Malia Tate: She Used to Run With Cougars

Gwen-Stacys · June 30, 2014

In my post above, I linked to two fairly well-known internet definitions of the term, but in case it wasn't clear in those, here are the typical traits of a Mary Sue:

1 - A Mary Sue tends to be a poorly written character dropped into the mix who;

2 - is usually dropped into the story (generally front and center) as a love interest or other significant attachment for one of the main characters - generally for the author/creator's favorite character (and yes, it can easily be argued that Stiles is a favorite of Jeff's based on things he's said over the years in interviews);

3 - and tends to have an unexpected relationship to one of the show's main families (surprise, Peter Hale's got a daughter!);

4 - and tends to have special abilities, and/or is extremely smart, popular, etc.;

5 - and tends to be loved by all of the main characters, and if she isn't, is usually portrayed that the other character is at fault in some way for not adoring her (eta: meant to add that JD has already mentioned in interviews that Scott and Stiles will love Malia, and so he's hoping the fans will, too);

6 - A Mary Sue tends to be quickly accepted by the core group of friends.

7 - and tends to be exotically beautiful, and often has an exotic or unusual name, unusual hair or eye color, etc.

8 - and often has a dramatic and unusual backstory. (D'uh.)

She sees herself as his mate. She may not be currently (as in, within the two months or so since Eichen House) having sex with him, but her relationship with Stiles is definitely being played as the potential love interest, whether or not they're having sex. They even mirrored the Stiles/Lydia kiss with Stiles/Malia when she was trying to focus. And there's the fact that she's Cora 2.0, who herself was only there to build a safe white heterosexual version of Sterek. There's no question she's meant to be the role of love interest.

Just because she sees herself as his mate doesn't mean anything. Some little 14 year olds see themselves in a relationship with Justin Beiber. The thing is that they're not and it's been expressly stated that they aren't and probably won't ever be this season at least. She has a lot to deal with, and while she likes Stiles, her reltaionship with him isn't a primary concern (as stated by Dylan and Jeff D.). And I'm with the poster above, I don't believe any of these chicks are meant to be a hetero-Derek. Malia doesn't have the same personality traits as Derek. Cora was close, maybe, but even she seemed a tad more emotional and reactionary than her older brother. So while I respect your views on that, I'm just gonna have to respectfully say that I disagree. I honestly don't think Jeff and co care too much about Sterek shippers outside of dropping them a bone here and there. And viewership=/=fandom when it comes to shipping at all. I'd even go so far as to say most viewers don't what the heck a Sterek is or that people expect Derek and Stiles to be together in any form.

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1. Most of the "introduced beyond the pilot" are poorly written, I'd say.

2. Lydia in the beginning wasn't anything more than Jackson's girlfriend, Stile's crush, and Allison's frenemy (she did kiss Scott even though she knew Allison liked him and they kinda had thing because she was jealous/wanted to be connected the alpha male). It wasn't until the end of the first season that she got an identity beyond girlfriend/mean girl. And then she was a banshee. Derek has the tragic/convoluted family background that connected him with Scott in the beginnnind (the house fire, his uncle was the one that bit Scott, his ex girlfriend was an Argent. I'd say he hit the trifecta) Malia has been in 2 episodes. If we're in the same boat come the end of the season, I'll probably agree with you. But I won't hate Malia. I love what I'm seeing from her so far.

3. This is also a Soap opera trope....Teen Wolf is little more than a furry soap opera with a smidge more cloat than Passions. I wouldn't call that Mary-suing her but just JD being lazy or trying to find a way to organically delve more into the Hale background.

4. Again, what special ability? We haven't seen her in a school setting, but what we have seen is that she hasn't bonded with anyone outside of Stiles and maybe Scott. Are you calling her popular because the show runners and co talk about her the most? I think that has more to do with her being a new series regular than any real favoritism. Kira has way more clips in the season preview than Malia, I'd say Kira will probably have more screen time than Malia will (especially with her playing Lacrosse now.) And she's not especially smart. Lydia (the high school genius still in high school) will be tutoring her because she is way behind and having trouble.

5. Scott loves everyone. Even people who kill Boyd. So I put no great stock in the loves of Scott McCall (I do love him and his puppyish self, though). Not to mention, they've already said that her coyote-like behavior is a turnoff to most. Doubt she's going to be winning prom queen soon (if JD goes that route, I don't even know...but now that I said it, I don't put it past him.)

6. Again, Scott accepts everyone. And he kind of owes her after he forced her to shift back into a human. Right now, she isn't geling with the pack as a whole. Part of her story-arc this season is her learning to become a team player.

7. I answered that one in post above. Malia for me (as an African-American) is not an exotic name. She's named after POTUS' daughter. She has brown hair and brown eyes. She's pretty, gorgeous even, but there's nothing particularly striking about her. She's not waif thin or small or helpless in the slightest. She's taller than almost everyone in the group (S.H. is only about 5'8-9"). She's not clumsy or even perceived as being right most of the time. So far, she's very seldom right.

8. No more so than Kira (who's mother is 900 years old and still looked to be about 16 about 70 or so years ago, who happens to be the kitsune that summoned the nogitsune because of the rage she felt over the injustice served to her people.)

I mentioned Lydia because she's often lauded as being this genius, but she's in the same classes as everyone else. No where is it stated that she's taking extra courses or special classes outside of school (as most high school students who excel greatly in certain subjects). There's no talk of her going to summer groups/camps to further this, but we're told and believe ( I suppose, for the most part) that she's going to go on and rock the academic community as an adult? She'd be lucky (even as smart as she is) to get into a good school, because she has no extracurricular activities that we've seen or even heard of outside of being a banshee. And I don't think that you can put that on a college app and be taken seriously. But I bet my last mint oreo cookie that she's going to get into some prestigious Ivy league school come their senior year. And....no.

My point is that some of the main character are poorly written in the grande scheme of things, so how can we expect a new one to be any better?

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ElleryAnne · June 30, 2014

Some little 14 year olds see themselves in a relationship with Justin Beiber.

But that's hardly the same thing. Those little 14 year olds aren't fictional characters being written to believe that by their author who wants them to be the realization of a bunch of awesome ideas he has in his head and wants to make happen with or without making any of it plausible within the very universe he himself has built. Hence Malia being Mary-Sueish while little beliebers are not. (Those little 14 year olds have horrible taste, but that's a different subject.)

And I'm with the poster above, I don't believe any of these chicks are meant to be a hetero-Derek. Malia doesn't have the same personality traits as Derek.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I think her similarities to Derek (everything from the were-beingness to the agressiveness,etc.) are apparent. They were apparent with Cora as well, but JD isn't even bothering to change it up anymore.

Lydia, etc., may not have started off completely fleshed out, but that's because JD was slowly developing who they were. That's a different process than what he's done with Malia, which is to stick her into the story in major ways with no explanation, but with major impact and major connections to the core characters. It's cheap and lazy writing on his part. (BTW - I agree it would make sense to see Lydia in advanced classes, but at least we learned over time that she was cautious at first about showing how smart she was, and that she was studying things on her own, like Latin.)

Again, what special ability?

Besides being a were-being (which is admittedly not unique on this show)? One who can already kick ass as a fighter and pick up behaviors around her well enough to mimic those behaviors? We know she's got special abilities that help her hear (or otherwise sense) what's around her beyond what humans can. She did a few things at Eichen House that an average girl can't do (including getting an unconscious Stiles down to the basement and possibly stealing some keys.) In a show with were-beings, the special abilities (and unusual eyes) don't stand out as much, but she has been given those things.

Malia for me (as an African-American) is not an exotic name.

I understand that. But as I mentioned, for TV/books it's not yet a common name. It qualifies as "unusual or exotic" in the media world where every third girl's name is Ashley, Brittany or Jenn. (I don't mean that to come across as insulting, btw, so please I hope you don't think I'm trying to do that. I come from a multi-ethnic background and a lot of names that are common in my family would qualify as unusual in the world of TV and books, as well.)

My point is that some of the main character are poorly written in the grande scheme of things, so how can we expect a new one to be any better?

True, none of them are written extremely well. But the writing for Malia sets a new low bar by far. JD simply wants a character who's a girl version of Derek (and some would say of Peter, as well)- that's his wish with this character - to have a snarky female Hale were-being to hook up with Stiles, and with each iteration of her he's trying less than before. The writing for her is worse than for the other characters because he's not taking the time to develop anything unique about her anymore. She's an idea that's already been in his head for a couple of seasons, and he's just tossing her out there with a more outlandish explanation (if you can even call it that) each time. I maintain that she's a Mary Sue, as well as a female Derek. I understand that not everyone agrees with that. But I believe it's true, and I've stated my reasons. We can all agree to respectfully disagree, of course. I guess we'll see as the season plays out just what she does turn out to be.

Gwen-Stacys · June 30, 2014

Hence Malia being Mary-Sueish while little beliebers are not. (Those little 14 year olds have horrible taste, but that's a different subject.)

