Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[Xeliou66]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

He was certainly unique! But I freely admit to being a Goren (and Eames!) fangirl.

Goren’s the most unique detective in the L&O franchise IMO (Munch is the other contender for that title) and yeah he’s a great character. The L&O franchise has had plenty of great detectives but Goren’s one of my very favorites as well.

[WendyCR72]

I do think it interesting that VDO was seemingly given free rein to create Bobby Goren and his mannerisms. He discusses it here in a video from 2011, the same year the show ended:

 

[WendyCR72]

"Silver Lining" just ended. As we have discussed, that one was actually a "lighter" episode in a dark season, and I sort of found it interesting that the guy was willing to do jail time, and even he was appalled that Sheila killed someone.

A criminal with a moral code. Huh.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

"Silver Lining" just ended. As we have discussed, that one was actually a "lighter" episode in a dark season, and I sort of found it interesting that the guy was willing to do jail time, and even he was appalled that Sheila killed someone.

A criminal with a moral code. Huh.

In The Gift, the perp was very concerned that he be incarerated near his "psychic" lady love. True love was his redeeming feature.

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

In The Gift, the perp was very concerned that he be incarerated near his "psychic" lady love. True love was his redeeming feature.

Yeah, but his girlfriend was an unwitting accomplice, not a victim.

In "Silver Lining", Wes seemed horrified that Sheila would kill someone just to keep him out of prison.

Hope his mom ended up raising the kid. Wes and Sheila would warp him or her badly.

[peacheslatour]

8 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yeah, but his girlfriend was an unwitting accomplice, not a victim.

In "Silver Lining", Wes seemed horrified that Sheila would kill someone just to keep him out of prison.

Hope his mom ended up raising the kid. Wes and Sheila would warp him or her badly.

Yeah, that lady wouldn't screw the kid up at all. /s

"Hope is for suckers"

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Yeah, that lady wouldn't screw the kid up at all. /s

"Hope is for suckers"

Nah, she was just a realist. Wes probably promised to change a billion times...

[peacheslatour]

14 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Nah, she was just a realist. Wes probably promised to change a billion times...

I get that but look at how her son turned out. The kid would be better off in foster care.

[Shadow Lass]

On 12/21/2022 at 8:17 PM, WendyCR72 said:

No, not really. I'd rather be Alex Eames or Anita Van Buren any day of the damned week.

Something I made last year when with hubby who was stuck in the hospital. You may have to click to see the full pic.

[WendyCR72]

Good one, @Shadow Lass!

And I agree. 😎

As for your post, @peacheslatour, I see your point. But sometimes, kids can have loving parents, be raised right, and the kids still turn out to be assholes or worse. I guess it's all a crap shoot, right?

So Wes and Sheila's spawn may be doomed altogether!

[TakomaSnark]

I have a lot of problems with the character Raúl Esparza plays in 'Lady's Man' but I'd be lying if I said I didn't laugh out loud every time I watch his character do the fake-out apartment exit with Goren only to 180 and close the door in Goren's face 😂

[peacheslatour]

9 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

I have a lot of problems with the character Raúl Esparza plays in 'Lady's Man' but I'd be lying if I said I didn't laugh out loud every time I watch his character do the fake-out apartment exit with Goren only to 180 and close the door in Goren's face 😂

And then he does that weird thing with his face at the end, after they told him they knew about his cross dressing. And when Goren hands the cuffs to Eames? Everything.

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

And then he does that weird thing with his face at the end, after they told him they knew about his cross dressing. And when Goren hands the cuffs to Eames? Everything.

Yeah, I loved when Goren shoved Mulrooney and gave Eames the handcuffs. He knew she had to regain her confidence a bit, and I like how subtly it was done.

16 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

I have a lot of problems with the character Raúl Esparza plays in 'Lady's Man' but I'd be lying if I said I didn't laugh out loud every time I watch his character do the fake-out apartment exit with Goren only to 180 and close the door in Goren's face 😂

I like the episode since it gives Alex the spotlight for once. (I LOVE Goren, but it was nice to see Alex get her due, too!)

But I still cannot fathom how Alex NEVER knew Kevin Mulrooney was in her home, stealing her blouse. And she NEVER smelled strange perfume in the air or noticed anything out of place - or locked her doors?!

Alex was a SMART detective. I don't buy she would have ever been that clueless.

[TakomaSnark]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yeah, I loved when Goren shoved Mulrooney and gave Eames the handcuffs. He knew she had to regain her confidence a bit, and I like how subtly it was done.

