Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[GHScorpiosRule]

33 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Watching Family Values on WE, and I think this has to be one of the dullest episodes in L&O history, a bland case with a generic bunch of characters, for some reason this episode has never been able to hold my interest whatsoever. I find season 5 overall to be very bland, there are a lot of dull episodes IMO, for some reason it just doesn’t seem to be as strong as a lot of other seasons.

That one just grosses me out when Maggie is describing having sex with her stepfather.

[WendyCR72]

"Progeny" is ending. I love how McCoy traps Seeley on the stand about not being able to pull the trigger on abortion doctors himself. On another note, now "Rage" is beginning. Always a trip to see Courtney B. Vance as the criminal instead of ADA as he was with Ron Carver on CI.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

"Progeny" is ending. I love how McCoy traps Seeley on the stand about not being able to pull the trigger on abortion doctors himself. On another note, now "Rage" is beginning. Always a trip to see Courtney B. Vance as the criminal instead of ADA as he was with Ron Carver on CI.

"Rage" wasn't Vance's first appearance, though. He played the Mayor's assistant in "By Hooker, By Crook" in the first season.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So by my calculations, SunDance should start airing the dreaded law, but good order season 17 next week? Dreaded for the atrocious casting of Govich as Cassady, but the rejuvenation of Assistant ADA Rubirosa with the casting of De La Garza. I know I'll be fast fowarding the law portions, except for when VanBuren is ripping Cassady a new one.

I'm still confuzzled as to why Sundance repeats the episodes on Sundays? Like, they'll air the last half of season 13/first half of 14 on Thursday and Friday, or is it Wednesday and Friday? And then air the repeats of the first half of 13 on Sunday! GAH!

And since I don't get WE, I can't speak in specifics and details, though I'm irked that Escape didn't record the remaining of season five, so I could rail at the husband in "Precious" for burying the baby his loonytoons wife killed, and then got pregnant again. I can't recall--was the baby she killed in the opening scene, her second child she'd killed? And then I'm gonna miss the reunion of Waterston and Regina Taylor in "Virtue" even if the only scenes they had was in...court? I was hoping for a one on one scene! And "Scoundrels" which had Jack repeating, sarcastically to Claire at the end "Why, Heavens to Betsy!" that never fails to make me 🤣 And of course "Rage." And "Wannabe" if only to see Jack flip(?) one of the brats' hat off, by saying that "Detective Logan is a Mick" when said brat sneered it at Jack. Or something. It was all in the delivery, because I hate that episode so, so much. And of course, "Bad Faith" which was such a good episode for Mike.

And I think I've figured out some of Sundance's stupid reasoning/thinking of not bleeping the N-word, or any of the other derogatory words: If the episode is about White Supremacists, or deals with the Holocaust, they won't bleep the words. Like last week, season 14's "Evil Breeds" where the victim was a Holocaust Survivor and had been murdered by the guard she identified, and who was going to be sent back to stand for his war crimes; and that the "businessman" who paid for his legal fees was a White Supremacist. During cross-examination of his partner, Jack said the N-word without it being bleeped. But if it's in the context of racism, such as in "Good Girl" the network will bleep it.

Edited March 19, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Ailianna]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And since I don't get WE, I can't speak in specifics and details, though I'm irked that Escape didn't record the remaining of season five, so I could rail at the husband in "Precious" for burying the baby his loonytoons wife killed, and then got pregnant again. I can't recall--was the baby she killed in the opening scene, her second child she'd killed?

Actually it was the third child she had killed.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Actually it was the third child she had killed.

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure. And still the husband didn't think to do anything about getting her help before it got to that point?

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So by my calculations, SunDance should start airing the dreaded law, but good order season 17 next week? Dreaded for the atrocious casting of Govich as Cassady, but the rejuvenation of Assistant ADA Rubirosa with the casting of De La Garza. I know I'll be fast fowarding the law portions, except for when VanBuren is ripping Cassady a new one.

I'm still confuzzled as to why Sundance repeats the episodes on Sundays? Like, they'll air the last half of season 13/first half of 14 on Thursday and Friday, or is it Wednesday and Friday? And then air the repeats of the first half of 13 on Sunday! GAH!

And since I don't get WE, I can't speak in specifics and details, though I'm irked that Escape didn't record the remaining of season five, so I could rail at the husband in "Precious" for burying the baby his loonytoons wife killed, and then got pregnant again. I can't recall--was the baby she killed in the opening scene, her second child she'd killed? And then I'm gonna miss the reunion of Waterston and Regina Taylor in "Virtue" even if the only scenes they had was in...court? I was hoping for a one on one scene! And "Scoundrels" which had Jack repeating, sarcastically to Claire at the end "Why, Heavens to Betsy!" that never fails to make me 🤣 And of course "Rage." And "Wannabe" if only to see Jack flip(?) one of the brats' hat off, by saying that "Detective Logan is a Mick" when said brat sneered it at Jack. Or something. It was all in the delivery, because I hate that episode so, so much. And of course, "Bad Faith" which was such a good episode for Mike.

And I think I've figured out some of Sundance's stupid reasoning/thinking of not bleeping the N-word, or any of the other derogatory words: If the episode is about White Supremacists, or deals with the Holocaust, they won't bleep the words. Like last week, season 14's "Evil Breeds" where the victim was a Holocaust Survivor and had been murdered by the guard she identified, and who was going to be sent back to stand for his war crimes; and that the "businessman" who paid for his legal fees was a White Supremacist. During cross-examination of his partner, Jack said the N-word without it being bleeped. But if it's in the context of racism, such as in "Good Girl" the network will bleep it.

