S02.E12: Through the Valley of Shadows

[Clanstarling]

16 minutes ago, wmdekooning said:

My somewhat incorrect belief was that not all of the Klingons changed their appearance to look like TOS Klingons, and that those Klingons we saw in that series were akin to "sleeper cells". They were favored to engage the Federation at that time because they looked more human.

However according to the Wikipedia entry...

I never knew there was an explanation, I left it at Worf's "we don't talk about it" and never thought of it again. I was happy with the amusing mystery.

[Latverian Diplomat]

11 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I never knew there was an explanation, I left it at Worf's "we don't talk about it" and never thought of it again. I was happy with the amusing mystery.

Well one could just accept that it's a TV show, and times, budgets, and technologies change, or one could hypothesize that a terrible plague of Andorian Antennae Polio is about to strike the Federation as well. 🙂

[wmdekooning]

19 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

Well one could just accept that it's a TV show, and times, budgets, and technologies change, or one could hypothesize that a terrible plague of Andorian Antennae Polio is about to strike the Federation as well. 🙂

Well, at the time of "Trials and Tribbleations" I think the ST fanbase was (finally) willing to handwave the appearance thing and "We don't discuss it with outsiders."

There was a short story in a Star Trek book (I read decades ago) that kind of laid out some sort of plague/genetic tinkering giving rise to that more Terran looking Klingon. The book "Rules of Engagement" (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Engagement) seems to delve further into this, but books are not canon...

[marinw]

On 4/7/2019 at 6:39 PM, paigow said:

Red Angel: Spock, many years from now, you will encounter the S.S. Botany Bay... No matter what your captain says, accidentally fire a full spread of photon torpedoes at it.... 

Temporal Integrity Minion: Sir, I have detected a temporal incursion that will wipe out a series of 20th century movies....

This raises an interesting ethical question: who decides which timeline is the "Right" one? 

[wmdekooning]

51 minutes ago, marinw said:

This raises an interesting ethical question: who decides which timeline is the "Right" one? 

My immediate answer is that "time" decides, and that whatever happens, "time" ensures that it happens. You could attempt something as push a ball off its' course/direction and "time" would either set up an alternate event to insure continuity or make that ball make an improbable course correction to ensure that continuity.

Countervailling theory is that the ball goes off course, a second timeline with new events starts, branching off the first, while the first timeline continues as it would. 

ST (as well as other "timey-wimey" fictions) plays fast and loose with both. In this instance, re: Pike winding up as melted flesh on top of a Roomba with minimal communicating ability seems to be one of those "fixed" continuities that "time" will always make improbable course corrections to ensure...

[tpel]

Okay, so I'm totally in love with Pike now. 

There were things about the episode that were annoying: I was willing to hand-wave the time crystals in the Mudd episode, because it was kind of a humorous episode. But now, yeah, I want a better explanation. And Michael wanting to go after Leland because (1) his carelessness 20 years ago contributed to her parents' "death", and (2) he is control's puppet? These two things are incompatible. The guy who is culpable in the parents' fates is likely dead, and he is not culpable for Control's actions using his body. 

Back to Pike ❤️   He saw that he has a truly awful future in store for him. We knew it all along; now he knows too. But now, instead of just bad luck or the result of a knee-jerk impulse to help the cadets, his sacrifice is a considered decision. He was absolutely horrified by his future, but freely chose to lock it in. There may be examples of greater nobility and strength of character in Star Trek, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Anson Mount was amazing. His freak-out in the cave and then talking himself through his decision for moral reasons was superb. And his scene later with L'Rel and Tyler, where he is trying to explain things to them but is clearly still deeply traumatized . . . wow!

[Athena5217]

On 4/5/2019 at 3:56 AM, dwmarch said:

Good news: the Federation has a medical device that instantly cures hangnails! Bad news: it's super-intense and kind of painful if you aren't precise with it, sort of like Section 31's dual-action eyball scanner and poker.

I would have expected hangnails and ingrown hairs vaccination s by the 23rd century.