But she's not Mary-suish is what I'm saying, she'sunderdeveloped. There's a very destinct difference. Mary-Sues are perfect, shiny-haired, self inserts. If you want a tv character turned into a Mary-Sue it's Elena Gilbert on Vampire Diaries. If you compare Elena and her golden vagina to what we've seen of Malia, you'll see what I'm saying. Is she completely wonderfully developed character a-la a Game of Thrones/The Walking Dead character? Fook no! But no one on this show is. Their motivations/characterizations change from episode to episode depending on what the show needs them to be in the moment.

I think her similarities to Derek (everything from the were-beingness to the agressiveness,etc.) are apparent.

Derek's aggressive because he has issues. We've seen how he was a young boy, and he was no where near as aggressive as he is now. But aggression is a Were-trait, as seen in Scott come season 1 before he became the werewolf-Jesus. Issaac was aggressive in the beginning, etc. And even so, Cora and Malia aren't as hands-on violent as Derek is. Malia hit Stiles because she was mad at him. And it was the equivalent to the "You did me wrong. I'm angry at you, how dare you try to come up and talk to me like we're cool" slap that happens in movies/tv shows/and real life. She even explains why she did it 2 scenes later. And that is the only time she's ever shown aggression towards anyone that wasn't threatening her in some way. She's been pretty chill. Blunt, but chill.

Lydia, etc., may not have started off completely fleshed out, but that's because JD was slowly developing who they were. That's a different process than what he's done with Malia, which is to stick her into the story in major ways with no explanation, but with major impact and major connections to the core characters. It's cheap and lazy writing on his part. (BTW - I agree it would make sense to see Lydia in advanced classes, but at least we learned over time that she was cautious at first about showing how smart she was, and that she was studying things on her own, like Latin.)

The beginning of your paragraph is the exact same thing I've been saying he's probably doing with Malia. It takes awhile to flesh a character out. And she hasn't just been dropped into their lives. The Mexico event happened 2 months after season 3B ended. She has connections to them, but if she didn't why the hell would she even be in the story? What would her point be? To be Stiles' love interest and the female were that Jeff has always wanted in Scott's pack. Boyd, Erica, and Isaac were only included in the story because of their connection to Derek -he was their maker. Kate is an argent, Derek's ex (much older) girlfriend, who burned down his family home with his family inside, drove his uncle crazy, was killed by said uncle, but survived because he scratchedd her deep enough to infect her. I've already described Kira's background. Lydia is the popular girl genius who was the girl Stiles' crushed on, was bitten by Peter because of it, just so happened to be immune, was the instrument Peter used to bring himself back to life, and is now a Banshee to make her more intigral to the overall story.

Malia is a girl who killed her mom and sister, turned into a coyote because she couldn't handle the guilt, was a closed case that Stiles' father re-opened because he could look at it in a new, supernatural light, was forced to turn human, was sent to an insane assylum, met Stiles and agreed to help him as a bargain for something she wanted, connected with him and hooked up with him (a lets be honest, teenagers, college kids, humans hook up with random people with less of a connection than these two had so it isn't as out of the realm of plausibility as some are making it out to be.), went to find him and the person he promised could help her. Oh, and she so happens to be Peter's daughter. Most of this, we've already seen on screen and wasn't info dumped on us. The rest, I'm sure, we'll see played out one episode down the road. Kind of like how it took 3 seasons for us to learn anything about Scott's father.

Besides being a were-being (which is admittedly not unique on this show)? One who can already kick ass as a fighter and pick up behaviors around her well enough to mimic those behaviors? We know she's got special abilities that help her hear (or otherwise sense) what's around her beyond what humans can. She did a few things at Eichen House that an average girl can't do (including getting an unconscious Stiles down to the basement and possibly stealing some keys.) In a show with were-beings, the special abilities (and unusual eyes) don't stand out as much, but she has been given those things.

She didn't really kick ass....she's faster and stronger. Kind of like how Scott could take Allison even though she's better trained that he is. Speed and strength can account for a lot in a fight, especially if the person you're fighting isn't anywhere in your league when it comes to those two. Speed especially. All she did was knock a gun away, pick him up by his shirt, and slam him onto the ground. Then elbow him on the chin. She had a history of fighting at Eichen House if you listen to what the orderlies say to her when they're pulling her off of Stiles. So it wasn't like "that day" she randomly threw a punch and it connected (some people do learn to punch that way, though.). It's not like she was flipping around like and Agent of Sheild.

She says that she can be really strong if she concentrates, which has been stated to be a were-trait. See Scott cracking a brick wall with his head in Season 1. Or breaking out of the chains Stiles put him in. Same with Boyd and Erika. There has been nothing she's exibited that hasn't been shown in the other were-wolves on the show. Hell, Derek punched a hole through a 3 foot concret wall with very little room to manuever himself (is what we were told to believe). Think The Bride in Kill Bill using her knuckle to break through a wooden box when she had an inch of space. They are strong creatures when they concentrate. So her picking up and heliping 130lb Stiles down a flight of stairs isn't implausable. And when she nicked the guard's keys, she had a distraction at her disposal....and I don't think she got away with it as smoothly as we thought. Stiles did get caught, remember?

Scott is teaching her how to hone her skills. She's still not perfect at them, which is why Stiles had to coach her through listening into the room next door (see? not suddenly perfect). We see Omega-Derek doing the same thing in the episode he and Papa Argent are in jail, but he did it in a bustling police department with plenty of distraction, listening into a room a lot further than what Malia was trying to do. Nothing they've shown her doing is anything we haven't seen other wolves do on the show and better.

I understand that. But as I mentioned, for TV/books it's not yet a common name. It qualifies as "unusual or exotic" in the media world where every third girl's name is Ashley, Brittany or Jenn. (I don't mean that to come across as insulting, btw, so please I hope you don't think I'm trying to do that. I come from a multi-ethnic background and a lot of names that are common in my family would qualify as unusual in the world of TV and books, as well.)

Again, the same could be said for Lydia and Kira. Neither one are common names used for characters in literature or media. (no offense at all, lovely! I understand what you're saying)

True, none of them are written extremely well. But the writing for Malia sets a new low bar by far. JD simply wants a character who's a girl version of Derek (and some would say of Peter, as well)- that's his wish with this character - to have a snarky female Hale were-being to hook up with Stiles, and with each iteration of her he's trying less than before. The writing for her is worse than for the other characters because he's not taking the time to develop anything unique about her anymore. She's an idea that's already been in his head for a couple of seasons, and he's just tossing her out there with a more outlandish explanation (if you can even call it that) each time. I maintain that she's a Mary Sue, as well as a female Derek. I understand that not everyone agrees with that. But I believe it's true, and I've stated my reasons. We can all agree to respectfully disagree, of course. I guess we'll see as the season plays out just what she does turn out to be.

That's perfectly fine if you want to believe that. I understand. I maintain that Peeta in the Hunger Games is a Gary-stu and I really don't like him (although Peeta really is Gary-Stu...but that's another board discussion for another place and time). I guess we're just respectfully agreeing to disagree. An impasse, if you will.

ElleryAnne · June 30, 2014

But she's not Mary-suish is what I'm saying, she'sunderdeveloped.

She's both, IMO. The two aren't mutually exclusive excuses for her. I've already listed the reasons I believe she's a Mary Sue. I understand you disagree, no problem. But I maintain that based on current definitions of a Mary Sue, that's just what she is. And I think that as the next few episodes unfold, it'll become even clearer. I would love it if JD proves me wrong, but I doubt it will happen given his own love of the character.

She has connections to them, but if she didn't why the hell would she even be in the story? What would her point be? To be Stiles' love interest and the female were that Jeff has always wanted in Scott's pack. Boyd, Erica, and Isaac were only included in the story because of their connection to Derek -he was their maker.

Apples and oranges. Erica, Boyd, Isaac, Kira, etc., were separate characters. They became connected to the core through events they experienced, and even at that they had the logical, third-tier tie of being schoolmates of some of the characters before they became closely entangled with anyone. Malia is pre-packaged as a surprise Hale with her special were-coyoteness and a cheap, quick way to be attached to the show creator's favorite character (one that required Stiles to be somewhat OOC, IMO - which is yet another issue with her) and through him, to the rest of the core.

Again, the same could be said for Lydia and Kira. Neither one are common names used for characters in literature or media.

True. But they don't meet the other criteria for Mary Sue that Malia does. Or rather, which I believe she meets, but you don't. We see very it differently, that's all. Makes for interesting discussion, for sure.

I maintain that Peeta in the Hunger Games is a Gary-stu and I really don't like him (although Peeta really is Gary-Stu...but that's another board discussion for another place and time).

Hmm. I'll think on that one. (The only guy I liked in that series was Senna, anyway.)

galax-arena · June 30, 2014

But as I mentioned, for TV/books it's not yet a common name. It qualifies as "unusual or exotic" in the media world where every third girl's name is Ashley, Brittany or Jenn.

