Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[WendyCR72]

Never heard of Mutha, so he is a two-time author! Cool!

And..."soon-to-be ex-wife"?! This sort of shocks me as he always seemed so happy. Guess we really never know what goes on in private. Hope it is amicable, if just for the sake of their kids.

ETA: Seems one of their two kids is an adult. Still, my post stands, as I imagine this would be tough at any age.

[Xeliou66]

Mad Hops was just on - I like this episode a lot and how Goren ties the 2 murders together and gets to the bottom of the case. As I’ve said before - there are vague similarities between this episode and Crazy from season 1 in that both murderers were obsessed with and willing to kill for a woman who wasn’t interested in them and was just stringing them along. Coach Powell was just pathetic, so fixated on spending his future with Karen Watkins that he was willing to kill 2 people, he was scum. Karen Watkins wasn’t likable either, she didn’t care at all about Powell, she just was using him to help her son, I wonder how her or her son would go on knowing Powell killed 2 people for them. Really good episode, and I love the scene in the morgue where Rodgers swats Goren’s hand away when he wanted to take a sample from the victim’s nose, it was always amusing when Rodgers would get irritated when detectives got up close with the bodies. 

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Mad Hops was just on - I like this episode a lot and how Goren ties the 2 murders together and gets to the bottom of the case. As I’ve said before - there are vague similarities between this episode and Crazy from season 1 in that both murderers were obsessed with and willing to kill for a woman who wasn’t interested in them and was just stringing them along. Coach Powell was just pathetic, so fixated on spending his future with Karen Watkins that he was willing to kill 2 people, he was scum. Karen Watkins wasn’t likable either, she didn’t care at all about Powell, she just was using him to help her son, I wonder how her or her son would go on knowing Powell killed 2 people for them. Really good episode, and I love the scene in the morgue where Rodgers swats Goren’s hand away when he wanted to take a sample from the victim’s nose, it was always amusing when Rodgers would get irritated when detectives got up close with the bodies. 

The story Goren told about his dad eating over the sink and comparing that to the coach's life was sort of sad, though.

But it definitely outlined just how desperate the coach was to snag Karen Watkins. I do agree she, like Sarah Lindstrom in "Crazy", was an unlikable user.

I get she wanted to give her son some life advantages, but it's clear she had no interest in the coach but was willing to play along.

[peacheslatour]

14 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The story Goren told about his dad eating over the sink and comparing that to the coach's life was sort of sad, though.

But it definitely outlined just how desperate the coach was to snag Karen Watkins. I do agree she, like Sarah Lindstrom in "Crazy", was an unlikable user.

I get she wanted to give her son some life advantages, but it's clear she had no interest in the coach but was willing to play along.

Her only saving grace, to me, was that she reminded me of Lena Horne, who I loved.

[Xeliou66]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The story Goren told about his dad eating over the sink and comparing that to the coach's life was sort of sad, though.

But it definitely outlined just how desperate the coach was to snag Karen Watkins. I do agree she, like Sarah Lindstrom in "Crazy", was an unlikable user.

I get she wanted to give her son some life advantages, but it's clear she had no interest in the coach but was willing to play along.

Powell was definitely very lonely, but I didn’t feel any sympathy for him, he came off as just pathetic, and how could he not see that Karen was just stringing him along? It was obvious she had no interest in him. 
It’s interesting the similarities between this episode and Crazy from season 1 - with men obsessed with a woman who’s stringing them along willing to kill to try to have a chance with the woman. I’ve never really understood why Sara from Crazy was even spending time with creepy Charlie Webb when she clearly wasn’t interested in him, I didn’t see what she got from it, whereas in this one it was clear Karen was using the coach to get her son a scholarship. Coach Powell wasn’t as outwardly creepy as Dr Webb, but he was just as desperate. 

[WendyCR72]

The scene in "Cherry Red" where Bobby gets into Roger's very expensive car was just on. It'll never not be a fun scene, with Alex telling Bobby, "You have to come out now!"

Bobby was instantly a kid again there.

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Powell was definitely very lonely, but I didn’t feel any sympathy for him, he came off as just pathetic, and how could he not see that Karen was just stringing him along? It was obvious she had no interest in him. 
It’s interesting the similarities between this episode and Crazy from season 1 - with men obsessed with a woman who’s stringing them along willing to kill to try to have a chance with the woman. I’ve never really understood why Sara from Crazy was even spending time with creepy Charlie Webb when she clearly wasn’t interested in him, I didn’t see what she got from it, whereas in this one it was clear Karen was using the coach to get her son a scholarship. Coach Powell wasn’t as outwardly creepy as Dr Webb, but he was just as desperate. 

