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Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

WendyCR72
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peacheslatour
peacheslatour

Oh you guys, such sad news. Richard Belzer, dead at 78 Richard Belzer, who began his career as a comedian and morphed into his iconic role of police detective John Munch first in Homicide: L

Shadow Lass
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Something I made last year when with hubby who was stuck in the hospital. You may have to click to see the full pic.

catlover79
catlover79

Elizabeth "Free Javelins" Rodgers was one of the greatest unsung heroes of the entire franchise!! ☺

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

22 minutes ago, Prairie Rose said:

Was it ever revealed why CI began featuring two detective pairings, each pair biweekly, starting in Season 5? Though there were some good performers to come through, and it was always nice to see Logan, CI was always at its best with the Core Four - D'Onofrio/Erbe/Sheridan/Vance.

Because D’Onofrio was exhausted. And Sheridan and Vance didn’t renew their contracts after the fifth season.

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Prairie Rose

Prairie Rose

26 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because D’Onofrio was exhausted. And Sheridan and Vance didn’t renew their contracts after the fifth season.

I heard both exhaustion and nervous breakdown. I'm not surprised it was the former since playing Goren would probably do that to any actor!

Whoopi Goldberg's Chesley Watkins deserves serious consideration as CI's most twisted, most evil villain (sorry, Nicole Wallace). I watched "To the Bone" again recently and it still holds up. Of course Logan would seek out Olivet for help. 

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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2 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

Whoopi Goldberg's Chesley Watkins deserves serious consideration as CI's most twisted, most evil villain (sorry, Nicole Wallace). I watched "To the Bone" again recently and it still holds up. Of course Logan would seek out Olivet for help. 

I liked that, both because it gave Criminal Intent a stronger tie to the franchise and because of Olivet and Logan's long history.

Still, as I often said, the aftermath made no sense. Yeah, Logan did hit on Barek as sort of self sabotage after shooting the foster-son cop. But Barek called Logan out on it, they talked, and all was fine.

Making his reaction in Season 6 when Ross offered to get Barek back if things didn't work out with Wheeler ("Tru Love") all the more weird and inexplicable.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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2 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

I heard both exhaustion and nervous breakdown. I'm not surprised it was the former since playing Goren would probably do that to any actor!

VDO explained that time...somewhere...(I forget where I heard it!)...about a year back. Shooting would sometimes go 14/15 hours - sometimes into weekends, with memorizing 20 to 30 pages of script per night, and it just really burnt him out. He even said straight out that Season 4 was a blur.

Add in that I think I read he is dyslexic and memorizing the script probably was even more of a challenge, and I can see why he needed a break.

Bringing back Mike Logan to alternate was a clever move, as there didn't need to be a lot of time spent on introducing a new character since he was already known/established from his years on the Mothership.

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Prairie Rose

Prairie Rose

That explains a lot. It's harder to picture VDO as the (now former) father-in-law of Sean Penn!!

Back in the day, I wrote to VDO, Kathryn Erbe and Jamey Sheridan and got back autographed pictures of all three. I never got around to writing Courtney B. Vance and I don't know why. Maybe I should. I always felt those four were always an underrated team in the L&O universe.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

I stopped watching the rest of season five after “In the Wee Hours” because I HATE that plot that is unfolding for Deakins. Oh, wait. I did watch “The Healer” and I have to 🙄🙄🙄😒😒😒😒 at how they twisted University of Maryland to Maryland State University. I can understand if it was supposed to be like Hudson, which is fictional-but they use and show the SAME MASCOT! The terrapin turtle! And sorry, but Mike is a lapsed Catholic at best, based on his behavior in past cases dealing with religion.

And of course I HAD to watch “To the Bone” even though the writers or researchers FUCKED up by having a MUSLIM FAMILY, even if Indian, have a statue of a HINDU GOD-GANESH.

