S03.E02: Mary and Martha

[echo.Echo.ECHO]

Heh. Looks like I should have read the next episode thread before posting.

[ferjy]

5 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Oh it shouldn’t disappoint, heh. 

My main issue with June getting a pass all the time is due to what this show was meant to be about. 

I never saw Gilead operating like a James Bond or John Wick film, a place where a super human who never dies and always beats the bad guys is the main character.

I understand the show wants to keep its’ viewers interested, but did they really need to leap all the way to “The Handmaid’s Tale: Alias Edition”? 

I personally appreciated the show a lot more when they cared about realism and the horrors of the truth about humanity, not complete and total fiction that keeps certain characters alive despite their repetitively stupid decisions that should have gotten them killed ages ago. 

Or the Johnny English edition since she keeps botching it up every time. The first season had me gasping at the horrors and the injustice. It was chilling and gripping. Now I’m eyerolling and fast forwarding.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The main character is supposed to be attractive? 

Did I miss something?

Personally, I prefer real noses, and I don't think Moss is unattractive.

Who in the cast have had a nose job? By putting down others for their looks, you are doing the same thing you are reprimanding others off.

I personally think Moss has beautiful expressive eyes. I've never commented on her looks - it is irrelevant.

My issue is confined to the way the character is written and increasingly, portrayed by Moss. Moss' default looks are now defiance and smirks. Every single time she's on screen, she is doing one or the other. Both are unsuitable for a captive whom, even though is not in present mortal danger due to her capacity to breed, can and should face sever punishment for stepping out of line. We keep forgetting this woman is a free women precisely because of her acting choices but with the writing too. It cheapens the notion of Gilead

But these are not the only issues with June, the show's choice to keep her in the orbit of the Waterfords by using her to facilitate their stay on the canvas is doing sever damage to the main character and the integrity of the show.

I can easily forgive the liberties they take with Emily because the reward is worth those inconsistencies. Emily and the baby surviving the crossing is unbelievable but it is eclipsed by a beautiful portrayal of the characters' fear quickly replaced by extreme gratitude when the guard came upon her. Her's is the only storyline with any emotional resonanc 

We don't get that kind of give and take take with June's character. It is a series of unbelievable string of scenes. Most of the criticism is focused here because it has the most screen time. 

[echo.Echo.ECHO]

9 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Moss' default looks are now defiance and smirks. Every single time she's on screen, she is doing one or the other.

I think that Elisabeth Moss is actually a very good actress, but I imagine that it is terribly difficult to portray the same emotion repeatedly without words and other motion to help. What I mean is that I think that she can face-act (and I know I've seen her do it well before, but at the moment, I couldn't tell you where) but I also think that having to face-act the same scene over and over and over has to be difficult for the actress -- and of course it gets really old for the audience.

I had the same problem with Daenerys in Game of Thrones at the end. Her "madness" look was a clenched jaw and staring, slightly squinty eyes. Repeatedly.

What I don't understand is that Elisabeth Moss is one of the executive producers. She could call a moratorium on all of these closeups if she wanted. They're not doing her any favors, and I expect better acting choices from her than that.

I'm trying to hold out for episode 6, which I read is worth it. I can't figure out how to put spoiler tags in on my phone, or I would elaborate a little! 

Edited June 13, 2019 by echo.Echo.ECHO
Phone typing, ugh.

[Umbelina]

I think they are doing a pretty good job of showing Gilead beginning to fall apart at the seams.  Wives are questioning the ban on books, and worried after seeing Nick's wife murdered.  Handmaids are acting up, not just June either.  Janine has obviously, and two aunts have been assaulted (Moira and Emily.)  A handmaid bombed the new handmaid training center.  Martha's have been organizing.  Jezebel's exists.

There is rot at the core of this whole experiment, and it's starting to show more and more.

In the book it said that Gilead

Spoiler

got a LOT worse before it finally failed.

With all of this stuff happening, we may be about to see that.