I really don't agree with this. I think what you're saying happens more often IRL. Names in the media actually tend to have much more variety. Take the Teen Wolf cast; there are two guys named Tyler. There's no way that a show would make two characters have the same name unless they were going to be a plot point or gag of some sort, e.g. Tina Chang vs Mike Chang on Glee.

Just going from some of the tv shows I watch or have watched, I'll list the various names of as many of the female characters I can remember:

Elena, Caroline, Bonnie, Anna, Pearl, Quinn, Rachel, Brittany, Santana, Tina, Mercedes, Eleanor, Max, Karma, Amy, Spencer, Emily, Hanna, Aria, Cosima, Alison, Sarah, Beth, Helena, Mariana, Callie, Lena, Stef, Emma, Fiona, Holly J, Becky, Imogen, Jackie, Claire, Alli (NOT short for Allison), Jenna, Maya, Zoe, Anya, Marissa, Summer, Buffy, Tara, Anya, Willow, Nikita, Alex, Amanda, Peyton, Haley, Brooke

And, of course, there's Teen Wolf -

Allison

Lydia

Erica

Cora

Kira

Malia

The only names repeated across shows were Alison/Allison and, surprisingly, Anya. I don't really see how Malia is anymore exotic than Kira or Cora or Erica. Hell, Teen Wolf has a character named Stiles. Yes, it's his last name, but still. Her name isn't really any more speshul snowflake than any other name on the show. It's not like she's called Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way.

(Bonus points if you can figure out all the shows I used lmao.)

Edited June 30, 2014 by galax-arena

ElleryAnne · June 30, 2014

But I'm not trying to say that EVERY other name on TV is common. Only that Malia is not one of the common names compared to some others which ARE commonly used. I could as easily have picked the names Lucy or Grace or whatever. Glee, for instance, has several uncommon names. It doesn't disprove the the fact that Malia has not been a frequently-used name on shows over the years and therefore qualifies as unusual by that standard.

Take the Teen Wolf cast; there are two guys named Tyler.

Also two Dylans effective this season.

Anyway, I guess I don't get the bonus points. I recognize Vampire Diaries and Glee, and of course BtVS. And Max could be Dark Angel, but since you didn't mention Logan I'm guessing it's not. Oh, and Teen Wolf.

justcris · June 30, 2014

I think one of the key aspects of a Mary Sue is that she's always good and always right and everyone loves her no matter what. Case in point, as mentioned previously, Elena Gilbert on TVD.

Malia is not a goody two shoes, she hasn't really had a chance to be right about anything, and the characters don't love her, they mostly tolerate her as far as I can tell.

I'm actually enjoying Malia so far, she's already more developed than Cora! Can't wait to see her in Beacon Hills.

Gwen-Stacys · June 30, 2014

But I'm not trying to say that EVERY other name on TV is common. Only that Malia is not one of the common names compared to some others which ARE commonly used. I could as easily have picked the names Lucy or Grace or whatever. Glee, for instance, has several uncommon names. It doesn't disprove the the fact that Malia has not been a frequently-used name on shows over the years and therefore qualifies as unusual by that standard.

Also two Dylans effective this season.

Anyway, I guess I don't get the bonus points. I recognize Vampire Diaries and Glee, and of course BtVS. And Max could be Dark Angel, but since you didn't mention Logan I'm guessing it's not. Oh, and Teen Wolf.

I think the point she's trying to make is that, in the context of the show, her name isn't all that exotic when you compare it to the other names we've already been introduced to. Same as my point, she's not anymore special that anyone else on the show. I even gave examples. But I think we'll forever be at an impasse on the subject of Malia being a Mary Sue. Sshe really does not fit the definition. The only thing special about her is that she's a Hale (maybe). She's not even the only other WERE on the show. Or even a special other (Kitsune/Banshee). What she is, people can teach her how to control and hone because they are the same as she is. Mary Sue, no matter how you spin the definition, is a synonym for Special Snowflake/other...that of which Malia is not. I've even given you examples of why I think you're wrong in the instances that you provided me. You can share your examples if you want, maybe I'll understand then.

But Mary Sue does not always =/= underdeveloped. Elena Gilbert is a very developed character, but she's a Mary Sue through and through. Cora Hale was woefully underdeveloped, but she was in no way a Mary Sue. Same thing with Erica.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

ElleryAnne · June 30, 2014

I think the point she's trying to make is that, in the context of the show, her name isn't all that exotic when you compare it to the other names we've already been introduced to.

It's less common than Scott, Allison, Derek, Lydia, Danny, and Erica. Probably less common than Cora overall. Maybe on a par with Kira. That's about it. Stiles is only a nickname, which is a separate kind of thing.

But I think we'll forever be at an impasse on the subject of Malia being a Mary Sue.

That much we can probably agree on. I hold that she is.

galax-arena · June 30, 2014

But I'm not trying to say that EVERY other name on TV is common. Only that Malia is not one of the common names compared to some others which ARE commonly used.

Sure, but it's also not all that particularly exotic either. Your comment implied that Malia is a Mary Sue-ish name because it sticks out in a TV landscape where every third name in the media is Jennifer, Brittany, etc. I'm saying that, in my experience at least, that's not true, that there is probably greater variety on television because TPTB don't like repeating names and want to create memorable characters ("Bob Smith" just sounds boring), and that while Malia might not be ubiquitous, neither does it stand out as being all that unusual. How exactly is Malia a unique super speshul snowflake name compared to a lot of the other ones I listed? It's not like Jeff Davis gave it some trendy, try-hard spelling either. There's more to a Mary Sue name than simply not being incredibly common.

Now, if we want to talk about horrible names, let's focus on Braeden. I like Braeden and feel like she deserves a much better name than that trendy bullshit.

(I'm sorry if anybody on this forum is named Braeden!)

Edited June 30, 2014 by galax-arena

ElleryAnne · June 30, 2014

I'm sorry, I really don't know how to say this to make it clearer. I'm not saying her name must be absolutely unique. It's that Mary Sue names tend to be less common, and a bit more special (excepting the original). So. Like Malia. Like some other names. And not so much like some other names. MMV, obviously. Anyway, it's hardly THE defining trait of Mary Sues, it's just one of a list, so it's odd that it's getting this much attention. But there ya have it.

I like Braeden and feel like she deserves a much better name than that trendy bullshit.

I like it for what it is - a Gaelic boy's name. I don't know that it suits TW's Braeden character especially. But it's a better fit than Lulu, which is the name she played in something else. (And no offense to anyone whose name is Lulu. It just doesn't suit her character on TW.)

snakenax · July 1, 2014

I think one of the key aspects of a Mary Sue is that she's always good and always right and everyone loves her no matter what.

Isn't pretty much the single biggest key aspect of the Mary Sue that they're a author insert in a fanfic so the author can write themselves as the object of their favorite character's affections etc? Personally I find using the term outside of fanfiction weird, it describes a real trend within fanfic writing but isn't really transferable outside of the fanfic world. The writing issues and tropes that go into introducing a new character on TV are their own thing and don't really mesh with fanfiction terminology.

Starfish35 · July 1, 2014

Isn't pretty much the single biggest key aspect of the Mary Sue that they're a author insert in a fanfic so the author can write themselves as the object of their favorite character's affections etc? Personally I find using the term outside of fanfiction weird, it describes a real trend within fanfic writing but isn't really transferable outside of the fanfic world.

I disagree. While I have no particular opinion on Malia, Wesley Crusher on Star Trek: TNG is considered one of the most stereotypical Gary Stus in existence (Gene Roddenberry's own self-insert), so it does happen outside of fanfiction.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Starfish35

snakenax · July 1, 2014

I disagree. While I have no particular opinion on Malia, Wesley Crusher on Star Trek: TNG is considered one of the most stereotypical Gary Stus in existence (Gene Roddenberry's own self-insert), so it does happen outside of fanfiction.

I can't imagine how Wesley Crusher could be a Gary Stu, he's around from the beginning of the show and is more of just your run of the mill annoying kid genius character(which were really common in that era of TV/film). Which isn't to say he's well written or a good character, but if Mary/Gary Stu just means 'character I don't like' it loses all meaning, especially since it's perfectly possible to like a Mary/Gary Stu character.

Yitzhak · July 1, 2014

If Mary/Gary Stu just means 'character I don't like' it loses all meaning

Exactly. The two main aspects of a Mary Sue are a) that they are an adored idealized character who never gets anything wrong, and b) that they are an author insert. Malia doesn't tick either of those boxes. S4 has a running gag of Malia failing to fit in with human society and does anyone seriously think she is Jeff Davis's self-insert? Jeff secretly desires to be Stiles's female werewolf lover? I think not.

Moving on, I'm wondering what kind of controversy there will be over the implied Malia getting rough with Stiles in bed (?) Was Stiles showing Scott bruises? I guess Malia sneaking into Stiles's room means his dad doesn't know about her yet.

