S04.E10: The Children

[Shadowlass]

The Mountain.

 

Heh. I wondered if I should include a disclaimer in my post, because I don't think that's the same thing at all. He was really messed up, but still in good enough condition to crush my boyfriend's head at the end of that episode, and this was the very next episode that took place in King's Landing (where he's had access to medical care). Posters speculated that he might have died, but it wasn't implied. There was at least a reasonable chance that he was still alive.

[arry the orphan]

Was the roots-guy an Old God? The Starks pray to the old gods and these trees with faces and now we find a wizard (seer?) hanging around in the roots of the Mother of Trees and with the powerful magic fairies.

[abelard]

Oh I forgot to add to my earlier list of Stark-Baratheon alliances: Arya-Gendry!!  Gendry didn't know at the time that he was a Baratheon, but I love that after Ned and Robert are both dead, we see their loyalty to each other play out in Arya-Gendry and the quick scene of Jon Snow-Stannis (and who knows, there may be a bit more of that next season).

[izabella]

I don't know why, but I found it hilarious when Stannis popped up North of the Wall just all of a sudden like that. 

[WhiteStumbler]

There had been some hints, but it was pretty amusing to see His Royal Dourness striding thru the snow.

Stannis pouting at Dragonstone is, admittedly, not real compelling. Stannis doing shit? Man I love that guy. Indomitable.

Truly, the War is not over if Stannis is still in the field.

Edited June 17, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[Pallas]

Stannis pouting at Dragonstone is, admittedly, not real compelling. Stannis doing shit? Man I love that guy. Indomitable.

 

Stannis's rigor and his superiority in the field: it does make the overwhelming support that the People's Prince Renly garnered against him, seem a sad sign of the times.  On the other hand, Renly himself made the excellent point to Ned: "Can you still believe that good soldiers make for good Kings?"  

 

Not a quandary to be solved by the older generation.  The youngsters are proving to have their own way of getting shit done.  

[Llywela]

Something that occurred to me this morning - it must have been such a fillip for Stannis, after all his huffing and puffing over his claim to rightful kingship while growing steadily more isolated, to meet a complete stranger who immediately says, "Yes, I know you're the rightful king, of course you are," without a second's hesitation, no question and no doubt. He's been waiting for that kind of acknowledgement ever since he received Ned's letter way back when.

 

Jon's parentage makes sense of it, of course, once explained, but still. That acknowledgement is significant, to Stannis.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Something that occurred to me this morning - it must have been such a fillip for Stannis, after all his huffing and puffing over his claim to rightful kingship while growing steadily more isolated, to meet a complete stranger who immediately says, "Yes, I know you're the rightful king, of course you are," without a second's hesitation, no question and no doubt. He's been waiting for that kind of acknowledgement ever since he received Ned's letter way back when.

 

You know it's past time for a rewatch when that scene confuses me - what? Why is Jon Snow so readily accepting of Stannis as king??? I am so used to thinking of Stannis as a wannabe, I had forgot the whole mess with Ned trying to support his claim as Robert's brother. Not sure who I was thinking WAS the rightful king/queen though... As I'm not sure I'm on Team Dany anymore after her exiling Jorah! (And chaining up her BABIES! WTH!!!)

[Llywela]

Why is Jon Snow so readily accepting of Stannis as king???

Because Ned said it was so. ;) Seriously, though, the whole meaning of kingship is something the show has been exploring from the start. What makes someone a king?

 

Robert was king. The discovery that he was not the father of Cersei's children means that he left no direct heir, so, according to the letter of the law, rule should pass to his oldest brother, Stannis. This is what Stannis believes and this is what Ned believed. It isn't a stretch at all for me to believe that Jon also believes it - not just because a) he is Ned's son and believes in the same principles, and b) he is Ned's son and trusts his father's judgement, but also because c) he is Ned's son and doesn't want his father to have died for nothing. Ned died, at least in part, because of his belief that Stannis was the next rightful king. And so Jon believes it also.

 

But then again, simply being the rightful next in line does not make a man king (just ask Robert Curthose, oldest son of William the Conqueror, who saw the throne pass to his younger brother simply because William Jr got there first and had more support). First Joffrey and now Tommen became king after Robert, while Stannis stewed in his righteous indignation, because they were on the spot and had powerful support to back their claim.