Watching ”Lady’s Man” now and the messed up again. I know, I know, PLOT! But it should be Connie or Mike from the DA’s office who showed up at the scene precedent was already set that there was a relationship with the Mothership’s office.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I stopped watching the rest of season five after “In the Wee Hours” because I HATE that plot that is unfolding for Deakins. Oh, wait. I did watch “The Healer” and I have to 🙄🙄🙄😒😒😒😒 at how they twisted University of Maryland to Maryland State University. I can understand if it was supposed to be like Hudson, which is fictional-but they use and show the SAME MASCOT! The terrapin turtle! And sorry, but Mike is a lapsed Catholic at best, based on his behavior in past cases dealing with religion.

And of course I HAD to watch “To the Bone” even though the writers or researchers FUCKED up by having a MUSLIM FAMILY, even if Indian, have a statue of a HINDU GOD-GANESH.

Watching ”Lady’s Man” now and the messed up again. I know, I know, PLOT! But it should be Connie or Mike from the DA’s office who showed up at the scene precedent was already set that there was a relationship with the Mothership’s office.

But then we wouldn't get to see Raul Esparza cross dress (in Alex's HOME, in which I have ranted OFTEN about TIIC making Alex look stupid, which she wasn't!), soooo...

At least there was a Jack McCoy mention in "Lady's Man", which was a huge thing for CI by then, since it seemed like the redheaded stepchild of the franchise and often off on its own island in the latter seasons...

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Xeliou66

Xeliou66

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I stopped watching the rest of season five after “In the Wee Hours” because I HATE that plot that is unfolding for Deakins. Oh, wait. I did watch “The Healer” and I have to 🙄🙄🙄😒😒😒😒 at how they twisted University of Maryland to Maryland State University. I can understand if it was supposed to be like Hudson, which is fictional-but they use and show the SAME MASCOT! The terrapin turtle! And sorry, but Mike is a lapsed Catholic at best, based on his behavior in past cases dealing with religion.

And of course I HAD to watch “To the Bone” even though the writers or researchers FUCKED up by having a MUSLIM FAMILY, even if Indian, have a statue of a HINDU GOD-GANESH.

Watching ”Lady’s Man” now and the messed up again. I know, I know, PLOT! But it should be Connie or Mike from the DA’s office who showed up at the scene precedent was already set that there was a relationship with the Mothership’s office.

I really like season 5 overall, it was the last season of “classic” CI, but yeah as I’ve said before, Deakins exit was a huge disappointment. Deakins was a fighter, no way he would give into Adair and his minions so easily. But season 5 was great overall.

Lady’s Man was just downright weird, I’m not sure what to make of it, such a strange case, but I did love the Jack McCoy reference!! One of only 2 times he was mentioned on CI.

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Prairie Rose

Prairie Rose

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

That's what he did-retire. Granted, it was a forced retirement, but he retired, and went out guns blazing. It was a crappy way to write him out, but at least they didn't kill him off.

I should have been more clear. I meant a retirement that wasn't forced, maybe a scene with cake and well wishes in the season finale - something like that. Both the actor and character deserved better.

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Xeliou66

Xeliou66

1 hour ago, Prairie Rose said:

I should have been more clear. I meant a retirement that wasn't forced, maybe a scene with cake and well wishes in the season finale - something like that. Both the actor and character deserved better.

Agreed - I wish Deakins had just chosen to retire and had gotten a nice goodbye scene with everyone, rather than the stupid Adair plot. And it pisses me off that Deakins didn’t get a satisfying goodbye with Goren/Eames, they should’ve been in the squadroom at the end when Deakins departed for the final time. 

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

(edited)

I'm a Masochist. I AM! I watched "Loyalty" and was SO PISSED. Neither Alex or Bobby owe ANYTHING to that asshole Ross. And he was their friend? Give me a fucking break.

That whole plot was so convoluted and unbelievable.

What was also interesting to me was that the fake expert/undercover FBI dude that was Indian? Hindi was DEFINITELY not his first language, or one he learned recently. He spoke it like an American reading the lines of Hindi words. It was like nails on a chalkboard to my ears.