Gwen-Stacys · July 1, 2014

Isn't pretty much the single biggest key aspect of the Mary Sue that they're a author insert in a fanfic so the author can write themselves as the object of their favorite character's affections etc? Personally I find using the term outside of fanfiction weird, it describes a real trend within fanfic writing but isn't really transferable outside of the fanfic world. The writing issues and tropes that go into introducing a new character on TV are their own thing and don't really mesh with fanfiction terminology.

It is a very big aspect of it, but it does happen outside of fanfiction. Bella Swan, for example, is one of the most recent literary versions of it that I can think of.

But this is the exact point I was trying to make: Malia isn't a Mary Sue because she isn't a self-insert and she is nowhere near perfect. Last night's episode furthers that. Not everyone loves her or changes who they are because they're in her presence in she farts rainbows and cupcakes. Her own (maybe) father left her behind to save himself and never bothered to check on her afterwards. She wasn't sure how to fight the Berzerker, so there was a beat there where she waited to see what Scott would do before she made a move. Then she promptly got her ass handed to her. Her Knight in nuetral v-neck was her (maybe) cousin...who came running to save Scott, not her.

I'm really not seeing the Mary Sue thing and am starting think it has more and more to do with people just not wanting to like Malia and feeling they need a reason to do so. So they hop on the "But she's a Mary Sue!" bandwagon. If you don't like her, you don't need to have a reason. Just say you don't.

Exactly. The two main aspects of a Mary Sue are a) that they are an adored idealized character who never gets anything wrong, and b) that they are an author insert. Malia doesn't tick either of those boxes. S4 has a running gag of Malia failing to fit in with human society and does anyone seriously think she is Jeff Davis's self-insert? Jeff secretly desires to be Stiles's female werewolf lover? I think not.

Exactly!

Moving on, I'm wondering what kind of controversy there will be over the implied Malia getting rough with Stiles in bed (?) Was Stiles showing Scott bruises?

I think they were scratches? Like...rough sex is what I'm thinking they're hinting to? I don't know.

ElleryAnne · July 1, 2014

I'm really not seeing the Mary Sue thing and am starting think it has more and more to do with people just not wanting to like Malia and feeling they need a reason to do so. So they hop on the "But she's a Mary Sue!" bandwagon. If you don't like her, you don't need to have a reason. Just say you don't.

I've outlined my reasons for believing she is. You don't have to agree, but you don't have to assume I'm just making something up for other reasons. I actually want to like Malia. But even in last night's episode, she was made more sympathetic by having another character look like a dick. (I'm talking about the classroom scene.) Don't get me wrong - it was a scene I actually enjoyed. But my point is, we can agree to disagree without ascribing negative reasons to each other's opinions.

I think they were scratches? Like...rough sex is what I'm thinking they're hinting to? I don't know.

I didn't get the impression they were hinting at any sex, though I do think they were bruises/scratches. I guess they'll explain it in a later episode.

greenbean · July 1, 2014

Shelley's doing a good job, she's cute. I didn't expect to like Malia so much tbh. I thought she'd come and gone in her initial episode last season. I think it's pretty savvy of Jeff to bring her back.

I think they were scratches? Like...rough sex is what I'm thinking they're hinting to? I don't know.

I thought the bruising did imply sex, because after Stiles shows Scott his back, he says something like, "After that we spent the rest of the night spooning". Which in tv land, implies sex imo. Especially when Scott then asks "So this means you guys are together, you're dating?" I want the show to go there, so I don't mind. There's bound to be fandom controversy no matter what happens with Stiles/Malia, so whatever.

Gwen-Stacys · July 1, 2014

I've outlined my reasons for believing she is. You don't have to agree, but you don't have to assume I'm just making something up for other reasons. I actually want to like Malia. But even in last night's episode, she was made more sympathetic by having another character look like a dick. (I'm talking about the classroom scene.) Don't get me wrong - it was a scene I actually enjoyed. But my point is, we can agree to disagree without ascribing negative reasons to each other's opinions.

And that's fine, but there have been people (on tumblr) who said much of the same things that've been said on this board and then backpeddled, admitting that they just didn't like her and were throwing out random reasons.

Who was made to look like an asshole? Not Mr. Yukimura. Kira's dad is known for putting people on the spot. That's just who he's always been and it's played for laughs. That scene had more of a humerous tilt to it as well as giving a nod to what will be happening in episodes down the road (Lydia teaching Malia outside of school to help her catch up.). She is behind and that scene established that (but it was cute how both Stiles and Scott didn't raise their hands when Mr. Yukimura asked who did know the answer.)

I didn't get the impression they were hinting at any sex, though I do think they were bruises/scratches. I guess they'll explain it in a later episode.

I thought Scott's "Oh, so now you're dating" was supposed to further the notion that they did. It's well within the show's characterization Scott that he'd connect sex to a commited relationship. Tack onto that Stile's "Yea, wild right?" response. I'm fairly certain that they're sexin' and big time (also why Scott had such a goofy look on his face while he was listening to Stiles.)

ElleryAnne · July 1, 2014

Who was made to look like an asshole? Not Mr. Yukimura.

I think he was. He came across as unnecessarily hard on her, given that she's the new kid in class and one would expect he has some knowledge of the fact that she hasn't been in school in awhile. I like Mr. Yukimura and I like that he can put someone on the spot sometimes, but he came across as dickish with Malia and yeah, it was played for laughs (and I laughed) but it still bugs me that he was made to look that unsympathetic so she would look more so. YMMV, naturally.

I thought Scott's "Oh, so now you're dating" was supposed to further the notion that they did. It's well within the show's characterization Scott that he'd connect sex to a commited relationship. Tack onto that Stile's "Yea, wild right?" response. I'm fairly certain that they're sexin' and big time (also why Scott had such a goofy look on his face while he was listening to Stiles.)

Maybe so. It was vague enough. I'm sure it'll be explained later. I'm choosing to think better of Malia in this case by thinking she's just sneaking in to be near him, rather than assuming there's some dub-con going on.

ahisma · July 1, 2014

I was disturbed the first time I watched the scene where Stiles tells Scott about Malia sneaking in. I just rewatched it and it's even worse than I remembered. Listen to Stiles and watch his face. He is complaining that Malia is sneaking into his house at night, he is in pain from whatever marks she left on his back (even Scott winces at the sight), and he is upset that he is essentially being pinned down the whole night by someone he isn't physically capable of throwing off. If a girl was complaining about a guy pressuring her like that and showing her friends the scratches/bruises, they'd be telling her to get the hell out of that situation, not saying, "Oh, so you're dating now?" And then for plot purposes the script has to segue into "we haven't told her about Peter"—as if that's really the issue here.

BTW, I agree that it is strongly implied that the injuries are sustained during rough sex. Even if they weren't, the rest of the situation is still creepy and abusive.

ElleryAnne · July 1, 2014

I agree entirely, @ahisma. That's why I've been erring on the side of assuming there wasn't actually any sex going on. It's uncomfortable as it is, but if there's sex as well, then the whole thing is even much worse.

Atony · July 1, 2014

Yeah I assumed they are sexually active. Malia sneaks into Stiles room frequently, rough sex that leaves him with the scars, and they spend the rest of the night spooning with her as the big spoon. That was what I thought the Scott/Stiles conversation was conveying. And yes, Scott asking if they are dating since they are sexually active.

Granted, it is creepier if you think of it if the gender roles reversed, but as much as Stiles was bitching a little to Scott, he clearly is consenting to Malia's advances.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Atony

ahisma · July 1, 2014

It is unknown whether Stiles is verbally protesting to Malia or whether he is just not saying No. But from his visible unhappiness with the situation, he is clearly not enthusiastically consenting to everything going on. Watch the scene again.

Maybe Stiles thinks Malia's pretty and maybe he likes finally getting to have sex like all his friends. But. His ideal girlfriend would probably call or text ahead, come in through the front door, say hi to his dad once in a while, go on the occasional date. She'd have sex with him without leaving him sore for days. She might stay over and cuddle but not make him feel trapped.

Even if someone says Yes to sex, they have the right to change that answer to No. (Say, if they're getting scratched and bruised up.) Many people don't, though, because they feel like they already said Yes, because they don't want to hurt the other person's feelings, because they feel physically intimidated, or because they feel like, "Oh, well, I wanted sex. I asked for it." Young/sexually inexperienced people are especially vulnerable to this, which is why statutory rape is illegal. They're also capable of unknowingly doing it to each other, which is why enthusiastic consent is the best standard all parties should abide by. Unfortunately Malia doesn't have the social training to stop in the middle and say, "Hey, are you okay with this?" "Well, if you could just pull your claws in ..."

Edited July 1, 2014 by ahisma

blueray · July 1, 2014

I took that scene as, Stiles was indicating that they are having sex and that she has bruised or scratched. He probably consented to her but maybe regretting it now (in the morning). As Ahisma said she probably doesn't have the social skills to understand that someone could change their mind. I do feel like Scott should have been more concern that his friend is injured but that maybe only the way girls would act.

bluebonnet · July 2, 2014

I agree @ashima. The dub-con sex this season is extremely disturbing if only because they are brushing it off as something totally normal. Kate molesting teen Derek and Malia overpowering Stiles in bed. I keep hoping that the show will address these things, but considering Scott was all "so y'all are dating now" as though dub-con sex is a totally acceptable marker of a relationship. It's unthinkable that JD and the writers aren't at least aware that they are appearing to romanticize dub-con sex or sexual situations.