 

But then again, go back...what, about 20 years or so, and none of these people had any claim on the throne at all. The Targaryens were the rulers. They were cast down by a revolt of their subjects and their line remain the rightful rulers of Westeros - or so Daenerys believes. And as her power grows, will her claim one day come to be seen as the strongest? Time will tell.

 

Plus let's not forget that the Targaryens themselves ruled through right of conquest, originally.

 

So what makes someone king? Being able to convince the majority of other people is a pretty good start, from what we've seen!

Edited June 17, 2014 by Llywela

[WhiteStumbler]

...it does make the overwhelming support that the People's Prince Renly garnered against him, seem a sad sign of the times.

Remember the words of Cat in S2E3 What Is Dead May Never Die --

Cat: It's a game to you, isn't it? I pity them... because it won't last. Because they are the knights of summer and winter is coming.

 

Who could lead the 7K against the Evil Beyond The Wall? Cersei? Mace Tyrell? Tommen? Littlefinger? Balon? Walder F*cking Frey? Maybe Roose Bolton has the intelligence and leadership to be an effective commander in hard times, but (like Stannis) he comes with his own baggage -- Ramsay, and w/o the voice of reason of Ser Davos.

 

... As I'm not sure I'm on Team Dany anymore after her exiling Jorah! (And chaining up her BABIES! WTH!!!)

Sort of ironic for the "Breaker of Chains", wasn't it? Even knowing it was all CGI, I was very moved by the scene where she puts the dragons in chains and locks her babies away. Ugh.

[Llywela]

Sort of ironic for the "Breaker of Chains", wasn't it? Even knowing it was all CGI, I was very moved by the scene where she puts the dragons in chains and locks her babies away. Ugh.

Laden with irony indeed, and yet what else could she do? She had to take action before anyone else died, because Dany does not want to see innocent people suffering, and also because she is the ruler and it is her job to protect those people, even from her own beloved dragons. Only one is known to have attacked a person so far (the one she can't find) but that doesn't mean the others won't follow suit in time, and if they were left free, if she weren't seen to be taking action to prevent further attacks, the people would learn to be afraid of her dragons and the seeds of dissent would be sown. Hers is a very fledgling administration and she wants to be seen as a just and benevolent ruler, so she's in a very tricky position. Hopefully this is merely an interim measure until she can find a better solution, but really, steps did have to be taken. Poor dragons!

Edited June 17, 2014 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

Remember the words of Cat in S2E3 What Is Dead May Never Die --

Cat: It's a game to you, isn't it? I pity them... because it won't last. Because they are the knights of summer and winter is coming.

Who could lead the 7K against the Evil Beyond The Wall? Cersei? Mace Tyrell? Tommen? Littlefinger? Balon? Walder F*cking Frey? Maybe Roose Bolton has the intelligence and leadership to be an effective commander in hard times, but (like Stannis) he comes with his own baggage -- Ramsay, and w/o the voice of reason of Ser Davos.

Sort of ironic for the "Breaker of Chains", wasn't it? Even knowing it was all CGI, I was very moved by the scene where she puts the dragons in chains and locks her babies away. Ugh.

First bold part - I can't help but think that Roose & Ramsay would be out of their element against the WW and The zombonies because, well, I'm pretty sure a flayed zomboni still has one hell of a lot of secrets. I don't see much skin on the WW either.

;-)

As for the 2nd bold part, I thought the irony wasn't lost on Dany. She didn't take the steps needed regarding her first wayward babe - and Jorah had tried to warn her - so now she is doing what she can to protect "her" people before the other two follow suit. It clearly hurt her to do it, but she had to decide if she was to be a queen or just another person who only cared about her own power.

Tywin let his Mountain "monster" loose to satisfy both their lusts. Dany has taken the harder choice.

ETA. Llywela said pretty much what I was thinking. It took me longer. I'm fighting with my iPad about spelling. NO iPad, Roose is NOT Roosevelt!

Edited June 17, 2014 by Anothermi

[abelard]

Robert was king. The discovery that he was not the father of Cersei's children means that he left no direct heir, so, according to the letter of the law, rule should pass to his oldest brother, Stannis. This is what Stannis believes and this is what Ned believed. It isn't a stretch at all for me to believe that Jon also believes it - not just because a) he is Ned's son and believes in the same principles, and b) he is Ned's son and trusts his father's judgement, but also because c) he is Ned's son and doesn't want his father to have died for nothing. Ned died, at least in part, because of his belief that Stannis was the next rightful king. And so Jon believes it also.