Oh, he was absolutely desperate! And if my posts sounded like I sympathized, I didn't. The coach, in his own way, was just as evil and pathetic as Dr. Webb in "Crazy".

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The scene in "Cherry Red" where Bobby gets into Roger's very expensive car was just on. It'll never not be a fun scene, with Alex telling Bobby, "You have to come out now!"

Bobby was instantly a kid again there.

Oh, he was absolutely desperate! And if my posts sounded like I sympathized, I didn't. The coach, in his own way, was just as evil and pathetic as Dr. Webb in "Crazy".

I’m not sure how both Webb and Coach Powell didn’t realize that they were being strung along and used by the woman they were obsessed with. I guess they were so obsessed that they weren’t seeing things clearly. 

[WendyCR72]

On 8/20/2023 at 1:15 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I’m not sure how both Webb and Coach Powell didn’t realize that they were being strung along and used by the woman they were obsessed with. I guess they were so obsessed that they weren’t seeing things clearly. 

Coach Powell, not sure. But Charles Webb said in the room after Bobby confronted him about the murder, "Don't you see? She was my last chance."

I guess Webb didn't care if Sarah loved him as he probably felt she could "learn" to and, even if she didn't, at least he could delude himself into thinking he had a "hot" girlfriend and wouldn't be all alone.

[Xeliou66]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Coach Powell, not sure. But Charles Web said in the room after Bobby confronted him about the murder, "Don't you see? She was my last chance."

I guess Webb didn't care if Sarah loved him as he probably felt she could "learn" to and, even if she didn't, at least he could delude himself into thinking he had a "hot" girlfriend and wouldn't be all alone.

Yeah I think both Powell and Webb were very desperate, they were aging and didn’t want to be alone and desperately wanted a relationship with a woman who didn’t care about them and were just using them. It’s an interesting parallel between the two episodes. Both are strong episodes. Mad Hops might be my favorite of the Bishop episodes.

[Shadow Lass]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:34 PM, Clawdette said:

Declan is an Anglican derivation of the Irish Deaglán.

Oh, okay! When I looked it up, it said it was French.

[Shadow Lass]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:41 PM, WendyCR72 said:

One of the episodes I watched was Alex Cabot's first episode, the S2 premiere, "Wrong Is Right". And not having seen that one in...God, forever...I was a bit thrown when the young perp had the name of Michael Goren.

I just thought it was something how the name Goren popped up, as it doesn't seem as common as Smith, Jones, or Johnson, etc.

Early SVU was light years better, IMO. But...mileage.

As an aside, when I was watching CI on Peacock, the episode in the last five minutes or so cut out, and then began the next episode! Anyone else having such an issue with Peacock?

I've been watching early SVU, and man, it's pretty much an entirely different series from what airs now. The current episodes are just "Olivia Benson comforts the victim, gives a speech, and saves the day" next to the old ones. I love Alex Cabot! Carisi never gets anything so good to do.

When I was a kid "Goren" was a name I read every single day. Charles Goren wrote over a dozen books about his expertise, contract bridge, and he had a daily bridge column in the newspaper.

Peacock seems to have a fixed time period for each episode to run, and if the episode runs over that time, the next one just starts. I had trouble with several CI episodes.

[Shadow Lass]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:28 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Coach Powell, not sure. But Charles Webb said in the room after Bobby confronted him about the murder, "Don't you see? She was my last chance."

I guess Webb didn't care if Sarah loved him as he probably felt she could "learn" to and, even if she didn't, at least he could delude himself into thinking he had a "hot" girlfriend and wouldn't be all alone.

Speaking of Charles Webb, in my watch of SVU I found Michael Gross playing another older man married to younger woman who turns out to be a scuzzball, the very same year he did "Crazy."

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Shadow Lass said:

Speaking of Charles Webb, in my watch of SVU I found Michael Gross playing another older man married to younger woman who turns out to be a scuzzball, the very same year he did "Crazy."

I'm guessing Michael Gross didn't mind being typecast as sleazy or sleaze adjacent! (His Jack Carter on ER wasn't, but he was sort of a "cold" man.)

I guess he was branching out after playing the perennially-nice Steven Keaton on Family Ties for so many years!

3 hours ago, Shadow Lass said:

Peacock seems to have a fixed time period for each episode to run, and if the episode runs over that time, the next one just starts. I had trouble with several CI episodes.

Hope this gets resolved sooner than later. It's annoying to jump to the next episode when the previous one isn't even done!

[WendyCR72]

TV Line has posted a preview of The Irrational, a new NBC series starring Mothership alumnus, Jesse L. Martin [Det. Ed Greene], and his character write up for Alec Baker, Professor of Human Behavior, sounds very Bobby Goren-esque!