Jack Kerouac · July 2, 2014

In conclusion, you can say that Malia is an underdeveloped character, because right now she is, but she is in no way a Mary Sue in the truest definition of a Mary Sue. If she's a Mary Sue then Lydia's a Mary Sue. Kira's a Mary Sue. And Allison was a marry Sue (may she rest in peace).

Thank you! I don't get the Malia hate. It usually starts with "I don't HATE her, but ..." and then goes on to list all the reasons why the person hates her.

galax-arena · July 2, 2014

I've been defending Malia against the Mary Sue accusations because I honestly don't think she is and think that phrase is thrown around far too easily when it comes to female characters, BUT I can also see why someone wouldn't be a fan of her.

I like Malia so far. I'm not crazy about her - I wouldn't call myself a "stan" or anything - but I do like her and the actress. Malia's amusing, I like her bluntness. ("If hunting had been bad that season, I'd eat her. Then I'd leave.") She's good comic relief. But that doesn't mean I don't have any reservations about her character. I think she's being written inconsistently, but that's par for the course with Jeff. (I also don't like how Jeff has been writing Kira, and I like Kira, too. Consistency is not Jeff Davis' best friend. In fact, I think Consistency might have run over Jeff Davis' puppy at one point.) At this point, I loathe the Stalia relationship for the reasons already articulated here. And last but not least, I'm not thrilled that her storyline is tied to Peter or to the Hales at all, because I find Hale family drama boring and I absolutely loathe Peter. It's not really about hating Malia herself, it's about disliking what comes along with her.

I'd like to see Malia interacting more with the other girls. Kira is a bit of an awkward turtle to say the least, and Lydia can give attitude right back. It would be interesting to watch.

wayne67 · July 3, 2014

I'm not sure if I'd call Malia a Mary Sue, frankly I think Lana Lang is a better example of Mary Sue in a tv show. Mostly because she had a wide range of nonsensical skills and abilities and the crypto freak of the week would often fixate on her (including Clark for however many seasons that ship went on) though I don't know if she was supposed to a author insert or whether she was simply a creators pet. I don't assume to know what a writer thinks despite watching their work in their medium.

That said, I'd like Malia more if her introduction to the series wasn't so clumsily executed. The episode spent chasing a coyote in the woods and then Scott yelling at her to change back. Then everyone essentially forgot about her until she showed up in the same mental ward as Stiles. Then Stiles hooks up with her (in whatever retconned context they now apparently want us to swallow) which is all sorts of weird dub con, considering they were both considered mentally unstable, him because of nogistune possession and her because she'd been a coyote for 6 ? years ? Then there's the latest episode where Stiles is shown to be in pain due to late night snuggles and it feels like Stiles is being railroaded into dating/sexing/mentoring an unstable wild child because plot contrivance ?

I want to like Malia as I loved Anya and her bluntly honest routine but the numerous questions about Malia, her background, her current interactions with Stiles and pack and it just isn't endearing me to her. I may be feeling burned after Cora and her lack of explained backstory, I escaped a fire and wandered to another place without informing my relatives.

It just feels that if the show took away 5 minutes from random dead bodies and slow mo and mysterious bad guys they could address some gaping issues with the characters. Lydia and her banshee powers, Scott and his reappearing True Alpha usefulness, Allison's death (not that I particularly cared that much about her death either way but it'd be nice if her friends showed some more interest so I could think that death means something to these wacky pack people), Isaac wandering off to wherever, Danny and his unexplained knowledge about werewolves (did Jackson tell him?), a single logical reason why gay twin would leave after his brother essentially died to get him into Scott's pack especially since they intimated strongly that those twins had people that really wanted them dead (like I don't want to live in the same town where my brother died) .

I don't dislike Malia but I'm starting to get really tired of major character backstory/motivation being glossed over and used as a joke. For instance Isaac and his claustrophobia/ paternal abuse issues being used as a punch line.

Sometimes it feels like these characters are just being batted around by a cat with a mouse until the cat gets bored and eats it. Characters get introduced, they maybe get built up and then they die or wander off without explanation. It just makes it so hard to care about any of these characters sometimes when everyone is being so fickled.

Sometimes it feels like I only hang around for Stiles/ stilinski comedy , the sheriff is hilarious.
I'm going to hope this season does a bit more in the way of amusing/interesting character interactions and less on the punching 'big bads'.
This is their 5th ? big bad in a year ? I'm so lost sometimes with these plots.
I'd like this show better if it just went with a supernatural sitcom feeling instead of trying to write character arcs and mythologies which they constantly lose track of.

Edited July 3, 2014 by wayne67

FurryFury · July 3, 2014

My solution to this is just not to expect much from the show. It's pretty and sometimes fun - there isn't really anything deeper to it, no second layer. It's style over substance, all the time.

Re: Anya mention - yep, I also recalled her immediately after Malia's interactions with the cast in 4x01. I can't believe it's not intentional, way too many obvious similarities that extent beyond the basic trope.

Gwen-Stacys · July 6, 2014

I agree @ashima. The dub-con sex this season is extremely disturbing if only because they are brushing it off as something totally normal. Kate molesting teen Derek and Malia overpowering Stiles in bed. I keep hoping that the show will address these things, but considering Scott was all "so y'all are dating now" as though dub-con sex is a totally acceptable marker of a relationship. It's unthinkable that JD and the writers aren't at least aware that they are appearing to romanticize dub-con sex or sexual situations.

I don't think you can compare Kate/Derek to Malia/Stiles in any instance. (The only comparison to K/D in cannon is perhaps Erica/Derek or Stiles/Derek in fanon.). Malia for one, isn't using Stiles for malicious intent and they're in the same age group. About the scratches, Stiles honestly just seemed annoyed by them. Kind of like a girl (or boy) that has a make-out session with their S/O and the next day finds out they have a hickey! It's annoying and it hurts, but they didn't mind it while it was going on. Ya'll are hopping on this dub/con train like Jeff and co fucked up the scene on a Cersei/Jamie Lannister not supposed to be a rape scene, rape scene. Or Elena Gilbert fucking her ex-boyfriends brother while under mystical influence. It's nowhere near. It's basically Malia giving Stiles a hickey (which also hurts, for those who don't know. I'd rather get scratched) and Scott's "Holly..." reaction fits that. It wasn't a "Holly...I'm worried for your mental and physical health. You need to tell someone and get help." It was a "Holy....! Dude...I'm both surprised and amazed. Maybe a little jealous. Maybe you should give me lessons."

It is unknown whether Stiles is verbally protesting to Malia or whether he is just not saying No.

^That is it. Anything else you say about this scene is pure speculation/fanon and not cannon. But this is the Malia thread...maybe we should make a Stalia thread for discussion?

Yitzhak · July 6, 2014

maybe we should make a Stalia thread for discussion?

The Teen Wolf forum could perhaps do with one thread for shipping discussion(?). Otherwise threads could spring up on every ship on the show. One thread for all shipper discussion (pros and cons) would be useful.

FurryFury · July 6, 2014

A relationship thread would be nice. Not necessarily only about romances, too. Most forums seem to have one for any type of relationships.

Yitzhak · July 6, 2014

Good call, Fury. A relationship discussion thread would be perfect.

galax-arena · July 6, 2014

Ya'll are hopping on this dub/con train like Jeff and co fucked up the scene on a Cersei/Jamie Lannister not supposed to be a rape scene, rape scene.

No one's acting like Stalia is comparable to Jaime and Cersei, which was straight up rape. The situation as depicted qualifies as dub-con IMO. Dub-con isn't the same thing as non-con. Yes, it's not clear whether Stiles is openly objecting to Malia, that's what makes it dub-con. If we knew he was saying no and that she was still over him, then that'd take it straight into non-con territory.

ETA: Yes, I think an overall relationships thread would be good.

Edited July 6, 2014 by galax-arena

July 7, 2014

You guys are free to start threads on your own. A single relationship thread sounds good to me. If you need help setting it up, just PM or ping me.

bluebonnet · July 8, 2014

I don't think you can compare Kate/Derek to Malia/Stiles in any instance. (The only comparison to K/D in cannon is perhaps Erica/Derek or Stiles/Derek in fanon.). Malia for one, isn't using Stiles for malicious intent and they're in the same age group. About the scratches, Stiles honestly just seemed annoyed by them. Kind of like a girl (or boy) that has a make-out session with their S/O and the next day finds out they have a hickey! It's annoying and it hurts, but they didn't mind it while it was going on. Ya'll are hopping on this dub/con train like Jeff and co fucked up the scene on a Cersei/Jamie Lannister not supposed to be a rape scene, rape scene. Or Elena Gilbert fucking her ex-boyfriends brother while under mystical influence. It's nowhere near. It's basically Malia giving Stiles a hickey (which also hurts, for those who don't know. I'd rather get scratched) and Scott's "Holly..." reaction fits that. It wasn't a "Holly...I'm worried for your mental and physical health. You need to tell someone and get help." It was a "Holy....! Dude...I'm both surprised and amazed. Maybe a little jealous. Maybe you should give me lessons."