 

Well said, well said.  I wish we had gotten a little bit more of Lord Mormont and Aegon Targeryen and Jon Snow piecing together what had happened with Ned.  Or perhaps Robb sent some detailed letters explaining the situation.  I was a bit surprised that Jon had such a solid understanding of the politics surrounding Ned's death (I guess that's how much faith I put in Jon Snow's ability to get complex politics, ha!).  But Mormont and Maester Aegon would have well understood all the ins and outs of what happened in KL, and it does seem like Robb and Jon were in contact via raven before the Red Wedding.  Anyway, yes, Jon knows why Ned died and knows that Stannis's rightful inheritance was important to Ned.  It was The Truth and it was the truth that Ned died for.  So Stannis is Jon's King.  Robb also would have gladly supported Stannis if Stannis had allowed the North to secede.

 

Hopefully this is merely an interim measure until she can find a better solution, but really, steps did have to be taken. Poor dragons!

 

Poor dragons indeed!  I don't know why they had to be chained up in the catacombs.  Couldn't they be kept outside, in a big courtyard somewhere?  Dany is now ruler of Mereen, is there literally nowhere outside in Mereen she could figure out to keep them?  I suppose there would always be danger if someone just happened to get within firebreath-shot of the dragons, they could barbecue them accidentally.  But I had this terrible thought that if the dragons stay in the dark for too long, they might go blind!  (I know they won't, b/c Show will need them in the final battle against the WW, but still.)

[ChocButterfly]

I thought she was going to locked them in the catacombs, but not chain them. It looked pretty spacious down there and they could even fly a little. What was the purpose of the chains if she closed the catacombs?

 

Anyway, I'm sure this was temporary, while she builds some sort of Dragon Santuarium or reservation. She surely has the gold and the man power. Hey, it could even give work to all those freed slaves with nothing to do.

 

Either way, it was the right call. Just because those 2 haven't killed anyone yet, doesn't mean they won't. People are more important. She should have gotten The Dragon Whisperer when Blackie started showing aggressiveness. She should have shown him she was the Leader of the Pack. Did they mention Blackie' s name?

Edited June 18, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[Pallas]

Poor dragons indeed!  I don't know why they had to be chained up in the catacombs. -- abelard

 

Oh!  Parallel: the kerfuffle about Podrick's not successfully hobbling the horses.  The chains, I'm guessing, so that they don't hide deeper in the catacombs and/or find an escape route.  It seems the beta dragons will have to suffer the result of the alpha's aggressiveness -- and Dany's delay in schooling them.  Dany called the alpha "Drogon" when she asked where he'd been seen.  At first I thought that was like naming a direwolf, Direwoof.  But, well: Drogo.    

 

Anyway, I'm sure this was temporary, while she builds some sort of Dragon Santuarium or reservation. -- ChocButterfly.

 

Danaerys Stormborn, Queen of the First Adopters: go online.  The good people of the Free City of Previously can help you build a Habitat.  They have excellent references.    

[stillshimpy]

Danaerys Stormborn, Queen of the First Adopters: go online. The good people of the Free City of Previously can help you build a Habitat. They have excellent references.

Quoted for both truth and humor and humor in truth.

[Coxfires]

Oh!  Parallel: the kerfuffle about Podrick's not successfully hobbling the horses.  The chains, I'm guessing, so that they don't hide deeper in the catacombs and/or find an escape route. 

 

Well, this and also the fact that they wouldn't be to happy to be locked and they have to be fed, so, better to have a way to keep them at bay when you go give them their food. I am not sure she is going to be able to lock Drogon here though, we don't know if dragons can communicate with one another, but I doubt he'll blindely follow Denaerys like the two others did when he sees them chained and seething in anger.

 

As for the rest of the episode, I really liked seeing Stannis' army coming into play up North, although I wouldn't have minded seeing where the so-called truce between Mance and the NW would have gone. Jon was far more intersting this year than any other season. I must admit that I was never convinced by Kit Harrington's acting, but he seems to improve (in my eye), although I agree with the poster who said that he could sometimes suck the energy of a scene, I hope he'll keep this trend next year. And that we'll have more of Mance/Stannis scenes, the ones we had being very good.