Makes me curious how he will handle such a role. It premieres on September 25th at 10:00 p.m.

At least there will be some new stuff to watch this fall!

[peacheslatour]

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line has posted a preview of The Irrational, a new NBC series starring Mothership alumnus, Jesse L. Martin [Det. Ed Greene], and his character write up for Alec Baker, Professor of Human Behavior, sounds very Bobby Goren-esque!

Makes me curious how he will handle such a role. It premieres on September 25th at 10:00 p.m.

At least there will be some new stuff to watch this fall!

Yay! Can't wait.

[Xeliou66]

Beast is on on Sundance now, this is one of my favorite season 4 episodes, an intricate, bizarre plot but not overly hard to follow and it had memorable characters in Gregory, Colleen and Colleen’s witch of a mom. Colleen should’ve just moved a long way away from her mom and never spoken to the old witch again, but I guess Colleen just couldn’t get past her mom shoving her sister together with Gregory and remained obsessed with Gregory. It was a screwed up episode with how Colleen still would do anything to be with Gregory even though Gregory murdered her sister. It’s a stellar episode, one of my favorites from season 4, and as I’ve said before this is a more “normal” plot than a lot of season 4 episodes, season 4 had a lot of dark, weird and creepy stuff in it. No Exit is next, that’s one of the bleakest and most horrifying episodes in CI history. 

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Beast is on on Sundance now, this is one of my favorite season 4 episodes, an intricate, bizarre plot but not overly hard to follow and it had memorable characters in Gregory, Colleen and Colleen’s witch of a mom. Colleen should’ve just moved a long way away from her mom and never spoken to the old witch again, but I guess Colleen just couldn’t get past her mom shoving her sister together with Gregory and remained obsessed with Gregory. It was a screwed up episode with how Colleen still would do anything to be with Gregory even though Gregory murdered her sister. It’s a stellar episode, one of my favorites from season 4, and as I’ve said before this is a more “normal” plot than a lot of season 4 episodes, season 4 had a lot of dark, weird and creepy stuff in it. No Exit is next, that’s one of the bleakest and most horrifying episodes in CI history. 

And really, in the end, even before realizing he was also a murderer [as he killed Morgan], Gregory just wasn't "all that".

I wonder if part of Colleen's fixation on him was because her sister was involved with him [even as she also cheated on him!] and wanting to "one up" dead Morgan somehow.

Kind of like the equally dysfunctional sisters a season later in "Dollhouse" and the fixation on little Charlie.

[Xeliou66]

13 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

And really, in the end, even before realizing he was also a murderer [as he killed Morgan], Gregory just wasn't "all that".

I wonder if part of Colleen's fixation on him was because her sister was involved with him [even as she also cheated on him!] and wanting to "one up" dead Morgan somehow.

Kind of like the equally dysfunctional sisters a season later in "Dollhouse" and the fixation on little Charlie.

Yeah I definitely think Colleen wanted to be with Gregory specifically because he was involved with Morgan and she wanted to show that she could be with the person Morgan was with, especially since her nasty mother compared her unfavorably to Morgan constantly. Colleen was so messed up mainly due to her mom’s awfulness that she killed to try to be with Gregory, even though Gregory murdered her sister. And yeah I didn’t see what was so appealing about Gregory, although he certainly had Lisa’s parents fooled as well with them thinking he was a great guy. It was quite a twisted plot but very well done. 

[WendyCR72]

I still think it's sort of hilarious that both leads in the sitcom, Perfect Strangers, with Larry and Cousin Balki, ended up having both actors play murderers on CI. (Mark Linn-Baker [Wally from "Probability", later seen again in "Endgame"] and Bronson Pinchot [Gregory in "Beast"!].)

[WendyCR72]

Seems like former daytime actors are dropping left and right, and too soon. (One recent actor, the inspiration for Harley Quinn in the DC Comics, Arleen Sorkin, just died at 67 from MS as an example and got her start on Days of Our Lives.)

Well, another announcement has emerged: Bronwen Booth, who got her start on One Life To Live and later appeared in the Season 3 episode as Marguerite Townsend, the wealthy horse owner/rider having an affair with Dale the horse trainer, has died of ampullary cancer at 59.

Never heard of this cancer. I looked it up, and it is the opening that connects the bile and pancreatic ducts to the duodenum. It's apparently very rare.

Too young. May she rest in peace.

[WendyCR72]

For night owls, ironically, "Ill Bred", the episode featuring Bronwen Booth mentioned above, is now just starting on WE.

