Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[stealinghome]

Really it's not.  Regina is nothing if not petty.

I agree that Regina's always been petty (and self-pitying), but I still think the Regina of S1 would've bitchslapped the hell out of S2's Woegina or 3B whining-about-men Regina. Regina was just so much more fun when she wasn't sobbing her eyes out over a hangnail every other episode.

[Mari]

I agree that Regina's always been petty (and self-pitying), but I still think the Regina of S1 would've bitchslapped the hell out of S2's Woegina or 3B whining-about-men Regina. Regina was just so much more fun when she wasn't sobbing her eyes out over a hangnail every other episode.

I have to add my agreement to this.

 

It isn't that Regina is an petty, unrepentant villain with sociopathic tendencies that makes her the character I hate the most to watch.  (Even more than Belle, whose actress might be a lovely person but who is simply not very good and has an annoying, whiny voice, to boot.).  It's not even--at least entirely--that Regina feels so very bad for herself whenever she doesn't get exactly the response she wants at the time she wants it.

 

It's that she does all that, but is never called on it.  It's never highlighted in the show for derision or mockery or disapproval.  Based on the all of the storytelling choices the show makes, we're supposed to agree with her.

 

Season 1 Regina might've been a villain, but she was an entertaining one with some gravitas. 

 

Current Regina?  Not so much. 

[KingOfHearts]

I concur with everything Mari said. It sums up my thoughts exactly.

 

I'd like to add that screentime is a large part of it as well. When Regina gets upset over superficial stuff, there is zero character development. When we see her killing people back in EF, that doesn't move anything forward. Yet with these things in mind, the writers still devote more time to them than almost anything else on the show. What's more, characters that need development, like Emma or Rumple, have their screentime squandered in exchange for more Evil Queen scenes. If her redemption is what they're going for, then there is no sense in showing more wrong things Regina has done.

 

The writers put in many lines claiming how "redeemed" Regina is, but then they write entire episodes about how bad she was/is.

 

"You can't have everything, dearie!" 

Edited September 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

I just noticed something odd about Regina's character (among the million other things). When Regina does something evil, all the characters just pat her head and say, "It's all in the past." and forget about it. But if Regina does something mildly nice, like bring lasagna or get Henry his lunchbox, she gets all sorts of flack. This isn't a constant rule, but I've seen it ring true many times on the show.

 

In this very twisted way, the writers are bending it so we feel bad for her through the reactions of the characters. Every time Regina shows a little growth or kindness, she gets beat over the head with a stick. Then whenever she does something evil, like kill Graham, she gets hugs and kisses. I'm just thinking, what the heck?

I find your post interesting. I guess I missed some episodes. Who gave her "hugs and kisses" for killing Graham?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Who gave her "hugs and kisses" for killing Graham?

 

She didn't get them for killing Graham, but she got them despite killing Graham. At the time, no one (except Henry) suspected her of killing him. She was still admired by Kathryn, David, Sidney, and Dr. Whale, to name a few. Kathryn was her "dear friend" at the time, and in the literal sense of "hugs and kisses", was still giving her hugs. She got zero punishment for murdering Graham.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

She didn't get them for killing Graham, but she got them despite killing Graham. At the time, no one (except Henry) suspected her of killing him. She was still admired by Kathryn, David, Sidney, and Dr. Whale, to name a few. Kathryn was her "dear friend" at the time, and in the literal sense of "hugs and kisses", was still giving her hugs. She got zero punishment for murdering Graham.

So people who had no idea she killed Graham should have held her accountable?

Regina should be accountable for the people she killed. Regina isn't the only character singled out.

I imagine Snow should have been held accountable for killing Cora. Killian should have been held accountable for his murders. Rumple should have been held accountable for all the deaths he delivered in his hundreds of years as the 'dark one', but ONCE doesn't seem big on holding any character accountable for their actions.

Edited September 10, 2014 by FavFable

[KingOfHearts]

 

So people who had no idea she killed Graham should have held her accountable?

Not at the time, but after the curse broke, they should have. Especially Emma - I don't buy it that she still doesn't believe Regina crushed his heart. My point is, Regina doesn't get consequences for her bad actions. Instead she gets comfort from the very people she hurts!

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

So people who had no idea she killed Graham should have held her accountable?

Regina should be accountable for the people she killed. Regina isn't the only character singled out.

I imagine Snow should have been held accountable for killing Cora. Killian should have been held accountable for his murders. Rumple should have been held accountable for all the deaths he delivered in his hundreds of years as the 'dark one', but ONCE doesn't seem big on holding any character accountable for their actions.

True.  Lots of people should be held accountable.  I don't personally think Snow should; self-defense of yourself and other people is acceptable, and, well, Cora was chock full of murderous plans.

 

However, the difference for many of us:

 

Regina is the only character who is gleefully murdering people in one scene, and then with a fast enough transition to give you whiplash, being hailed as a hero.   Apart from Snow, the other characters cited are not hailed as heroes.

 

Regina gets singled out because she kills people, loves it, takes pleasure in it, feels no remorse for it, and is then hailed as a hero for not killing one or two people.

 

That's creepy.  And gross.  Don't forget gross.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

Even when you put morals aside, there are consequences to hurting or killing people. People get angry when you hurt them or murder their loved ones - it's logical and natural. When victims don't show any feelings against Regina, it's not organic or feasible. They're like smiling robots in this way. Characters forget her actions after just one episode, if that.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Not to mention that the show has called out Snow killing Cora as "the easy way" and "murder" and has called Snow a "murderer" (all while neglecting that Regina herself had sent Hook to kill Cora pre-Curse). Yet Regina kills Graham or Owen's father or tries to kill Henry's entire family minus herself and *crickets* from the narrative.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FavFable]

Not at the time, but after the curse broke, they should have. Especially Emma - I don't buy it that she still doesn't believe Regina crushed his heart. My point is, Regina doesn't get consequences for her bad actions. Instead she gets comfort from the very people she hurts!

And who does? Did Rumple pay for all the people he murdered? Did Cora? Did Snow? Did Killian?

 

That is my point. No one pays for the people they hurt.