This show needs a lot more scenes like the one between Reno and Hugh. Character development of everyone but Michael has been sacrificed in favor of convoluted plots. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Athena5217
corrected typo

[marinw]

15 hours ago, wmdekooning said:

ST (as well as other "timey-wimey" fictions) plays fast and loose with both. In this instance, re: Pike winding up as melted flesh on top of a Roomba with minimal communicating ability seems to be one of those "fixed" continuities that "time" will always make improbable course corrections to ensure...

"Always in motion, the future"

-Yoda

[paigow]

13 hours ago, tpel said:

Back to Pike ❤️   He saw that he has a truly awful future in store for him...

But maybe he also creates the Kobayashi Maru simulation before the "accident"...

[aemom]

12 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

This show needs a lot more scenes like the one between Reno and Hugh. Character development of everyone but Michael has been sacrificed in favor of convoluted plots. 

YES!  I agree 100%.

This is not a spoiler - just me thinking in the shower - I wonder if how they explain how we never hear of Michael Burnham in the future is that when all this time-travel-crystal-hocus-pocus-series is all over, that she winds up never having existed.

[marinw]

“Spare me your egotistical musings on your pivotal role in galactic history. Nothing you do here will cause the Federation to collapse or the Universe or explode. To be blunt, you’re not that important.”

Q to Picard. “Tapestry”

I think this quote is relevant as it pertains to Pike. If Pike avoids the training cruise, the onboard accident, or avoids serious injury, how huge a difference would that make? Kirk will still be captain of the Enterprise, and Spock will still be his Science/First Officer. The main difference is that The Enterprise wouldn’t return to Talos IV. There is also whatever changes a post training criuse able-bodied Pike would make to this timeline.

 If Pike dies of his injuries, then the timeline would be quite similar to the present cannon, minas the event of “The Menagerie.”

If the timeline is already “set” I’m fangirling that in the future Vina and Pike leave Talos, go into the Magic Mushroom Dimension that regenerated Dr. Hugh, and return young and healthy.

Edited April 10, 2019 by marinw

[Ottis]

I love Pike. While the show is overly trying to make Michael the hero, Pike just keeps quietly doing the right thing.

Thought the part with Hugh and the engineer was icky. Who is she to tell the New Hugh to "not mess it up" and go back to Stammets? That seemed wrong.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, Ottis said:

Thought the part with Hugh and the engineer was icky. Who is she to tell the New Hugh to "not mess it up" and go back to Stammets? That seemed wrong.

Maybe the LGBTQ population on Discovery = 3.... So Culber has no other fish in the sea to choose from....

[Ottis]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Maybe the LGBTQ population on Discovery = 3.... So Culber has no other fish in the sea to choose from....

Maybe, but life is bigger than Discovery. I’ve been expecting Hugh to transfer out. Find his happiness. 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Maybe, but life is bigger than Discovery. I’ve been expecting Hugh to transfer out. Find his happiness. 

Has the Fleet been rebuilt adequately since the war ended? Or are only Enterprise & Discovery space-worthy? 

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Has the Fleet been rebuilt adequately since the war ended? Or are only Enterprise & Discovery space-worthy? 

Not sure, but if so, that would suck. I don't really even know why the show has the Hugh/Stammets plot line now. When they were a couple, great. They each had strengths and were working members of the crew who we could see as part of the team. Now we mostly see them pass by, Stammets looking wistful and Hugh appearing somewhere between defiant and thoughtful. Their relationship, or what's left of it, is played as important as their roles on the crew - more important, lately. It's weird. Either put them back together, or have them move on. That's why I figured Hugh would leave ... go civilian, whatever. And maybe he comes back later in a different plot.

It contrasts so much with Pike, who is simultaneously leading the team while also connecting dos to canon. And of course Michael, who I like and yet I have to admit is a snowflake. Her comment to Ash about wishing Ash told her he had a son "so you didn't have to carry the burden alone" almost made me barf. Michael, it's not about you!