[WendyCR72]

If anyone here is at home and watches the little Friday mini block that Sundance has, apparently tomorrow, it begins at noon instead of 1:00 p.m. this time, so three episodes.

Just a schedule heads up if anyone wanted to know...

[Shadow Lass]

On 8/29/2023 at 12:47 AM, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line has posted a preview of The Irrational, a new NBC series starring Mothership alumnus, Jesse L. Martin [Det. Ed Greene], and his character write up for Alec Baker, Professor of Human Behavior, sounds very Bobby Goren-esque!

I came here to post about that, too! I'm very intrigued by the description!

After watching the preview, I can see Bobby sitting down with him and having a long chat!

Edited September 5, 2023 by Shadow Lass

[WendyCR72]

And WE is at it again with scheduling.

The mini late-night Saturday into Sunday, Tuesday into Wednesday, and Wednesday into Thursday blocks stay the same, but based on what I am seeing, the show will now air on WE on Mondays until around 3:00 p.m., split with 9-1-1, which then takes over.

And now, same for Thursdays. Morning until early afternoon.

Making this a bit strange is, WE and Sundance are sister channels, and now, both will be airing CI at the same time on Mondays. But hey, if an episode you don't care for is on, at least you can switch over?

The Friday mini block on Sundance, speaking of said channel, also remains intact from noon until 3:00 p.m.

[WendyCR72]

I see "Slither" (along with "Dollhouse" before and "Watch" after!) is airing in the early morning tonight.

As I said, this is actually a pretty good episode since Bernard is smart like Goren and still evil with his wealthy Manson family deal.

But the Nicole angle just drags it down, although the ending was a decent way of having her on without having her on...

[WendyCR72]

So, as I wait for work, I have "Dollhouse" on with the lawyer sister wanting the con artist sister dead and the fight over the latter's kid.

A scene brings to mind our chat about the name Declan and how it seems so rare, yet the franchise loved it. Well, I forgot that the married guy Claire the lawyer was having a relationship was named...Declan. So, a season before we meet Declan Gage, we had this other guy.

Wonder if Dick Wolf's BFF was a Declan or something?

[WendyCR72]

So, work still has me up, and although "Watch" was listed for 3:00 a.m., a Mothership episode is on instead. "Progeny", with Edward Herrmann as Drew Seeley.

A great episode, surprise airing or not!

 

[Xeliou66]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I see "Slither" (along with "Dollhouse" before and "Watch" after!) is airing in the early morning tonight.

As I said, this is actually a pretty good episode since Bernard is smart like Goren and still evil with his wealthy Manson family deal.

But the Nicole angle just drags it down, although the ending was a decent way of having her on without having her on...

Slither was a good episode up until the Nicole crap derailed it. It had a very memorable opening and an intriguing case, and then fucking Nicole had to get involved in the plot. I kind of lost interest once Nicole was brought up, and I thought the ending was epically stupid - why wasn’t everyone searching for Nicole after the murder, instead of just standing around over the corpse? And how convenient was it that once again Nicole gets away with a murder, this time in the middle of a busy courthouse. Stupid. Nicole should’ve been killed off at the end of Great Barrier, then he storyline would’ve been okay, but as it is it dragged on for way too long and was just absurd.

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So, work still has me up, and although "Watch" was listed for 3:00 a.m., a Mothership episode is on instead. "Progeny", with Edward Herrmann as Drew Seeley.

A great episode, surprise airing or not!

 

Very weird that they apparently skipped over Watch, I like that episode with Duane and Art the killer cousins, good Logan/Barek episode. It’s weird that the showed a random Mothership episode instead, but yeah Progeny is a very good one IMO.

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Stupid. Nicole should’ve been killed off at the end of Great Barrier, then he storyline would’ve been okay, but as it is it dragged on for way too long and was just absurd.

Yeah. Nicole was becoming a cartoon character. No matter what crime or stunt, she'd bounce right back up like a bad weed. I think it's why I'm glad I have the S4 DVD, so if I ever want to envision an AU world where Nicole does die in "Great Barrier", all I have to do is watch the alternate ending!

[WendyCR72]

Said it before, will say it again: No matter how many times I try to watch "Proud Flesh", none of this episode makes any real sense to me. The only part I do have straight is Anna, wife to Jonas Slaughter [Malcolm McDowell] was previously married to the professor dude.

But anything else, why the son was killed, WHO really killed him, why Jonas turned on Anna and their kid [the latter of which I was appalled by!]...all just a complete mess.

Although the scene with G/E and the dominatrix/911 operator was amusing. And Alex shooting at the very end.

Otherwise...

