Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[wonderwall]

I mean... the chemistry was definitely there

[Starfish35]

MG has apparently been pretty clear that current-day Laurel Lance is not coming back to life.   

[LLBlackCanary]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:04 AM, Starfish35 said:

MG has apparently been pretty clear that current-day Laurel Lance is not coming back to life.   

Yeah uncle guggie has said a lot of things. Anyway laurel is too important of a character not too bring back

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 1:57 AM, looptab said:

Hahahahaha 

Also, I feel like I need to note that no one has said a word about her being on Supergirl, they just talked about the other three shows. So...yeah.

It's basically confirmed. Out of all the characters on arrow LL has the most chance of showing up besides Oliver

[kismet]

I do think there is the potential that Flashpoint will bring LL back to life. Because current/present day is all relative when you can simply change the timeline with a little run. What is present day, when the timeline keeps on changing? MG's words are meaningless until we see how FP actually impacts the storyline.

My only hope is that if they do, they do a far better job writing for her. KC does a far better job portraying her. They drop the St. Laurel propaganda. Perhaps let KC act to her strengths which is more mean girl than martyr. And they find a way to make her actually relevant, otherwise just put her statue in the background and call it a day.

[LLBlackCanary]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:04 AM, wonderwall said:

I mean... the chemistry was definitely there

They were perfect ❤

[dtissagirl]

[looptab]

This is all well and good, but maybe let's try and keep it spoiler free? Her new contract is a known fact, the rest is not.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Oh man they should teach a class on how to make a kiss look painful. They are pros LOL.

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I mean... the chemistry was definitely there

This gif needs more Tommy staring longingly from the window. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

19 minutes ago, LLBlackCanary said:

Yeah uncle guggie has said a lot of things. Anyway laurel is too important of a character not too bring back

Out of curiosity... In your opinion (and not bringing up comics... Just purely in show), how was she an important character for Oliver present day?

Edited July 25, 2016 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

14 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I mean... the chemistry was definitely there

Director: Hey guys can we get some tongue?....Can your lips actually meet?...This biting air thing is a little weird...

4x06 Director: That's a lot of tongue. Slow-mo tongue.

[Sakura12]

Was that kiss where they were keeping their hips as far away from each other as humanly possible? 

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Was that kiss where they were keeping their hips as far away from each other as humanly possible? 

I believe this was: 

[dtissagirl]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Was that kiss where they were keeping their hips as far away from each other as humanly possible? 

Excuse me, you gotta leave space for the holy spirit!

[Sakura12]

^ well that one looks super awkward. And I assume it was meant to be romantic with the bright light that often shows up when two people kiss on tv and movies.  

Edited July 25, 2016 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

Excuse me, you gotta leave space for the holy spirit!

It's coming in through the window!

[dtissagirl]

I love the hands. "God, where do I put my hands?" "Oh lord, do my hands go up or down?" "OH MY GOD WHY EVEN DO I HAVE HANDS."

[Sakura12]

No wonder there anti-chemistry was so noticeable, they look like two people that have never kissed anyone before. 

[lemotomato]

Much chemistry. Such perfect.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver looks like someone just died! 

 

l

o

l

[lemotomato]

You'd think he just lost his best friend or something. Like, why wouldn't he be dreamily smiling and planning for the future?

[kismet]

Well cuz Tommy just died! He was all heartbroken...

And LL was like score, perhaps I can get some grief sex and a guilt based relationship out of this development. Tommy, who?

[catrox14]

DYING LOL. I swear. I really thought they were going to reveal that Laurel was crazy all along and that she got what she wanted and they would actually have her exposition like any good villain does about her nefarious plan....BUT NOPE. Gods this just reminds me of how awful she was with Oliver ALWAYS. So terrible

[LLBlackCanary]

Personally in he flash I want then to redeem Black Siren. Maybe she'll help them and eventually along the way she'll turn good. 

[LLBlackCanary]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 2:26 AM, wonderwall said:

Out of curiosity... In your opinion (and not bringing up comics... Just purely in show), how was she an important character for Oliver present day?