The censorship makes no sense, it’s like they bleep at random. 

And yes the husband in Precious was a worthless shithead, why did he continue having children when his wife was just going to kill them? He had to have figured this out but he just went on?!

I liked Virtue, it was the first time we got to hear one of McCoy’s closing arguments and he gave a strong one, I found the case to be interesting despite it not exactly being a regular case. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

So. As I watched Alex's first episode as new ADA, I was thinking to myself, why didn't I like her, either? She seems tough, and doesn't wiffle-waffle like Rohmbot did. Her first two episodes were good. Then I watched "License to Kill" and I wanted her gone. She kept arguing and arguing and ARGUING with Jack about NOT prosecuting Hoss Jr.* for deciding to go all John Wayne and high-speed chase after a mass murderer (something HE didn't Know at the Time!) and ends up killing said murderer and seriously injuring innocent bystanders in the City. What's worse, if not for his actions, Mrs. Flannagan wouldn't have lost her TEENAGE son as well as her husband.

But noooo. Let's just argue he did NOTHING wrong; was within his rights to go chasing the guy, because "Citizen's Arrest." For once, I was glad of Jack losing his temper and getting in Alex's face about it.

Everyone but Jack was an idiot in that episode. From the judge who let him off on $1000 bail, to the first judge dismissing the case, to even the mother of the innocent victim! And don't get me started on the stupidass Jury.

Despite the idiocy of the jury, I loved how calmly Jack ripped Hoss, Jr.'s "story"/defense to shreds.

*Though the actor is Mike Pniewski, he just looks like he could be Dan Blocker's son.

Edited March 21, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[FormerMod-a1]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Everyone but Jack was an idiot in that episode.

I couldn't agree more.  This is one of the episodes I don't watch when it comes on.  It just annoys me.

[Spartan Girl]

On March 19, 2019 at 5:35 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure. And still the husband didn't think to do anything about getting her help before it got to that point?

Should've charged his ass with accessory to murder.

[GHScorpiosRule]

This was me, as I bit the bullet and semi-watched and fast forwarded the rest of season 15 and 16. Now, this is the first time I've watched in syndication, and since I loathe the seasons with Rohmbot and Alex, I don't recall much of the plots/guest stars, resolutions, but I do remember Ed in the hospital, coming out of his coma. But, the rest of season 15 that I FORCED myself to watch, just to see Ed, and if they caught who shot him and killed Clohesy's character, didn't show any of it. Did I miss it? Did they ever catch the guy? WHY did he kill that dude that got the victim pregnant in "Tombstone" and the ending left it ambiguous? There was never any follow up. Or maybe Sundance decided to edit those scenes out? The Fontana and Falco episodes were horrid, horrid, horrid.

And Alex just got worse and worse. With each successive episode, she's fighting to NOT prosecute. 🤬At least with Rohmbot, they were staggered over her seasons. But they had Alex doing it every frickin' episode. So glad that they got rid of her, though I didn't care AT ALL that she was tortured and murdered and we had to see it. If Rene Balcer were still writing, that shit wouldn't have happened.

And as much as I hate the stupid crossovers, I really didn't mind "Flaw" where the SVU plot was resolved on this show. And I didn't mind seeing Olivia Benson. She was still a good character then. I wish we'd seen Elliott, though. What? I wanted me some eye candy and Chris Meloni was/is hawt, hawt, hawt.😍❤️

Ahem.

Though I hate that Wonder Woman Lynda Carter was a con, I enjoyed seeing her on my screen. But DEAR GOD, I don't understand how ANYONE could find April (Estrella Warren) who played her daughter, as "Gorgeous." UGH. With those buck teeth/overbite, collagen inflated lips. Blech. Lynda, a good 20 years older, is MUCH BETTER looking and Gorgeous. And I say this as a straight female.

I did love how they conned April's ass.

And since this is the first time I'm watching season 16 in syndication, I COMPLETELY FORGOT that Kathleen Turner guest starred! In "Magnet." It would have been 11 or 12 years since she and Sam shared a screen since they starred together in Serial Mom, where he played the ditzy husband to her serial killing character!!

Farina was just so MISCAST for this show, despite him having been a cop in real life and having a cop show, Crime Story, where he was a cop, and Tony Denison the villain.

I'm just burning through these horrid seasons, and for Foghorn Leghorn to be gone.

Edited March 24, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

The resolution to Green being shot was on Law and Order: Trial By Jury, a spin-off that lasted for only 13 episodes and is never shown on reruns. I really hate how they don’t show that episode after they show Tombstone, it really pisses me off, just like when they don’t show part 2 of the Homicide crossovers.

I didn’t like the Fontana/Falco partnership at all, both were too abrasive and arrogant, Falco seemed like just a less interesting version of Fontana, Fontana’s arrogance and abrasiveness was okay with the smooth Green to balance him out, but Fontana/Falco was just brutal to watch.

I liked Borgia even less than Serena IMO, she was equally bland and more self righteous.

I agree about License to Kill, I was on Jack’s side and I was annoyed at the vigilante guy who wound up causing the crash, he was very lucky no one else died because of his actions. He should’ve pulled over at a store and called the police. And he obviously knew his actions were wrong IMO because he lied to Fontana and Green when they first interviewed him. That being said, I really like that episode, it was gripping from start to finish, and I liked McCoy going off on Borgia. I wasn’t surprised the jury acquitted because juries tend to like average guy “heroes” like that, but I was hoping he would be found guilty.