Who wrote that piece of crap? Rick Eid? Barbara Allen? I can't remember and don't feel like looking it up.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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Xeliou66

Xeliou66

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm a Masochist. I AM! I watched "Loyalty" and was SO PISSED. Neither Alex or Bobby owe ANYTHING to that asshole Ross. And he was their friend? Give me a fucking break.

That whole plot was so convoluted and unbelievable.

What was also interesting to me was that the fake expert/undercover FBI dude that was Indian? Hindi was DEFINITELY not his first language, or one he learned recently. He spoke it like an American reading the lines of Hindi words. It was like nails on a chalkboard to my ears.

Oh dear god, Loyalty made absolutely no sense. Most convoluted plot in CI’s history, and yeah Ross wasn’t a friend to Goren/Eames, and I felt nothing when he bit the dust. And it was a terrible ending for Goren/Eames, I have no idea who thought that would be a strong ending for them, thankfully they returned for season 10 and got a strong send off.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

21 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Oh dear god, Loyalty made absolutely no sense. Most convoluted plot in CI’s history, and yeah Ross wasn’t a friend to Goren/Eames, and I felt nothing when he bit the dust. And it was a terrible ending for Goren/Eames, I have no idea who thought that would be a strong ending for them, thankfully they returned for season 10 and got a strong send off.

I know! "Respetto" opened with a "Welcome back, detective" to Alex, but there was NO explanation that Bobby had gone undercover for the inept FEDS. And it was only in the second episode that we got the dialogue about how the new Captain burned a few favors to get Bobby back. I will forever get RAGE BLACKOUT when they talk about what a problem Bobby was and "crazy" when it was the OPPOSITE. At least until that stupid episode with the introduction of his nephew and then from there on, Bobby was a "whack job" and a problem for the brass. Fuck them all.

At least in the mothership's final season, we got a decent Chief of Detectives. FINALLY.

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Prairie Rose

Prairie Rose

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm a Masochist. I AM! I watched "Loyalty" and was SO PISSED. Neither Alex or Bobby owe ANYTHING to that asshole Ross. And he was their friend? Give me a fucking break.

That whole plot was so convoluted and unbelievable.

What was also interesting to me was that the fake expert/undercover FBI dude that was Indian? Hindi was DEFINITELY not his first language, or one he learned recently. He spoke it like an American reading the lines of Hindi words. It was like nails on a chalkboard to my ears.

Who wrote that piece of crap? Rick Eid? Barbara Allen? I can't remember and don't feel like looking it up.

Walon Green.

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wknt3

wknt3

21 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

It was...USA Network and not NBC like the other L&O shows.

 

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It was moved to USA, either in season 6 or 7, due to low ratings. But the episodes would repeat on NBC. But make no mistake, this was an NBC show.


True, but after it moved USA definitely had creative input and that played a part in it becoming farther removed from the other series in the franchise. Part of the creative drift was that USA wanted one thing, NBC wanted another, and the writers and actors wanted to do something different from either of them. It's kind of amazing that anything actually made it to air and even more amazing that some of it was actually good.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

1 minute ago, wknt3 said:

 


True, but after it moved USA definitely had creative input and that played a part in it becoming farther removed from the other series in the franchise. Part of the creative drift was that USA wanted one thing, NBC wanted another, and the writers and actors wanted to do something different from either of them. It's kind of amazing that anything actually made it to air and even more amazing that some of it was actually good.

The only thing I liked about the move to USA was seeing Bobby show up in the middle or end of the promos of other shows Monk, I think? He would show up to straighten the chyron. You know, the character moments.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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22 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

It was...USA Network and not NBC like the other L&O shows.

Still, USA is owned by NBC (or both are owned under the same umbrella), and Criminal Intent had 6 out of 10 of its seasons on NBC, so there was still no excuse.

But I noticed in the credits for Season 8 that there seemed to be a lot of new names [which carried into Season 9], so that was probably another reason. (Upon Goren and Eames' Season 10 reprisal, a lot of the original writing and directing staff from the early seasons had come back, too!)

