Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[kismet]

The WB was considering a BoP spinoff back in S2 [along with a Suicide Squad spinoff], and then discarded it because it got no traction. I'm not sure they'd be willing to pick up the idea again.

It lived for 13 episodes on the air. I remember it coming and disappearing on the WB, before it became the CW. The show premiered big and then crashed & burned hard. And the WB was considered a female friendly network, so there is no way the CW who is now trying not to be known as the female network is going to easily forget what happened the last time they tried an all-female comics show.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birds_of_Prey_%28TV_series%29

[quarks]

Except they wouldn't anyway. The network didn't decide what charecters to use, MG and co did. They obviously wanted to have their cake and eat it too. She obviously isn't dragging the ratings down so they wouldn't be worried especially considering they are using Ray who didn't have an out pour of great reviews.

 

 

 

1. Berlanti, Kriesberg and MG have all stated, in multiple interviews, that although they have a list of characters they want, they do not get the final vote on what characters they are allowed to use. Those decisions are up to DC and also the CW. 

 

2. The ratings issue is debatable. After episode 5 of the first season, when Laurel stopped getting featured in every episode, and was instead just featured in occasional episodes, episodes focused on her have usually landed in the bottom third of the ratings/total viewers every season, and only a few times in the top third: "Broken Dolls," in the second season (where Laurel was once again kidnapped/damseled, and Sara came in playing a heroic role), "Midnight City," and "Uprising" this season. A few other episodes - "Home Invasion" and "Birds of Prey, " and her crossover episode on Flash - landed in the middle, but most of her episodes land somewhere near or at the bottom.

 

This season illustrates the point. I'll leave out "The Magician," since that aired against the World Series, which has regularly slammed Arrow every season.  But otherwise, this season had "Canaries," which had the lowest ratings/total viewers for February sweeps, and "Al Sah-him," where the Canary Cry was debuted, and which heavily featured Laurel in trailers, and which was the second least watched episode of the entire season. The only episode with fewer viewers than "Al Sah-him" was "Sara," which also heavily featured Laurel. "Guilty," another Laurel episode, was the least watched episode in November.  

 

None of this is true for Ray, whose big flying suit debut episode, "Nanda Parbat," was the ratings/total viewers highlight for the crucial sweeps month of February. Ray was also featured in the two pre-Flash crossovers ratings highlights, "The Calm" and "The Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak," and in post Flash crossover ratings highlights "The Climb" and "Midnight City." Granted, he was also a big part of "Public Enemy," a ratings/total viewers low - but by that time, Legends was very definitely in development, and if "Public Enemy" wasn't a ratings/total viewers success, it did get some of the better reviews from the season.

 

There's also the new data from Netflix, which states that viewers didn't get hooked on Arrow until the 8th episode. That means that viewers did stop watching during the first 5 episodes - the episodes that strongly featured Laurel - and got hooked only when the show stopped heavily featuring her in every episode.  And no, that can't be blamed on just viewers needing time to warm up to the show - Netflix data also states that viewers got hooked on most shows by episode three.

 

Could all of this be thanks to factors other than Laurel? Absolutely. With Netflix particularly, I expect those horrible voiceovers in the first few episodes played a large role in turning people off the show, because wow were those bad. (I refuse to attach an "in my opinion" there because I consider that objective fact.) But none of this indicates that Laurel is popular enough to carry a spinoff on her own.

 

3. My personal opinion is that the reason Hollywood thinks films/television shows featuring superpowered women do poorly at the box office/in television ratings is simply because there haven't been that many of them - I mean, the original 1990s Flash also didn't do well in the ratings or with critics, but no one said, oooh, we can't do Smallville because the original Flash bombed, and yet for whatever reason, Hollywood seems to be arguing that because the 1990s Birds of Prey failed, a 2015 Birds of Prey will also fail.  Which, in my opinion, is complete bullshit, but that's Hollywood.  And it's not just CW/Time Warner, either - even with Ms. Marvel and Jessica Jones coming, look at how much Disney is NOT bringing us a Black Widow film or a Spider-Woman film or a She-Hulk film. Grumble.  (Sure, we got Agent Carter, but more as a mini series. STILL GRUMBLING.)