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree about License to Kill, I was on Jack’s side and I was annoyed at the vigilante guy who wound up causing the crash, he was very lucky no one else died because of his actions.

But someone did. Tommy Flanagan=the kid that the killer had kidnapped. Causing the crash injured him to the point where his liver failed and he died. That was ALL on Hoss, Jr.

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The resolution to Green being shot was on Law and Order: Trial By Jury, a spin-off that lasted for only 13 episodes and is never shown on reruns

That's right! I remember watching that show, but not caring for it, because there was NO mystery. Even in procedurals, I like to have to think whether the initial suspect is guilty or not; if the defendant that ends up on trial is guilty or not; or if they are, to see the good guys get them; I don't want to have to see the conversations between the suspects and their lawyers. if that makes sense.

And I forgot to add that aside from Peter McRobbie's Judge Robert Bradley, I really don't care for the bunch of trial court judges in the Fontana years. Especially the one whose name I can't remember, except that all I remember him from is Three's Company, where he played Jack's asshole boss, Mr. Rossini. I miss Steinham, Black, Schreiber.

Though I will admit I enjoy Roma Mafia's brash defense attorney.

Edited March 24, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But someone did. Tommy Flanagan=the kid that the killer had kidnapped. Causing the crash injured him to the point where his liver failed and he died. That was ALL on Hoss, Jr.

That's right! I remember watching that show, but not caring for it, because there was NO mystery. Even in procedurals, I like to have to think whether the initial suspect is guilty or not; if the defendant that ends up on trial is guilty or not; or if they are, to see the good guys get them; I don't want to have to see the conversations between the suspects and their lawyers. if that makes sense.

And I forgot to add that aside from Peter McRobbie's Judge Robert Bradley, I really don't care for the bunch of trial court judges in the Fontana years. Especially the one whose name I can't remember, except that all I remember him from is Three's Company, where he played Jack's asshole boss. I miss Steinham, Black, Schreiber.

Though I will admit I enjoy Roma Mafia's brash defense attorney.

The only things I liked about Trial By Jury was Bebe Neuwirth because she's just so awesome in everything and seeing Jamie as a Judge. They should have brought her onto regular Law & Order and ditched Alex. She would have kicked ass. Or when they were looking for Jack's replacement. Her and Connie would have kicked ass.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Jack to Melnick: “AND WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK!”

GLORIOUS!!!!!

But this is one of those episodes I don’t like-instead of watching about a murder, the current political climate (at the time) with federal non-related stuff bleeding into the case. RICCO issues? Federal cases like federal crimes and fighting over jurisdictional issues over whose takes precedence? Sure. But not this.

[Sharpie66]

Watching S6’s “Pro Se” right now. I always watch this one when it’s on. Denis O’Hare is just fantastic as the schizophrenic lawyer James Smith, one of the most interesting killers on this show.

[Xeliou66]

On 3/24/2019 at 11:35 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Jack to Melnick: “AND WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK!”

GLORIOUS!!!!!

But this is one of those episodes I don’t like-instead of watching about a murder, the current political climate (at the time) with federal non-related stuff bleeding into the case. RICCO issues? Federal cases like federal crimes and fighting over jurisdictional issues over whose takes precedence? Sure. But not this.

I loved McCoy blowing up at the always self righteous Melnick, that was epic!! And I agree about the constant Iraq War themed episodes, those got tiresome, there were a slew of them starting in season 14 and going on for 4-5 seasons. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

“Invaders” was worse than I remembered. I’d forgotten that they actually showed the young daughter with the plastic bag around her head in the opening. Was that really necessary?😒

And how stupid was Alex anyway, knowing these murdering thugs were out there, and not even checking to see who was at her door? Oh, right. PLOT.🙄🙄

But nothing but 🥰🥰🥰❤️❤️❤️🥰🥰🥰 when Daniel Benzali showed up as Judge Bookman! He sounded so much like his character from Murder One! But dammit, he was only in three scenes. His Judge is someone I wish had been recurring.

OH.MY.GOD. Govich is WORSE than I remember. With her condescending attitude that eliminating suspects “electronically” is the way to go, and then calls actually speaking to them “old school” as if it’s something that’s obsolete made me want to punch her. LOVED Van Buren getting in her face and tell her, “You mean the RIGHT way?”

She’s horrible. Just terrible.

And ”Fear America” was just GODAWFUL, made much worse with that fear mongering closing statement by POD!Paul. That kind of shit was worthy of the many sleazeball defense attorneys I’ve seen over the years on this show.

The ONLY good thing about this season is Connie Rubirosa.

Edited March 30, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

On March 24, 2019 at 10:55 PM, Sharpie66 said:

Watching S6’s “Pro Se” right now. I always watch this one when it’s on. Denis O’Hare is just fantastic as the schizophrenic lawyer James Smith, one of the most interesting killers on this show.

Good episode, but I'm always mystified by why people feel sorry for that guy. Other than having a mental illness, there's nothing remotely sympathetic about him. He shows little remorse (saying "I'm sorry" doesn't count) refuses accountibility (because he knew what would happen if he didn't take his meds) passes the buck to Claire, and even adds insult to injury to his victims by representing himself and cross examining them himself -- all so that he could prove what "a good lawyer" he could have been. Asshole. He only pleads guilty when his sister decides enough is enough and testifies against him.