I like the episode since it gives Alex the spotlight for once. (I LOVE Goren, but it was nice to see Alex get her due, too!)

But I still cannot fathom how Alex NEVER knew Kevin Mulrooney was in her home, stealing her blouse. And she NEVER smelled strange perfume in the air or noticed anything out of place - or locked her doors?!

Alex was a SMART detective. I don't buy she would have ever been that clueless.

Totally agree. Plus, and I can never get over this, but the focus on the red nails drives me crazy. They clearly weren't Lee Press-Ons, so there was no way to take them on and off easily to move between personas. (The Americans drove me crazy for similiar reasons with regard to slipping in and out of full on disguises.)

 

[WendyCR72]

13 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

Totally agree. Plus, and I can never get over this, but the focus on the red nails drives me crazy. They clearly weren't Lee Press-Ons, so there was no way to take them on and off easily to move between personas. (The Americans drove me crazy for similiar reasons with regard to slipping in and out of full on disguises.)

 

Yeah, and the hand movement of clutching the blinds (in Alex's home) and the fence unit (the room where G/E exposed Mulrooney).

And maybe it's me, but I sincerely doubt that Mulrooney/Esparza could sound like a woman, which Boz's friend, the one he drugged and woke at a motel room, referred to "her" asking him to party.

So, a lot of holes, but even so, it was a pretty good episode.

[WendyCR72]

And as Mr. EGG CUP just ended, so begins Colleen and her awful mama.

Really am glad the long marathons are back on WE.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

And as Mr. EGG CUP just ended, so begins Colleen and her awful mama.

Really am glad the long marathons are back on WE.

I’m watching as well on WE today, some great episodes - I love The Good Child and Beast.  
Such a twisted, diabolical plot in The Good Child, with Trevor and Maureen killing the adoptive parents and then planning to kill Rachel, I love the final confrontation where they expose their plot and Rachel realizes they planned to kill her, and Trevor screaming “EGG CUP” as he’s led away is one of the funniest moments on CI, makes me laugh every time.    
Beast also has an excellent and twisted plot - I really like the investigation and getting to the bottom of it. Colleen was really screwed up given how she still wanted Gregory despite knowing Gregory killed her sister and was willing to go as far as killing Gregory’s wife out of jealousy and setting up the whole scheme, but it’s no surprised she was messed up given how awful her mother was, only caring about her other daughter. Some really good twists in that plot. And it happens to be one of the more “normal” episodes of the season, showing just how dark and weird season 4 was. Great season though, maybe CI’s best. 

[Shadow Lass]

I keep watching all these episodes with the horrible parents--no wonder Colleen was so twisted with that mother of hers!--and wonder if Rene Balcer just had a really bad childhood...

[WendyCR72]

15 minutes ago, Shadow Lass said:

I keep watching all these episodes with the horrible parents--no wonder Colleen was so twisted with that mother of hers!--and wonder if Rene Balcer just had a really bad childhood...

I REALLY wish - speaking of Rene Balcer - that the S10 DVD had the original ending as bonus material. I know I read Balcer [as this show, despite still having Dick Wolf's name on it, was his baby based on things I read!] had a brief cameo scene with the crowd. (The original ending was apparently "busier", on a crowded street. Guess it was changed to just G/E and the moment outside the shrink brownstone.)

Some videos still seem to have snippets of it out there. So I can only guess maybe some commercials aired that footage before the switch. I know I recall Goren exiting some big NYC building instead of the brownstone. Alex was still leaning against the SUV, though...

[peacheslatour]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

And as Mr. EGG CUP just ended, so begins Colleen and her awful mama.

Really am glad the long marathons are back on WE.

OMG, I completely forgot to watch yesterday. Paramount and Sundance had Mothership all day and USA had SVU and Ovation had Midsomer Murders. So many to choose from, I was back and forth all day.

[Xeliou66]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:16 PM, Shadow Lass said:

I keep watching all these episodes with the horrible parents--no wonder Colleen was so twisted with that mother of hers!--and wonder if Rene Balcer just had a really bad childhood...

Dysfunctional families and awful parents was something CI did really well - there are too many examples to list of them on this show. And yeah every time I watch Beast I think about how Colleen would’ve been more sympathetic if she had just whacked dear old mom instead of killing Gregory’s wife. It was not surprising that Colleen was messed up due to the witch of a mom, she was so focused on Gregory and still wanted him even knowing he killed her sister that she was willing to go to great lengths to kill his wife years later. What a twisted episode. 