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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I see the late night/early morning block on WE has "Palimpsest" airing. Trying to decide if I want to watch the Harlequin episode come to life. All these years later, and I still cannot make heads or tails as to why Nichols had to go all the way to London to chat with some unknown lady about a lover we had never heard of before - or after the episode aired.

I wonder if the show got $$$ for every time schizophrenia was used as a part of the story. Lord knows it was used a lot on Criminal Intent.

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wknt3

wknt3

On 2/22/2022 at 8:59 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Still, USA is owned by NBC (or both are owned under the same umbrella), and Criminal Intent had 6 out of 10 of its seasons on NBC, so there was still no excuse.

But I noticed in the credits for Season 8 that there seemed to be a lot of new names [which carried into Season 9], so that was probably another reason. (Upon Goren and Eames' Season 10 reprisal, a lot of the original writing and directing staff from the early seasons had come back, too!)

It's not surprising that a lot of the old timers returned since the remit was to give the show's fans what they wanted and go back to what had made the show worked instead of trying to do everything else (USA blue sky procedural!, copy CSI but not too much and don't spend as much! be more like the other series! be less! change the cast! change it again!) For all of the stupid decisions NBCUniversal has made with the franchise this was probably the smartest one they've ever made with the possible exception of greenlighting the pilot of SVU. I'm not sure without basically admitting they had gone off course and giving the fans that last season to go out on a high note if it would have lasted as long as it has as a staple of cable schedules.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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39 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

It's not surprising that a lot of the old timers returned since the remit was to give the show's fans what they wanted and go back to what had made the show worked instead of trying to do everything else (USA blue sky procedural!, copy CSI but not too much and don't spend as much! be more like the other series! be less! change the cast! change it again!) For all of the stupid decisions NBCUniversal has made with the franchise this was probably the smartest one they've ever made with the possible exception of greenlighting the pilot of SVU. I'm not sure without basically admitting they had gone off course and giving the fans that last season to go out on a high note if it would have lasted as long as it has as a staple of cable schedules.

Yeah, I remember we discussed this. But it does go to show that the newer names clearly were not as familiar with the characters/formula as the tried-and-true names were. And it was for the good of the show that those that knew Goren and Eames, their peccadilloes and styles, came back to usher them off.

Not to say new blood is bad. It's not. Chris Brancato as an example. But the new writers seemed more into the plot than character, at least to me.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I just watched The Taking of Pelham 123 remake, 1998. If you told me you could make me hate VDO, I would not have believed you. Yet, here we are.

Yeah, VDO can play baddies and crazies with the best of them. He could also play sympathetic (Bobby, Bill in Mystic Pizza,, Davey in the episode "Suspicion of Innocence" on the original version of the TV series The Equalizer), too.

Actually, he did both on The Equalizer. He played another villain in S2 in "Counterfire", then played mentally-disabled Davey in "Suspicion of Innocence" a season later.

If you go to NBC.com, you can watch the original '80s version of The Equalizer there.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

3 hours ago, CraftyHazel said:

Has everyone seen this?  It gives me hope!  Vincent D’Onofrio is not done with Bobby Goren yet…

Unless René Balcer is involved, nope! from me! He’d also have to lose some weight-unless he’s no longer as big as Kingpin?

Or if they’ll allow him to cameo on the mothership? HIM, I’d like to see.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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11 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

I honestly don't see Bobby Goren as still being an active detective. He'd be pretty close to, if not past, NYPD mandatory retirement age. Unless he was working for the DA's office as an investigator, I just don't know how they could pull it off.

This franchise plays fast and loose. Lennie was LONG past the mandatory age when he left the series, too. While I would LOVE to see Bobby (and Alex! Sue me, I want both!) again, I'm wary of the damage TPTB can inflict.

See Jamie Ross.

But if it can be done and done well? I'm all for this!

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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14 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Unless René Balcer is involved, nope! from me! He’d also have to lose some weight-unless he’s no longer as big as Kingpin?