Even when you put morals aside, there are consequences to hurting or killing people. People get angry when you hurt them or murder their loved ones - it's logical and natural. When victims don't show any feelings against Regina, it's not organic or feasible. They're like smiling robots in this way. Characters forget her actions after just one episode, if that.

Greg / Owen seemed to have no problem showing his feelings, and I believe Regina suffered consequences for killing his father.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And who does? Did Rumple pay for all the people he murdered? Did Cora? Did Snow? Did Killian?

 

I think everyone you've mentioned has paid a lot more than Regina has. Rumple died, then his son died. Cora got murdered. Snow has paid for using that magical candle with her massive guilt breakdown that lasted weeks. Killian's love got killed. What's different about Regina is anything she's paid (except her father), she's gotten back. Her price for ripping the curse, for example, was Henry, and one year later he's back.

 

 

Greg / Owen seemed to have no problem showing his feelings, and I believe Regina suffered consequences for killing his father.

 

I was referring mostly to the regulars and main cast members. The people who do show anger about Regina, are treated as bad people or even villains. With Greg, Regina's "price" was short-lived. She was saved before anything permanent could happen, and she didn't have to do anything.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

"I think everyone you've mentioned has paid a lot more than Regina has. Rumple died, then his son died. Cora got murdered. Snow has paid for using that magical candle with her massive guilt breakdown that lasted weeks. Killian's love got killed. What's different about Regina is anything she's paid (except her father), she's gotten back. Her price for ripping the curse, for example, was Henry, and one year later he's back."

 

 

So Regina got Daniel back? No.

She got all the years back that she lost when she was forced to marry that creepy old man? No.

Did she get her Mother back? No.

How about her sister? No.

She got her soulmate? No. Emma dragged his dead wife back.

Did she get her son back? As far as I can see Henry still lives with the mother that wanted nothing to do with him for 10 years.

 

Greg was a villain because he was working for Peter Pan, not because he did anything to Regina.

 

Given the logic that 300 years of murder = 1 death, then Regina paid for her 30 years of murder in the mines.

 

Honestly, the only one that got what they wanted was Rumple.  He created and manipulated the curse into existence. His punishment. He got his son back. He wanted Belle, so he killed her fiancé, his punishment, she is now his wife. I am not seeing how Rumple paid for anything.

Edited September 10, 2014 by FavFable

[KAOS Agent]

I think the problem these writers have with Regina is much like the one they have with Snowing. There isn't any more story left to tell for them. We've seen Regina's story with her mother, father, sister, husband, step-daughter, son, first love and sex-slave/lover. There's nothing else there to cover. Which often leaves us with Snowing v Regina in the past ad nauseum - two birds, one stone in terms of a story for characters whose backstories are very, very well documented. And in the present, it's Regina vs the mean, mean people of Storybrooke. Thus, the storyline ends up being Regina feels angry, turns to evil, someone (usually Henry) intervenes and she changes her mind or is forced into a different action due to circumstances. Lather, rinse, repeat. In Season 2 this present day scenario happened in "We Are Both", "Queen of Hearts", "Welcome to Storybrooke", "The Evil Queen" and "And Straight on 'til Morning". And in a more extended arc from "The Cricket Game" to "The Miller's Daughter". And now that I've typed out that list of episodes where Regina does the same thing over and over and over again, I think I've pegged where I just got sick of the Regina character. 

 

At least in Season 3, it seemed we were treated to a different Regina. One who seemed to start to get it and was kind of moving on from victim blaming, whiny, woe is me Regina. It was nice, especially in 3A. She was starting to win me over again. They had an opportunity to create a nice little storyline going forward for her with repairing the relationship with her son and having a blossoming romance with Robin Hood all while fighting the latest threat to the town. Instead, she True Love Kissed her son skipping over all of the pesky abuse and mind-wiping and poisoning and family killing and free will stealing plans she had for him and insta-love via pixie dust negated any uncertainty in terms of a romantic relationship. Were they just trying to take away anything interesting for her character? Because the Marian reveal and her instant reaction of victim blaming sends her character right back into Season 2 territory. We've been there, done that. Let's move on, shall we? It's Season 4. Pick grey or evil and stick with it for her, but no more of the endless cycle of Regina is unhappy - Evil will fix it - Other character/event intervenes - Abandon evil plans - All is forgiven/ignored.  

 

Will the Evil Queen choose evil or stay on the lighter side? Her choice this time really counts. We mean it. Tune in next Sunday and the Sunday after that and the Sunday after that and the Sunday after that and the Sunday after that to find out which time we're talking about. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[stealinghome]

Here's the real difference between Rumpel and Regina: the show doesn't act like Rumpel is a 1) a hero despite the fact that he has never indicated remorse for his extremely evil actions, 2) the biggest victim ever when there are 38463045654 people on the show who have been more victimized, 3) doesn't whitewash his crimes or try to pretend they didn't happen because it's inconvenient for the show to deal with them (this includes not letting characters have realistic and appropriate reactions to his crimes), and 4) hasn't sacrificed a number of characters on his altar to try to make him look better.

Rumpel is still shady as fuck, but the show treats him as if he is shady as fuck. The show doesn't prance around as if Rumpel is some magnanimous saint who should be canonized for a quarter of the time rising to "decent fucking human being" status. It doesn't act like he deserves a gold star for every day he doesn't murder someone. It acknowledges that he's still pretty f'ing evil, even if he has moments of doing "the right thing." And he's self-aware about the fact that he's a terrible person. No Regrets Regina has expressed literally no remorse for her evil actions and thus far has only done one or two "good" things that aren't directly for her or Henry's benefit (and I do give her credit for being able to do things for Henry's benefit now, that truly is growth, because certainly in S1 she was never acting in his best interests), yet the show pretends she is the awesomest awesome to ever awesome and the show's biggest victim and falls all over itself to give her everything she ever wanted when she hasn't earned it. She still doesn't get that she's not the world's biggest victim--by and large she still lives in some dream world where everything she's done has been totally justified and proportionate--and she has literally no self-awareness (whining to Snow about losing a child when Snow has twice lost a child, one time directly at Regina's hands, comes to mind). And this would be fine if the show would acknowledge that Regina's viewpoint is not correct, but it won't. The show itself goes along with the fiction that she's the biggest victim who ever victimed and no one's pain can be equal to Regina's pain, etc etc etc. And it tries to pretend like it's given her an authentic redemption story when she still hasn't expressed any remorse for anything she's done, apologized to any of her victims and admitted that she was wrong, tried to atone for her evil, or generally had any sustained moments of insight into herself. She's like 1% on the road to redemption, but the show acts like she's 150% there. At this point the problem isn't the Regina character herself, per se, but the way the narrative treats her.