 

4. Despite this, Arrow did do a soft test for "Birds of Prey" in the second season, bringing back Helena. It brought in more viewers than the "Suicide Squad" episode, and was the ratings highlight for the end of season two, but it did not do anywhere near as well as the Barry Allen episodes (to be fair, nothing on Arrow seems to do as well as Barry Allen episodes; kid's popular), and apparently wasn't enough to encourage the CW to explore a pilot.

 

5. Between that and the numbers - ratings, total viewers, Netflix data, YouTube numbers, Twitter, Tumblr, DC Entertainment sales - I don't see the CW greenlighting a spinoff featuring Laurel. Even if Supergirl and Agent Carter are both ratings successes this season, encouraging the CW to ok a spinoff featuring a woman at some point in the future, I don't think that woman will be Laurel. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by quarks

[Morrigan2575]

ETA: What Quarks already stated.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

It lived for 13 episodes on the air. I remember it coming and disappearing on the WB, before it became the CW. The show premiered big and then crashed & burned hard. And the WB was considered a female friendly network, so there is no way the CW who is now trying not to be known as the female network is going to easily forget what happened the last time they tried an all-female comics show.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birds_of_Prey_%28TV_series%29

 

Oh, I wasn't talking about the old BoP show, I was talking about the CW, two years ago, contemplating a BoP spinoff with Laurel and Helena. Then they stopped considering it.

 

And now that I think about it, LoT is kind of a mix of BoP and Suicide Squad, now with time travel. So I guess they got the spinoff they wanted.

[Sakura12]

The biggest knock against Laurel getting her own show for me is, they didn't move her to LoT. If she could move over to a BoP spin off, they could've moved her over  to their Time Traveling Justice League. She's not needed on Arrow, they have enough heroes. Instead of her they are choosing to bring back a character they tossed at the garbage last season just for the spin off. There was no reason to bring Sara back other than the fact that they wanted to. 

[Primal Slayer]

Social media wouldn't affect anything, she gets enough love. It may not be as loud as Olicity but it's there. Not to mention the general reception to the character changed greatly from s2 to s3. There were a lot of people who warmed up to her in s3 and is seen as one of the few highlights to s3. I expect it to only go up.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I'm inclined to believe the WB crunched some numbers [and by that I mean they took a hard long look at the Netflix S2 stats], and figured out Sara was more appealing than Laurel.

Edited September 24, 2015 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

The biggest knock against Laurel getting her own show for me is, they didn't move her to LoT. If she could move over to a BoP spin off, they could've moved her over  to their Time Traveling Justice League. She's not needed on Arrow, they have enough heroes. Instead of her they are choosing to bring back a character they tossed at the garbage last season just for the spin off. There was no reason to bring Sara back other than the fact that they wanted to. 

And this is part of the reason why I think this is the last season ARROW will have LL/BC on it. I feel like she may go the way of ROY this season. It might be a pipe dream, but its something I want to believe in. But I am okay betting and living with the prediction that by the end of S4, LL will no longer be a regular on ARROW.

 

I can see her moving to LoT or Flash. But I can see both shows not wanting to take Arrow's throwaways. They had a golden opportunity with LoT, and they took a hard pass at it and brought somebody back from the dead dead dead. Whether or not there were serious considerations of another BoP spinoff, the network seems to have taken a hard pass at that as well since we got LoT & not BoP redux. Frankly, the FLASH is overcrowded as is, and even if they are short on fighters - they seem creatively ok with BA just outrunning everybody or calling in guest stars to help him out, so even there I don't see them wanting her.

[Primal Slayer]

The biggest knock against Laurel getting her own show for me is, they didn't move her to LoT. If she could move over to a BoP spin off, they could've moved her over to their Time Traveling Justice League. She's not needed on Arrow, they have enough heroes. Instead of her they are choosing to bring back a character they tossed at the garbage last season just for the spin off. There was no reason to bring Sara back other than the fact that they wanted to.

It's obvious they want to keep her on Arrow. If they wanted to spin off the character they would most likely only do it for a BoP show if the studio wanted one.

They couldve easily used Thea on LoT as well but they didn't. They don't want Arrow to lose any of their charecters.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Guest]

Nah, Laurel's not going anywhere. But I genuinely think that's more because of contractual reasons than anything else. 