[Ottis]

On 4/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, tpel said:

Back to Pike ❤️   He saw that he has a truly awful future in store for him. We knew it all along; now he knows too. But now, instead of just bad luck or the result of a knee-jerk impulse to help the cadets, his sacrifice is a considered decision. He was absolutely horrified by his future, but freely chose to lock it in. There may be examples of greater nobility and strength of character in Star Trek, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Exactly. And if you like Mount, and haven't seen Hell on Wheels, you're in for a treat.

[LittleIggy]

On 4/10/2019 at 10:57 AM, aemom said:

YES!  I agree 100%.

This is not a spoiler - just me thinking in the shower - I wonder if how they explain how we never hear of Michael Burnham in the future is that when all this time-travel-crystal-hocus-pocus-series is all over, that she winds up never having existed.

Oh, yes, please! Make it so!

[Clanstarling]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:57 AM, aemom said:

YES!  I agree 100%.

This is not a spoiler - just me thinking in the shower - I wonder if how they explain how we never hear of Michael Burnham in the future is that when all this time-travel-crystal-hocus-pocus-series is all over, that she winds up never having existed.

I had a similar, but slightly different shower thought - what if she goes back and rescues her mother and father (and childhood self) so she's never orphaned, and doesn't go to Vulcan, and perhaps never even joins Star Fleet.

[jah1986]

23 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I had a similar, but slightly different shower thought - what if she goes back and rescues her mother and father (and childhood self) so she's never orphaned, and doesn't go to Vulcan, and perhaps never even joins Star Fleet.

This has been my thought for a while now. That if Michael saves her parents, there's no reason for her to ever have any serious interaction with Spock/Vulcans.  She may still join Starfleet but would be just another officer as far as Spock and his canon is concerned.

[John Potts]

So instead of personal drama revolving around Michael... we get personal drama revolving around Michael's ex. And hey, we even got a dining scene where we actually got to meet the other members of the crew! I guess it's a start (nearly 2 Seasons in).

Is being Klingon Chancellor a part time job? Does she have time amongst running the Empire to nip off for a quick rendez vous with her ex whenever she wants? Is there something wrong with subspace chats? I guess they're more expensive and awkward to shoot, but it doesn't really make much sense.

I get that we needed a dramatic reveal, but how likely was it that Michael's shuttle would run into one of the dead bodies. Space (as Douglas Adams) put it, is big - really big. The odds of hitting a body (even a planetary sized, let alone a human sized one!) are literally astronomical. And the odds of finding a single survivor who happens to know you are so mindbogglingly unlikely they should have been instantly suspicious, like I was (OK, I thought the AI would be hiding in the suit's electronics, not in the man himself, but the point still stands). And this is Spock, who will happily quote the odds to Kirk whenever he attempts something insane!

Like the callback to The Cage with Pike's vision. And dammit, that was heroic where he committed to his mission even believing it would leave him crippled.

On 4/5/2019 at 5:33 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

About the Section 31 ships gathering around Discovery, why not use the spore drive ?

Yes! I get that running is not a long term strategy, but it serves in the short term. They can even run into a different Universe if necessary (though that's probably a bad idea)! And running still leaves the option of self destruct, as a last resort.

On 4/6/2019 at 11:29 PM, cambridgeguy said:

At the very least, I'm stunned he didn't come up with a statement saying that he'd prefer death to being a complete invalid.  That's a fate worse than death, in my opinion.

Agreed. I guess TPTB don't want to discuss the ethics of euthanasia (even if it's come up in Trek before a couple of times)? Though both times I can think of they were against it (Ethics and Half a Life).

[Idiotboy]

By taking the time crystal even though he knew it meant embracing a horrific fate, Pike graduated to the status of tragic hero in the Classical sense. Another reason why he has surpassed Janeway as my second-favorite Starfleet captain. (Picard reigns supreme.) And it means that Strange New Worlds will be Must-See TV at our house.

[marinw]

Will Pike spend SNW avoiding training cruises? Getting the best lawyer in the Federation to write an extremely specific living will?