With all due respect, you're going a little far in claiming we are comparing this to Jaime and Cersei, which is a straight up rape scene. I am actually remarking on the dub-con nature of it all. The way it's written, directed and acted makes it appear like the consent is dubious. It's not just that they had rough sex and now Stiles is feeling the pain of it the next day. It's that they had Stiles remarking on stuff like Malia continually sneaking in the window and then being made to be the little spoon which, coupled with the facial expressions Stiles makes comes off as seeming very dub-con.

The most recent episode, Muted, also had some inconsistency with the Stalia (is this how you define a ship? I'm a bit too old to understand the rules.) thing because we have Malia growl at him in class and Stiles delivering fearful face then later a sweet moment between them. There are differences in the Kate/Derek thing due to age gaps, but there's still an issue of dub-con. I don't have particular issues with the fantasy of dub-con in it's proper context (like erotica), but the show and network have a responsibility to properly identify these scenarios and be sensitive when writing and directing scenes if material comes close to hitting dub-con. If this was a consensual thing between Malia and Stiles, it would have worked better with tiny changes in script and acting choices. Dylan O'Brien should have been directed to alter his facial expressions to one that portrays a "hey, we got a bit rough last night and now I'm feeling it" rather than "I'm terrified and disturbed by what happens with Malia each night." They also could have had Scott asking Stiles if he was ok with it all before jumping into asking if it meant they were dating now.

From what I've read about the EP's, I wouldn't be surprised if Dylan just didn't know what he was supposed to be conveying since it seems they are not given details about what will happen with their characters while filming a specific episode.

Edited July 8, 2014 by bluebonnet

feverfew · July 8, 2014

If this was a consensual thing between Malia and Stiles, it would have worked better with tiny changes in script and acting choices. Dylan O'Brien should have been directed to alter his facial expressions to one that portrays a "hey, we got a bit rough last night and now I'm feeling it" rather than "I'm terrified and disturbed by what happens with Malia each night." They also could have had Scott asking Stiles if he was ok with it all before jumping into asking if it meant they were dating now.

The thing is, for me it did look like a "hey, we got a bit rough last night and now I'm feeling it". I was actually really surprised to read that some people felt uncomfortable with that scene. For me, it was definitely played for laughs - Stiles complaining that Malia makes him the little spoon sounded like guy postering to me. I never got the sense that we were supposed to infer that there was something malign in their relationship; rather, as I think we saw in the newest episode, there is a sweetness to their interactions (the way Stiles kisses her after he realises that she took her colour coding cues from his wall of weird) which doesn't add up to dub-con.

I'm becoming really fond of Malia, and I think she might end up my favourite female character on the show.

Edited July 8, 2014 by feverfew

greenbean · July 8, 2014

I'm becoming really fond of Malia, and I think she might end up my favourite female character on the show.

Right now, she's mine. I loved Allison and was so sad when she left. But Malia has been a surprise. She and Stiles are so sweet together. Plus I think Shelley does a good job with the humour. There's a nice light-heartedness to Malia, as well as the impulsivity.

bluebonnet · July 8, 2014

The thing is, for me it did look like a "hey, we got a bit rough last night and now I'm feeling it". I was actually really surprised to read that some people felt uncomfortable with that scene. For me, it was definitely played for laughs - Stiles complaining that Malia makes him the little spoon sounded like guy postering to me. I never got the sense that we were supposed to infer that there was something malign in their relationship; rather, as I think we saw in the newest episode, there is a sweetness to their interactions (the way Stiles kisses her after he realises that she took her colour coding cues from his wall of weird) which doesn't add up to dub-con.

I'm becoming really fond of Malia, and I think she might end up my favourite female character on the show.

FWIW, I feel pretty certain that this interpretation was exactly what they were going for. After the last episode, I rewatched it again and could nearly see it from this interpretation. It's just that upon first viewing, it was like an uncomfortable punch to the face for me. I've thought about it a bit more and I do think it's likely that my view was colored because it came so close with more of the Kate/Derek dub-con, which the show has consistently never acknowledged.

ahisma · July 9, 2014

FWIW, I feel pretty certain that this interpretation was exactly what they were going for.

I agree that by now this seems to be TW's intention. But on first, second, third, fourth, etc., viewing, when Stiles is complaining to Scott he clearly looks and sounds uncomfortable/frustrated/in pain to me. And he's pretty self knowledgeable and accepting about not being the macho stud type—I wouldn't buy him having issues with Malia taking the lead. He rolls (with Heather, Caitlin, Malia) with not being the initiator pretty easily. Any upset Stiles had I took to be upset grounded in the facts. I'm just going to handwave that Scott took Malia aside sometime between last ep and this and said, "Claws in bed are no bueno. Humans don't heal like us, so ease up."

But then I really don't trust EPs ever since Stargate Atlantis. They wrote a character who had a drug that made people compliant and worship him, and he used it to create a harem of "wives" for himself. Viewers freaked about the date rape story line, and TPTB didn't get it. Even as late as the DVD commentary, one of the EPs said, "Our guest actor played this part with a slightly dark edge and I'm not sure why. It's such a funny, light episode."

Otherwise with Malia, I am enjoying her verbal interactions with everyone. The writing is a little wonky to push the comedy (feral girl disco dances, makes bets, and teachers call on her in regular class when she's a special needs student), but that's par for the course. I think Shelley's playing what they give her well.

Gwen-Stacys · July 15, 2014

I'm glad they finally touched on the guilt Malia still feels about killing her family. I wondered if they were going to just keep ignoring that bit. If I remember correctly, the guilt she felt about the accident was why she wanted to go back to being a coyote back in the Echein house episode. It made sense that that would be why she was still so feral and out of control on a full moon even though she was born were-creature.

jhlipton · July 17, 2014

re "little spoon" -- that's a cuddling position rather than a sex position -- it means Stiles is on the inside. So I didn't get anything but full consensual from that one remark at least. (It wouldn't be as easy for Malia to scratch Stiles if she was the little spoon, but that's a whole 'nother problem...)

Gwen-Stacys · July 20, 2014

With all due respect, you're going a little far in claiming we are comparing this to Jaime and Cersei, which is a straight up rape scene. I am actually remarking on the dub-con nature of it all. The way it's written, directed and acted makes it appear like the consent is dubious. It's not just that they had rough sex and now Stiles is feeling the pain of it the next day. It's that they had Stiles remarking on stuff like Malia continually sneaking in the window and then being made to be the little spoon which, coupled with the facial expressions Stiles makes comes off as seeming very dub-con.

But there is no dub/con at all, is what I was trying to say. In the very next episode they show that Stiles is very capable of telling Malia "No" as well as her having the ability to listen to him. The way he told the story was more of a "I'm tired because I didn't get any sleep last night (consensual things happened) and I'm trying to hurry up and tell you this story before we get to class because we're probably late already" kind of way. IDK, maybe I'm a little sensitive about the way female characters are talked about in fandom as opposed to male characters. Spike tried to rape Buffy and there was serious dub/con going on with Damon and Caroline but we're expected to forgive because they had a tough life and just needed someone to love them? Maybe I don't see the dub/con going on because Stiles only seems scared of Malia the way some men irl are "scared" of their significant others (see Cory and Topanga BMW, Chandler when it comes to Monica and making messes on Friends, Marshall and Lily HIMYM, or Claire and Phil on MF.) in that he doesn't want to make her angry, but he's also not scared to/may do it on accident and then it's played for comedy.

And "little spoon" is a cuddling term not a sex term. In a heterosexual relationship, men are usually the big spoon. Her making him the little spoon was also played for comedy. She lived for so long as a coyote that she doesn't understand the gender norms, ha ha. She emasculated Stiles because of it ha ha. If anything, people should be angry that they're trying to say that men can't be the little spoon and enjoy it.

And to be honest, I wasn't taking it even a little bit too far with fans already talking about going up to Shelley Hennig at Comic Con asking her how it feels to play an abusive character. Or talking about how Stiles needs to be saved from Malia. There are people who are trying to make her out to be a horrible person because of this. (Let's not even mention that these are the same people who see Derek, Malia's maybe cousin, shoving Stiles up against a wall and threatening to tear his throat out with his teeth is "OMG sexual tension.").

I would like for people to stop vilifying female characters/actresses. They did the same thing to Allison (sending Crystal Reed hate messages on her twitter and Instagram) when she was, justifiably from her warped perspective, angry with Derek Hale and willing to kill anyone (except Scott) who got in her way of avenging her mother.

Yitzhak · July 20, 2014

with fans already talking about going up to Shelley Hennig at Comic Con asking her how it feels to play an abusive character. Or talking about how Stiles needs to be saved from Malia. There are people who are trying to make her out to be a horrible person because of this.

