Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[peacheslatour]

Quote

And as for Benson/Stabler, I don't get the hype there at all and sort of resent the be-all, end-all they get. I think the Mothership and CI and Goren/Eames are just as good, if not better. Shrug. But mileage and whatnot.

You're always going the have shippers. I find every one of them annoying, whether they be E/O shippers or Seigfried/Mrs. Hall shippers on All Creatures or Ross/Rachel on Friends.

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I do recall as far back as the SVU pilot, where Stabler was actually sort of warning about Benson ironically getting too involved, and there was a nod given to how detectives do not stay in SVU too long due to burnout. (More irony, considering.)

So, I choose to think TPTB decided to make Elliot that burnout.

I don't think Bobby was meant to be another Elliot. They clearly had different backgrounds and upbringings. I think Warren Leight just wanted more dramaaaaaaaa, so Bobby went from capable and quirky to the whackjob that the brass hated. Which is a big trope on many a cop show. Shrug.

And I don't think that empathy ever really left Bobby. Yes, his personal demons got in the way, but his speech in S10 to Elise Clark when talking to her as she sat in the jail cell about how he thought victims needed an advocate, not to mention in therapy, how he was angry on Vanessa Colway's behalf because of her user father, how "she does everything for him and he does nothing for her. He's a piece of..." as he trailed off, leading to talk of his own father [and his omission of Brady as he delicately tap danced around that!].

Bobby grew tired, but unlike Elliot, I still got the sense that Bobby still cared deeply and that weariness and bitterness hadn't yet bested him as it did to Stabler.

I clearly think too much about these characters and their motivations. LOL! But hey, TV board! 😋

And as for Benson/Stabler, I don't get the hype there at all and sort of resent the be-all, end-all they get. I think the Mothership and CI and Goren/Eames are just as good, if not better. Shrug. But mileage and whatnot.

Yeah I agree that Goren never lost his compassion and empathy, and I agree that the new showrunner just wanted more melodrama so that’s why they did what they did with Goren. It pisses me off that they went down that route with Goren and it’s why I don’t consider those seasons nearly as good as the others. And it made no sense that the higher ups disliked Goren - yes Goren was kind of unusual but he closed a lot of big cases, it would seem like the higher ups would love having someone like him around. It just didn’t make sense to me.       
I totally agree about Benson and Stabler getting way too much of the glory and attention, and like I said I think it’s because modern day SVU specializes in more soapy, more sensationalistic storylines over just having regular cases. I prefer the regular cases, which is why the Mothership is my favorite, and CI deserves a lot more recognition than it gets IMO. Yes Stabler/Benson have been a part of many great SVU episodes but the other shows are just as good and there are a lot of characters I like better than Stabler and Benson, I have issues with both of them, particularly with the Olivia Benson of modern day SVU. 

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

You're always going the have shippers. I find every one of them annoying, whether they be E/O shippers or Seigfried/Mrs. Hall shippers on All Creatures or Ross/Rachel on Friends.

The die hard shippers are annoying IMO - I’m fine with people shipping whoever they feel but when they start insulting people who don’t support their ship is when they become very irritating. The Benson/Stabler shippers on SVU are some of the worst about this, some of them go bonkers if anyone is against their ship, and the writers seem completely on board with the ship and love to pander to them, and then when the writers don’t do everything the shippers want they go nuts. It’s very frustrating that SVU has become a soapy romance show now basically, it’s not at all what the franchise is supposed to be about. I know some people shipped Goren/Eames on CI, and I thought the writers did a good job of ending CI in a way that didn’t go soapy but didn’t completely discount the idea of a possible relationship in the future between Goren/Eames, it was a good ending for all fans of the characters, whether they were “shippers” or not. Unfortunately SVU has gone full blown fanfic soap opera. 

[wknt3]

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’ve never connected that, Goren and Stabler are very different characters, but I’ve commented many times on how much I hate what they did to Goren in seasons 6-7, it was bizarre how out of nowhere they gave him a ton of personal baggage, took away his mojo and liveliness, and had people thinking he’s a “whack job” instead of an excellent detective. It was just a terrible decision, and I have no idea why they tried to make the show a soap opera.

 

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I don't think Bobby was meant to be another Elliot. They clearly had different backgrounds and upbringings. I think Warren Leight just wanted more dramaaaaaaaa, so Bobby went from capable and quirky to the whackjob that the brass hated. Which is a big trope on many a cop show. Shrug.