[slayer2]

The biggest knock against Laurel getting her own show for me is, they didn't move her to LoT. If she could move over to a BoP spin off, they could've moved her over  to their Time Traveling Justice League. She's not needed on Arrow, they have enough heroes. Instead of her they are choosing to bring back a character they tossed at the garbage last season just for the spin off. There was no reason to bring Sara back other than the fact that they wanted to. 

 

Speak for yourself, I need her on Arrow. She's the only reason I watch now frankly. Her, Nyssa and the team she's formed with Diggle and Speedy. I don't give a flying fuck about Olicity which is basically half the show, Oliver and Felicity together or separate barely hold my attention and Atom and Sara are spun onto LoT so Laurel is it for me now.

[Primal Slayer]

Nah, Laurel's not going anywhere. But I genuinely think that's more because of contractual reasons than anything else.

Contracts can be broken. They wouldn't be the first show to break one with a major charecter (Charmed/Greys just to name a few)

[dtissagirl]

Nah, Laurel's not going anywhere. But I genuinely think that's more because of contractual reasons than anything else. 

 

Yeah, at this point I think the apocalypse can come and wipe off the universe's existence, and Laurel will stay standing with the cockroaches.

[kismet]

Social media wouldn't affect anything, she gets enough love. It may not be as loud as Olicity but it's there. Not to mention the general reception to the character changed greatly from s2 to s3. There were a lot of people who warmed up to her in s3 and is seen as one of the few highlights to s3. I expect it to only go up.

Social media does effect stuff. There are more articles coming out every day about how companies are using social media to generate statistics & data to make business decisions. And TV is a multi-billion dollar industry, they're are gonna look at social media & its statistics.

 

I don't follow or love KC/LL as much as you do, so I honestly can't say what her level of social media love is. I primarily follow this site and the main entertainment sites (which has nearly nothing about her, a lot of olicity, & promoting the new s4 of guest stars on Arrow). Even on twitter, fanfiction and tumblr it is more apathy or non-interest that I see. But perhaps there is a lot of love and it just hasn't hit the mainstream yet.

 

But we all are entitled to have our own dreams. Mine is an ARROW without LL. Some people's here seems to be a DCTVuniverse without LL at all. You can dream that LL's popularity will only go up. We can all dream out little dreams and hope they turn out in our favor. Only s4 will tell us whose dream is going to come true.

[Primal Slayer]

S3 already proved part of my dream, her popularity amongst fans rose from s2 from everything I've seen.

[tangerine95]

I honestly don't think Laurel is a lot more popular then she was.She's less hated but IMO not even close to fan favorite or someone who can ever get a spinoff.

Just look at the promotion for season 4,she's barely mentioned and when she is its in relation to Sara.And they promote what they know will get people excited.

I think they keep her on Arrow for contract reasons and promises CW made to KC.But there has to be a point where if a character doesn't work or fit on the show they give up on her.They made her BC which was the last chance to make her work and IMO it failed and I think they know it.She could leave like Roy did,people weren't expecting that since he just got his suit and was comic canon but it happened.If she doesn't leave she will be in the background and fight scenes since I don't see them giving her her own team or villain on Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

I don't know if I'd say her popularity rose. Most of the comments I saw were kind of along the lines of, "at least she's got something to do/at least she isn't useless anymore." But, I usually just visit the AV Club and sites of that nature. I did see a lot less, "Ugh. Laurel." comments. But again, I don't know if I'd count that as a rise in popularity. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I honestly don't think Laurel is a lot more popular then she was.She's less hated but IMO not even close to fan favorite or someone who can ever get a spinoff.

Just look at the promotion for season 4,she's barely mentioned and when she is its in relation to Sara.And they promote what they know will get people excited.

I think they keep her on Arrow for contract reasons and promises CW made to KC.But there has to be a point where if a character doesn't work or fit on the show they give up on her.They made her BC which was the last chance to make her work and IMO it failed and I think they know it.She could leave like Roy did,people weren't expecting that since he just got his suit and was comic canon but it happened.If she doesn't leave she will be in the background and fight scenes since I don't see them giving her her own team or villain on Arrow.

So basically all people will be excited about in s4 is Olicity? Because that's been the bulk of the promotion.

[HighwayFlower]

I follow a lot of social media, and I keep hearing people say Laurel has gotten more popular, but I dont see it. I know my real life circle, who has no KC or BC past knowledge still don't like her or understand why she is still there and most promotion and social media I see is people excited for Olicity. Best I hear is that she was "more tolerable" which is hardly love.