Look, what happened to him sucks but there were tons of other perps that were mentally ill/not in control and actually showed more remorse than he did. All I'm saying.

[Sharpie66]

Oh, I think he was a nasty piece of business, just as you say. But, he was interesting, and O’Hare’s performance made him so. 

I love that the show’s filming on location in NYC meant that they really relied on experienced stage actors. One guy I knew in high school showed up in a Criminal Intent ep—Michael Berresse is a Tony nominated musical theatre veteran. My sister saw him on tv but didn’t quite place him until they had the character show a photo from his teen years, and sis knew him immediately. 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

“Invaders” was worse than I remembered. I’d forgotten that they actually showed the young daughter with the plastic bag around her head in the opening. Was that really necessary?😒

And how stupid was Alex anyway, knowing these murdering thugs were out there, and not even checking to see who was at her door? Oh, right. PLOT.🙄🙄

But nothing but 🥰🥰🥰❤️❤️❤️🥰🥰🥰 when Daniel Benzali showed up as Judge Bookman! He sounded so much like his character from Murder One! But dammit, he was only in three scenes. His Judge is someone I wish had been recurring.

OH.MY.GOD. Govich is WORSE than I remember. With her condescending attitude that eliminating suspects “electronically” is the way to go, and then calls actually speaking to them “old school” as if it’s something that’s obsolete made me want to punch her. LOVED Van Buren getting in her face and tell her, “You mean the RIGHT way?”

She’s horrible. Just terrible.

And ”Fear America” was just GODAWFUL, made much worse with that fear mongering closing statement by POD!Paul. That kind of shit was worthy of the many sleazeball defense attorneys I’ve seen over the years on this show.

The ONLY good thing about this season is Connie Rubirosa.

Season 17 was definitely the worst season of L&O. Detective Beauty Queen was by far the worst character in L&O history, she was wooden, smug, incredibly incompetent, unlikable and had no chemistry with anyone else. She was painful to watch.

Also the writing just wasn’t as good this season, it was frequently heavy handed and preachy as well as sloppy and dull. For example I saw the episode Melting Pot recently and the agenda was blatant and the writing predictable: they rip from the headlines of 2 cases, one an actress murdered by an illegal immigrant and the case staged to look like a suicide  and the other the case of a filmmaker murdered by a Muslim extremist, and they twisted it to make a stereotypical slimy greedy evil white guy the killer while making the angry Muslim and the illegal immigrant sympathetic. This kind of blatant political preaching really irritated me and it just showed how lazy the writing was in season 17.

Rubirosa was a great addition though, she’s one of my favorite ADA’s and a massive improvement over both Southerlyn and Borgia, both of whom were bland and frequently irritating.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Good episode, but I'm always mystified by why people feel sorry for that guy. Other than having a mental illness, there's nothing remotely sympathetic about him. He shows little remorse (saying "I'm sorry" doesn't count) refuses accountibility (because he knew what would happen if he didn't take his meds) passes the buck to Claire, and even adds insult to injury to his victims by representing himself and cross examining them himself -- all so that he could prove what "a good lawyer" he could have been. Asshole. He only pleads guilty when his sister decides enough is enough and testifies against him.

Look, what happened to him sucks but there were tons of other perps that were mentally ill/not in control and actually showed more remorse than he did. All I'm saying.

I agree, I didn’t find him sympathetic, he was interesting but not sympathetic IMO, while I feel some sympathy for him because of his schizophrenia, he was somewhat unlikable with how he tried to blame Kincaid for everything and didn’t seem remorseful, he seemed somewhat smug in fact. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Van Buren should have CANNED Cassady’s ass. And OMGEEE! Forgot that Jeremy Sisto was in the Season 17 finale! Don’t get me started on the clusterfuck of “Fanily Hour.” Like Jack would have turned in “mistaken” testimony or anything else that wasn’t exculpatory to the judge or defense in any other episode. Which he didn’t, citing that it wasn’t exculpatory! But it set up the final lines of the episode of Jack saying he wasn’t “a politician.” Which we know he ends up being. But at least we got rid of Foghorn Leghorn, and the powerful closing by Connie.

But...HAH! No wonder the show got better in 18-René Balcer was back! Not only as executive producer, but he wrote the premiere.

But Boo! to Rodgers going blonde.

Edited March 31, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, watching the second episode and a lot of the early season writers are back. Yep, that’s the reason for the vast improvement.

I said it over on TWoP, and I’ll say it again: the sudden change in Jack’s behavior, acting like a politician and more like Foghorn Leghorn instead of Adam, or himself, only after being appointed as DA for two weeks was ridiculous. He should still be Jack. There should have been growing pains until he got comfortable. He would have done exactly what Mike did in the premiere.😒

[Xeliou66]

I think Van Buren did get Beauty Queen removed from the Homicide Squad, after her screw up in The Family Hour, Van Buren basically told her she wasn’t good enough to be on the squad and she was never seen or heard from again after that episode so I think Van Buren got her removed. I hated Beauty Queen, she was just brutal to watch: wooden, incompetent,  with no charisma or chemistry with the rest of the characters. 

I actually like The Family Hour and find it to be highly entertaining in a twisted way.

As for Jack becoming DA, I found the transition to be smooth and believable, McCoy was still himself.

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Okay, watching the second episode and a lot of the early season writers are back. Yep, that’s the reason for the vast improvement.