And it's frustrating, because as others have said, there are moments when Regina's redemption seems to be gaining traction. I have a few quibbles with 3A, but I thought it did a pretty good job on the whole of giving Regina some self-awareness and emotional maturity...and then "No Regrets Regina" and the way she acted in 3x10 destroyed it all. I liked Regina in 3x11 more than I ever have, and I was hopeful that maybe 3B would get her back on track--and while Bleeding Through annoys the shit out of me in terms of painting Eva like she's some terrible person for telling Leopold that Cora was going to marry him under false pretenses and lie about the child that wasn't his, I actually do like, on the whole, how they handled Regina and Snow's relationship in 3B (once I get over the illogicality of Snow ever talking to Regina, given all Regina has put her through)--but then her ridiculous insta-romance with Robin Hood, the show terming her heart "resilient" (seriously, is there anything more laughable on this show than claiming that Regina of all people has a resilient heart?), and in back-to-back episodes her ability to True Love's Kiss Henry without a heart* and then use The Most Powerful Light Magic Ever (despite never having expressed an ounce of remorse/recognition that she's wrong/desire to atone/etc) just made me roll my eyes and disconnect from her story all over again, because it was ridiculously artificial and unearned and way too much too quickly. She hasn't earned any of that, so the narrative giving it to her just makes me resent her even more. And even my mom, who likes Regina far more than I do, had to admit at the end of this season that she's obviously the writers' pet and it shows in the story.

*=and for the record, I'd be bitching about this no matter which character did it. Being able to True Love's Kiss someone when you don't have a heart, and by definition can't feel the full range of your emotions, is a ridiculous idea that destroys the show's internal logic. But I think it's pretty telling about the attitude toward Regina that they gave her this Super Special Power despite the fact that it breaks all their rules.

I think the problem these writers have with Regina is much like the one they have with Snowing. There isn't any more story left to tell for them.

But what's amazing about this is that they're only out of story for Regina *because they insisted on compressing 4-5 seasons' worth of story into one season.* that's what just boggles my mind. Like, did these writers never see Xena? (I mean, obvs not, because Xena was actually, gasp, remorseful for all she did, and dedicated the rest of her life to making up for it.) Do they not understand that if you have a character who is ostensibly working toward redemption, you can't give them redemption in a season, because then you're out of story for that person?

Ironically, it's their massive crush on Regina that just destroys the character.

Edited September 10, 2014 by stealinghome

[FabulousTater]

So Regina got Daniel back? No.

She got all the years back that she lost when she was forced to marry that creepy old man? No.

Did she get her Mother back? No.

How about her sister? No.

She got her soulmate? No. Emma dragged his dead wife back.

Did she get her son back? As far as I can see Henry still lives with the mother that wanted nothing to do with him for 10 years.

[...]

I find that there are many, many, many problems with the list above. But I'm gonna stick to responding to the highlights. Notably that two of those people listed above as people that Regina "won't get back" are two people Regina actively tried to kill. So basically, the issue is what -- it's sad that Regina didn't get to kill them first? Would Cora be on this list if Hook had successfully killed Cora like Regina hired him to in the first place? But what, because Snow successfully killed Cora (in self defense!) it's all boo-hoo, poor Regina? That's certainly a big slice of hypocrisy bullshit pie Regina is serving up there. Regina thought she had killed her own mother and was all "Sorry I had to have you killed, Mom, but you had to go 'cause I needs to get my revenge on!" But now that it was someone else's doing, Regina is all sad face about it and everyone should feel sorry for her. Pfft, whatever Woegina. Sing it to Satan.

 

As for the "sister" she won't get back, well, Regina and Zelena were trying to kill each other for 99% of 3B and at the end, when Zelena was incarcerated, Regina basically told Zelena to straighten herself out or she would kill her. How sad that Regina won't get her back now 'cause why? She won't be the one that got to kill her???  Rubbish. Regina and Zelena were nothing more than enemies and they were actually trying to destroy each other. Regina feels the loss of Zelena no more than she feels the loss of the ant she stepped on and killed while crossing the street in Storybrooke.

 

And finally, this item:

She got her soulmate? No. Emma dragged his dead wife back.

Regina murdered Marian in the original timeline*. Regina captured Marian, paraded her in front of a village, terrorizing them all (and all the while mocking Marian's screams for help), then threw Marian in a dungeon where she was later executed by Regina. Marian's blood was on Regina's hands. Now, in the new timeline, Emma saves Marian (she basically wipes Regina's hands clean of Marian's murder), but apparently that's not a good thing. No, it's a travesty of epic proportions because the woman that Regina terrorized and murdered didn't stay dead so that Regina could shack up with her victim's husband. WTH.

 

I'm afraid there's no basis for a debate here because there doesn't appear to be point of agreement from which a debate could be formed. I'm simply morally opposed to rooting for the death of a man's wife so her murderer can shack up with her victim's husband and have her "happily ever after" with him and the son of the woman she murdered. Clearly, that doesn't bother other viewers. To each their own, but I will never root for the murderer.