 

I never once thought Tyrion would die, so no surprise here, but there were still lots to love here: Tyrion/Jamie farewell, fantastic acting from both guys, NCW really made me feel Jamie's love for his little brother. Shae dying at Tyrion's hand, very, very powerful, and Tywin finally biting the dust (while pooing...arf). I will miss Charles Dance, though.

And of course, Varys getting on the boat with Tyrion. KL's storyline will definitely change, the change in the remaining players over there is massive. I wonder if LF will seize the opportunity to go meddle with things over there, and how Cersei/the Tyrells interactions will go.

 

I wasn't surprised by Arya's actions regarding the Hound. Her list is less about killing people herself than getting revenge in any way or form. Killing the Hound would have meant doing him a favor, but letting him die is her way to make him pay for Micah. That doesn't mean that I think it was "the right thing to do", but that it is consistent with her character's progression. There no much Arya as we met her left in this girl, she is well beyond repair.

 

For Arya and Tyrion, two people we met and that were soemwhat good people, I think the Show depicted very well the toll that war, loss and betrayal take on someone, and how it changes you. It is not "oh shit, they are dead" and then going on with your life like it was a minor event. 

 

Bran's storyline wasn't as interesting, but hey, he'll fly! Will he warg with Dragons now? When? How? The major problem with his SL is that it feels very, very slow. Not sure it will be super exciting with him and Old Dude in the tree cave.

 

The only downside of this episode was the Mountain's SL, I hated it. Not only didn't we get any reaction regarding Oberyn's death, but we have to suffer this crap about reviving a guy stabbed in the gut and poisoined? Pfff.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Coxfires

[ChocButterfly]

So I'm re watching the episode and I notice that in the scene with the root old man the floor is full of skulls and bones, creepy! Where do all these bones come from? Is this old man eating people or something? Why would there be bones around?

[Pallas]

Where do all these bones come from?

 

My guess is that many people have been buried underneath or near the tree.  The zombonies were people once...before they were interred dead folk.   

[gingerella]

My guess is that many people have been buried underneath or near the tree.  The zombonies were people once...before they were interred dead folk.

Maybe there is a connection between the dead bones under the tree and the skeleton zombonies?

[stillshimpy]

Maybe the skeletons are of people who tried to lay siege to Root Dude's Abode?

I'm just thinking about almost every Deep in the Lair of the _______ story ever, like "Why the sea is salt" or anyone looking for a Grail and not starring in a Python movie there are always the fallen dead surrounding the area. It's usually to show that there is a force with which to reckon. Perhaps Root Dude /King Root must be killed for Winter to Come at long last?

Edited June 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

I thought I had already posted this...

 

Maester Lewin wanted to die under the werewood. Maybe there is a tradition of putting a person's remains under the tree and then the remains get pulled into the roots for nourishment.

 

Did that creepy root system remind anyone of the True Detective finale?

Edited June 19, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[ChocButterfly]

All good guesses, guys; but I didn't know there were any people around to be buried. I mean, I thought Bran and company had traveled farther away than any Wildling camp. There certainly didn't seem to be anything around. Plus if people had been burying their dead under that tree, they would have found Root guy by now, it's not like he's that deep. Plus, yuck, Root guy has been living submerged in a pile of roting corpses???

 

Can Root guy move? He doesn't even look that old. I don't know, the more I think about this plot, the less I like it. I do like the Children, though. Or the idea of them, because I think having a kid in a stupid costume didn't do anything for me. They should look a bit more elfish or something. Heck, even Jojen looked more like some preternatural creature that's roaming the woods and that could be 1000 years old. That little kid throwing fireballs just looked stupid.

[Llywela]

Perhaps the skeletons are that old, dating back to a time when the area wasn't so desolate and deserted?

 

I dunno. It's mystical. Mystical stuff in stories often doesn't make the slightest lick of sense when you start questioning the actual logistics (like when Buffy found that scythe in BtVS and almost immediately found a centuries old seer randomly hanging out under a mausoleum to tell her all about it), so it's generally best not to poke!

[90PercentGravity]

I don't know, the more I think about this plot, the less I like it.

I didn't care for it as soon as they got to the magic tree and skeleton armies and faerie kids started popping out. It just got way too fantasy video game for me. Will Bran be sent on a mission to rescue Princess Zelda next season?