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Dysfunctional families and awful parents was something CI did really well - there are too many examples to list of them on this show. And yeah every time I watch Beast I think about how Colleen would’ve been more sympathetic if she had just whacked dear old mom instead of killing Gregory’s wife. It was not surprising that Colleen was messed up due to the witch of a mom, she was so focused on Gregory and still wanted him even knowing he killed her sister that she was willing to go to great lengths to kill his wife years later. What a twisted episode. 

In Magnificat, Paul Whitlock had to be one of the most heinous characters I've ever seen. He knew his wife wanted to kill herself and the kids and he facilitated it. And then to force her to sleep in the kids room. It's almost too much to contemplate.

[Xeliou66]

4 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

In Magnificat, Paul Whitlock had to be one of the most heinous characters I've ever seen. He knew his wife wanted to kill herself and the kids and he facilitated it. And then to force her to sleep in the kids room. It's almost too much to contemplate.

Oh yeah that guy was just awful. As I’ve said before, I vehemently disagreed with Carver not prosecuting him, I thought they had a solid case against him for manslaughter, he knew his wife unstable and wanted to kill their kids and did nothing. Carver not prosecuting him was cowardly IMO.

Other parents that were not murderers but were beyond awful were those 2 loony toons from Shrink Wrapped, holy fuck they were nuts. I hope they lost their licenses at least after what happened. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Oh yeah that guy was just awful. As I’ve said before, I vehemently disagreed with Carver not prosecuting him, I thought they had a solid case against him for manslaughter, he knew his wife unstable and wanted to kill their kids and did nothing. Carver not prosecuting him was cowardly IMO.

I will never forget Goren's impassioned  "Mr. Carver! PLEASE!"

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Dysfunctional families and awful parents was something CI did really well - there are too many examples to list of them on this show. And yeah every time I watch Beast I think about how Colleen would’ve been more sympathetic if she had just whacked dear old mom instead of killing Gregory’s wife. It was not surprising that Colleen was messed up due to the witch of a mom, she was so focused on Gregory and still wanted him even knowing he killed her sister that she was willing to go to great lengths to kill his wife years later. What a twisted episode. 

As I said, Colleen should have just left home the minute she turned 18 and had zero contact with her horrible mother.

Maybe she would have had a chance at a more stable/normal life then.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

As I said, Colleen should have just left home the minute she turned 18 and had zero contact with her horrible mother.

Maybe she would have had a chance at a more stable/normal life then.

Agreed, she should’ve, unfortunately it’s hard to get away from rotten family a lot of the time, and I think a lot of the damage had probably already been done with her mother only loving her “beautiful” sister.  
A parent favoring one child over another was something we saw a few times on the show - of course the awful father/grandfather from Bedfellows who only loved one son/grandson, and also the sorry parents in Saving Face who forced their daughter to do everything they thought their deceased son would’ve done and never let her live her own life. 

[TakomaSnark]

Was watching 'Revolution' earlier today. I'm not a fan of the Jeff Goldblum era but this episode really makes it on the back of Stephen Lang. Fantastic actor who is also in one of my favorite SVU's, 'Escape.' 

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Was watching 'Revolution' earlier today. I'm not a fan of the Jeff Goldblum era but this episode really makes it on the back of Stephen Lang. Fantastic actor who is also in one of my favorite SVU's, 'Escape.' 

Revolution is a good episode, and I like the Goldblum/Nichols era more than most, certainly not as good as seasons 1-5 of CI but not terrible, I liked seeing Nichols paired with Eames. I think if Nichols had had a partner with a personality the episodes would’ve been better - Wheeler and Stevens were damn near lifeless.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

Was watching 'Revolution' earlier today. I'm not a fan of the Jeff Goldblum era but this episode really makes it on the back of Stephen Lang. Fantastic actor who is also in one of my favorite SVU's, 'Escape.' 

He REALLY fucked up his kidnapped "daughter", though. So much that she blamed HER REAL PARENTS for their own murders.

So in a way, having the guy see the girl he groomed as some revolutionary take her own life because of his teachings seemed like some very harsh karma.

[TakomaSnark]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

He REALLY fucked up his kidnapped "daughter", though. So much that she blamed HER REAL PARENTS for their own murders.

So in a way, having the guy see the girl he groomed as some revolutionary take her own life because of his teachings seemed like some very harsh karma.

Oh definitely. As unsympathetic as I found father and daughter, that ending was heartbreaking.