It very well may have been case of art imitating life. VDO going through his own exhaustion and health issues may simply not have been capable of bringing the same energy and vitality to the role so they had to try to come up with some dramatic explanation - it isn't like he was a secondary character that they could simply write his health issues in like they did with Bell's Palsy. So they hit him with Warren Leight's Sledgehammer of Family Drama and played up the angle of traditional cops not really trusting him despite the results.

 

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I agree with your rant about Stabler and how he got angrier and devolved some as the show went on, they did damage to his character as well.

I think Stabler/Benson get talked about way too much - there are so many great characters in the franchise, why do Benson/Stabler get all of the attention? I think it’s because SVU is a sensationalist soap opera now, with the romance angle as well, while the Mothership and for the most part CI are all about the cases.

They get the attention because they are still around and because in the beginning there really was an intense and organic chemistry. Plus unlike other pairings that might have been comparable this one features a performer that has been perfectly willing to lean into it and actively worked up the shippers to service her ego. As have the network, the showrunners, etc.

Edited September 21, 2023 by wknt3
fix typo

[WendyCR72]

For anyone who plans on watching the show on Charge! coming up, not only is there the long Sunday into Monday morning marathon on the first, but now listings also have late night/early morning airings on the 4th and 5th [Wednesday and Thursday] from 9:00 p.m. until 1:00 a.m.

[WendyCR72]

Whoops, a correction to the post directly above: After the intro marathon on Sunday/Monday, 10/1-2, the schedule is 9:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. ET apparently Monday through Friday.

I say apparently, because the schedule on their page only goes through Wednesday the 4th now, but as that time period has the same pattern from Monday through Wednesday, I assume it will also be for Thursday and Friday.

[WendyCR72]

Another website, another arbitrary list.

Slate has a list of the best stand-alone episodes on television. Among those on the list includes the Homicide: Life On The Street episode, "Subway".

Scroll to 1997 [episodes from the shows seem to be chosen by year!], and the write up is there, if interested!

[WendyCR72]

"Untethered" aired among the three-episode late-night block last night [where Goren goes undercover at Tates Prison].

And something occurred to me which should have long before now, considering how often it has aired:

Wouldn't Goren's prints be on file since he is a police detective? How in the world could he have claimed to be someone else? I mean, if the undercover deal was official, yeah, the department would handle the details, I suppose.

But Goren did this all himself, so...

Shrug.

And hey! October 1st is soon here with the Charge! marathon on Sunday/Monday, before the nightly schedule there. Time flies.

[Xeliou66]

21 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

"Untethered" aired among the three-episode late-night block last night [where Goren goes undercover at Tates Prison].

And something occurred to me which should have long before now, considering how often it has aired:

Wouldn't Goren's prints be on file since he is a police detective? How in the world could he have claimed to be someone else? I mean, if the undercover deal was official, yeah, the department would handle the details, I suppose.

But Goren did this all himself, so...

Shrug.

And hey! October 1st is soon here with the Charge! marathon on Sunday/Monday, before the nightly schedule there. Time flies.

I’ve never thought of that, but you’re right, his prints would be on file. Huge plot hole there. Oh well, another reason to dislike that storyline along with all of the other angst that they put Goren through, I really hate how they gave him so much baggage and made the show into a soap opera. 

[WendyCR72]

37 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’ve never thought of that, but you’re right, his prints would be on file. Huge plot hole there. Oh well, another reason to dislike that storyline along with all of the other angst that they put Goren through, I really hate how they gave him so much baggage and made the show into a soap opera. 

I guess if you watch any show for any length of time, the plot holes tend to make themselves known. I can barely watch "Untethered" as I cannot take the torture near the end.

But I'm sure VDO liked the challenge.

[Xeliou66]

23 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I guess if you watch any show for any length of time, the plot holes tend to make themselves known. I can barely watch "Untethered" as I cannot take the torture near the end.

But I'm sure VDO liked the challenge.

Untethered is definitely a disturbing episode. I just really dislike how they gave Goren a ton of personal problems and turned the show into a soap opera in seasons 6-7, it was a much different and drastically weaker show. 

[WendyCR72]

"Poison" with sociopath Trudy Pomeranski is in progress on Charge!. I never understood just why her mother just didn't let her witch of a daughter face the consequences. Yes, it is her child, but willing to go to prison for her?! Not me.

I mean, the mother at least seemed to have a conscience. Just a bit of a head scratcher in an otherwise good episode.

[peacheslatour]

19 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

"Poison" with sociopath Trudy Pomeranski is in progress on Charge!. I never understood just why her mother just didn't let her witch of a daughter face the consequences. Yes, it is her child, but willing to go to prison for her?! Not me.