Well in my opinion she can relate a lot to Oliver. Both had lost important people in the life And both had a lot of hardships they had to get through. Laurel was a drug addict. She was at her worst. She saw her sister die two times. Oliver called her out on her drug problem and yelled at her. Despite all the odds she pulled herself together,. Thought this we could see that one loved Oliver more then her. It takes a special kind of restraint and selflessness to see the love of you life with someone else

[Trini]

With Black Siren, I got the feeling that the Flash writers were saying 'This is how cool Black Canary would be if she were on our show'. (Just my impression.)

[Chaser]

IDK. I know there is this belief that The Flash crew are all fanboys who love Black Canary, but I don't get that impression. They had chances to really play with the character and they didn't. Her first appearance could have been a comic dream. Team up with Flash, meet the crew, nods to comic origins, etc.. It wasn't. She went with her Dad and only interacted with Cisco. Outside of a pic, she never appeared in costume right?

She wasn't in The Flash portion of the crossover.

They could have made her E2 Black Canary but instead they went with Black Siren, who was created for the cartoon and not a big character. She was a VOTW who was treated as such.

[Midnight Lullaby]

But no one stopped them from bringing her over to the Flash if they wanted to. Despite that even when they had the chance to use her in the crossovers she didn't have a role or a very small one.

I'm going with what AK said that showing the earth 2 versions of the characters we know is a cool thing to do and I agree that it can be. That's how much meaning I can give to her appearance as Black Siren..as fans we can be petty sometimes but the writers are professionals, they do their job to make their show successful, not to shade their fellow writers.

[looptab]

I might be the only one, but I didn't even find Black Siren to be that awesome - she was just slightly less awful than Laura.

[Starfish35]

You're not.  I wasn't impressed either.  I mean, yes, given the choice I'd pick her over the ludicrous BC, but that's not much of a choice.  KC does do a better bad girl, but *shrug*...I still wasn't all that impressed.  And also I kept getting distracted by how badly the Black Siren makeup aged her in some scenes.  I may not like KC, but I've never denied she's a beautiful woman.  And that was not flattering. 

[Chaser]

For me its not about how good or bad she was, it's that in the narrative the only thing that made her stand out was that she looked like LL. Change the actress and would anyone be asking if she would be coming back? Probably not.

[dtissagirl]

Flash would need to be a show that knows how to write female characters as three dimensional people with a multitude of emotions, before I could believe they can do something passable with a character like Black Siren.

Maaaaaaybe with Zack Stentz there now, who knows? He at least has actual experience writing complex female protagonists in genre. But he's not running the show, so.

[Sakura12]

Black Canary was better as a villain? Because that is how they wrote Black Siren on the Flash. 

[Chaser]

I totally forgot about it, but Wells didn't even know who she was. They had to explain her importance to the audience.

[kismet]

"We didn't just know her, we love her". A few episodes after none of them showing up to her funeral or even mentioned it, except Barry who was late and frankly unmoved. And that's after no one mentioned her loss, until some doppelganger showed up. Oh yea, I forgot we loved this random chick from SC that we never mention, refer to or talk to. Truly one of the highlights of LL grief train, I half expected them to need to pull out an old yearbook to try to remember why this new chick looks familiar.

[Sakura12]

It makes sense to me that no one knows her, she was only operating as super hero for a year. Even then she was part of team of fighters. 