[stillshimpy]

That scene with the Child of the Forest hurling fireballs reminded me of True Blood, when Sookie was in the Land of the Fae.  Coincidentally, that was the last season of True Blood I ever watched, but it wasn't because of that.  

 

Still, it was a weird moment of HBO Show Deja Vu.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Did that creepy root system remind anyone of the True Detective finale?

Nailed it -- Root Dude is The Yellow King! Come to think of it, Matthew McConaughey looked emaciated enough in True Detective to play a WW.

[gingerella]

Perhaps Root Dude IS the tree? Perhaps every Weirwood tree has a Root Dude underneath it because the tree actually emanated from a magical person long ago? That would explain why Weirwood trees always seem to have a human face on the outside..That still does not explain the bone pile under the root system though.

 

Some of you were spitballing a few weeks back about the Weirwood trees needing human blood to survive, and I thought that was a bit much, and gross to boot. What if the trees don't need human blood per se, but they need to essence of good beings or they live on other fallen comrades who possess magical powers?  Or believe in magical powers?  Are any of these spitballs sticking to the Wall, or are they just sliding down slowly like sad pathetic wads of used chewing gum?

[stillshimpy]

Perhaps Root Dude IS the tree? Perhaps every Weirwood tree has a Root Dude underneath it because the tree actually emanated from a magical person long ago? That would explain why Weirwood trees always seem to have a human face on the outside..That still does not explain the bone pile under the root system though -gingerella.

 

Ooooh that is an awesome speculation! gingerella, that would not only be cool, it would make the human faces make actual sense.  So maybe there is another Root Dude at Winterpile.  Get Bolton, Winterpile Root Dude, get 'im!  Poison the well!! Cause a sinkhole of great proportions.  There must always be a Stark at Winterfell, but what happens when there isn't?  

[izabella]

There must always be a Stark at Winterfell, but what happens when there isn't?

 

Winter Actually Comes?

[gingerella]

Was it the Winterfell Maester who wanted to die at the foot of the Weirwood tree at Winterfell? I cannot remember who that was, but wasn't it when he sent away Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor? Wasn't he dying by the foot of the tree? Maybe that's why he wanted to die there, because he knew his powers and knowledge would nourish the Winterfell Weirwood tree?

[Anothermi]

Gingerella:

Perhaps Root Dude IS the tree? Perhaps every Weirwood tree has a Root Dude underneath it because the tree actually emanated from a magical person long ago? That would explain why Weirwood trees always seem to have a human face on the outside..That still does not explain the bone pile under the root system though.

If he were Dread Pirate Root Guy it would!

[gingerella]

Ooooh that is an awesome speculation! gingerella, that would not only be cool, it would make the human faces make actual sense.  So maybe there is another Root Dude at Winterpile.  Get Bolton, Winterpile Root Dude, get 'im!  Poison the well!! Cause a sinkhole of great proportions.  There must always be a Stark at Winterfell, but what happens when there isn't?  

Yeah, but if that's true, it still doesn't answer WHY these trees exist in the first place. Maybe the Weirwood trees were some sort of Early Warning System, magical wizards who ended up giving up their life on earth as humans, to become the trees that protect the North from the evil that lives beyond the Wall? I dunno...just guessing because the Wall has been there for what, thousands of years now? So for eons, people living South of the Wall have feared what lives on the other side and wanted to keep it out of their world. Perhaps long ago, these trees came into being to provide information and warning of what was happening North of the Wall (maybe they also control the 3-eyed ravens as their means to telegraph information they are seeing, since as a tree they are stationary beings)? I mean, we've seen these trees in Winterfell, but also North of the Wall, so how did they come into being? Sam was studying the history of wizards when we first met him, wasn't he? If so, maybe some Northern wizards got together eons ago, long before our characters were born or their grandparents were born, and this was their solution to save the North from WWs, etc. This obviously belongs in the Magic realm of A Cube, but how did the trees originate? That's more interesting to ponder to me right now, than who The Children are...though perhaps The Children are enlightened offspring who can move about outside the tree, to protect it when it's being threatened by evil forces? But then those skeleton zombies confuse the hell out of me...Maybe they are evil things that tried to harm the trees and were vanquished by The Children?

 

Uch, my head hurts thinking about this stuff.