I said it over on TWoP, and I’ll say it again: the sudden change in Jack’s behavior, acting like a politician and more like Foghorn Leghorn instead of Adam, or himself, only after being appointed as DA for two weeks was ridiculous. He should still be Jack. There should have been growing pains until he got comfortable. He would have done exactly what Mike did in the premiere.😒

I would have liked to see more growing pains too. Jack's always been able to depend on Adam or Arthur to have his back or fix whatever problem he made with politicians and other groups. Now he was in the hot seat. My favorite part of Jack becoming DA was him finally realizing why Adam was so grumpy. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Good episode, but I'm always mystified by why people feel sorry for that guy. Other than having a mental illness, there's nothing remotely sympathetic about him. He shows little remorse (saying "I'm sorry" doesn't count) refuses accountibility (because he knew what would happen if he didn't take his meds) passes the buck to Claire, and even adds insult to injury to his victims by representing himself and cross examining them himself -- all so that he could prove what "a good lawyer" he could have been. Asshole. He only pleads guilty when his sister decides enough is enough and testifies against him.

Look, what happened to him sucks but there were tons of other perps that were mentally ill/not in control and actually showed more remorse than he did. All I'm saying.

I don't feel sorry for him either. Any sympathy I would have for his mental illness is gone because he blames Claire for his following murders, he assumed he would get the same deal even though he murdered more people including a child, he had zero sympathy for any of his victims, and he tries to claim he couldn't possibly know that going off his meds would lead to problems despite it did every single time. He tried to claim his history didn't matter or mean anything. 

I also didn't really like Claire in the episode. She made a huge mistake. She didn't take the call from his sister, she assumed she was trying get leniency but she was wrong, it doesn't sound like she did that much research into the defendant. She may or may not have found out about what happened in college but it also doesn't sound like she interviewed anyone else. It was a mistake. A big one. But she doesn't really take any responsibility for it. Jack doesn't help by blaming her case load. Yes she did have a huge case load that week but she also blames Adam saying she made the deal exactly how he liked them. Maybe Claire, but he also expects you to do your job and look into each case. She didn't do it. It wasn't anyone's fault but hers. She mostly mopes and acts like she's being treated unfairly. Why can't she just admit she made a mistake, a big mistake, it was her fault and say she was sorry? Feel horrible for the new victims. Then try to make up for it. Its really the only thing I don't like about Claire. She did a similar thing when in Censure when she knew what Judge Thayer was like and had an affair with him but doesn't tell Stone. She say she probably shouldn't be involved in the case but doesn't tell Stone when he asks why. Just says she worked with him. Then later when she's forced to tell Ben and Adam. When Ben gets mad and ask why she didn't tell him. She makes that comment about trying to keep her life private or something. That's bull crap. She knew very well why Ben needed to know that. But didn't tell him until she's forced too. Then she doesn't apologize, she doesn't act like she made a mistake. She just gets defensive and resigns. 

[stonehaven]

When I first saw the Claire Kincaid years, I loved her but then, I watched them later on and grew to really be annoyed by her as a character. I couldn't figure out why but then I realized I got used to the strong woman of Jordan Cavanaugh that she played on Crossing Jordan and realized what a weak character she was.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, stonehaven said:

When I first saw the Claire Kincaid years, I loved her but then, I watched them later on and grew to really be annoyed by her as a character. I couldn't figure out why but then I realized I got used to the strong woman of Jordan Cavanaugh that she played on Crossing Jordan and realized what a weak character she was.

I did the same thing but with Alexandra Borgia. I really liked her character on As the World Turns (and hated how she got thrown under the bus for Jack and Carly but that's another issue) and I think that's why I liked her during the first run. Its only during repeats that I realized Alexandra really was horrible and I couldn't stand her. Jordan Cavanugh, she was an awesome character. 

[Xeliou66]

I’m not as big of a Kincaid fan as a lot of others are, I found her to be a bit whiny at times. I still like her overall but she wasn’t as strong as Rubirosa, Ross, Carmichael or Robinette. I didn’t like her in Censure or in Pro Se either.

[Xeliou66]

So I’m watching season 18 today, and I have to say there were some bumps in the road before the show became really good again. I saw Misbegotten, and several weird things stood out: Lupo’s sister in law’s random appearance in the squad room and Green randomly asking about her (she popped up a few times this season, and it was unnatural and forced). Green going off on the parents who aborted the fetus they thought had Down Syndrome was highly OOC and his story about being engaged once came way out of left field. The whole “gay gene” stuff just seemed ridiculous. And without the physical evidence recovered from the apartment, I don’t see how the prosecution had enough evidence to continue their prosecution agaisnt Dean. That whole episode just seemed off. On the positive side, McCoy had some great lines in the episode. Season 18 got off to a bit of a bumpy start, but overall it was the start of the show becoming really good again.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

So I’m watching season 18 today, and I have to say there were some bumps in the road before the show became really good again. I saw Misbegotten, and several weird things stood out: Lupo’s sister in law’s random appearance in the squad room and Green randomly asking about her (she popped up a few times this season, and it was unnatural and forced). Green going off on the parents who aborted the fetus they thought had Down Syndrome was highly OOC and his story about being engaged once came way out of left field. The whole “gay gene” stuff just seemed ridiculous. And without the physical evidence recovered from the apartment, I don’t see how the prosecution had enough evidence to continue their prosecution agaisnt Dean. That whole episode just seemed off. On the positive side, McCoy had some great lines in the episode. Season 18 got off to a bit of a bumpy start, but overall it was the start of the show becoming really good again.