 

(*And before anyone starts going "But we never actually saw Regina kill Marian." Regina captured Marian, terrorized her, threw her in a dungeon, and scheduled her for execution. We witnessed all that on screen and there's nothing to debate there. Regina had every intention of having Marian killed. Period. Full stop. As far as we know, (and the writers told Parrilla that she did kill her) Regina killed Marian. Marian was nothing to Regina. So I don't care if Marian got away in whatever fanciful machinations and elaborate mental gymnastics people are concocting to excuse Regina. Regina was planning to kill Marian like she killed hundreds of others, and that in itself is bad enough. )

Edited September 10, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Mari]

(*And before anyone starts going "But we never actually saw Regina kill Marian." Regina captured Marian, terrorized her, threw her in a dungeon, and scheduled her for execution. We witnessed all that on screen and there's nothing to debate there. Regina had every intention of having Marian killed. Period. Full stop. As far as we know, (and the writers told Parrilla that she did kill her) Regina killed Marian. Marian was nothing to Regina. So I don't care if Marian got away in whatever fanciful machinations and elaborate mental gymnastics people are concocting to excuse Regina. Regina was planning to kill Marian like she killed hundreds of others, and that in itself is bad enough. )

The logic of the "Regina might not've killed Marian.  Maybe she escaped and someone else killed her, later." argument completely escapes me. 

 

To Regina, she was random peasant #23,947 or so.  Even if she did escape, would you be the Black Knight  or guard that made sure to mention it?  I wouldn't bring it up unless I had to--Regina's killed messengers that brought her news she didn't like.  And think about it:  Regina's killed so many people she doesn't remember them all. 

 

What does it matter if--by some fluke--Marian escaped?  How does that change anything?  She still did everything you said. She still tormented Marian and had every intention of killing Marian.  So, we're supposed to think Regina's innocent because someone else killed Marian in the middle of Regina trying to kill Marian?  Huh?

 

Also, the "Regina deserves him more because he's her soulmate and she deserves to be happy and now Marian is stealing him." point of view is one big question mark for me, too.

 

Regina didn't want him.  Regina walked away from him, choosing power and revenge.  She then spent years killing people, and Robin met someone, got married, and was happy.  There're consequences to your actions, and the Guy-That-Could've-Been-But-Isn't-Because-Choices is a consequence a lot of people live with and manage to find happiness in spite of it.  No one "deserves" another person.

 

We're supposed to be upset and on Regina's side because the soulmate she didn't want met someone else and Regina didn't succeed in killing her?

 

I'm repeating, because it's worth the emphasis:

 

We're supposed to be upset and feel sorry for Regina because the soulmate she didn't want until four days ago met someone else in between and Regina didn't succeed in killing her?

 

That's some twisted thinking.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Mari

[Dani-Ellie]

We're supposed to be upset and on Regina's side because the soulmate she didn't want met someone else and Regina didn't succeed in killing her?

 

Word.

 

I mean, look, if they wanted us to truly feel sorry for Regina, maybe they shouldn't have had Regina be the one to have imprisoned Marian. Maybe they should have had Emma react on instinct and pull her out of the way of an oncoming carriage or something (a la Marty in the first Back to the Future). There were countless other ways to have spun Marian's return so that the resulting complication wasn't grody.

 

Because I'm sorry, but Regina squandered her first chance with Robin. She didn't take the leap when she should have and life moved on, as it is wont to do (and should). The reveal that she's the one who, even if she didn't actually kill Marian, kept her from returning to her family by imprisoning her (which cannot be argued because we saw Marian in Regina's dungeon), is enough for me to believe that Marian's return is friggin' karmic justice.

[Shanna Marie]

One of the problems for me is that a lot of Regina's "victim" status is her own doing. Like when she was moaning in Neverland about how Henry was all she had, while Emma had her family, "this person" and a pirate who pined for her. Well, whose fault is that? She murdered her father, who loved her, because casting the curse and getting revenge was more important to her than he was. She may not have been the one who ended up killing her mother, but it wasn't for lack of trying on her part. She had her husband killed (and never seemed to have tried to have a relationship with him). She had a stepdaughter who loved her, but Regina devoted her life to trying to destroy her. She was shown a possible soulmate and decided she'd rather have revenge than have a happy relationship. She had a genie who adored her, and she used him to kill her husband and made sure he was implicated in the crime. Instead of trying to develop any real romantic relationship, she ripped out a guy's heart and forced him to be her sex slave, then murdered him when he resisted her. She had the closest thing she had to a friend in the Enchanted Forest trapped in dragon form and imprisoned. She had someone who thought she was a friend in Storybrooke, and she tried to arrange her murder so she could frame someone else for the crime. And she cursed an entire kingdom and uprooted everyone's lives so she could get what she wanted.

 

But poor Regina, she's all alone! She has no one! Why can't she just be given Robin and Henry so she won't be all alone?

 

This is where the lack of self-awareness is hurting her. She hasn't connected the dots between her killing everyone who gets close to her or rejecting most opportunities at real relationships because she'd rather hate and her own loneliness. Until she does, her relationships are pretty much doomed.

 

Greg / Owen seemed to have no problem showing his feelings, and I believe Regina suffered consequences for killing his father.

Yes, and Greg was written as a villain -- in spite of being Regina's victim. The show treated him as being in the wrong, and no one other than him ever blamed Regina for the fallout of what she did to him. There was no big revelation to the rest of the characters about his backstory where they got to learn what Regina did and react to that. He was given no sympathy. It was played as "mean old Greg is torturing Regina and we must rescue her!"

 

I still can't believe that not only was Regina able to True Love Kiss without a heart, but that it worked with Henry. I could see him wanting her to be better and pulling for that, but there's a lot of bad stuff between them that hasn't really been addressed. Even if no one else has figured out that Regina killed Graham, Henry knew, and he even tried to distance Emma from the situation to protect her. Then there was all the grabbing him with vines and threatening the town to force him to stay, following the gaslighting and deliberately hurting him to score points against Emma. Not to mention the poisoning. So while he might be glad not to be permanently separated from the mother who raised him from birth to age 10 and while he might be okay with spending time with her and encouraging her to be good, I'm not sure I can buy familial True Love. He should have a lot of mixed feelings. He might love her, but magical-level True Love?

[KingOfHearts]

 

But poor Regina, she's all alone! She has no one! Why can't she just be given Robin and Henry so she won't be all alone?

 

Lots of great points, Shanna Marie. Emma outlined this in The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, when she said that it was Mayor Mills who was driving everyone away, not Sheriff Swan. If only we had the same Emma in the final scene of S3!