[peacheslatour]

Quote

But anything else, why the son was killed, WHO really killed him, why Jonas turned on Anna and their kid [the latter of which I was appalled by!]...all just a complete mess.

Yeah, that part absolutely made no sense at all to me.

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Said it before, will say it again: No matter how many times I try to watch "Proud Flesh", none of this episode makes any real sense to me. The only part I do have straight is Anna, wife to Jonas Slaughter [Malcolm McDowell] was previously married to the professor dude.

But anything else, why the son was killed, WHO really killed him, why Jonas turned on Anna and their kid [the latter of which I was appalled by!]...all just a complete mess.

Although the scene with G/E and the dominatrix/911 operator was amusing. And Alex shooting at the very end.

Otherwise...

I watched Proud Flesh before I fell asleep last night, and I feel the exact same way. Every time I watch the episode I’m left scratching my head trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. I still do not know for sure who killed Tripp, my best guess is that the businessman who was staying in the room next door killed him on the orders of Jonas, but why is a complete mystery to me, and why did they stage the scene and make it look like he was killed by someone he was going to have sex with, and why did they stage the diversion with the Asian woman who never actually was there? And Jonas seemed to care about his wife and daughter, but then he did a 180 and went on the hateful rant against them, it just didn’t make sense. And why exactly did Chance try to shoot the wife at the end? Was he just trying to commit suicide by cop so he could clear his dad with a dying confession? If so, surely there were easier ways to do it, and it was very convenient he had time to make a dying declaration before he bled out. Nothing about the episode made any sense whatsoever to me, the plot was a complete disaster, in fact it’s one of the worst episodes of the first 5 seasons of CI. 

[WendyCR72]

The Friday Sundance mini block, which started some time ago with two episodes, then expanded to three, is adding yet another episode. The listings have the show airing from noon to 4:00 p.m. tomorrow.

Just a heads up if anyone is around to watch it.

[WendyCR72]

Courtney B. Vance apparently has a movie coming out that will stream on Paramount + with Showtime and will air on regular Showtime, too.

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Courtney B. Vance apparently has a movie coming out that will stream on Paramount + with Showtime and will air on regular Showtime, too.

He’s a great actor. It’s a travesty how underused Carver was in so many episodes, he was great, but they rarely have Carver a chance to shine it seemed like.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

He’s a great actor. It’s a travesty how underused Carver was in so many episodes, he was great, but they rarely have Carver a chance to shine it seemed like.

He was and is a great actor, but even in those early seasons, maybe with the exception of "The Good Doctor" and "No Exit", the show really struggled in shoehorning in court-related scenes for Carver.

As much as it sucked to lose CBV/Carver, he was probably better off. Although I still would have loved a cameo in S10 along with Deakins, etc., and find out just what ol' Ron Carver was up to.

[Xeliou66]

11 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

He was and is a great actor, but even in those early seasons, maybe with the exception of "The Good Doctor" and "No Exit", the show really struggled in shoehorning in court-related scenes for Carver.

As much as it sucked to lose CBV/Carver, he was probably better off. Although I still would have loved a cameo in S10 along with Deakins, etc., and find out just what ol' Ron Carver was up to.

Carver had some great moments but yeah all too often he was underused, it’s a shame we had so few courtroom scenes with Carver. And I hate how we didn’t get an explanation for where Carver was, I like to think he became a judge and that’s why he left the DA’s office, he would’ve made an excellent judge. Although the franchise hasn’t always done exits well - I didn’t like Deakins’ exit story, he deserved a much better sendoff, on the Mothership I didn’t care for Green’s sendoff, and don’t even get me started on how bad a few of the SVU exits have been. So while it would’ve been nice to have some reference to where Carver went, at least they never crapped on his character.

[WendyCR72]

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Carver had some great moments but yeah all too often he was underused, it’s a shame we had so few courtroom scenes with Carver. And I hate how we didn’t get an explanation for where Carver was, I like to think he became a judge and that’s why he left the DA’s office, he would’ve made an excellent judge. Although the franchise hasn’t always done exits well - I didn’t like Deakins’ exit story, he deserved a much better sendoff, on the Mothership I didn’t care for Green’s sendoff, and don’t even get me started on how bad a few of the SVU exits have been. So while it would’ve been nice to have some reference to where Carver went, at least they never crapped on his character.

Yeah. I am glad that Carver made it out without pulling plugs or going bad or whatever. That's a huge plus!

A judgeship would be perfect for Carver.

Then again, Jamie Ross became a judge on Trial By Jury, and she still managed to be retconned out of that and crapped on by the Mothership, which still angers me.

So maybe it's best some of these characters got "non" endings. At least they're safe that way!