I agree. I haven't seen today's episodes yet, but from what you've written, I agree. I was just so happy to see René Balcer and the writers and producers from the early seasons back, that I knew the horrid years were behind us. Still missing Lennie like nobody's business. They really should have dropped the one liners that Lennie said before the show rolled the opening credits. Jerry Orbach was the only one who excelled at that. There were a few clunkers, like that episode that tried to be the opposite of "Life Choice" and FAILED miserably. But I think that was in Season 19 or maybe the final season, because I know it was with Anthony Anderson's character and Lupo.

I just love Mike Cutter. He's like a hybrid of Ben Stone and Jack McCoy!😛

[Xeliou66]

The abortion episode you are talking about was Dignity, it was from season 20 and don’t even get me started on that dreck. The second worst episode in L&O history behind Aftershock IMO. 

I like Cutter for the most part, although at times he relied too much on trickery to win cases. But he was compelling and charismatic, and I liked the chemistry between Cutter, McCoy and Rubirosa a lot, in fact the entire cast gelled really well together in the final seasons, the best chemistry between the cast since season 10 IMO. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The abortion episode you are talking about was Dignity, it was from season 20 and don’t even get me started on that dreck. The second worst episode in L&O history behind Aftershock IMO. 

I like Cutter for the most part, although at times he relied too much on trickery to win cases. But he was compelling and charismatic, and I liked the chemistry between Cutter, McCoy and Rubirosa a lot, in fact the entire cast gelled really well together in the final seasons, the best chemistry between the cast since season 10 IMO. 

Thanks. And for realzies! I'd also add it's up there with "Smoked" and that episode about the citizen's arrest with Hoss, Jr., which I don't feel like looking up. Even though I know you liked the episode!

When I first saw Cutter, I squealed and said: "It's Thomas Wayne!" He played Thomas Wayne, father to young Bruce Wayne in Nolan's Batman Begins. I think he also played John Kennedy in some mini series years ago. He's very charismatic.

I loved his closing in "Driven" which was not a good episode. I hated it. Or rather, I had no use for any of the defendants. Although I've always wondered why the jury found both guilty of killing the little girl, and not the white, rich, white boy. I did love the Adam shout out. Because I do so miss Adam. In about two weeks, we'll be back to season one!😁

I would disagree and say that despite(?) in spite(?) (I can never tell when to use the latter) of the personality conflicts between Noth and Dzundza, the chemistry was really good with all the actors in the first five seasons. I tend to let my mind wander once Rey shows up.

Let's just say that 2001-2007 sucked. Even if 2007 gave us Connie, we still had Cassady. 🤢.

And "Misbegotten." UGH, UGH, UGH! 😡😡Aborting your child because some doctor "says" he has the "gay gene" and you're really a fucking homophobe like your dad and father-in-law. And just what the fuck was Green smoking, trying to guilt the father into confessing to bombing the office, because he and his wife sued for being told their last chance at a biological child would have Downs Syndrome? And what's his never before referenced ex-fiance wanting to have an abortion, but he didn't have anything to do with the case? I guess I'm naive because I thought by 2007 things were better for the LGBTQ community. In that for those that did come out, it wasn't a death sentence/wouldn't be ostracized like it was 10 years before. Not that everyone accepted and were okay with those that are gay, but at least not as bad as it was a decade earlier.

And I know I sound like a hypocrite, but at least when Mike had the conversation in "Life Choice" with Max and later with Lennie (episode escapes me), it was organic. In the former, Mike said it was her choice and she wanted the abortion, and now years later, she's married with two kids and happy. So suck it! Max, with his hypocrisy over abortion being used as a life style choice. You didn't have Mike whining and moaning how he didn't have a say and he felt he should have had a say, or that they argued over it. THAT'S how you use to flesh out characters==with organic bits of information.

But one episode I could have done without was the one after "Misbegotten" the one that started with those stupid pants. I really don't like seeing the victim alive in the cold openings. I said it up thread, I prefer when the crime's already been committed--and the cops show up.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

When I first saw Cutter, I squealed and said: "It's Thomas Wayne!" He played Thomas Wayne, father to young Bruce Wayne in Nolan's Batman Begins. I think he also played John Kennedy in some mini series years ago. He's very charismatic.

And I know I sound like a hypocrite, but at least when Mike had the conversation in "Life Choice" with Max and later with Lennie (episode escapes me), it was organic. In the former, Mike said it was her choice and she wanted the abortion, and now years later, she's married with two kids and happy. So suck it! Max, with his hypocrisy over abortion being used as a life style choice. You didn't have Mike whining and moaning how he didn't have a say and he felt he should have had a say, or that they argued over it. THAT'S how you use to flesh out characters==with organic bits of information.

That's what I first thought when I saw Cutter! Batman's Dad! I really did like him in that role. Cutter grew on me which I didn't really expect. McCoy had been in that role for so long I wasn't sure how it would go having someone new. 

I love, love that they had that Mike say that! Yes so many people usually the pro-birth always seem to think abortion is something the woman regrets her entire life. Ah, no. Sure it happens but not really that often. For most they made the best decision and moved on. Their not sobbing every night over what they've done, filled with regret. Their lives aren't ruined. No, they move on. And yes most are happy. Most are in a good place in their life. Many even do go on to marry and have kids later on. I loved Max's shock given what he's said about abortion. 