 

I don't think it's that anyone cares if Regina whines or snarks, but the characters take it so seriously. The coddling has gotten worse ever since the Rise of Woegina in 2B. If she was whining back in the first season, Emma would have shut her up fast. Snow wouldn't have put her head on her shoulder. Henry would have told her the facts straight up. Now they're all cheerleaders.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

One of the problems for me is that a lot of Regina's "victim" status is her own doing. Like when she was moaning in Neverland about how Henry was all she had, while Emma had her family, "this person" and a pirate who pined for her. Well, whose fault is that?

Oh my God, Regina whining in Neverland might be my all-time favorite no self-awareness/dumb as a post and not able to connect cause and effect/ultimate narcissist moment. Like, let's count them out:

1) Regina is standing over Henry's cold mostly-dead body and all she can whine about is herself. "Look at me, I have no one left, my life is awful, you have all these things but I have nothing." Know what didn't come up in the sentence I just typed? Henry. She's not sad because Henry's dead for Henry, she's sad because she has lost another toy. Henry is literally lying dead before them and Regina can say is me-me-me-me-me.

2) Turning loss into a competition. Like, really? You have to turn the apparent death of the son you both love into a competition? Again, can we say narcissist?

3) And let's not even touch the tone-deafness of Regina bitching to the woman whose life she ruined about all these things.

4) Maybe if Regina hadn't murdered her father, husband, attempted to murder her mother, drove the stepdaughter who only wanted to love her away, actively avoided meeting her soulmate, and betrayed literally every single person who tried to befriend her, she wouldn't be alone. But does any of this occur to good ole Woegina? Like, that maybe her actions have had a big effect on how other approach her? Nope. It was almost as bad as "I murder entire villages, but why won't people love me???" for sheer "I don't know how you don't drown in your cereal in the morning" dumbness.

 

And that moment encapsulates the writing problems with Regina in a nutshell, because we were obviously supposed to buy it and think "Oh, poor Regina, she just has the hardest life ever! She's just such a victim!" Yeah, no.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't put too much pressure on the "He's all I have!" line because it was in the moment. Her son was dying, so it probably made her feel alone. In the grand scheme of things it was absolute crap. Not only because she was the one who got rid of her family, but because she wasn't alone. The Charmings all cared about her and were there for her, diluted or not. 

 

I'd say the Regrets Tree was totally on her though. That was a calculated speech about something her mind has been set on for literally years.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

I find that there are many, many, many problems with the list above. But I'm gonna stick to responding to the highlights. Notably that two of those people listed above as people that Regina "won't get back" are two people Regina actively tried to kill. So basically, the issue is what -- it's sad that Regina didn't get to kill them first? Would Cora be on this list if Hook had successfully killed Cora like Regina hired him to in the first place? But what, because Snow successfully killed Cora (in self defense!) it's all boo-hoo, poor Regina? That's certainly a big slice of hypocrisy bullshit pie Regina is serving up there. Regina thought she had killed her own mother and was all "Sorry I had to have you killed, Mom, but you had to go 'cause I needs to get my revenge on!" But now that it was someone else's doing, Regina is all sad face about it and everyone should feel sorry for her. Pfft, whatever Woegina. Sing it to Satan.

 

As for the "sister" she won't get back, well, Regina and Zelena were trying to kill each other for 99% of 3B and at the end, when Zelena was incarcerated, Regina basically told Zelena to straighten herself out or she would kill her. How sad that Regina won't get her back now 'cause why? She won't be the one that got to kill her???  Rubbish. Regina and Zelena were nothing more than enemies and they were actually trying to destroy each other. Regina feels the loss of Zelena no more than she feels the loss of the ant she stepped on and killed while crossing the street in Storybrooke.

 

And finally, this item:

Regina murdered Marian in the original timeline*. Regina captured Marian, paraded her in front of a village, terrorizing them all (and all the while mocking Marian's screams for help), then threw Marian in a dungeon where she was later executed by Regina. Marian's blood was on Regina's hands. Now, in the new timeline, Emma saves Marian (she basically wipes Regina's hands clean of Marian's murder), but apparently that's not a good thing. No, it's a travesty of epic proportions because the woman that Regina terrorized and murdered didn't stay dead so that Regina could shack up with her victim's husband. WTH.

 

I'm afraid there's no basis for a debate here because there doesn't appear to be point of agreement from which a debate could be formed. I'm simply morally opposed to rooting for the death of a man's wife so her murderer can shack up with her victim's husband and have her "happily ever after" with him and the son of the woman she murdered. Clearly, that doesn't bother other viewers. To each their own, but I will never root for the murderer.

 

(*And before anyone starts going "But we never actually saw Regina kill Marian." Regina captured Marian, terrorized her, threw her in a dungeon, and scheduled her for execution. We witnessed all that on screen and there's nothing to debate there. Regina had every intention of having Marian killed. Period. Full stop. As far as we know, (and the writers told Parrilla that she did kill her) Regina killed Marian. Marian was nothing to Regina. So I don't care if Marian got away in whatever fanciful machinations and elaborate mental gymnastics people are concocting to excuse Regina. Regina was planning to kill Marian like she killed hundreds of others, and that in itself is bad enough. )

 

There is no logical way that Regina killed Marian. Robin knew how his wife died. That was made clear. It was also made clear that Regina would have had Marian executed in a public execution. So everyone would have known #1 How she died, and #2 that Regina killed her. That obviously wasn't the case when Robin spoke about Marian in S3. Are you really saying that he knew Regina MURDERED his wife and he decided to ignore it and start dating her?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Robin knew how his wife died.

 

I'm giving Robin a big benefit of a doubt here, but I don't think he'd be dating Regina if he knew she had killed Marian, like you said. I know he and Marian have different stories, but I don't think that means they don't line up. There's a few missing pieces there that S4 will probably fill out.  At the end of the day it really doesn't matter how Marian died. Regina planned on killing her anyway. 

 

Regina said so herself, "Intent is everything."

 

 

I love that Regina murdering Marian is 'morally wrong' but Rumple murdering Belle's fiancé is 'true love'. 