[WendyCR72]

Actor Julian Sands, who played Phillip Reinhardt in "Dramma Giocoso" in Season 5, is missing. Apparently, he was last seen hiking a mountain in North Hollywood per TMZ.

Search efforts are being hampered by more ice and snowfall.

Hope everything turns out okay, but the news does not sound promising.

[Xeliou66]

A good CI marathon is on WE today - just watched False Hearted Judges, this is a good episode and it has my favorite Carver scene, where he stands up to judge Freeman who wanted to suspend habeas corpus, saying “I would love to keep Mr Wilkes locked up, but I love the constitution more” - that was a great moment for Carver, he was such a good character who was underused so often. Really good case and investigation into the crimes.   
Watching Grow now, and while I love the Goren/Logan interaction, I hate fucking Nicole, the plot was twisted and intriguing but the ridiculousness of the stupid Nicole plot ruined it. 

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

A good CI marathon is on WE today - just watched False Hearted Judges, this is a good episode and it has my favorite Carver scene, where he stands up to judge Freeman who wanted to suspend habeas corpus, saying “I would love to keep Mr Wilkes locked up, but I love the constitution more” - that was a great moment for Carver, he was such a good character who was underused so often. Really good case and investigation into the crimes.   
Watching Grow now, and while I love the Goren/Logan interaction, I hate fucking Nicole, the plot was twisted and intriguing but the ridiculousness of the stupid Nicole plot ruined it. 

I'm watching False Hearted Judges right now and I saw she was going to be in the next one. SVU, here I come. Or OG is on Paramount now and at 1:00 Sundance. My cup runneth over.

[WendyCR72]

And "In The Wee Small Hours" will be on from 5 to 7 p.m. ("Saving Face" will be the last episode at 7 - the one with Christine, the Frederick replacement!) So a series of strong episodes!

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I'm watching False Hearted Judges right now and I saw she was going to be in the next one. SVU, here I come. Or OG is on Paramount now and at 1:00 Sundance. My cup runneth over.

Yeah I know, it’s a great day for L&O fans - Mothership on Sundance, SVU on USA and CI on WE!! I’m going to stick with CI until it goes off on WE and then I’ll switch to the Mothership. 
False Hearted Judges is a really good episode, I don’t recall it being talked about much but it’s really strong and had some great scenes of Goren/Eames investigating and as I said before the scene where Carver stands up to the judge is my favorite Carver scene. 
Watching Unchained now, and the scumbag dirty cop Virgini is right up there with among the worst parents ever, what a piece of shit. 
I’m looking forward to In The Wee Small Hours, my favorite CI episode. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Xeliou66

[peacheslatour]

I'm almost to the end of The Wee Small Hours now and I forgot that there is a great scene between Carver and Deakins.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

I'm almost to the end of The Wee Small Hours now and I forgot that there is a great scene between Carver and Deakins.

Which specific scene are you referring to? They shared a lot of scenes in that episode, both got a heavy role, another reason why I love the episode. 

[WendyCR72]

59 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Which specific scene are you referring to? They shared a lot of scenes in that episode, both got a heavy role, another reason why I love the episode. 

Well, the episode(s) were/was originally a 2-hour single sweeps episode, so it made sense that Carver/Deakins got some more meat to their scenes, which was good.

I did enjoy the interplay between Arthur Branch and Ron Carver, too. Especially the Madame LaFarge chat, as I had mentioned before.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, the episode(s) were/was originally a 2-hour single sweeps episode, so it made sense that Carver/Deakins got some more meat to their scenes, which was good.

I did enjoy the interplay between Arthur Branch and Ron Carver, too. Especially the Madame LaFarge chat, as I had mentioned before.

Yeah I loved seeing Branch crossover and interact with Carver, and I loved when he tore up the original arrest warrant and pulled out a new one with his signature on it - “it’s not enough to do good, you got to be seen doing good”. And his later scene with Carver was good as well.   
There’s really a lot to love about that episode, really strong case and detective work, plus courtroom scenes, plus good interaction between the various characters. Really enjoyed the Goren/Logan interaction, Eames’ “there they go, oceans two” line was awesome. 

[WendyCR72]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:58 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Eames’ “there they go, oceans two” line was awesome. 

And as I said, I liked when Barek looked at her after that line, like it was a bit weird. Seems Bobby rubbed off on Alex. LOL!

And I noticed, as Logan and Goren were leaving before that line, how Bobby gave Alex a little wave. So dorky but cute.