[Xeliou66]

License to Kill is the name of the episode where the guy attempted to perform a citizens arrest and caused the car crash. 

I strongly disagree about the show sucking from 2001-2007, the Briscoe/Green years were excellent IMO. 

Misbegotten was a weak episode I agree, the plot seemed preposterous, and Green was way OOC. 

Bottomless was the episode after Misbegotten, and it was just confusing IMO. I still don’t know what happened to the pants of the guy that was suing the dry cleaners, and that turned out to really have nothing to do with the murder, and then the murder was forgotten about and it became more about the greedy corporation and the security guy that used to be Van Buren’s boss. The whole episode was a jumbled, convoluted mess with a lot of cliches, but at least we got a bit more of Van Buren and I liked the fina scene between McCoy and Cutter.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I was wrong! Roache played Robert Kennedy in the TV movie RFK. And just watching “Illegal” in addition to Jack’s “Now I know why Adam Schiff was so grumpy” (😂😂😂) after learning that asswipe Latham accused Jack of misconduct, the ending was very meta, with Mike giving Jack a Bobby Kennedy tie pin he “found” on eBay! Seeing as how Roache had played him!

What I loved about this was seeing the ADA Jack. And I loved how he shut that Auxilary cop’s attorney, when she was goading Jack about being untrustworthy and always having to be reined in.

But I didn’t like all the “liberal agenda” being thrown around.

[GHScorpiosRule]

My first "SHUT UP, JACK, YOU HYPOCRITE!" in Season 19's "Falling." And FUCK YOU, Writers. Like I'm supposed to believe Jack thinks he was wrong for the stipulation of sterilization for that baby killer in "Precious." Or that slam at Adam for "not reining him in" when Jack made that stipulation. Or saying that Jack didn't question pleas/allocutions when someone admits to being guilty. Oh yeah? What about "Bling", you ass? I can only think that the writers that returned weren't watching seasons 15-17 or thereabouts, to know that Jack DID exactly that. And in front of the same judge! Judge Bradley!

But let me go back and say that I SWEAR, I don't remember that Ed had been charged and indicted for murder in his last episode! All I remembered was him leaving due to his gambling. And "Burncard" was a horrid episode. I got visions and was yelling while watching (this is the first time since its original airing) that Ed just got Profaci'd!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I really don't like that we got a fake Governor  after Bloomberg left office, and especially since he'd played himself on this show. But, I supposed Wolf/Balcer, etc., felt it was necessary to do so in order to have an antagonist for Jack. 

BAH!

Mike sure didn't have some shining moments in season 19.

And it was totally Mike Logan that was the cop that Liz slept with when crossed by Cutter in "Betrayal." I know some here aren't fans of that inference, but I am. But what I can never buy is that she would have confided in Jack about this. And he gave that information to use against Liz because he was all butthurt she was testifying for the defense. But then two episodes later, it's all BYGONES! because she's back on "his" "their" "the cops'" side. And I notice that while the show alternated with Skoda  and Liz from seasons 11-15ish? But it seems it's back to Liz in the last three or four seasons?

On 4/5/2019 at 2:18 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I strongly disagree about the show sucking from 2001-2007, the Briscoe/Green years were excellent IMO

I should have clarified, that I think the chemistry, aside from and between VanBuren, Lennie and Green, sucked. It was in response to the chemistry between all team members. Nora was too aloof, and Foghorn was always trumpeting his own horn. And Rohmbot and Alex were just so bland, whiny and just didn't gel.  But, as they say, chemistry is subjective.

Edited April 8, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

It’s funny how they went back and forth with the psych experts - it was all Olivet in the early seasons, then all Skoda in 8-12, then they alternated, then it was all Olivet and then Skoda came back and made 3 appearances in the final season. 

What fake Mayor are you talking about? Are you talking about Shalvoy, he was the Governor of NY, not the mayor, he was a stand in for Spitzer. 

I was pissed at Green’s exit as well, Green was one of my favorite characters and his exit could’ve been so much better. I loved the reference to Briscoe though, and how Green slipped back into gambling after Briscoe’s death. I also liked how it introduced Bernard and the Bernard/Lupo partnership, and I was glad Green got a goodbye scene with Van Buren and Lupo. 

Regarding Illegal, I think that was a great episode, I loved McCoy firing that asswipe Latham and McCoy taking the stand, and I loved McCoy’s response when accused of having a “liberal agenda”. That was probably my favorite episode of season 18.

[CrazyInAlabama]

This may sound trivial, but I always had an issue with Lupo.    It was his makeup, it made him look pale and not quite healthy, but that may be the HD they show everything in now.    I did like the partnership that Lupo and Bernard had, but my favorite was always Lenny and Logan.    

Edited April 8, 2019 by CrazyInAlabama

[WendyCR72]

27 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I did like the partnership that Lupe and Bernard had, but my favorite was always Lenny and Logan.   

Ooooh, good. I'm not alone!

[GHScorpiosRule]

51 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

It’s funny how they went back and forth with the psych experts - it was all Olivet in the early seasons, then all Skoda in 8-12, then they alternated, then it was all Olivet and then Skoda came back and made 3 appearances in the final season. 

What fake Mayor are you talking about? Are you talking about Shalvoy, he was the Governor of NY, not the mayor, he was a stand in for Spitzer. 