[Xeliou66]

53 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yeah. I am glad that Carver made it out without pulling plugs or going bad or whatever. That's a huge plus!

A judgeship would be perfect for Carver.

Then again, Jamie Ross became a judge on Trial By Jury, and she still managed to be retconned out of that and crapped on by the Mothership, which still angers me.

So maybe it's best some of these characters got "non" endings. At least they're safe that way!

It really pisses me off how the Mothership revival crapped all over Jamie, for no reason whatsoever, I can’t even say that they did it for shock value because many viewers wouldn’t even know who Jamie was since she hadn’t been on in years - I think it was just dismal writing. Why didn’t they just make her the judge presiding over the trial? 

I really have no idea why the franchise (in particular SVU) likes crapping on good characters. The characters who got the best endings were Lennie Briscoe and Adam Schiff on the Mothership, and Cragen and Munch on SVU, those great characters went out on a good note. Van Buren got a nice ending as well, since the original series finale was going to be her final episode. But the endings have been a real mixed bag on the franchise, so sometimes not really getting an ending can be for the best. Like I say, SVU has trashed numerous characters, and on CI I didn’t care for Deakins exit at all, it just made him look weak IMO.

[WendyCR72]

So the early morning marathon on WE sees the end of S5 with the dysfunctional Reid clan from "On Fire", a.k.a. stepmom and stepson and their kid.

Then "Blind Spot", which I do like if just because Bobby shows his scared human side, worrying about Alex... And I still ADORE that Alex saves HERSELF.

And then, another fucked-up family with Keith, his pervy doc dad, the teacher they both lust after, and Keith's icy mommy in the midst of Wheeler's debut in "Tru Love", with the late Anton Yelchin as Keith.

[WendyCR72]

I do find it weird how WE always flips "On Fire" and "The Good". Deakins' actual last episode is the latter, but it appears WE prefers ending the Deakins era with G/E (understandable, since they had the longer history together!) before starting S6 in its rotation.

Still, though, it's just odd how "The Good" is always shown out of order for the above to happen!

[Xeliou66]

I agree it’s very odd how they show The Good before On Fire. I like the cases in both episodes, but as I’ve said before Deakins’ exit storyline leaves a bad taste in my mouth, it just made Deakins look weak whereas I always thought of him as a fighter. It was just not a good exit, and I really hate how Goren/Eames weren’t there to say goodbye to him at the end. 
The Reid family from On Fire are right up there near the top of the most dysfunctional families on CI and CI had plenty of them. That was just a creepy family dynamic, it’s a good episode. 

[Shadow Lass]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Then "Blind Spot", which I do like if just because Bobby shows his scared human side, worrying about Alex... And I still ADORE that Alex saves HERSELF.

I read somewhere that Kathryn refused to do a story where she was kidnapped unless she was able to save herself...and this is one of my top favorites because of that.

[Xeliou66]

20 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So the early morning marathon on WE sees the end of S5 with the dysfunctional Reid clan from "On Fire", a.k.a. stepmom and stepson and their kid.

Then "Blind Spot", which I do like if just because Bobby shows his scared human side, worrying about Alex... And I still ADORE that Alex saves HERSELF.

And then, another fucked-up family with Keith, his pervy doc dad, the teacher they both lust after, and Keith's icy mommy in the midst of Wheeler's debut in "Tru Love", with the late Anton Yelchin as Keith.

 

6 hours ago, Shadow Lass said:

I read somewhere that Kathryn refused to do a story where she was kidnapped unless she was able to save herself...and this is one of my top favorites because of that.

I don’t like Blind Spot much because it’s the start of CI becoming a soap opera and the start of the destruction of Goren, not to mention asshat Ross’ first episode. But I agree that it was nice that Eames rescued herself. 

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, Shadow Lass said:

I read somewhere that Kathryn refused to do a story where she was kidnapped unless she was able to save herself...and this is one of my top favorites because of that.

I can buy this. Good for Kathryn!

Not Mariska Hargitay's fault as she follows her script, but I hate how Olivia is CONSTANTLY victimized and brutalized and it's treated like a hangnail.

After so many close calls, she should have rampant PTSD.

So I'm glad that Kathryn stood her ground as far as Alex saving herself went.

[WendyCR72]

Well, despite its age, another channel is picking up airing the show. This time, it's Charge!.

While it is mainly an over-the-air channel, my cable company, Spectrum, carries it. From the page, it appears there will be a marathon of sorts to kick it off, starting from the beginning with "One" and going until 1:00 a.m. Monday morning.

It begins airing there on Sunday, October 1st, at noon ET. So if the later seasons on WE/Sundance aren't your favorite, or if you need something non-football on Sundays, here you go!