[dtissagirl]

A friend of mine [who's way more into social media analysis than I am] made an interesting comment the other day: Black Canary is more popular on social media than Laurel Lance.

[Guest]

Contracts can be broken. They wouldn't be the first show to break one with a major charecter (Charmed/Greys just to name a few)

 

That's true for some shows, especially if the actor actually wants to leave. IMO, KC didn't want to leave and she was promised BC. Hence them sticking to what was promised in the contracts. But the point is moot now so whatever. 

[tangerine95]

So basically all people will be excited about in s4 is Olicity? Because that's been the bulk of the promotion.

Well it does get them the most buzz.Popular ships tend to do that.They're promoting the villain a lot too as well as Sara coming back and the new lighter tone of the show.Both Diggle and Thea got more promotion and attention then Laurel.

[apinknightmare]

So basically all people will be excited about in s4 is Olicity? Because that's been the bulk of the promotion.

 

The bulk of the promotion has been about Olicity, because that's what gets the clicks and the traffic and the buzz. Doesn't mean that's all people are excited about, but it is what gets people talking and clicking.

Edited September 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

The bulk of the promotion has been about Olicity, because that's what gets the clicks and the traffic and the buzz. Doesn't mean that's all people are excited about, but it is what gets people talking/clicking/buzzing about the show.

 

THIS. Facebook posted a great picture of Thea (either yesterday or today, can't remember) and instead of people saying 'Thea looks great, looking forward to her arc!' there were people just saying 'Kill Olicity.' Of course there were pro-Olicity comments there too to counteract that but even those who hate that pairing still talk about it on a photo that doesn't even feature them. Like, whaaaat. Crazy town. They need to work on their apathy. LOL.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

Well it does get them the most buzz.Popular ships tend to do that.They're promoting the villain a lot too as well as Sara coming back and the new lighter tone of the show.Both Diggle and Thea got more promotion and attention then Laurel.

Only major promotion Diggle has gotten is his mask and Thea, her love interest. Other then that, their promotion has been the same as Laurels.

[lemotomato]

A friend of mine [who's way more into social media analysis than I am] made an interesting comment the other day: Black Canary is more popular on social media than Laurel Lance.

I agree with this observation. A good portion of the Arrow audience loves anyone with a mask. Laurel and Thea were arguably the least popular characters before season 3, but as soon as they were turned into fighters and got their costumes/code names, people's opinions changed. Doesn't matter how they got there, just that they're masked heroes on a superhero show makes them more popular.

[Primal Slayer]

THIS. Facebook posted a great picture of Thea (either yesterday or today, can't remember) and instead of people saying 'Thea looks great, looking forward to her arc!' there were people just saying 'Kill Olicity.' Of course there were pro-Olicity comments there too to counteract that but even those who hate that pairing still talk about it on a photo that doesn't even feature them. Like, whaaaat. Crazy town. They need to work on their apathy. LOL.

And Laurel is more discussed here then Felicity.

[apinknightmare]

And Laurel is more discussed here then Felicity.

 

And this website isn't affiliated with the network. 

[Primal Slayer]

I agree with this observation. A good portion of the Arrow audience loves anyone with a mask. Laurel and Thea were arguably the least popular characters before season 3, but as soon as they were turned into fighters and got their costumes/code names, people's opinions changed. Doesn't matter how they got there, just that they're masked heroes on a superhero show makes them more popular.

A mask doesn't solve everything, if the charecters didn't change at all then the mask is useless and the audience wouldn't care.

[Guest]

And Laurel is more discussed here then Felicity.

 

I know. And it's the same comments over and over again. I actually thought the mods were against repetitiveness though, which is weird. 

[tangerine95]

Only major promotion Diggle has gotten is his mask and Thea, her love interest. Other then that, their promotion has been the same as Laurels.

Thea has her arc of being crazy after the LP besides the LI and Digg also has HIVE and his conflict with Oliver.Laurel besides bringing Sara back is getting a bike.

Edited September 24, 2015 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

Thea has her arc of being crazy after the LP besides the LI and Digg also has HIVE and his conflict with Oliver.Laurel besides bringing Sara back is getting a bike.

And they also said Laurel will be learning how to handle being a lawyer and vigilanti.