I mean, the mother at least seemed to have a conscience. Just a bit of a head scratcher in an otherwise good episode.

I mean she killed SEVEN people so she could sell baby clothes. What a psycho. I hope they let her mother off when they arrested Trudy.

[WendyCR72]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

I mean she killed SEVEN people so she could sell baby clothes. What a psycho. I hope they let her mother off when they arrested Trudy.

Oh, I'm sure the mother had the charges dropped. But if I were her, I would have let my demon spawn face the consequences from word go, not tried to cover for her. Child or not, as you said, she killed seven people, including her own husband!

[peacheslatour]

Just now, WendyCR72 said:

Oh, I'm sure the mother had the charges dropped. But if I were her, I would have let my demon spawn face the consequences from word go, not tried to cover for her. Child or not, as you said, she killed seven people, including her own husband!

I don't think mom really knew what the hell was going on. As Trudy said, she wasn't that bright.

[WendyCR72]

45 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I don't think mom really knew what the hell was going on. As Trudy said, she wasn't that bright.

I think she knew, hence her confronting Trudy when Trudy went on her tirade about how she [Trudy] was finally happy.

What a psycho.

[Xeliou66]

Trudy’s mom just seemed spineless and pathetic and not that bright. So yeah I thought it was kind of fitting for her character to just stand mute at her arraignment. Trudy was a pure sociopath, killing 7 people, 6 of whom she didn’t even know, just so she could start her boutique. It’s a great episode. What I’ve always wondered, as I’ve said before, is how Goren convinced Carver to indict the mom, because it was a big risk, if Trudy didn’t take the bait and incriminate herself, they would be stuck in a bad situation. I thought that was kind of skipped over - it seemed like it would be a hard sell to convince Carver, and for Carver to convince Nora Lewin, to do that. But it’s a great episode regardless.    
I love seeing Briscoe/Green appear in Poison, it was great to see them share a scene with Goren/Eames, and I loved how Goren suggested Briscoe/Green leak the story to the media and then just stayed quiet about it when Deakins got pissed. 

[WendyCR72]

"Poison" was one of the only times I thought Deakins was in the wrong; the public did have a right to know about the danger. So I'm glad that Goren/Eames spilled to Briscoe/Greene!

[WendyCR72]

Huh.

Watching "The Third Horseman" now, and it's funny how I never noticed a parallel in the investigation room. During Bobby's final interrogation with Griscom, he shouts, "Come on, Dennis! SAY IT!"

And it's sort of the same way he went after Johnny in "The Consoler" so many years later in S10 with his, "Come on, Johnny! COME ON!"

So, even older, Bobby still kept some consistency with his technique left over from his more intense years!

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

"Poison" was one of the only times I thought Deakins was in the wrong; the public did have a right to know about the danger. So I'm glad that Goren/Eames spilled to Briscoe/Greene!

Agreed 100%. I thought it was the correct move for Goren to suggest Briscoe/Green leak the story, and Briscoe/Green were right to do it, and I loved how Goren/Eames stayed quiet when Deakins wasn’t happy. It was one of the few times I was annoyed with Deakins - the public needed to know, it was an issue of public safety. 
I loved the whole scene with Briscoe/Green, particularly Lennie calling the commissioner’s office “those idiots”. It was great to see 4 of the best detectives in the franchise interact. 
It’s a great episode, I just would’ve liked a bit of exploration into how Goren convinced Carver to indict the mom.

[WendyCR72]

16 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

It’s a great episode, I just would’ve liked a bit of exploration into how Goren convinced Carver to indict the mom.

Circumstantially, I sort of get it. The mom was a patient at the same time the murders were committed, and there was the mailing info from the woman's deceased husband's business. (That Trudy used for the mailing address of the poison.) So, on the surface, I could see how Mrs. Pomeranski could be considered a suspect.

Though since she was apparently in the hospital for some lung OPERATION, I doubt she'd have the strength, but more plot device there...

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Circumstantially, I sort of get it. The mom was a patient at the same time the murders were committed, and there was the mailing info from the woman's deceased husband's business. (That Trudy used for the mailing address of the poison.) So, on the surface, I could see how Mrs. Pomeranski could be considered a suspect.

Though since she was apparently in the hospital for some lung OPERATION, I doubt she'd have the strength, but more plot device there...

Oh I completely get why she was considered a suspect and why Goren used her to get Trudy to incriminate herself - I’m just saying if Trudy hadn’t incriminated herself they would be stuck in a rough situation, and so it seems like it would take some convincing to get Carver to go along with it, since the plan not working would lead to trouble. It seemed like that was just glossed over.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Xeliou66

[WendyCR72]

So, I see Sundance is airing the show out of order in terms of seasons. "Frame" - the S7 finale - ended at 1, so naturally, the next episode was the premiere episode of Season...10, "Rispetto". LOL!