Just click the link in the first paragraph if you want to see if you get the channel and/or want to see the schedule. If you can't get it via cable [as I do] or over the air, per the website, it can also be accessed via Roku through the Stirr app and/or Sling, so plenty of options with this channel, it seems.

[Shadow Lass]

Yes, I saw this watching CSI: NY the other night. We get it over the air.

[Shadow Lass]

This is probably a weird rant, and forgive me if I mention SVU for a bit--bear with me, please!--but something I saw bothered me and tied in with the later season "soap opera" remarks about CI.

Have watched all of Mothership and CI; had seen only SVU here and there, including the last couple of season finales and premieres. But you can't hang out on the L&O Twitter feed without them going on and on and on about Benson/Stabler. I got curious: what's this pairing got going for it that everyone has an opinion on it? At first I tried to watch SVU on the rerun channels like Ion, but discovered very quickly that if you wanted to see Benson/Stabler episodes you had to catch it mornings or very early afternoons--EVERYTHING late afternoon/evening is post-Stabler (in fact sometimes it seems like it's seasons 16-21 exclusively). So SVU was running on Hulu and I started from the beginning.

Keep in mind the few times I have SEEN Stabler, whether originally on network or in these few reruns I've found, he's angry mad dog all the time, banging people against walls and such. So what a surprise to start with first season and discover an intense but surprisingly empathic and rational Elliot, with the little glimpses we get into his home life feeling very real: he sees terrible things happen to kids and he doesn't want it to happen to his. I recall several episodes where he is so nice to the victims, whether they be minors or women. I think there's at least one episode where the kid victim bonds to him. In the first and second season Benson is the newbie who learns the ropes, along with the characters who weren't cut out for SVU, Cassidy and later Jeffries (Michelle Hurd got robbed, IMHO). (I won't talk about Munch or Fin because this isn't an SVU topic.)

So as I'm waiting for this E/O thing to start to develop, by fifth season I'm starting to get disturbed and by sixth I definitely am. Because the intense-but-empathic Elliot eventually vanishes; instead of growing as a character like Benson does, Stabler actually regresses. All his empathy has apparently been transferred to Benson--by season 5 she's already making her little speeches. Why? Did the producers decide that a "seen just about every perversion" male detective couldn't also be empathic? That instead as a male he HAD to be operating with barely suppressed rage fueled by testosterone, this all expressed by banging people up against walls, while it's the "womanly" thing to be empathic, so now Benson gets to be the sympathetic one?

So I get to late in sixth season and the story, "Rage," where Elliot is interrogating a rapist who got away the first time. It's a cat-and-mouse thing (good episode), and at one point the perp calls Elliot "a whack job." My mouth just dropped open.

Because the first thing I thought was: is THIS why we got sixth and seventh season Bobby Goren (not to mention it creeping into ninth and the whole therapy thing in tenth)???? Were they trying to turn him into another Elliot Stabler? Did the producers feel that having another empathic male--thinking of the victims Bobby was so gentle with like Robbie Bishop and Maggie Colter--wasn't realistic and so now Goren ALSO had to be another male detective who was disliked and considered a jerk by the other cops (rather than just being offbeat in his methods), with rage just simmering under the surface due to his "anger issues"? Were they trying to mess with Bobby's character like they did with Elliot's?

Maybe I'm talking through my hat, but the whole degeneration of Stabler thing just hit me like a bolt of lightning. As far as I'm concerned, it's like they knocked down Stabler to build up Benson, and if Stabler became the role model for Goren's personality twist, I resent the hell out of it.

[Xeliou66]

27 minutes ago, Shadow Lass said:

This is probably a weird rant, and forgive me if I mention SVU for a bit--bear with me, please!--but something I saw bothered me and tied in with the later season "soap opera" remarks about CI.

Have watched all of Mothership and CI; had seen only SVU here and there, including the last couple of season finales and premieres. But you can't hang out on the L&O Twitter feed without them going on and on and on about Benson/Stabler. I got curious: what's this pairing got going for it that everyone has an opinion on it? At first I tried to watch SVU on the rerun channels like Ion, but discovered very quickly that if you wanted to see Benson/Stabler episodes you had to catch it mornings or very early afternoons--EVERYTHING late afternoon/evening is post-Stabler (in fact sometimes it seems like it's seasons 16-21 exclusively). So SVU was running on Hulu and I started from the beginning.