[Xeliou66]

22 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

And as I said, I liked whe Barek looked at her after that line, like it was a bit weird. Seems Bobby rubbed off on Alex. LOL!

And I noticed, as Logan and Goren were leaving before that line, how Bobby gave Alex a little wave. So dorky but cute.

I also liked Goren/Logan provoking Ethan into assaulting Logan when they searched his house. It was really nice seeing the 2 pairs of detectives interact. Such a great episode all around. 

[WendyCR72]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I also liked Goren/Logan provoking Ethan into assaulting Logan when they searched his house. It was really nice seeing the 2 pairs of detectives interact. Such a great episode all around. 

And I liked the sing-songy kind of voice Bobby used when he sort of gleefully said, "Ethan, we have to search your room!" when he encountered Ethan on the stairs.

[TakomaSnark]

Watched 'Acts of Contrition' today and it's a shame Susan Misner wasn't recognized for a Guest Emmy nomination. The interplay between her character with Goren, Eames and Carver at the end actually makes me tear up.

[WendyCR72]

30 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Watched 'Acts of Contrition' today and it's a shame Susan Misner wasn't recognized for a Guest Emmy nomination. The interplay between her character with Goren, Eames and Carver at the end actually makes me tear up.

Hard to believe she is the same actress to play Becky the stripper/hooker in the Season 1 episode, "Smothered", not to mention the doomed wife of religious nut Paul Davildes in the Season 8 episode, "Family Values".

[TakomaSnark]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

Hard to believe she is the same actress to play Becky the stripper/hooker in the Season 1 episode, "Smothered", not to mention the doomed wife of religious nut Paul Davildes in the Season 8 episode, "Family Values".

Wow,  both episodes where her characters suffer terrible deaths. I'm glad they gave her this ep to showcase how much she was capable above beyond dying - in fact, Sister Olivia's embrace of life and responsibility for her crime and cruelty as Angie Delmarco. 

Courtney B. Vance too really brought it to that final scene. So much unspoken awareness of how white women were long part of the racist violence against African Americans.

[WendyCR72]

44 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Wow,  both episodes where her characters suffer terrible deaths. I'm glad they gave her this ep to showcase how much she was capable above beyond dying - in fact, Sister Olivia's embrace of life and responsibility for her crime and cruelty as Angie Delmarco. 

Courtney B. Vance too really brought it to that final scene. So much unspoken awareness of how white women were long part of the racist violence against African Americans.

Becky didn't die. She was beat up by one of her fellow perps [Dale's stepfather] and was the one to convince Lois - the one that did die - to "go out on the town" with her to make some money for Lois' honeymoon with fellow junkie Dale Van Acker. She got Lois to that hotel room, where Lois was ambushed [on orders of Dale's mother]. Becky likely did end up in prison. I know G/E interrogated her, and I recall Bobby commenting on her black eye.

But yeah, Mrs. Davildes in S8 had a bad end, being shot in the head while in bed with Paul. Yikes.

[TakomaSnark]

28 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Becky didn't die. She was beat up by one of her fellow perps [Dale's stepfather] and was the one to convince Lois - the one that did die - to "go out on the town" with her to make some money for Lois' honeymoon with fellow junkie Dale Van Acker. She got Lois to that hotel room, where Lois was ambushed [on orders of Dale's mother]. Becky likely did end up in prison. I know G/E interrogated her, and I recall Bobby commenting on her black eye.

But yeah, Mrs. Davildes in S8 had a bad end, being shot in the head while in bed with Paul. Yikes.

Oh my bad, I was confusing Becky with Lois.

[WendyCR72]

Just now, TakomaSnark said:

Oh my bad, I was confusing Becky with Lois.

Thought as much, no big deal! Still, at least Becky, like Sister Olivia, remained alive, if not in a great place.

[TakomaSnark]

4 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Thought as much, no big deal! Still, at least Becky, like Sister Olivia, remained alive, if not in a great place.

Poor Lois, that scene was brutal. 

And another knockout performance in that one by Kathleen Chalfant, who has to be one of the 'repeat offender' MVPs in the Wolfiverse.

[WendyCR72]

7 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

And another knockout performance in that one by Kathleen Chalfant, who has to be one of the 'repeat offender' MVPs in the Wolfiverse.

Yes!

Phyllis Van Acker almost seemed like a sort of modern Lady MacBeth. Sad to know that - like almost all the episodes - this episode was also based on a true story.