But I like S10, so I'll live with it.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So, I see Sundance is airing the show out of order in terms of seasons. "Frame" - the S7 finale - ended at 1, so naturally, the next episode was the premiere episode of Season...10, "Rispetto". LOL!

But I like S10, so I'll live with it.

"INSTINCT!"

[WendyCR72]

22 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

"INSTINCT!"

Jay Mohr bought the crazy!

Then the marathon concluded with "The Consoler", with Goren interrogating Johnny, which I brought up in connection to the interrogation style also in "The Third Horseman" from S1. Funny how both episodes aired a day apart.

[TakomaSnark]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:16 PM, WendyCR72 said:

"Poison" with sociopath Trudy Pomeranski is in progress on Charge!. I never understood just why her mother just didn't let her witch of a daughter face the consequences. Yes, it is her child, but willing to go to prison for her?! Not me.

I mean, the mother at least seemed to have a conscience. Just a bit of a head scratcher in an otherwise good episode.

Not gonna lie, I love the TATS episode for 'Poison.' I wish they'd do more CI in their rotation but apparently those are the least downloaded/listened to segments.

 

 

 

[WendyCR72]

Seems the Toronto spinoff must be getting things in order to begin filming. Two Canadian actors, Karn Kalra and Simon Wong, are now on the spinoff IMDB page as being in the first episode.

Of course, IMDB listings are fluid, but that is what's there now.

[peacheslatour]

I watched Cadaver today and at one point Mrs. Zhuang actually had Goren backed into a corner. Comical to see the big man being walked back by a little, tiny woman.

[WendyCR72]

13 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I watched Cadaver today and at one point Mrs. Zhuang actually had Goren backed into a corner. Comical to see the big man being walked back by a little, tiny woman.

She sounded like a complete nut as a mom, too. No pets, no friends over, etc. Is it any wonder her husband took off and her older daughter also peaced out?

No wonder Maya cracked under the pressure and helped her murdering mama.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

She sounded like a complete nut as a mom, too. No pets, no friends over, etc. Is it any wonder her husband took off and her older daughter also peaced out?

No wonder Maya cracked under the pressure and helped her murdering mama.

Yeah, she was somewhat off her rocker it seemed. A nasty witch. I doubt Maya would ever be okay. It is a good episode.

[WendyCR72]

Seems Annabella Sciorra wasn't the only one to have issues with Harvey Weinstein.

Julia Ormond (Dr. Paula Gyson) apparently filed a lawsuit against Disney due to issues with the dirtbag.

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Seems Annabella Sciorra wasn't the only one to have issues with Harvey Weinstein.

Julia Ormond (Dr. Paula Gyson) apparently filed a lawsuit against Disney due to issues with the dirtbag.

UGH, how awful. Poor Julia.

[WendyCR72]

Nothing else of interest was on to me so I have "Semi-Professional" on on Charge! now.

While it's nice to have another station as an option to watch the show that isn't half reality trash, the commercial breaks are annoying a lot of the time, often in the middle of a scene, while the actual areas for a break don't and go to the next scene.

Just...weird.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Nothing else of interest was on to me so I have "Semi-Professional" on on Charge! now.

While it's nice to have another station as an option to watch the show that isn't half reality trash, the commercial breaks are annoying a lot of the time, often in the middle of a scene, while the actual areas for a break don't and go to the next scene.

Just...weird.

I’ve noticed that as well on Charge, it’s very odd when the commercial breaks take place. 

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’ve noticed that as well on Charge, it’s very odd when the commercial breaks take place. 

CI is going to be on Charge all day Sunday.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

CI is going to be on Charge all day Sunday.

I guess the first marathon was a success...

[TakomaSnark]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’ve noticed that as well on Charge, it’s very odd when the commercial breaks take place. 

Oh Tubi and Freevee do that *all* the time with old shows and movies. Like, literally mid-sentence, they'll cutaway to an ad.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, TakomaSnark said:

Oh Tubi and Freevee do that *all* the time with old shows and movies. Like, literally mid-sentence, they'll cutaway to an ad.

It really is annoying, and it makes any given scene disjointed.

[WendyCR72]

No long marathon next Sunday on Charge! as movies are listed, but I guess the channel still wants to keep the weekend hot streak going as the 9:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. weeknight blocks will extend to Saturday the 14th.