Keep in mind the few times I have SEEN Stabler, whether originally on network or in these few reruns I've found, he's angry mad dog all the time, banging people against walls and such. So what a surprise to start with first season and discover an intense but surprisingly empathic and rational Elliot, with the little glimpses we get into his home life feeling very real: he sees terrible things happen to kids and he doesn't want it to happen to his. I recall several episodes where he is so nice to the victims, whether they be minors or women. I think there's at least one episode where the kid victim bonds to him. In the first and second season Benson is the newbie who learns the ropes, along with the characters who weren't cut out for SVU, Cassidy and later Jeffries (Michelle Hurd got robbed, IMHO). (I won't talk about Munch or Fin because this isn't an SVU topic.)

So as I'm waiting for this E/O thing to start to develop, by fifth season I'm starting to get disturbed and by sixth I definitely am. Because the intense-but-empathic Elliot eventually vanishes; instead of growing as a character like Benson does, Stabler actually regresses. All his empathy has apparently been transferred to Benson--by season 5 she's already making her little speeches. Why? Did the producers decide that a "seen just about every perversion" male detective couldn't also be empathic? That instead as a male he HAD to be operating with barely suppressed rage fueled by testosterone, this all expressed by banging people up against walls, while it's the "womanly" thing to be empathic, so now Benson gets to be the sympathetic one?

So I get to late in sixth season and the story, "Rage," where Elliot is interrogating a rapist who got away the first time. It's a cat-and-mouse thing (good episode), and at one point the perp calls Elliot "a whack job." My mouth just dropped open.

Because the first thing I thought was: is THIS why we got sixth and seventh season Bobby Goren (not to mention it creeping into ninth and the whole therapy thing in tenth)???? Were they trying to turn him into another Elliot Stabler? Did the producers feel that having another empathic male--thinking of the victims Bobby was so gentle with like Robbie Bishop and Maggie Colter--wasn't realistic and so now Goren ALSO had to be another male detective who was disliked and considered a jerk by the other cops (rather than just being offbeat in his methods), with rage just simmering under the surface due to his "anger issues"? Were they trying to mess with Bobby's character like they did with Elliot's?

Maybe I'm talking through my hat, but the whole degeneration of Stabler thing just hit me like a bolt of lightning. As far as I'm concerned, it's like they knocked down Stabler to build up Benson, and if Stabler became the role model for Goren's personality twist, I resent the hell out of it.

I’ve never connected that, Goren and Stabler are very different characters, but I’ve commented many times on how much I hate what they did to Goren in seasons 6-7, it was bizarre how out of nowhere they gave him a ton of personal baggage, took away his mojo and liveliness, and had people thinking he’s a “whack job” instead of an excellent detective. It was just a terrible decision, and I have no idea why they tried to make the show a soap opera. I agree with your rant about Stabler and how he got angrier and devolved some as the show went on, they did damage to his character as well. 
I think Stabler/Benson get talked about way too much - there are so many great characters in the franchise, why do Benson/Stabler get all of the attention? I think it’s because SVU is a sensationalist soap opera now, with the romance angle as well, while the Mothership and for the most part CI are all about the cases. What gets talked about is the sensationalist soapy stuff, and that’s what SVU specializes in. 
The Mothership revival has been a mixed bag but one positive of it is that it keeps the Mothership alive and introduces it to new fans, I feel like since SVU was the only L&O on for so long some people forgot about the others. 

[WendyCR72]

I do recall as far back as the SVU pilot, where Stabler was actually sort of warning about Benson ironically getting too involved, and there was a nod given to how detectives do not stay in SVU too long due to burnout. (More irony, considering.)

So, I choose to think TPTB decided to make Elliot that burnout.

I don't think Bobby was meant to be another Elliot. They clearly had different backgrounds and upbringings. I think Warren Leight just wanted more dramaaaaaaaa, so Bobby went from capable and quirky to the whackjob that the brass hated. Which is a big trope on many a cop show. Shrug.

And I don't think that empathy ever really left Bobby. Yes, his personal demons got in the way, but his speech in S10 to Elise Clark when talking to her as she sat in the jail cell about how he thought victims needed an advocate, not to mention in therapy, how he was angry on Vanessa Colway's behalf because of her user father, how "she does everything for him and he does nothing for her. He's a piece of..." as he trailed off, leading to talk of his own father [and his omission of Brady as he delicately tap danced around that!].

Bobby grew tired, but unlike Elliot, I still got the sense that Bobby still cared deeply and that weariness and bitterness hadn't yet bested him as it did to Stabler.

I clearly think too much about these characters and their motivations. LOL! But hey, TV board! 😋

And as for Benson/Stabler, I don't get the hype there at all and sort of resent the be-all, end-all they get. I think the Mothership and CI and Goren/Eames are just as good, if not better. Shrug. But mileage and whatnot.