actor, would be getting whiplash from this type of writing.

 

Based on what A&E says and more how they say it, I don't think their attitudes changed per se.  I think all reins were let loose when the show became a success, and they were allowed to do what they had truly wanted to do from the beginning.  They didn't want to write Prince Charming, they didn't care about Snow White, etc.  And now they didn't really have to write for them.  Cue the shiny toys, cue the Regina show, cue painting the heroes as the ones at fault for pretty much everything.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Camera One

[Faemonic]

The shift in the writers' room attitude happened between season 1 and season 2.  I've always wondered what exactly caused it--because while I've seen posts saying Parilla lobbied for changes (and I believe I've seen some interview comments from her that confirm it.), and I know she has a very vocal and enthusiastic fanbase--is that truly enough to cause such a radical change in how A & E and the rest of the writing staff perceived the character?

There was a Secrets of Storybrooke featurette that I watched where A&E were talking about the "what if" that inspired them. It was "How frustrating must it have been for the Evil Queen to watch Snow White get her happy ending?" It wasn't a plot springboard. It was an emotional connection to the archetype-character as a person. And there are lots of creators who take an interest in the antagonist, but who know to position the antagonist as an antagonist no matter how cool they are to write. And perhaps for season one A&E could wrap up the story with a confirmation that the Evil Queen really is the antagonist, call it a narrative instinct. There was, after all, a chance that the network wouldn't even let them finish that first season.

 

When they had to tapdance for the season renewal, I'm guessing that the showrunners' favoritism went unchecked, especially with the fan-creator veil being so thin, and networks with an ear out for what keeps the ratings up, but above all the inclination was one that they always had.

[Dianthus]

Having watched that other sneak peek, I can only hope against hope that the Hubris thing will be addressed w here Regina is concerned. I didn't think I could hate her more than I already did, and then they gave us this. Hurling recriminations and insults at Emma (who's saved her worthless hide multiple times now [why, Emma, why?!?]) is the exact opposite of helpful. Naturally, she again accuses Emma of not considering the consequences of her actions, when Regina spared no thought whatsoever to the possible consequences of Operation Dumbass.

[Rumsy4]

Were the writers going for irony here?

Regina: The only reason you have that baby is because you killed Marian and you deceived Robin in the most vile way imaginable.

The only reason Regina is with Robin and Roland because she was the original person to kill Marian.

What Zelena did to Robin, Regina did to Graham for 30+ years (except for the baby part).

Calling out Zelena's specific sins is in such stark contrast to how many of Regina's sins have never been addressed or even revealed.

I liked that Regina was willing to give Zelena another chance, but her continued glee over her murderous past is disturbing. I don't know if that was Lana's acting choice or what.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mari]

I think I have to go with "writing and acting" choice.

 

Think about how many scenes there've been where Regina's mentioned her past with zest and zeal.  If it weren't a show decision, at some point they would have told Parilla to try a take that was less . . . dripping with relish.

 

Since this is never addressed, really, and we're continually told how heroic and changed Regina is, I'm going to assume they don't see or understand the dissonance created when Regina is smugly telling her sister off for doing things Regina'd done for years--and from Regina's storytelling, is still taking joy in, even if she's stopped doing it.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mari

[KAOS Agent]

I was reading somewhere where they speculated that Regina is struggling with missing the Darkness. She's talked an awful lot this season about her terrible deeds - often with seeming pride in them - and said several times to Emma that she understands the lure of power and how good it feels. They thought that scene where she used the dagger on Emma trying to get her to explain what was holding her back from giving up the Darkness was Regina projecting and trying to get Emma to tell her why Regina didn't want to let go of it.

I don't know how much to read into things on this show especially with regards to Regina, but I do think it fits with how Regina has been acting and how often they have her mention with relish having been the powerful Evil Queen.

[Dianthus]

According to her, this bitchy, self-absorbed hypocrite is Regina's "Best Self." She was gonna put the whammy on Zelena until Robin stopped her. Chew on that!

[Mari]

Well, from a certain perspective, I suppose it could seem that way.

 

She's not actively going out and hurting people.  She helps people when she thinks she should, she's in a relationship she's happy with--but he's definitely not in control, she is, and she absolutely doesn't define herself by her relationship with him, but by her own accomplishments as the Queen.  She has a child and one (possibly two--we haven't seen Roland, so we don't know who's in charge of him) stepchild that she's the primary decision maker for, she's got great clothes, she's comfortable saying whatever she wants, without bowing to any sort of -archy  or -ism that might demand her conformity. . . 

[KingOfHearts]

and said several times to Emma that she understands the lure of power and how good it feel

 

Regina's role in the Dark Swan plot was totally mishandled if you take into consideration the type of friendship she's supposed to have with Emma. In 4x05, the basis for their understanding of each other came down to magic. You'd think Regina would get what Emma's going through here. The temptation of power and the lure of darkness she knows of so well should give some insight. But all I see is her yelling at Emma, saying she's being stupid, and standing on a moral high-ground. The one person who shouldn't be judging her against the Hero's Code is shouting with the rest of them.

 

Hypocrisy isn't OOC for her, but the writers just counter their own writing with that. It's against what she's framed as with Emma and what the dialogue has been saying. She hasn't leveled with her at all.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

At the end it wasn't even about the power Emma was afraid of. It was her thinking of having a happy ending. I forgot the name of what Emma has but its for those people who are afraid of ever being happy. Regina doesn't know Emma at all and I need the show to stop acting like she does.

I am intrigued by Regina missing the lure of power. Like Hook she's been a love sick teenager trying to do good because Snow White believes she's a good person. Maybe this will be a better redemption storyline for her?