I think Sara was talked about more by the general public since Felicity found accounts talking about a woman dressed in black beating up misogynist criminals. Roy talked about a woman in the Glades that was saving people. That's why I can only imagine her making that much of a difference if people thought the Canary in Black and the Black Canary were the same person. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

5 hours ago, LLBlackCanary said:

Well in my opinion she can relate a lot to Oliver. Both had lost important people in the life And both had a lot of hardships they had to get through. Laurel was a drug addict. She was at her worst. She saw her sister die two times. Oliver called her out on her drug problem and yelled at her. Despite all the odds she pulled herself together,. Thought this we could see that one loved Oliver more then her. It takes a special kind of restraint and selflessness to see the love of you life with someone else

See I'd sort of accept this if the show never told us otherwise. The show is about Oliver moving forward and not living in the past. Laurel represents his past. So why would Laurel be useful to Oliver when she represents the worst parts of him? She was the woman he cheated on multiple times, she was the woman he constantly treated terribly, the woman who he would've easily sacrificed in season 2 if Lance didn't push him, the woman who he treated like a thorn on his side for much of season 3. Laurel's never had a lasting impact on Oliver like other characters have had. Heck, even on her deathbed her words didn't have much of an impact because after her death he went 7 months going about everything alone until Felicity pushes him to get a new team.

Laurel's had the least impact on Oliver's growth in the series. I'd argue that she's held him back more than pushed him forward. 

Also some things that you mentioned bothered me because they're factually wrong:

• Oliver didn't call her out on her drug problem. I implore you to watch the scene again. He literally offered to buy her drinks because he was done with her. He didn't yell at her because he wanted her to be better, he yelled at her because he was frustrated and, again, was done with her. 
• Laurel's only watched her sister die one time. She's experienced her death twice, but she only saw it once. 

Yes. Laurel's been through hardships just like everyone else on the show has been through. 

So again, I ask, what does Laurel offer to Oliver's journey that helps push him forward that no other character does? Felicity is the one that inspires Oliver to do and be better. Diggle is the one who keeps Oliver on track. Thea is Oliver's last remaining family member... Yeah Laurel and Oliver have history... But in the end, does that really mean anything?

Edited July 26, 2016 by wonderwall

[looptab]

10 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

It takes a special kind of restraint and selflessness to see the love of you life with someone else

I'd say a special kind of masochism and zero self respect. Since, she really didn't have to keep staying in his orbit. Also, I find amusing- and slightly disturbing - that this was given as an answer to the question "why is she important to Oliver". So, because he needed a fan?

Edited July 26, 2016 by looptab

[Chaser]

6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It makes sense to me that no one knows her, she was only operating as super hero for a year. Even then she was part of team of fighters. 

I think Sara was talked about more by the general public since Felicity found accounts talking about a woman dressed in black beating up misogynist criminals. Roy talked about a woman in the Glades that was saving people. That's why I can only imagine her making that much of a difference if people thought the Canary in Black and the Black Canary were the same person. 

I don't think anyone was talking about the citizen's knowledge. I was talking about Wells making that comment because they needed someone to explain to The Flash audience why this woman was important because they didn't bother showing a relationship at all. I think kismet was expanding on that lack of relationship.

[kismet]

19 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It makes sense to me that no one knows her, she was only operating as super hero for a year. Even then she was part of team of fighters. 

Yes but Team Flash was supposed to be her closest friends, who were tragically mourning her loss - which is why seeing Black Siren made them so uncomfortable.

I don't frankly know what the public perception or knowledge of BC is, it seems to be a lot more than we're told since we got a copycat within minutes of her unscheduled & unplanned death. Baby Canary must have been psychic to know that she wouldn't need her mask anymore.

[looptab]

3 minutes ago, kismet said:

Baby Canary must have been psychic to know that she wouldn't need her mask anymore.

No, she was around the ER a lot - the doctor said that - and walked in front of Laura's room right after she died.

But yeah, I'm sure all Star City is mourning her loss!

Edited July 26, 2016 by looptab

[kismet]

So, opportunistic thief with questionable judgment & skills, sounds just about right* for LL's legacy.