I'm really hoping there won't be any hateful comments or booing directed at Shelley during Comic Con. Especially since there's always so much squealing for Dylan at those events. But honestly if it happens I think fans will only succeed in embarrassing themselves. I just hope any Malia criticism is voiced in a polite and reasoned manner.

(Let's not even mention that these are the same people who see Derek, Malia's maybe cousin, shoving Stiles up against a wall and threatening to tear his throat out with his teeth is "OMG sexual tension.").

Why not mention it? It's a pretty big hypocrisy IMO.

As I've said before, I'm pretty indifferent to the Stiles/Malia ship but I am really supportive of Malia as a character because I've really really wanted a major female werewolf on this show from the start. And if there's one thing we've learned about werewolves it's that werewolves are violent creatures. They are super-powered monsters who struggle to control their own strength. Even our little peacenik werewolf Scott McCall is a violent creature who has hospitalized several of his fellow lacrosse players when he got a little wolfy on the field. Derek has often used his werewolf strength to bully and intimidate people and he has also stalked teenagers, invaded their bedrooms and roughed them up (and not even spooned them afterwards!). Issac, Erica and Boyd became a pack of savage hyenas when they were first turned. The twins were sadistic thugs. Peter is a murdering sociopath. God knows how Liam and his anger management issues are going to develop with his new wolf powers. Compared to all the other Beacon Hills wolves, I'd say that Malia's levels of violence are hardly extreme. AND all those other werewolves either grew up human or lived in civilized human society all their lives, which Malia did not. I certainly don't see Malia as abusive. She can instinctively lash out (and that does make her dangerous) but I've not seen her use her werewolf strength in a calculated way to hurt or to intimidate.

Another thing that I feel needs to be said is that Stiles is not scared of werewolves. Stiles is well aware that werewolves are a lot stronger than him, but Stiles still seriously wants to hang around with werewolves. The werewolves who Stiles considers to be his friends at least. If there are werewolves who Stiles doesn't like - the twins, for example - he'll threaten to shove a mountain ash branch up their asses. Because Stiles isn't scared of werewolves and he isn't incapable of standing up to werewolves either. So given that context, I think it's safe to say that if Stiles didn't want a hot werewolf girl sneaking into his bed for rough sex and spooning, he'd put a stop to it. Even if the scratches are a drawback, it doesn't seem like it's enough to put Stiles off consenting. The basement scene in 4x4 emphasized that Stiles trusts Malia not to hurt him. And Malia proved that even when her violent urges are at their peak, she's capable of stopping herself before she hurts Stiles. It's not so different from Scott's early fears that he'd hurt Allison or Stiles.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Yitzhak

ElleryAnne · July 20, 2014

But there is no dub/con at all, is what I was trying to say.

Maybe it's an interpretation thing. I agree with those who think that scene reads as dub-con. It may be that JD didn't intend it to, but given how frequently he presents dub-con in relationships and doesn't seem to realize the buttons he hits with some viewers, I'm not surprised that the following week the Stalia scene ignored the implications that seemed to be in that scene. But then, Stalia's been badly written from the start.

I would like for people to stop vilifying female characters/actresses.

People should absolutely not vilify any actress for the role she plays. But criticizing a character who happens to be female isn't automatically vilifying females. The character still stands or falls on the merits of the writing, acting, and directing. The dub-con implications in the "spooning" conversation do hit some very real notes for some people. If the roles were reversed and a guy was sneaking into a girl's room at night, spooning and maybe more (that still seems to be up for debate), and the girl was the one describing it in the tone that Stiles used, I think there would be a lot of people upset. Stiles may not be afraid of werewolves, and he may want to get laid, but that doesn't in itself mean that he'd be okay with what Malia was doing. Maybe the show isn't going to address that further, but that scene still sounded like Stiles was uncomfortable with Malia crawling into his room and bed at night.

(Let's not even mention that these are the same people who see Derek, Malia's maybe cousin, shoving Stiles up against a wall and threatening to tear his throat out with his teeth is "OMG sexual tension.").

In all fairness, the majority of Sterek fans would be no more supportive of people hassling the actress than any other fans. It's unfortunate that entire groups get labeled based on the actions of a few. And not all people who see dub-con in Stalia are even Sterek fans to begin with.

Why not mention it? It's a pretty big hypocrisy IMO.

I don't think so. It's one thing to interpret sexual tension between two people who seem antagonistic towards each other. It's a separate thing to have possible dub-con in a relationship that's being presented as romantic or leaning towards romantic.

Gwen-Stacys · July 20, 2014

Maybe it's an interpretation thing. I agree with those who think that scene reads as dub-con. It may be that JD didn't intend it to, but given how frequently he presents dub-con in relationships and doesn't seem to realize the buttons he hits with some viewers, I'm not surprised that the following week the Stalia scene ignored the implications that seemed to be in that scene. But then, Stalia's been badly written from the start.

People should absolutely not vilify any actress for the role she plays. But criticizing a character who happens to be female isn't automatically vilifying females. The character still stands or falls on the merits of the writing, acting, and directing. The dub-con implications in the "spooning" conversation do hit some very real notes for some people. If the roles were reversed and a guy was sneaking into a girl's room at night, spooning and maybe more (that still seems to be up for debate), and the girl was the one describing it in the tone that Stiles used, I think there would be a lot of people upset. Stiles may not be afraid of werewolves, and he may want to get laid, but that doesn't in itself mean that he'd be okay with what Malia was doing. Maybe the show isn't going to address that further, but that scene still sounded like Stiles was uncomfortable with Malia crawling into his room and bed at night.

In all fairness, the majority of Sterek fans would be no more supportive of people hassling the actress than any other fans. It's unfortunate that entire groups get labeled based on the actions of a few. And not all people who see dub-con in Stalia are even Sterek fans to begin with.

I don't think so. It's one thing to interpret sexual tension between two people who seem antagonistic towards each other. It's a separate thing to have possible dub-con in a relationship that's being presented as romantic or leaning towards romantic.

I think her point is that Derek and Stiles were beyond antagonistic towards each other. A lot of times in their earlier interactions, Derek barely restrained himself from physically accosting Stiles. And I'm pretty sure he slammed Stile's head against a steering wheel for being a smartass. Now if we switched genders with that (Stile's being female) people would be up in arms! But because it's two guys, it's alright. This to me is akin to people complaining about the Tom Ford campaign where he advertises a cologne scent by having a bottle of it stuff between a female model's breast....but don't take into account that he has male counterpoint where there's a male model with the cologne bottle positioned between his spread butt cheeks (sorry for the graphic image, I just had a group discussion about the sexual objectification of models as a whole vs female models only.).

I gave the examples of Caroline and Damon (where she is very visibly in tears afraid of him, very vocal about not wanting to have anything to do with him but he ignored her and compelled her not to be afraid of him...then proceeded to have sexual relations with her. Same thing another character, Katherine, had done to Damon's own brother.) That to me is a case of dub/con. But, to be honest, you're going to get stories full of potential dub/con when dealing with supernatural characters interacting with human characters. It's a thing you have to either be aware of when watching/reading things like this. But back to Malia, nothing in their relationship screams dub/con in that Malia would force Stiles into something he very vocally told her he wasn't okay with. They don't tell you that on the show, they actually show you in the next two episodes. With her begging Stiles to go away because she doesn't want to hurt him or when they were studying and he slid her off of them so that she could go back to studying. Even after he initiated the kissing, she pulled back and reminded him that he wanted to study first.

On a show like Teen Wolf, you can't point out one character being badly written without pointing to the other long term badly written characters on Teen Wolf.

If Jackson's family was so rich, then why did they live across the street from the Lahey's? Why was Jackson so adverse to saying "I love you" if he grew up in an adoptive household that seemed to love and care for him? Hell, they knew he'd been kidnapped because of the things his kidnappers (Scott and Stiles) sent them in a text and immediately went to the police. Was it because adopted children are subconsciously unhappy and unfulfilled (not the case at all most of the time)? /hand wave

Or how about Lydia. She's supposed to be this math whiz genius with the highest gpa she could get in high school (the season 1 episode with the parent teacher conferences)....why is she still in high school? People as intelligent as they're trying to tell us Lydia is usually get skipped a grade or two. She should be done with school. Unless they're trying to tell us that she is technically done with school and just chose to stay with people her age (which can and does happen). It would account for why there have been a few scenes where she's reading books in classes/for classes that have nothing to do with said class (or is in a completely different field altogether.) But then why haven't they told us? How does she know what about a Mongolian draw, but didn't point out to Allison that she still wasn't doing it? So is Lydia only like a walking Jeopardy player or a true genius? I still have problems believing someone as ambitious as she is would be wasting her time in high school but.... /hand wave.