And this website isn't affiliated with the network.

Oh does that matter? Fb is basically a major forum in itself. Every forum is going to produce varying responses.

[statsgirl]

And this is part of the reason why I think this is the last season ARROW will have LL/BC on it. I feel like she may go the way of ROY this season.

I think she will stay but not for contractual reasons. They've got Laurel in a good place right now -- she's got her place on the Team and a purpose in the show -- and a number of viewers like her, either for KC/LL or for her role as the Black Canary.

 

I think the current LL/BC is a character KC is more comfortable playing than the hot/cold one of previous seasons.  She's got a purpose now and her comments about being glad that Laurel isn't a love interest now show it.

 

I think s4 Laurel will appeal to a number of people, from those who like masks and stunts to people who don't like the drama and character development the show does (someone posted at TVLine about Diggle's emotional arc that emotions ruined Arrow).  She's not popular enough to anchor her own spin-off but there's no reason to take her off Arrow.

Edited September 24, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

Oh does that matter? Fb is basically a major forum in itself. Every forum is going to produce varying responses.

 

The comment you responded to was about how people on the network's Facebook site were talking about Olicity on a non-Olicity post and how if those people hate Olicity so much, they should tone down their hatred. Because that's a network site, people from the network see it, and they know what the hot button topics are. Olicity is getting people talking. People here don't need to be apathetic, because no one from the network is seeing this (apart from an intern or two who might possibly troll sites to gauge the audience's temperature). So yes, in the context of the conversation you were replying to, it matters.

[tangerine95]

And they also said Laurel will be learning how to handle being a lawyer and vigilanti.

That's like the theme of the season.Everyone will be balancing their day job with their night job.I thought they should have focused more on that in season 3 with Laurel,they ignored that she's ADA. But so far they're not mentioning specific storylines like Oliver becoming mayor or Felicity becoming a CEO and balancing being heroes with that or even hiring guest stars for her to work with for that storyline like they did in season 2 when she became ADA so I'm kinda doubting how much focus that will actually get.

[slayer2]

 

I think they keep her on Arrow for contract reasons and promises CW made to KC.But there has to be a point where if a character doesn't work or fit on the show they give up on her.

 

Woe is me, more of this talk. Her character seemed to fit in just fine last season, all the Diggle, Laurel, Roy, Felicity and eventually Speedy group work was one of the highlights of the show for a lot of people myself included especially amidst the seemingly unending, depressing theme. Of course that isn't obvious on this site because a lot of people on this site despise Laurel irrespective of what she does or doesn't do.

 

Buuuuuut in fact there are many other factions and fanbases as has been mentioned several times and many of those factions and fanbases have been enjoying the teamwork and symbiotic relationship with Diggle (not sure his codename yet) Black Canary, Old Speedy, New Speedy and Watchtower Felicity. Those were some of the most winning moments of the show last season for many fans. As always mileage varies but again it's important to note that opinions on this board are not the be all and end all of the Arrow fanbase and certainly not entirely indicative of what the greater viewers (people who unlike us don't spend hours on message boards) think or want.

 

ETA I give special points for Laurel's growing friendship with Nyssa which I fucking adored and her friendship with Felicity that was one of the only things that made that character tolerable for me.

Edited September 24, 2015 by slayer2

[kismet]

And Laurel is more discussed here then Felicity.

Because she is a more problematic character. These pages are not filled with love & postivity. Most of the posts are about how to fix her or make her relevant. The thread even has its own warning label. I wouldn't consider people talking more about her here as a positive thing.

Don't confuse talking a lot about somebody an increase in popularity if the bulk of it is apathetic; at least shes not useless, she finally got her mask or just accepting her presence cuz she's there for reasons.

And this has nothing to do with felicity. But now that you mention it the writers do mention her more on their own in interviews. She has gotten more crossovers and seems to be included more spontaneously on mainstream entertainment sites. However, in the end it shouldn't be a comparison. And I'd be careful because the numbers when it comes to quantitative data like screen time & other measurable facts are not in LLs favor.

[Primal Slayer]

1. Berlanti, Kriesberg and MG have all stated, in multiple interviews, that although they have a list of characters they want, they do not get the final vote on what characters they are allowed to use. Those decisions are up to DC and also the CW. 