Edited July 26, 2016 by kismet
typo* thanks edit button

[statsgirl]

From the Mind Your Surroundings thread:

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The problem is that Oliver was already trying to save the city so her influence was never a factor

That's a good point.  Tommy died early enough in Oliver's arc that his death could have a major impact.  By the time Laurel die, Oliver was already far on the road to his Hero's Journey.  The only effect of Laurel's death was to move him backwards

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't even think they're having Laurel or her death affect Oliver or the mission the way Tommy did tbh.That seemed to be the intention when the death was first teased, it seemed like the point will be for Oliver to deal with it differently, that we won't see him regress, that he won't feel guilty and blame himself this time etc but all that was lost in season 5 when they suddenly decided they needed to regress the show and Oliver's development a couple of seasons back. Then all we got was Laurel's death being used for why Oliver killed again and had him blame himself again and the only mission he seems to be taking on inspired by Laurel is looking for a new BC which is all about their bts struggle with the BC character and nothing to do with Oliver and his development. Like everything else Laurel related, her death and the aftermath is a totally mess imo. 

So true about it all being a mess.  They wanted to show how important Laurel was to Oliver, except that she was only in terms of the past.

43 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They should've had Laurel take on the role of confidant after they decided to move away from love interest. Yes it is a role that is filled by Diggle, but those roles dont have to be specifically one person, they each could approach things differently and have different ways to deal with Oliver. She's been in his life long enough that they could have had them realize that they are better off friends and grow from there instead of having a constant wedge between them each season. Laurel, imo of course, was fitting in with the team great in the 2nd half of s4 before she was killed. And if they had kept her around, having her be Olivers legal adviser would've helped tie them together. 

I think making Laurel Oliver's legal confident would have been a good idea, both in terms of criminal and business areas.

The problem would have been in terms of other areas except possibly around Thea, that would have been a good role for Laurel because she had known Thea since she was a child and might have been able to advise Oliver in terms of Thea and Oliver really could have used her help around the Malcolm situation. Maybe he wouldn't have been so adamant about not killing Malcolm then.

But in other areas, there wasn't really a place for her as his confidante.  Diggle had been through war, and Sara had been through the island and the self-hatred brought on by the killing she had done. Laurel couldn't have understood any of that.  And after the contempt and anger she showered on him in seasons 1 and 2, she couldn't have taken on the role of being the light that inspires

[Chaser]

Laurel's interactions in the back half of S4 highlighted the problem with the character. They were only achieved by removing a member (or members in the case of 4x09) of the Team. She was given the role normally assigned to Diggle or Felicity. And not without a certain amount of irony, those interactions were to set up her death. Laurel needed to be super supportive and friendly and hopeful so Oliver (and the audience) would have the reaction they wanted. 

[catrox14]

I don't think Laurel could have even been a good legal adviser to Oliver. She was not a great trial lawyer IMO.  She was attacking the criminals in their literal hospital beds. I'm just not seeing that her legal eagle status was worthy of advising Oliver. She didn't recuse herself despite a clear conflict of interest with Moira's trial.

[Chaser]

My favorite was DD's trial because until that point I didn't think there could be a bigger fail then Moira's. Oh but there could be. I went back and checked and quarks listed 16 fails by Laurel Lawyer.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Chaser

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

My favorite was DD's trial because until that point I didn't think there could be a bigger fail then Moira's. Oh but there could be. I went back and checked and quarks listed 16 fails by Laurel Lawyer.

Like... how in the world could she not have had a plan to take down Darhk in court? Is she that moronic? 

[EmilyBettFan]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Laurel could have even been a good legal adviser to Oliver. She was not a great trial lawyer IMO.  She was attacking the criminals in their literal hospital beds. I'm just not seeing that her legal eagle status was worthy of advising Oliver. She didn't recuse herself despite a clear conflict of interest with Moira's trial.

Not only that she needed the hood to win her few court battles she had. Such a competent lawyer (sarcasm.)

Just now, wonderwall said:

Like... how in the world could she not have had a plan to take down Darhk in court? Is she that moronic? 

She needed the rest of the team to give her ways to rebuttal against darhk that she didn't even think of. I just can't see how anyone could think she was successful in court and on the field. The only thing she had going for her was the scream and that was only on occasion. 

[BkWurm1]

This got more detailed than I intended.  It's my fix it for Laurel in season two.  