[WhiteStumbler]

Looks like it has been pretty quiet around here, but, in case anyone is still checking in, I had to pop back in with something I noticed when I rewatched last night -- when Brienne and Pod meet Arya and the Hound, Brienne says "Seven Blessings. I'm Brienne of Tarth, this is Podrick Payne."

 

So our Pod is a relative of Ilyn Payne, the King's Executioner?!? Whoa, Nelly! Unless "Payne" is a "bastard" name from one of the Kingdoms, like Sand or Snow?

[RadiantAerynSun]

on the subject of "who/what is Root Guy" - could he be one of the FIrst Men? or one of the Old Gods?

[stillshimpy]

So our Pod is a relative of Ilyn Payne, the King's Executioner?!? Whoa, Nelly! Unless "Payne" is a "bastard" name from one of the Kingdoms, like Sand or Snow?

 

You know, we actually did know that, WhiteStumbler when Tyrion meets Poderick and takes him on as his squire he's introduced as Poderick Payne (and kind of treated like he's considered the weirdo of King's Landing, or maybe as if he's less than bright, or a perpetual screw-up, or something...but he was considered worthy of being squire to a Lannister, so it's unlikely that he's illegitimate). 

Edited July 1, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

on the subject of "who/what is Root Guy" - could he be one of the FIrst Men? or one of the Old Gods?

Someone up thread (or another thread) was also wondering if Old Root Guy might be one of the Old Gods. (sorry, forgot who)  I guess it might be possible as this is Fantasy.  But, if he starts making "rules" he's out of the running for that position because Ned pointed out in Season One that Catelyn's New Gods are the ones with all the rules.  ;-P

 

However, IIRC he's been there longer than most human lifetimes which makes it difficult to imagine he is one of the First Men either.  I see them as just ancestors our characters may/may not have descended from, not members of the magical group that seems to be making a comeback. 

 

So, the Old God Theory may have Roots (hee).  I presume the tree Bran "communed" with didn't have it's own Old Root Guy, but that Old Root Guy connects with believers via the Weir-wire system.  The Weirwood Trees don't seem to exist in the South of Westeros, and although we don't know which came 1st - the loss of belief or the loss of the trees - if Old Root Guy connects via those trees he'd be out of luck sending a message to Southerners.

 

Lots of scope for speculation with these Ideas, RAS.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

The Weirwood Trees don't seem to exist in the South of Westeros, and although we don't know which came 1st - the loss of belief or the loss of the trees

We saw Sansa praying in a kind of garden grove in King's Landing a few times. Was there an actual tree there? It was definitely a sacred grove of some kind, a relic of the old religion, because she could rely on not being disturbed while praying there.

[Anothermi]

I have a memory of seeing her praying at the stump of a Weirwood tree.  It was either cut down or just dead.  It certainly didn't have the lovely white bark and red leaves like the ones in the North and I do recall some discussion back on TWoP about the state of that tree. Also, for some reason that I can't justify at this time, I thought we learned that there were no - or hardly any - Weirwood trees in the south which is where my statement came from. I carry around the notion that they were done away with (burned or chopped down), as the religion of The Seven took hold in the South, much like any religious icons of the losing religion in the battle for supremacy. That, however, I'm pretty sure is my own notion, not one we were told about.

 

There is so much in this story that in only 4 seasons it has become hard to remember what we learned and when we learned it. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

We saw Sansa praying in a kind of garden grove in King's Landing a few times. Was there an actual tree there? It was definitely a sacred grove of some kind, a relic of the old religion, because she could rely on not being disturbed while praying there.

 

I do think she said something about "going to pray in the godswood" after being all weepy about her dead family to Tyrion this season.

[WhiteStumbler]

Thanks, shimpy. I had missed / overlooked the fact that Pod is a Payne until I re-watched. It seems unlikely that it would be a coincidence that he has the same last name as Ilyn, but almost equally unlikely that Pod would be related to the King's Executioner, and no one would remark on that fact somewhere along the way.

[stillshimpy]

but almost equally unlikely that Pod would be related to the King's Executioner, and no one would remark on that fact somewhere along the way.

 

Maybe it's a case of the Kingdom being choc full of Paynes in the same way there have to be a zillion Lannisters?  When Jaime killed his cousin in order to be able to escape from Robb Stark's camp, the Lannister cousin told a story about the best day of his life was when he served as Jaime's squire.  That they ate some unimportant table in the back, as they always did .   The Kingdom seems lousy with Lannisters. 