 

I don't know anyone who thinks murdering Gaston is True Love. If a villain kills a secondary character, I don't really care. The problem with Regina is that she's killed countless people, shown no remorse for it, and she's still labeled a "hero". Rumple isn't trying to fool anyone but Belle - he's still very much a villain.

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I love that Regina murdering Marian is 'morally wrong' but Rumple murdering Belle's fiancé is 'true love'. The hypocrisy is awesome!!! Guess the only true 'Villains' are obviously women. How sad.

 

Cold-blooded murder of an innocent person is wrong, period. Rumpel is a villain, period. I don't believe anyone here was arguing that he isn't. (And for the record, I have plenty of issues with Rumpel/Belle being depicted as True Love.) I don't understand the impulse to try to argue that Regina's crimes are somehow lesser because Rumpel's are worse or that Rumpel is seen as less of a villain when he's done worse things. Measuring Regina's crimes against Rumpel's yardstick doesn't diminish the damage Regina has personally wrought. Crimes are crimes, and this isn't a contest. This is a debate about Regina that, honestly, I don't think Rumpel should even enter into.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Souris]

There is so much wrong with this.. but honestly, there is no logical way that Regina killed Marian. Robin knew how his wife died. That was made clear. It was also made clear that Regina would have had Marian executed in a public execution. So everyone would have known #1 How she died, and #2 that Regina killed her. That obviously wasn't the case when Robin spoke about Marian in S3. Are you really saying that he knew Regina MURDERED his wife and he decided to ignore it and start dating her?

 

To me, the illogical theories are the ones in which Regina DIDN'T murder Marian.

 

It wasn't actually made clear that Regina would have had Marian executed in a public execution. Heck, she didn't have SNOW WHITE executed in a public execution! She did it in the castle. And even if it was a public execution, since Marian wasn't giving out her name, how would anybody watching know who she was? They would not. Unless somebody who personally knew Marian happened to be there, nobody would know Regina had executed her. For the crowd, she'd just be a poor, nameless woman who helped Snow. It's not like there were newspapers or blogs covering each execution and sending photos of the victim all over the realm.

 

As for Robin, all he said was that Marian's death was his fault and it was related to a job. There are a multitude possible reasons he would think she was dead without knowing the particulars -- especially since she never returned to him and Roland. Nobody actually thinks he knew Regina executed her. 

 

Also, I've never seen anybody saying that Rumple turning Gaston into a rose and cutting off his legs was true love or a good thing.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Souris

[FavFable]

I'm giving Robin a big benefit of a doubt here, but I don't think he'd be dating Regina if he knew she had killed Marian, like you said. I know he and Marian have different stories, but I don't think that means they don't line up. There's a few missing pieces there that S4 will probably fill out.  At the end of the day it really doesn't matter how Marian died. Regina planned on killing her anyway. 

 

Regina said so herself, "Intent is everything."

 

 

I don't know anyone who thinks murdering Gaston is True Love. If a villain kills a secondary character, I don't really care. The problem with Regina is that she's killed countless people, shown no remorse for it, and she's still labeled a "hero". Rumple isn't trying to fool anyone but Belle - he's still very much a villain.

She also saved a ton of people and continues to try and change her life. Something Rumple refuses to do. But hey he isn't a villain,he has been misunderstood for over 300 years.

 

So just to be clear, killing Gaston is fine because he is a secondary character, so any secondary character Regina kills is ok, right?

 

Rumple didn't "plan on killing Gaston" he actually did. And that is excused. To try and say that Regina is worse for thinking about killing Marian is just ... unfathomable.

 

"Nobody actually thinks he knew Regina executed her."

Wow, so Regina had the first private public execution in history. The whole point of executing Marain was the make an example of someone helping Snow White. Makes perfect sense that she would keep it a secret. There is no logical way that Robin knew his wife was executed and would not know who killed her.

Edited September 11, 2014 by FavFable

[KingOfHearts]

 

Rumple didn't "plan on killing Gaston" he actually did. And that is excused. To try and say that Regina is worse for thinking about killing Marian is just ... unfathomable.

The difference here is Rumple is a villain and Regina is supposedly a hero. Killing secondary characters is never right behavior, but villains don't do the right thing - otherwise they wouldn't be villains. The show isn't trying to convince me Rumple is redeemed - it's trying to convince me Regina is redeemed. I don't care who Regina kills if she actually owns it, but if she does it and still wants everyone to think of her as "good" or a "hero", then that's where it gets annoying.

 

And by the way, everyone, remember Regina's redemption is not beyond murder yet. She threatened to kill Zelena if she misbehaved, so she's still very capable of killing.

 

There is no logical way that Robin knew how his wife died and would not know who killed her.

 

Which makes it very creepy if he's dating the woman he knew killed his wife from the start... #BreakUpOutlawQueen

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Also, can you please point us to where in the conversation anyone has said that Rumpel killing Gaston is "okay"? As far as I can tell, everyone is roundly condemning Rumpel for his evil, including (but not limited to) killing Gaston. Can you please explain who you think is letting him off the hook for that and why?

Also, what does it matter what Rumpel does? It's not an evil-off. It IS possible for BOTH Regina and Rumpel to be pretty evil at the same time.

[FavFable]

The difference here is Rumple is a villain and Regina is supposedly a hero. Killing secondary characters is never right behavior, but villains don't do the right thing - otherwise they wouldn't be villains. The show isn't trying to convince me Rumple is redeemed - it's trying to convince me Regina is redeemed. I don't care who Regina kills if she actually owns it, but if she does it and still wants everyone to think of her as "good" or a "hero", then that's where it gets annoying.

 

And by the way, everyone, remember Regina's redemption is not beyond murder yet. She threatened to kill Zelena if she misbehaved, so she's still very capable of killing.

 

 

Which makes it very creepy if he's dating the woman he knew killed his wife from the start... #BreakUpOutlawQueen

Regina is not a hero. Pretty sure if she was her title wouldn't be The Evil Queen.