Just a heads up if anyone was curious.

[WendyCR72]

Maybe because business stuff sort of bores me, but watching "Tuxedo Hill" on Charge!, that angle really drags for me [I know it is all based on Bernie Madoff and Enron and whatnot, but...yawn!].

But it is saved by Goren literally cornering the rat boss at the end and Goren's "accounting trick" rant...

I do like "Dead", which comes next, with cold as ice [and Captain Hannah twin!], Harry Rowan.

[WendyCR72]

One other thought about "Tuxedo Hill" that I thought of: The fiancé gets pissed at the end when she discovers that Jack Hawley sold all the stock, which was all the money that Karen Milner's parents had.

Okay, fine.

But I don't understand why G/E and Carver just let her leave after she outed Hawley. She did lie during the investigation. She should have been charged for obstruction of justice!

Just a crumb that irks me.

[WendyCR72]

No matter how many times I see it, G/E playing the yuppie couple in the shoe store in "Anti-Thesis" never fails to crack me up. [Just aired on Charge!.]

[WendyCR72]

Seems the Canadian offshoot has added a bunch more cast/characters to its IMDB page. (Unsure if any are permanent cast or just guest roles.) Seems like this might be taking shape.

[TakomaSnark]

On 10/9/2023 at 10:18 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Maybe because business stuff sort of bores me, but watching "Tuxedo Hill" on Charge!, that angle really drags for me [I know it is all based on Bernie Madoff and Enron and whatnot, but...yawn!].

But it is saved by Goren literally cornering the rat boss at the end and Goren's "accounting trick" rant...

I do like "Dead", which comes next, with cold as ice [and Captain Hannah twin!], Harry Rowan.

It was based on Enron but Madoff wasn't a scandal until six years later (Mothership took it's cue for that one with 'Anchors Away,' featuring Jill Eikenberry and Edward Herrmann).

[TakomaSnark]

Jeez, Charge actually blurred the blood around the victim during the post-cold open of 'Cold Comfort.' I pulled up the episode from an older YTTV recording, thinking it was something else (a forbidden logo, etc.). Nope.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, TakomaSnark said:

Jeez, Charge actually blurred the blood around the victim during the post-cold open of 'Cold Comfort.' I pulled up the episode from an older YTTV recording, thinking it was something else (a forbidden logo, etc.). Nope.

It also speeds up/doesn't play all of the theme. Watching the end where they walk, it's in major fast forward fashion.

Forget which episode and which word, but I also recall some "bad" word excised [the dialogue goes silent].

This is on late at night. Why the need for the "nanny" editing?

[Xeliou66]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

It also speeds up/doesn't play all of the theme. Watching the end where they walk, it's in major fast forward fashion.

Forget which episode and which word, but I also recall some "bad" word excised [the dialogue goes silent].

This is on late at night. Why the need for the "nanny" editing?

I’ve noticed a couple of censored words as well on Charge, as well as the odd times it goes to commercial break. Very weird. While it’s nice to have another network showing CI, it makes it less enjoyable.

[WendyCR72]

Showing so many episodes at a time, like WE, the seasons go at a fast clip on Charge!, too.

While it is now airing Season 2 as I type this, Season 5 is set to start on the 27th. It appears that "In The Wee Small Hours" will be shown twice, late night on the 28th, again a Saturday, and it appears there must be another mini Sunday marathon of sorts on the 29th, a Sunday, as "Wee..." is also scheduled for 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Mentioning that episode specifically since many here like it.

[Xeliou66]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Showing so many episodes at a time, like WE, the seasons go at a fast clip on Charge!, too.

While it is now airing Season 2 as I type this, Season 5 is set to start on the 27th. It appears that "In The Wee Small Hours" will be shown twice, late night on the 28th, again a Saturday, and it appears there must be another mini Sunday marathon of sorts on the 29th, a Sunday, as "Wee..." is also scheduled for 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Mentioning that episode specifically since many here like it.

Interesting that they are showing it on back to back days. It’s nice to have CI on another network, even if it’s odd when they go to commercial breaks on that network. 
As you know, In The Wee Small Hours is my favorite CI episode, it’s a near perfect episode with a great plot and I love seeing the 2 pairings of detectives working together.

[peacheslatour]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Interesting that they are showing it on back to back days. It’s nice to have CI on another network, even if it’s odd when they go to commercial breaks on that network. 
As you know, In The Wee Small Hours is my favorite CI episode, it’s a near perfect episode with a great plot and I love seeing the 2 pairings of detectives working together.

I have to keep reminding myself it's on Charge now. But I'm glad it is.