 

Admittedly, you'd think it would get mentioned when Tyrion was under threat of death, except that one of the first things Tyrion did to protect Pod was send him away.  It doesn't seem as if Tyrion would have said anything like, "You were the best and truest squire, Poderick, now get the hell of here before you third cousin twice removed cuts off my head" as he was having a difficult enough time convincing Pod to leave as it was. 

 

I don't know, why would it get mentioned if everyone knows it already?  Unless it was to torment Poderick with it.  Brienne isn't the tormenting type.  Llyne Payne had his tongue cut out by the Mad King (right?  It wasn't Robert who did that) and he was Robert's executioner.  He seemed a very eager executioner actually, but it's not as if he says anything ever.   

 

Nobody really talks to Poderick other than Tyrion.  If Executioner Payne is simply just a distant cousin, why would it be mentioned?  The only sorts that would are people like Cersei and Jaime.  Cersei absolutely would have tried to grind that in for Tyrion.  That his loyal squire's ______ (uncle, cousin, etc) would be his executioner, but she didn't speak to Tyrion at all after the great finger-pointing and descent into (even more) anger. 

 

I sort of of got the feeling Poderick was a misfit in that world (I'm still not sure why he would be considered as such) and when Tyrion named him squire, he was at court for some reason.  I got the feeling that they were both sort of lesser members of a known house and I don't know that it would be all that remarkable.  Now that's all just guess work on my part, and for all I know Executioner Payne is Pod's dad, but if it was that close of a relationship, I think Poderick would have mentioned it himself. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Anothermi]

I agree that hearing that Podrick's last name is Payne doesn't necessarily mean he is closely related to, Ilyn, the tongueless executioner, but Ilyn is the ONLY Payne we've heard of, so it's kind of natural to make the link. There may be other Paynes.  Hundreds of them for all we know, but Ilyn is still the only one we've heard of to this point.

 

What I wonder... is there a purpose to having Pod and Ilyn be related? None that I can see right now, but I'll tuck that scrap of (possible) info away incase it has relevance later. This show does give us more than the occasional opportunity to excercise our "little grey cells" retreiving arcane information. 

 

shimpy:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I sort of of got the feeling Poderick was a misfit in that world (I'm still not sure why he would be considered as such) and when Tyrion named him squire, he was at court for some reason.

(This reminds me that I'm going to have to do a series re-watch at some point because...)

I don't remember Tyrion "naming" Pod as his squire.  I've been thinking that Tyrion "ended up" with Pod, but I guess the two concepts aren't antagonistic.  Tyrion may have chosen Pod because Pod was the only squire-age boy who would agree to BE Tyrion's squire?  I, too, got the impression that Poderick was considered a misfit, but can't remember how (I only have an image in my head of Cersei sneering - which could relate to almost anything else). Given what we've seen of him, his reputation seems related more to social standing rather than personality or intelligence.  That makes the possibility of Pod being from Ilyn Payne's family a lot stronger IMHO because distaste for certain families based on their job (sewer cleaner, undertaker, gravedigger...Official Killer... ) is not an unknown phenomenon.

 

Thanks WS for pointing out the possible (probable?) connection.  I happen to enjoy arcane factoids. 

Edited July 8, 2014 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

I don't remember Tyrion "naming" Pod as his squire.

 

Sorry, wasn't trying to be quite that literal about it, anothermi. 

 

Took Poderick on as his squire.  Into his service.  Whatever you wish to call it.  As far as I know there was no official naming either.  Tyrion saw Poderick being what appeared to be a cup-bearer, server of some sort.  Someone mentioned Poderick's name and seemed to be mocking him (just the tone, I don't remember the exact words) and the next thing we know?  Poderick is Tyrion's servant.  I didn't even realize he was his squire until Tyrion made with the "Best, truest most loyal...now get the hell out of here before someone hurts you" type of speech. 

 

I, too, got the impression that Poderick was considered a misfit, but can't remember how (I only have an image in my head of Cersei sneering - which could relate to almost anything else).

 

Yea, verily and ain't that the truth?  

Edited July 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[izabella]

I thought Pod killed someone during Blackwater who was trying to kill Tyrion (on Joffrey's orders?), and then Tyrion named him as his squire.  Or did he become squire and then killed the dude trying to kill Tyrion?  I'm so confused now.