I was pissed at Green’s exit as well, Green was one of my favorite characters and his exit could’ve been so much better. I loved the reference to Briscoe though, and how Green slipped back into gambling after Briscoe’s death. I also liked how it introduced Bernard and the Bernard/Lupo partnership, and I was glad Green got a goodbye scene with Van Buren and Lupo. 

Regarding Illegal, I think that was a great episode, I loved McCoy firing that asswipe Latham and McCoy taking the stand, and I loved McCoy’s response when accused of having a “liberal agenda”. That was probably my favorite episode of season 18.

D’OH! Yes, I meant Governor. I corrected it. I got that he was supposed to be a stand in for Spitzer, but I still wasn’t a fan.

Oh yes! Loved Jack’s firing of Latham.

[Xeliou66]

I saw Marathon today, it’s always so unusual to see tension between Briscoe/Green in this one, but it’s a gripping episode. There is a heavy focus on the detectives and very little on the DA’s, but a lot of good detective work to solve the case, and I liked how it was Briscoe’s determination that led to the case being closed. It was funny how Briscoe had to ask Green for the file that he just threw at him. Sabo got off with an easy sentence but the DA’s had no choice but to make the deal, and I was irritated with Carmichael for suggesting that they shouldn’t make the deal and risk another woman getting raped while they chased down new leads, McCoy and Schiff were right, the deal had to be made. Van Buren was great when she talked to Briscoe in her office after he threw the file at Green.

A couple of funny lines from the episode:

Briscoe, after the German tourist couple disagrees on every detail about the shooter “no wonder they needed a wall!!”

Briscoe when him and Green are interrogating a suspect and he asks if they are doing the good cop/bad cop routine “if you don’t wise up it’s going to be bad cop/bad cop!!”.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I have a theory about the cold openings of the last three seasons: With René Balcer return (after leaving CI, maybe?), he hadn't shaken off how its cold openings started with the victims alive. BAH! Along with the depressing music.

I'm blanking on the episode now, and though the topic was...well I don't know what term/description to use, but it made me laugh my ass off. 

Bernard, Lupo and VanBuren are talking about how third world countries don't have toilets, and Lupo said when he was doing intel work, it was "Left hand and a bowl of water" or something like that to describe how he cleaned his tush because there was no toilet paper. And it's VanBuren's reaction that made and makes me 🤣🤣:

"That's NASTY." 

It was all in her expression and the delivery.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Wonderful. Sundance jumps to Season 13 after completing Season 20.😒😒😒😒😒

[GHScorpiosRule]

Huh. Season 20’s season premiere covers early July to early August. Episode 2 jumps back to July. And it’s clearly not a “flashback” episode.

I will reiterate (as I haven’t watched this season since its original airing) here that I’m disappointed Show decided to have Anita’s marriage break up (and NO MENTION OF IT) but stupid Rey’s was the ONLY one to remain. The two glimpses we got of Mr. VanBuren, he seemed decent. They coulda recast him if they wanted Ernie Hudson.

But noooooo. Let’s just have him be a cheating asshole who gave Anita cancer!🤬

Not to say that Epatha didn’t knock this story out of the park, because she did. But she’s AWESOME in EVERYTHING, but I would have liked it if they could have shown it with Anita and her husband dealing with this together.

[topanga]

50 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I will reiterate (as I haven’t watched this season since its original airing) here that I’m disappointed Show decided to have Anita’s marriage break up (and NO MENTION OF IT) but stupid Rey’s was the ONLY one to remain. The two glimpses we got of Mr. VanBuren, he seemed decent. They coulda recast him if they wanted Ernie Hudson.

 But noooooo. Let’s just have him be a cheating asshole who gave Anita cancer!🤬

I thought Anita’s first husband was the one who gave her HPV — leading to cervical cancer, and Ernie Hudson was the one who was there to support her through her cancer treatment. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, topanga said:

I thought Anita’s first husband was the one who gave her HPV — leading to cervical cancer, and Ernie Hudson was the one who was there to support her through her cancer treatment. 

He was. That was my point-that I’m pissed the show did that when the two times we saw him, he was a good guy/husband. And if they wanted Ernie, recast the husband with Ernie in the role. And since they wanted to do a cancer storyline, not have her husband give it to her and have her husband support her through it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Lookit the Daily Show Alumni who appeared on Mothership!!

1. Aasif Mandvi ***
2. Jason Jones
3. Rob Corrdry
4. Samantha Bee
5. Stephen Colbert*

*Only on Criminal Intent.

***All three shows!!!😄😄

[Xeliou66]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:56 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I have a theory about the cold openings of the last three seasons: With René Balcer return (after leaving CI, maybe?), he hadn't shaken off how its cold openings started with the victims alive. BAH! Along with the depressing music.

I'm blanking on the episode now, and though the topic was...well I don't know what term/description to use, but it made me laugh my ass off. 

Bernard, Lupo and VanBuren are talking about how third world countries don't have toilets, and Lupo said when he was doing intel work, it was "Left hand and a bowl of water" or something like that to describe how he cleaned his tush because there was no toilet paper. And it's VanBuren's reaction that made and makes me 🤣🤣:

"That's NASTY." 

It was all in her expression and the delivery.

I agree that the cold opens were borrowed from CI, I preferred the openings of someone stumbling upon a crime scene but I didn’t mind the cold opens we got in the final seasons. 

The episode you are talking about is Zero, they were discussing the victims ultra environmentally friendly lifestyle. Van Buren’s delivery was great in that scene.