 

#BreakupOutlawQueen.. They aren't together. But its true love just like Belle being with the man that killed her fiancé, which isn't creepy at all. It is meant to be.

Edited September 11, 2014 by FavFable

[Souris]

Wow, so Regina had the first private public execution in history. The whole point of executing Marain was the make an example of someone helping Snow White. Makes perfect sense that she would keep it a secret. There is no logical way that Robin knew his wife was executed and would not know who killed her.

 

Again, we do not know if Robin knows Marian was executed. He never said she was. My guess is he does not know and believes she died in some other way. And again, even if Marian was publicly executed, nobody would have known it was Marian.

 

I'm gonna stop beating my head against this brick wall now.

[FormerMod-a1]

1) Let's watch the tone here.  It's OK to disagree and debate, but keep it respectful. 

 

Good:
"I disagree because..."
"I'm confused about the difference between X and Y. The way I see it..."

 

Not good:

"Do you REALLY think...?  Really?!?"

"The double-standard is crazy!"
 

2) Things are getting repetitive again. Make your point and move on. You're not going to change your mind, so don't expect to change others' minds.

 

3) Comparing and contrasting different villains should probably be discussed in the Villains thread.

 

4) If someone constantly riles you up, please use the Ignore user feature. 

 

If this continues, more serious action will be taken.  PM me, or "report" this post if you have questions.

 

Lastly, a big "Thank you" to those keeping it civil.  

 

Carry on!

[FavFable]

Again, we do not know if Robin knows Marian was executed. He never said she was. My guess is he does not know and believes she died in some other way. And again, even if Marian was publicly executed, nobody would have known it was Marian.

 

I'm gonna stop beating my head against this brick wall now.

We do not know Regina killed Marian. So if the assumption was that Regina did kill her, in a public execution. Then it would also be reasonable that someone in town could tell Robin a woman matching his wife's description died in the public square. Killed by the Evil Queen.

To assume Regina killed Marian and Robin did not know means... he had no idea, how she died, where she died or who killed her. How would he even know she was dead?

Edited September 11, 2014 by FavFable

[Mari]

Regina is not a hero. Pretty sure if she was her title wouldn't be The Evil Queen.

The problem is the show doesn't seem to understand that.  Henry, Snow, Zelena, and Regina herself have all referred to Regina as a hero.  None of them were immediately corrected or mocked for it  (the closest to derogatory would be Zelena, who was being sarcastic, before Regina affirmed that yes, yes, she was a hero.)  It was treated as an obvious affirmation that the audience needed to see as truth.

 

The Evil Queen and Regina are often treated as completely different characters.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Mari

[Mari]

There is no logical way that Regina killed Marian. Robin knew how his wife died. That was made clear. It was also made clear that Regina would have had Marian executed in a public execution. So everyone would have known #1 How she died, and #2 that Regina killed her. That obviously wasn't the case when Robin spoke about Marian in S3. Are you really saying that he knew Regina MURDERED his wife and he decided to ignore it and start dating her?

Responding in the relationship thread.

[Mitch]

but I still think the Regina of S1 would've bitchslapped the hell out of S2's Woegina or 3B whining-about-men Regina. Regina was just so much more fun when she wasn't sobbing her eyes out over a hangnail every other episode.

 

I can just imagine Mayor Mills disgust with whiny Regina and her whiney ass ways. Damn, I want Mayor Mills back!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Damn, I want Mayor Mills back!

I second that. Can we get "redeemed" Mayor Mills? I think she can be strict and snarky without being "evil". I'd love to see her do her "sass" thing with the Big Bads.

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rockybeach]

Hey Favfable, wondering if you saw the latest Regina spoiler and if so, what are your thoughts?

[FavFable]

I am cautiously optimistic. If it plays out, it will be good for Regina, but what they say and what appears on screen is often very different. Look at the season finale, they talked about how amazing it was going to be, and it was a joke.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm in S2 with my rewatch. (I accept your condolences!) 

 

So in We Are Both, Regina's redemption starts off well. Her reasons for wanting to change are clear - she doesn't want to be like her own mother, and she wants Henry's love back. Not exactly perfect goals, but starter ones nonetheless. I saw legitimate emotion when Regina apologized to Henry and let him go with Charming. In that episode, and most of 2A, I genuinely bought her redemption arc. Quick-paced yes, but very much real.

 

Then Cora comes along in 2B. The very person Regina didn't want to become she follows like a sheep. That part is what I don't get. She hated her mother so much that she tried to kill her twice, and five minutes after she gets into town, she's her lap dog. One thing you can sense here is Cora knows how to manipulate her daughter. Woegina is nothing new to Cora - she knows exactly how to work her. For that reason, I can see a dip in Regina's redemption arc. But it doesn't get any better until the very end of the season with the failsafe destruction in the mines.

 

What I don't understand is why they didn't use Cora as a way to actually build up Regina's redemption instead of tearing it down. She could have slowly realized the problems with her life, which she did begin to see, but it never went anywhere. She found out that all the events of the Stable Boy were manipulated by Cora, and yet she did nothing about it. That confuses me.

 

I'm puzzled by what the writers were trying to accomplish with Regina overall in S2.

Edited September 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

What I don't understand is why they didn't use Cora as a way to actually build up Regina's redemption instead of tearing it down.

 

Word. I was waiting for the moment when Regina has to choose between Henry and Cora. When Regina realizes that Cora is not looking out for her, does not have her best interest at heart, and is once again using Regina to get what she wants. That moment when Regina realizes that she's become everything she didn't want to become and she needs to take the steps to change it now before she truly ends up like her mother.

 

And it never happened. It could have been so powerful for Regina to take that step, stand up for herself, and finally begin to heal her wounds, but nope.

[stealinghome]

I still am willing to bet that that was the initial ending planned for S2, and when they found out they could go to Neverland they totally threw the Cora arc under the bus. That's really the only way 2B makes sense to me.

[kili]

when they found out they could go to Neverland they totally threw the Cora arc under the bus.

 

I'm not sure this particular piece of bad writing can be blamed on Neverland.