[Anothermi]

Pod was serving Tyrion before the Blackwater assassination attempt.  There was a scene with Varys & Tyrion where Varys didn't want to speak in front of Pod, but Tyrion vouched for him.  This may have been the scene where I got the impression that Pod was a misfit - because Varys wasn't too impressed by him. Then when Pod saved Tyrion it was doubly impressive because no one expected him to be brave enough nor smart enough to do that - not to mention being that committed to Tyrion in a relatively short period of time.

 

The term Squire is giving me a bit of a problem because Pod was basically doing for Tyrion what Lancel had been doing for Robert - pouring his wine. Was Lancel Robert's squire? I think of squires as someone who assissts a lord in battle related things, or tournaments and the like. Pod is now acting as Brienne's squire and that includes both cooking AND taking care of horses and things.  Not that he is any good at it.  All he really needed to know to serve Tryion was how to pour wine. ;-)

Edited July 7, 2014 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

*screams quietly into a pillow knowing that I have only myself to blame for this*  Okay, so now that I am deeply regretting ever having written that friggin' sentence. 

 

 

 

The term Squire is giving me a bit of a problem because Pod was basically doing for Tyrion what Lancel had been doing for Robert - pouring his wine

 

Yes, but Tyrion referred to Pod as his squire when he said that no one had ever had a better one.  It's at the 45 minute mark in the third episode of this season.  Tyrion says, "Pod, there has never lived a more loyal squire...."  

Edited July 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

I'm guessing Podrick just wasn't known for being a very good squire in King's Landing, something he seems to be trying to prove wrong in his serving of Brienne (remember he wouldn't leave her bc he didn't want people to say he wasn't a very good squire lol) And then he failed to hobble the horses correctly in the last ep. Stuff like that. But while he wasn't a gifted squire in the field he was probably suitable enough for Tyrion's purposes, pouring wine mostly, and in his first episodes, was very quiet, so maybe he figured he'd keep mum because he was shy and kept to himself. He was suitable for Tyrion as a "squire" because he didn't actually go into battle, usually. Then he did serve as his squire in battle during Blackwater and thus was there to save him, proving his worth after all.

 

FWIW I do think Lancel was serving as a sort of squire to Robert although I think he mostly carried and poured wine for him also, even on his hunt... lol

[Anothermi]

*screams quietly into a pillow knowing that I have only myself to blame for this*  Okay, so now that I am deeply regretting ever having written that friggin' sentence. 

.............

Yes, but Tyrion referred to Pod as his squire when he said that no one had ever had a better one.  It's at the 45 minute mark in the third episode of this season.  Tyrion says, "Pod, there has never lived a more loyal squire...."  

Close your eyes and take a deep breath. (I'm trying to keep a straight face.  Sorry for making you crazy.)

 

I, for one, am not all that confused about the squire thing.  I actually thought of Pod as Tyrion's squire practically from the start. When you brought it up above, it got me thinking about what a squire should be and that had me (amusedly) questioning the Pod/Tyrion relationship in that context.

 

Tyrion got himself a squire after he became acting Hand. I'm pretty sure most Lords have squires come and go, but Pod seems to be Tyrion's first. Perhaps taking on Pod shows Tyrion was starting to take himself seriously at long last.  I thought even Jaime said he was somebody's squire at some point, so it seems to be a training passage for young boys.  I think Tyrion chose Pod because of his misfit status. One - he fit the "broken things" criteria and two - because he wasn't acceptable to others he was not likely to have loyalty to others which would make him more trustworthy from Tyrion's perspective.  

 

It's funny how discussions can veer of track like that.  My observation on your harmless sentence was just me letting my mind wander.  My main point was pondering the probability of Pod being a close relation of Ilyn Payne and the thought that that, in and of itself, could be the reason for Pod being a misfit. (and therefor likely to tick all the right boxes for Tryion.)

 

And at the risk of having already dug myself in too deep to crawl out, that is the last I will say about squires (but not about Podrick Payne).

[WhiteStumbler]

Jaime was a squire for Barristan Selmy. When A Show is over I would find reading an account of that difficult to resist.

Brilliant analysis on Tyrion's development as a person (and, lucky us, as a character) and Pod as an indicator of that. Well done -- Thanks.