I agree that we keep seeing that same expression in too many June close ups.  Editing?  Directing?  Or is that grim, defiant look supposed to be where June is at now?  Determined to succeed or die here?  Realizing that?  Either way, I absolutely do not care that it's not a flattering look for her, but I'd like for them to give her more.

Closeups are here to stay, and they (mostly) do work.  It's certainly not just June.  I just rewatched the entire series from the beginning.  Every actress and actor on screen gets them, and gets a lot of them.

[endure]

On 6/5/2019 at 10:31 PM, Miles said:

Doesn't matter. They notified Lue when she got there, because she was on his list. They didn't ask her if they could or not. Why would that be any different here.

She was there for weeks, maybe months. She had no protective gear and that is highly irradiated soil from the fallout of multiple nuclear reactors. It's a wonder that she isn't dead already. Her mitigating the effects would have barely made any difference. It probably served mostly as something to her to do to feel in control. She should get regular screenings in short interwals. There is no way around that.

I'm pretty sure the writers actually forgot about it.

I agree this a huge oversight during her medical exam it should have been mentioned somewhere.

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also keep in mind that refugees coming into Canada generally settle in large metropolitan areas. Big cities where there is typically more access to doctors than somewhere like rural Manitoba or something. So that's just another reason why I didn't really have much of a problem buying this plot point. Hell it made more sense than a lot of the others.

Was it this episode or the previous one where they said that Gilead was finally going to secure Chicago. Now the whole war thing and Gilead actualy winning is hard for me to believe. But if the actual US is still fighting for Chicago then why is the US flag only 2 stars?

We posted close ups of those original maps (they showed blurry and dumbed down ones on the show) I think in the spoilers thread? 

Anyway, "the colonies" are not just the nuclear waste sites and slave labor farming sites, I think some are those areas where pockets of resistance have held on.  So, for example, while Chicago may be "held" by Americans, the rest of Illinois could be Gilead controlled. 

They have wars or insurgence all over the place, but the only two places where it's still entirely the USA are Alaska and Hawaii.

[Umbelina]

Spoiler

OK, here is the map, and you can zoom in to see which locations are controlled, military bases, etc.  This was at a show sponsored party I think, they ended up using a much vaguer map on the show though, so I'm spoiler tagging it out of caution.

Spoiler

On this one you can see rebel held areas better.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Umbelina

[Ashforth]

On 6/12/2019 at 11:44 AM, ferjy said:

Well I don't know what else to tell you if all the other posts here saying exactly the opposite don't convince you.  "She can't be beat" is basically the theme now with June. She can do whatever she likes and get away with it while other handmaids suffer all kinds of consequences for doing a lot less. Taking over the Marthas' resistance project was an unbelievably stupid bit of writing. It would have been far more interesting to see the Marthas carry out the plan on their own without June riding in on her white horse and taking over.

I didn't think that the point of having a lively discussion of our diverse opinions was to form a group consensus and then try to convince anyone who disagrees that their opinion is wrong. These are, after all, opinions and not facts, right?

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

I didn't think that the point of having a lively discussion of our diverse opinions was to form a group consensus and then try to convince anyone who disagrees that their opinion is wrong. These are, after all, opinions and not facts, right?

Well I was replying to the member's "Where did you see that?" which would be asking for facts, not opinions. We were discussing the facts that show whether she is or is not a superhero. Although "convince" may have been the wrong word. I should have said that the facts in the posts "support" my opinions.

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Well I was replying to the member's "Where did you see that?" which would be asking for facts, not opinions. We were discussing the facts that show whether she is or is not a superhero. Although "convince" may have been the wrong word. I should have said that the facts in the posts "support" my opinions.

I feel ya. 

I don't know what the writers' intentions are or if they even consider what the audience reaction might be in regard to June's decisions. I've only watched the first two episodes of this season so far because I'm not liking what I'm seeing. A lot of my thoughts have been expressed by others here.

I will say that I don't see the storyline as June being a superhero or riding in on a white horse to save the day. I see her as a selfish person who disregards the danger that her actions pose to others. She bullied her way into being allowed to participate in the operation to move the chemist Martha, but she certainly didn't lead it. I still haven't been able to figure out who the Martha was who got shot and died - and I've started watching with closed captioning to try to follow what the fuck is going on. 