Or if they’ll allow him to cameo on the mothership? HIM, I’d like to see.

As I said, I'm not even sure René Balcer is US-based anymore. But yeah, if it is between Balcer or Leight - assuming there is any true interest in a revival or cameo of some sort - I'd pick Balcer, hands down.

Alas, I don't see that happening.

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Prairie Rose

Prairie Rose

(edited)

Kathryn Erbe/Alex Eames did guest on SVU a couple of times, which was great. Her episodes mainly dealt with the case, so the character wasn't ruined. Another reason I don't see Bobby still with the force is because of the problems he had with the hierarchy. I imagine he put in the rest of his time, earned his pension and now works as either an investigator to the DA's office or a profiler.

Edited by Prairie Rose
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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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2 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

Kathryn Erbe/Alex Eames did guest on SVU a couple of times, which was great. Her episodes mainly dealt with the case, so the character wasn't ruined. Another reason I don't see Bobby still with the force is because of the problems he had with the hierarchy. I imagine he put in the rest of his time, earned his pension and now works as either an investigator to the DA's office or a profiler.

I have a white-hot hatred for Alex's visits to SVU. Bobby fought to keep his job. Outlined in the final therapy session when he asked Dr. Paula Gyson if she was going to take his job away. He was happy there.

No way would he run off. And to have Warren Leight spit on CI's great ending just so Olivia and Alex could "bond" over their partners leaving them?

NO. Fucking hell no. In my world, those episodes do not exist. The CI ending still stands, not ruined by Warren Leight, in my head. Yay!

(Told you I hated it. LOL!)

So I still think Bobby would be connected to law enforcement in some way. I'm willing to handwave since the franchise does so often!

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

She’s only the second. They turned Paul into Pod!Paul! when he returned as a defense attorney. And isn’t René in charge of one of the Chicago shows?  He can still write from Canada!!!!

I have no idea if René is in charge of the Chicago franchise since I find those shows torture to watch, so I don't. LOL! But if he is? Good. He can do any CI revival. (Like I have the power to make it so!)

As for Paul, he did seem a lot...angrier...as a defense attorney. The change never felt natural or made any sort of sense to me.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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On 2/22/2022 at 12:04 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know! "Respetto" opened with a "Welcome back, detective" to Alex

Well, I have the screener version (thanks, eBay!), of "The Consoler", which was to be the premiere before Charlie Sheen lost his shit and the series decided to capitalize upon it with Jay Mohr and made "Rispetto" the new premiere, and there was a big to do with the bunches of cops/personnel in Teresa Esperna's apartment (longer than what made the episode since it was re-edited) welcoming both Goren and Eames back and smiling at them.

Then the cop who Bobby had asked about who moved Teresa's body, in the original version as Bobby was looking at the body, also welcomed Bobby back before he exited. Seemed real sincere/glad, too.

Kind of wish the original had aired, especially with Alex's line of "he's back!" following Bobby getting Johnny's confession (as she and Captain Hannah observed behind the two-way mirror) being cut...

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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With all of the talk of Carey Lowell in the Mothership forum, I was surprised to read she and Richard Gere have been divorced for so long (no idea they had even split!), but in reading something on it, I also had no idea she was married twice before...

...and hubby #2 - right before Richard Gere - was none other than Griffin Dunne! He had his most memorable appearance (IMO!) early on when Bobby belittled his character's (scumbag Henry Talbot!) small shoe size (and...other areas!) in "Jones" in S1! Had no idea he was married to her at all.

(He also appeared a couple more times on this show, forget the final episode, but he also appeared in "Country Crossover" in S6 with Logan/Wheeler!)

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

(edited)
22 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

With all of the talk of Carey Lowell in the Mothership forum, I was surprised to read she and Richard Gere have been divorced for so long (no idea they had even split!), but in reading something on it, I also had no idea she was married twice before...