Or why is Derek even tolerating his uncle Peter at this point? Peter killed Derek's older sister who was also, I'm assuming, his alpha. (Peter killed her so that he could become an alpha. Teen Wolf lore says that to be an alpha you have to kill an alpha, Scott McCall excluded.) Not only did Peter kill her, he ripped her in half...pretty violent way for someone you loved and who was part of your pack to go. Yet all we get from Derek about his uncle is "We don't like you." Cora said that losing a member of your pack is like losing a limb. Not only did Derek lose his alpha, he lost what he thought was the last of his family. /hand wave

Or Allison (RIP) who became a bad ass all in the span of less than a year (in actual Teen Wolf time, from Lacrosse season to Lacrosse season.) Yes, we know she was pretty good with a compound bow before Teen Wolf started, but we have her in season 3b whooping up on paid bodyguards? Bodyguards in those positions tend to be ex-military and very well trained....for years. A 17-year-old girl, no matter how well trained, would be no match for them even with the element of surprise on her side. We're almost expected to believe she's Alexandra Udinov level of badass (I say her and not Nikita because Alli and Alex were similarly aged) . /hand wave

Malia lived as a coyote from the age of 8 (where most children have a firm grasp on their language and an outline on human interaction rules/customs)to the age of 16. We don't see her again for a month or so at Eichen house where she still acts on instinct but she has a firm grasp on the English language. Not a big stretch considering she could speak in fluently at one point in her life (it's easier to teach people a language if they once spoke it or something similar to it.) and she's a were-creature. You could fanwank that being a were-creature sped up her recovery time considerably. (In season 1 Derek healed fatal wounds in a few days. Liam's leg healed the same night Scott bit him, the bite healed completely the day after.) She's still not 100% on everything, but they've made a point in showing her emulating other people. For example, when she and Scott were fighting the Berzerkers, she paused long enough to see what he was doing before she tried to do the same. Another one would be her watching Kira's reactions at Lacrosse tryouts and then learning to copy them. And before it's said, her "Do-over" outburst is something an 8 or 9 year old would do.

Now, onto her punching Stiles in the face for his part in turning her human when she never wanted to be human in the first place. Honestly, it was well deserved. They turned her back, primarily, to help Big Stilinski solve a case and help him keep his job. They never came back to check on the girl to see how she was doing. Stiles was super surprised to see that she was even there. Basically, they shattered her entire world and then bailed to let her pick up the pieces on her own. The writers did, however, tie back into that with her inability to control herself during a full moon (it was because she still feels guilty for killing her mom and sister).

My point? All the characters on Teen Wolf are badly written on the outset, but they've been developed nicely in spite of it. For the most part. Teen Wolf is a fluff summer show that is full of potholes and things you usually have to handwave, but it's entertaining. It's only meant to be entertainment not win Emmy's or Golden Globes. Don't point out one badly written character just because she's new and you don't like a relationship she's in.

Tl;dr version? Teen Wolf isn't known for having well constructed characters/story lines. This is a show on MTV not HBO, it ain't gonna win a Golden Globe anytime soon...if ever. Don't point out a tree for being a tree in a forest.

ElleryAnne · July 21, 2014

I think her point is that Derek and Stiles were beyond antagonistic towards each other. A lot of times in their earlier interactions, Derek barely restrained himself from physically accosting Stiles. And I'm pretty sure he slammed Stile's head against a steering wheel for being a smartass. Now if we switched genders with that (Stile's being female) people would be up in arms! But because it's two guys, it's alright.

But there are some very significant differences, the main one being that Derek and Stiles aren't presented as a romantic couple in which one of them slammed the other's head into a steering wheel. You wouldn't have to switch genders for people to be appalled if someone did that to a person they were supposedly involved with - there's just a different expectation in how you treat someone you care for (regardless of gender) vs. someone you're only working with out of necessity - and one who earlier in the evening pretty much pimped you out as eye candy in order to get help from someone else, at that.

I gave the examples of Caroline and Damon (where she is very visibly in tears afraid of him, very vocal about not wanting to have anything to do with him but he ignored her and compelled her not to be afraid of him...then proceeded to have sexual relations with her. Same thing another character, Katherine, had done to Damon's own brother.) That to me is a case of dub/con.

I don't know Caroline and Damon, but that doesn't sound like dub-con. That sounds like non-con.

On a show like Teen Wolf, you can't point out one character being badly written without pointing to the other long term badly written characters on Teen Wolf.

That's not even possible. In a show like Teen Wolf, if you had to address everything that was badly written just to discuss one thing that was, then every post would be even longer than we've already proven we're capable of writing. :) Since this is the Malia thread, and since she was introduced in a way that made no sense, and then was very quickly thrown into a relationship with a main character under dubious circumstances, the bad writing about her tends to end up here. FWIW, I've always thought it was really stupid that Jackson's house was across the street from the Lahey's, too.

Tl;dr version? Teen Wolf isn't known for having well constructed characters/story lines. This is a show on MTV not HBO, it ain't gonna win a Golden Globe anytime soon...if ever. Don't point out a tree for being a tree in a forest.

So.... we can't talk about what we feel is wrong about a character, because the show isn't good enough to win awards anyway? That's Moff's Law.

ahisma · July 21, 2014

And I'm pretty sure he slammed Stile's head against a steering wheel for being a smartass.

Actually, he slammed Stiles' head into a steering wheel because Stiles was an absolute dick about pimping him out to strip in front of Danny in a situation where Derek had no power (suspected of murder. Again). Talk about a switching genders, if Stiles had had Lydia or Allison do a striptease to manipulate someone, he would have earned himself a smack from either of them, too. (And then Derek immediately afterwards saved Stiles' life from rogueAlpha!Peter.)

nothing in their relationship screams dub/con in that Malia would force Stiles into something he very vocally told her he wasn't okay with

That is actually the definition of non-con, and no one (that I know of) has accused Malia of that. Dubious consent is a situation where there is not clear, enthusiastic consent from both sides. From what was shown in that one scene where Stiles was talking to Scott, it looked extremely questionable. It is very common for sexually inexperienced people to not speak up when they are not 100% on board with what's happening because, well, they do want sex (even if it's not exactly the way they wanted it), or they don't want to hurt the other person's feelings in an intimate situation, or they're overwhelmed in the situation—a multitude of factors can apply that don't apply in the way they act with others normally. However just because Stiles didn't speak up to Malia doesn't mean he was happy about the midnight visits, the injuries, or the spooning. This is what many of us saw in that scene.

However, I acknowledged (and others on this board have acknowledged) that from the way that Malia and Stiles were portrayed in the next episode, it appears that it is not Jeff's intention to portray their relationship that way, and no one that I know of on this board is currently accusing Malia of dub-con.

Nor do I know of anyone in this community piling on to Malia's characterization exclusively. In fact, it's Scott's mysteriously absent alpha powers that are getting the majority of commenters' ire with the writers right now. Yes, Teen Wolf is full of characterization driven by plot necessities rather than logic or consistency. Malia bore the brunt of it for the first few eps of the season, and now Scott is getting it, and surely another character will be placed in a ridiculous situation within the next few weeks. We bitch because we love. :-)

ETA: ElleryAnne, you beat me to the post!

Edited July 21, 2014 by ahisma

Gwen-Stacys · July 21, 2014

However, I acknowledged (and others on this board have acknowledged) that from the way that Malia and Stiles were portrayed in the next episode, it appears that it is not Jeff's intention to portray their relationship that way, and no one that I know of on this board is currently accusing Malia of dub-con.

Nor do I know of anyone in this community piling on to Malia's characterization exclusively. In fact, it's Scott's mysteriously absent alpha powers that are getting the majority of commenters' ire with the writers right now. Yes, Teen Wolf is full of characterization driven by plot necessities rather than logic or consistency. Malia bore the brunt of it for the first few eps of the season, and now Scott is getting it, and surely another character will be placed in a ridiculous situation within the next few weeks. We bitch because we love. :-)

I was responding to posts that said their was dub/con based on Stile's reaction. And on this board since it's the Malia board it's all I see....(also don't go on tumblr. Don't ever go on tumblr. Actresses (mostly Shelley and Holland) are getting called fat and it's made me very defensive. Tumblr is worse than the Youtube comment section)

Oh I know! We all bitch about something or other on this show (same as defending), if we didn't we probably wouldn't be watching anymore ;-)

So.... we can't talk about what we feel is wrong about a character, because the show isn't good enough to win awards anyway? That's Moff's Law.

Let's not point out a tree for being a tree in a forest. Meaning lets not point out a badly written character on an MTV show of badly written characters. Or just agree to disagree.

What I'm saying is, specifically, that I like Malia and I like what I've seen of Stalia so far (and so do a lot of the paid reviewers of the show....who are also quick to point out the head scratchers in her plot. And apparently a good portion of the viewing audience, non fandom, likes her as well.) You don't because you say she's badly written and that's fine. I like her in-light of her character plot holes and I like that Dylan has someone in Shelley (being an daytime Emmy nominee) that he can act against. I think Malia is funny and adorable. I find nothing dub/con-y about their relationship. You and Ashima do and that's fine. We can argue about it until we're blue in the face but neither of us are going to change the other's mind.

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