I think after season one, the best thing they could have done for Laurel would have been for her to turn to training and the gym with Ted over Tommy's death.  Just let that kind of compulsive training be something going on in the background, not worth even focusing on.  Let her spend a season really obsessed with using the law to bring justice, she could even train with her Dad so they could exchange PoV's.   

Skip the alcoholism or at least letting it go so far as it did, maybe have the DUI be her wake up call right away.  Skip the work place drama.  Try to make Moira's trial less stupid.  They could still have let her go after the hood and blame him only to realize she really blamed herself but lower the hysteria.

After the first conversation with Oliver, let them just not see each other.  The way they showed their relationship, it doesn't make sense that either would want to be around each other. And that's before the Moira trial.  Her connection to the show should have been her dad and trying to maybe catch the same guys that Oliver and Co were after.  If I'd had my way, she wouldn't have even been a part of the Moria trial.  Really, this should have been the season where they drastically dropped her screen time.  What she'd have to add to the show would be minimal at first that season.  

Her season arc would be becoming more and more disillusioned as she found more corruption within the system and more and more understanding of why her dad had come around to the Arrow's way of doing things.  She should have been shown to really find the reports of the woman in black fascinating.  She'd know she was working with the Arrow and maybe at the point where she finds out stuff about Blood, she tries to contact the Arrow only to instead get the Canary.  And then she keeps reaching out to the Canary, not knowing it's her not dead sister. 

Also, this would have been a good time for Felicity and Laurel to get to know each other.  Quentin knows what she does and so she could have been the way for Laurel to connect to the Canary as well.  Help connect the cast a bit.  

 Back to the subject of Sara.  Her dad will know and is keeping it from her.  It all comes to a head when Laurel finds out Sara is alive.  She's overjoyed at first only to find out that Sara had been in town for months as the Canary and working with her as the Canary (and starting to bond) and didn't tell her.  And her dad had known.  Cue thrown wine glass and furious at her family.  

Skip Sara and Oliver dating. There's not time for that, but the show could still tease it as a possibility along with Laurel since it's Slade that's trying to target the woman he loved and that way Felicity would still be the swerve. 

Then when she's estranged from Sara and her Dad, that's when Slade tells her Oliver's identity, expecting her, the hard nosed DA to turn on him.  Only reveal she'd already figured it out since Sara was the woman in Black going around with the Arrow and because of Sara, she won't out him, not because she knows him in her bones.  Admit she doesn't know what happened to them those five years but accepts that they are not the same people they'd been when they ran off behind her back.  Let that be how she finds a way to forgive and move on.  

Then at the end of the season instead of Sara going back to Nanda Parbat (since Nyssa refused to let her go back, she loves her too much to make her return to that life even if Sara had been willing), Sara gets a job at Laurel's gym.  

Moving to season three, let Sara survive on the show for at least a couple months, during that time show the sisters as really getting along and Sara being a little obsessed with teaching Laurel how to fight, not intending that she'd ever don a mask, but wanting to make sure she could always protect herself.  Laurel could form kind of a subset of the team, working heavily with Sara in addition to locking up the criminals they caught.  

And when Sara does die, let there be some suspicion at first that she died looking into some case Laurel had been helping her with apart from Team Arrow, thus giving Laurel a better reason to eventually pretend to be Sara to continue digging on her own.  And it would also make Laurel seem more reasonable in thinking she could bring her killer to account before she told her father that Sara had died.  Still, keep that to only a few episodes and him thinking he'd seen Sara only to one episode before confessing the truth.  It would still be emotionally wrenching (especially if fooling him was an unintended consequence) but not enough to make me furious.  

I'll leave it there since there are so many things about season three that had nothing to do with Laurel that I'd also want to change, lol.  

Edited December 27, 2016 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

My biggest problem is that we can and have all written amazing fix its but if LL returns that is not what the writers will do. They will find some way to muck it all up again.

I also don't think KCs ideas or acting choices have changed much which will make her return problematic on Arrow. Well that and her antichemistry with SA.

I just don't see any good coming out of her return unless they allow her to be bad or let another shows writers room take her on.