...and hubby #2 - right before Richard Gere - was none other than Griffin Dunne! He had his most memorable appearance (IMO!) early on when Bobby belittled his character's (scumbag Henry Talbot!) small shoe size (and...other areas!) in "Jones" in S1! Had no idea he was married to her at all.

(He also appeared a couple more times on this show, forget the final episode, but he also appeared in "Country Crossover" in S6 with Logan/Wheeler!)

Yeah, I seem to remember discussing how she and Gere were no longer married back when the mothership had been changed into a single forum. I also recall is talking about how she used to be married to Griffin Dunne. Or maybe it was over at TWoP.

As for Vincent D’Onofrio, I first saw him in …I think it was either as the marine who had been hazed to the point he went crazy in Full Metal Jacket, or a guest star on Homicide: Life on the Streets as someone who had been pushed at the train station and was trapped between two cars. Ironically, the guy who pushed him was none other than Bruce MacVittie, who would show up multiple times on this show!

And then on Men in Black. This show was the first time I’d seen him as a complete Good Guy/Protagonist.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah, I seem to remember discussing how she and Gere were no longer married back when the mothership had been changed into a single forum. I also recall is talking about how she used to be married to Griffin Dunne. Or maybe it was over at TWoP.

As for Vincent D’Onofrio, I first saw him in …I think it was either as the marine who had been hazed to the point he went crazy in Full Metal Jacket, or a guest star on Homicide: Life on the Streets as someone who had been pushed at the train station and was trapped between two cars. Ironically, the guy who pushed him was none other than Bruce MacVittie, who would show up multiple times on this show!

And then on Men in Black. This show was the first time I’d seen him as a complete Good Guy/Protagonist.

He was both hilarious and scary in Men In Black. But then, it could not have been easy for a giant bug to move the Edgar suit! (And, of course, Rip Torn was in that movie, too, who would appear as the father/grandfather from hell (to at least his son Ted and his kid) in "Bedfellows" in Season 6!)

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wknt3

wknt3

On 2/25/2022 at 8:11 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Or if they’ll allow him to cameo on the mothership? HIM, I’d like to see.

 

On 2/25/2022 at 10:44 PM, WendyCR72 said:

As I said, I'm not even sure René Balcer is US-based anymore. But yeah, if it is between Balcer or Leight - assuming there is any true interest in a revival or cameo of some sort - I'd pick Balcer, hands down.

Alas, I don't see that happening.


Yeah I don't see it either unless the series is doing amazing numbers on Peacock and the Organized Crime revamp tanks. Speaking of which, instead of a mothership cameo even better would be if he was to visit OCCB as a profiler/interrogation expert and get a full confession and mental breakdown from supervillain Richard Wheatley in the opener and walk out telling them not to call unless they had a real problem before the episode moved on to the actual COTW. I would watch the hell out of that. Heck get Charlie Cox to play Wheatley's lawyer and I would pay to see it!

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Prairie Rose

Prairie Rose

17 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

...and hubby #2 - right before Richard Gere - was none other than Griffin Dunne! He had his most memorable appearance (IMO!) early on when Bobby belittled his character's (scumbag Henry Talbot!) small shoe size (and...other areas!) in "Jones" in S1! 

Priceless, classic scene. 😂

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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8 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Yeah I don't see it either unless the series is doing amazing numbers on Peacock and the Organized Crime revamp tanks. Speaking of which, instead of a mothership cameo even better would be if he was to visit OCCB as a profiler/interrogation expert and get a full confession and mental breakdown from supervillain Richard Wheatley in the opener and walk out telling them not to call unless they had a real problem before the episode moved on to the actual COTW.

Damn it. Now I want this!

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

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With so many guest stars having worked with VDO before Criminal Intent making appearances, I had forgotten another guest star with an old connection to Kathryn Erbe!

The late Lynn Redgrave had appeared in the episode, "Folie A Deux" as Emily Huntford, the great-aunt to little Emma, who had died.

But apparently, she had worked with Kathryn Erbe in an old CBS sitcom, Chicken Soup! Here is a video with both ladies right in the thumbnail!

 

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