 

These writers are obsessed with twisting what the audience thinks they know. I'm pretty sure that they wanted to "play with" the darker side of Snow and having her parallel Regina by killing one of her parents. If Regina had done the sensible thing and turned on Cora, she would have just high-fived Snow for figuring out how to kill Cora and everybody would have had a party at Grannie's. In order for Cora's death to mean something, they had to have her death mean something to somebody and Regina was the only possible character who might care (certainly, nobody else would. So, Regina had to want Cora not to die.   Therefore, she had to be on Cora's side.

 

It really isn't that unusual for an abused child to repeat the abuse and to still love the abuser, so while I think it would have been great if Regina had turned on her Mom, I don't think it's totally unrealistic that she did not. The real problem with that arc is that the audience was meant to think ill of Snow when really, I just wanted to high-five her and party at Grannie's. It was totally unrealistic that the other characters didn't seem to feel that way.

[Shanna Marie]

She found out that all the events of the Stable Boy were manipulated by Cora, and yet she did nothing about it.

That's why I have a hard time with the current relationship between Regina and Snow, as much as I enjoy their scenes together. Regina has learned that her entire revenge scheme against Snow was misguided, that the whole thing was manipulated by Cora and that Snow was just as much a pawn as she was. And yet Regina hasn't acknowledged any of that, hasn't apologized to Snow, hasn't said she was wrong. When Regina told Snow that killing Cora was "complicated" because Cora killed Snow's mother, that was the perfect time to bring up what Regina has done to Snow and have her apologize. Instead, we have Snow continuing to grovel and apologize, Regina grudgingly admit that it's "complicated" and Snow say she was such a brat. If, after everything she's seen, learned and experienced, Regina can't acknowledge that she was wrong to devote her entire adult life to destroying Snow, then she's nowhere near redeemed.

[RadioGirl27]

That's why I have a hard time with the current relationship between Regina and Snow, as much as I enjoy their scenes together. Regina has learned that her entire revenge scheme against Snow was misguided, that the whole thing was manipulated by Cora and that Snow was just as much a pawn as she was. And yet Regina hasn't acknowledged any of that, hasn't apologized to Snow, hasn't said she was wrong. When Regina told Snow that killing Cora was "complicated" because Cora killed Snow's mother, that was the perfect time to bring up what Regina has done to Snow and have her apologize. Instead, we have Snow continuing to grovel and apologize, Regina grudgingly admit that it's "complicated" and Snow say she was such a brat. If, after everything she's seen, learned and experienced, Regina can't acknowledge that she was wrong to devote her entire adult life to destroying Snow, then she's nowhere near redeemed.

This is so twisted. The fact that, after all the things Regina has done to her and her family, it's Snow the one apologizing is so wrong.

[Mitch]

If Regina had done the sensible thing and turned on Cora, she would have just high-fived Snow for figuring out how to kill Cora and everybody would have had a party at Grannie's. In order for Cora's death to mean something, they had to have her death mean something to somebody and Regina was the only possible character who might care (certainly, nobody else would. So, Regina had to want Cora not to die.   Therefore, she had to be on Cora's side.

 

I agree that is what the writer's persective was, but they still could have had Regina turn on her mother and stil feel pain about it. Its her mother and as we saw in the Fairy Back she was willing to kill her and was still sad about it, AND they could have had their stupid Neverland arc at the same time (while all the Cora drama was taking place no one would know that outsiders came in and grabbed Henry until the last minute.) 

 

I still think that it would have been better last year if it was Cora who re cast the Curse...(I would love a Fairyback where Rumpie trys to get Cora to cast it, thinking that Cora would kill Regina to start it but she cooly says, "Then I would have to kill you my love, Regina is an means to an end.") So her whole ambition was to get to our world, and recast the Curse using Rumpie Dumps heart. I would have Regina believing her crap until the confrontation in the Clock Tower where Cora kills Snows Nanny. We woudl see that Regina is actually upset with killing the woman "That wanst part of the plan." and that she is starting to devlope empathy and see her mother for what she is. Somehow she finds out the whole plan of Cora to set things in motion that ends up killing Daniel ("Oh dear, as if I didn't know you were making a fool of yourself over a stable boy. I knew before Snow told me but I needed someone else to take the blame." ) Regina turns on Cora, Cora goes it alone against the good guys and Regina, etc. I would have scene that we had with Pan and Rump would have been Cora and Rump (who really are each other dark true loves...) and as Rump kills her she crushes his heart to start the curse and  as punishment to Regina and everyone else. Then Regina would have to send everyone back (I have no idea how to bring Rump back from having his heart crushed but this is Once and they do that b.s. all the time.)

 

Okay, that means we would have missed the Neverland arc but that would be find by me.

[FavFable]

What I don't understand is why they didn't use Cora as a way to actually build up Regina's redemption instead of tearing it down. She could have slowly realized the problems with her life, which she did begin to see, but it never went anywhere. She found out that all the events of the Stable Boy were manipulated by Cora, and yet she did nothing about it. That confuses me.

 

That storyline made perfect sense to me. Regina wasn't the Evil Queen with Cora. She was the daughter that was never good enough. The tool to be bought and sold at her mother's whim. Cora showed up giving Regina the one thing she had always wanted from Cora. Love. Cora apologized, supported Regina and promised her the one thing she wanted more than anything else, her son back.

[Camera One]

I never found "The Stable Boy" effective in convincing me that Regina wanted Cora's love.  She talked back to Cora, she rejected Cora's plans for her, and her dream was a life away from her mother, with Daniel.  So there was little basis for Regina's "Oh Mommy, I wuv you so much" in S2.  Regina became the doormat for the first time ever when Cora came to Storybrooke, and she pretty much lost all agency and independent thought (basically Mommy's henchman in "Tiny").  

[FavFable]

The Miller's Daughter made it really clear. Check out that episode. The ending shows what Regina wanted from Cora.

 

Actually the whole episode makes it clear. That is what Snow uses to try and destroy both Regina and Cora.

Edited September 13, 2014 by FavFable

[Rumsy4]

That is what Snow uses to try and destroy both Regina and Cora.

 

Could you clarify this statement, please? When does Snow set out to destroy Regina and Cora?