The Guardians leaving without searching the house? Ridiculous. June burying the body on Lawrence's property as he looks on? Ridiculous. I guess Mrs. Lawrence is going to end up being a resistance mastermind masquerading as a mentally ill woman. sigh.

June - and the Waterfords - have been bulletproof in a logic-defying way based what we are supposed to believe about the way Gilead works. It's also incredible that Lawrence could get June assigned to his household given what just happened with Emily attacking Aunt Lydia in his house and then allegedly kidnapping Nicole and escaping.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Ashforth

[Beatriceblake]

I thought this episode was a big improvement on the season opener.

Alexis Bledel continues to do the best work of her career as Emily. Aside from her expression, the deadened tone to her voice really sold how lost and disconnected she was feeling. Also I loved Samira Wiley's work in this episode as well. I'm curious to see where they go with Emily because given how extreme her experiences were in Gilead, you can imagine her snapping in Canada and reacting violently to something.

I also liked that the show interrogated June's recklessness a bit more in this episode. She's clearly lost any sense of caution and here, it contributes to someone else's death. I find this totally believable, she's basically gone from being willing to do anything to get through and survive to the other extreme and her lucky escapes seem to have made her think she is untouchable. There were also other reminders the regime is onto her to a certain extent such as the walking partner and Aunt Lydia's anger. June shouldn't really trust or take liberties with Aunt Lydia, yet she seems to have a compulsion to do so. June is smart enough to realise that Aunt Lydia, having been stabbed by Emily, might be volatile and also thinking she was too lenient with the handmaids in general.

I love what they are doing with Lawrence's character. For all his good deeds, he also seems like someone who would throw June to the wolves, if necessary.

[EssieMay]

On 6/8/2019 at 10:09 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

So - Handmaids are forbidden from wearing contacts?  Is that true?  They're not that noticeable........ I guess, where the hell would Handmaids get them and keep them, right?? 

I don’t think you need good vision to be a walking womb and “read” the IKEA signs at the market.

[Dobian]

 

 

 

On 6/13/2019 at 6:42 AM, echo.Echo.ECHO said:

I think that Elisabeth Moss is actually a very good actress, but I imagine that it is terribly difficult to portray the same emotion repeatedly without words and other motion to help. What I mean is that I think that she can face-act (and I know I've seen her do it well before, but at the moment, I couldn't tell you where) but I also think that having to face-act the same scene over and over and over has to be difficult for the actress -- and of course it gets really old for the audience.

Well she did that a lot in Mad Men.

[Hava]

On 6/6/2019 at 4:04 PM, nodorothyparker said:

The problem with so many of those scenes is that June is all gung-ho to be doing something that she wasn't listening to the women who have already been doing it telling her no, now is not a good time to be moving anyone. 

Yes, exactly this. It reminded me of some advice I have heard about resistance movements--that you should listen to and amplify the voices of people who are already in the movement.

I hate the depiction of June as someone "special"--she has this connection to Lawrence where she gets him to do things even though the Marthas have known him longer. She doesn't get sent away, but Cora does. I am fully expecting that the show will next show her becoming a leader of the resistance.

[smartymarty]

So how does the grocery store depict things like cinnamon and nutmeg on packages, when they'd look exactly the same? Sugar versus flour? Butter versus margarine?

[LavenderSunset]

I'm rewatching this season in preparation for Season 4 at the end of the month.  I am noticing SO many details that I missed the first time around! For example, Commander Lawrence's Martha, Beth, makes a comment to June about having her tubes tied and it's a good thing she can cook or she'd have been upstairs at Jezabel's instead of in the kitchen.  Wait, what?  Sure enough, there she is in Season 1 at Jezabel's.  She's the Martha that Nick talks to and she tries to kiss him and he says "not tonight".  In a later episode, Beth cooks him dinner while he waits for Fred and June to finish at Jezabel's.  She notices that Nick likes the handmaid.  So she must know who June is, even if June never met her.  And they've both slept with Nick.  Interesting.