 

2. The ratings issue is debatable. After episode 5 of the first season, when Laurel stopped getting featured in every episode, and was instead just featured in occasional episodes, episodes focused on her have usually landed in the bottom third of the ratings/total viewers every season, and only a few times in the top third: "Broken Dolls," in the second season (where Laurel was once again kidnapped/damseled, and Sara came in playing a heroic role), "Midnight City," and "Uprising" this season. A few other episodes - "Home Invasion" and "Birds of Prey, " and her crossover episode on Flash - landed in the middle, but most of her episodes land somewhere near or at the bottom.

 

This season illustrates the point. I'll leave out "The Magician," since that aired against the World Series, which has regularly slammed Arrow every season.  But otherwise, this season had "Canaries," which had the lowest ratings/total viewers for February sweeps, and "Al Sah-him," where the Canary Cry was debuted, and which heavily featured Laurel in trailers, and which was the second least watched episode of the entire season. The only episode with fewer viewers than "Al Sah-him" was "Sara," which also heavily featured Laurel. "Guilty," another Laurel episode, was the least watched episode in November.  

 

None of this is true for Ray, whose big flying suit debut episode, "Nanda Parbat," was the ratings/total viewers highlight for the crucial sweeps month of February. Ray was also featured in the two pre-Flash crossovers ratings highlights, "The Calm" and "The Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak," and in post Flash crossover ratings highlights "The Climb" and "Midnight City." Granted, he was also a big part of "Public Enemy," a ratings/total viewers low - but by that time, Legends was very definitely in development, and if "Public Enemy" wasn't a ratings/total viewers success, it did get some of the better reviews from the season.

 

There's also the new data from Netflix, which states that viewers didn't get hooked on Arrow until the 8th episode. That means that viewers did stop watching during the first 5 episodes - the episodes that strongly featured Laurel - and got hooked only when the show stopped heavily featuring her in every episode.  And no, that can't be blamed on just viewers needing time to warm up to the show - Netflix data also states that viewers got hooked on most shows by episode three.

 

Could all of this be thanks to factors other than Laurel? Absolutely. With Netflix particularly, I expect those horrible voiceovers in the first few episodes played a large role in turning people off the show, because wow were those bad. (I refuse to attach an "in my opinion" there because I consider that objective fact.) But none of this indicates that Laurel is popular enough to carry a spinoff on her own.

 

3. My personal opinion is that the reason Hollywood thinks films/television shows featuring superpowered women do poorly at the box office/in television ratings is simply because there haven't been that many of them - I mean, the original 1990s Flash also didn't do well in the ratings or with critics, but no one said, oooh, we can't do Smallville because the original Flash bombed, and yet for whatever reason, Hollywood seems to be arguing that because the 1990s Birds of Prey failed, a 2015 Birds of Prey will also fail.  Which, in my opinion, is complete bullshit, but that's Hollywood.  And it's not just CW/Time Warner, either - even with Ms. Marvel and Jessica Jones coming, look at how much Disney is NOT bringing us a Black Widow film or a Spider-Woman film or a She-Hulk film. Grumble.  (Sure, we got Agent Carter, but more as a mini series. STILL GRUMBLING.)

 

4. Despite this, Arrow did do a soft test for "Birds of Prey" in the second season, bringing back Helena. It brought in more viewers than the "Suicide Squad" episode, and was the ratings highlight for the end of season two, but it did not do anywhere near as well as the Barry Allen episodes (to be fair, nothing on Arrow seems to do as well as Barry Allen episodes; kid's popular), and apparently wasn't enough to encourage the CW to explore a pilot.

 

5. Between that and the numbers - ratings, total viewers, Netflix data, YouTube numbers, Twitter, Tumblr, DC Entertainment sales - I don't see the CW greenlighting a spinoff featuring Laurel. Even if Supergirl and Agent Carter are both ratings successes this season, encouraging the CW to ok a spinoff featuring a woman at some point in the future, I don't think that woman will be Laurel. 

 

They also stated that it is a give/take. They want to use certain characters, DC wants them to use certain characters. They wanted Ted Kord, DC compromised on letting them use Ray Palmer. They are not forced characters upon them.

 

While her episodes are more in the middle for ratings, a Birds of Prey spin off would not be the Laurel Lance show just as The ATOM appearing in LoT does not make it the ATOM show. She would be joined by other characters and it would be an ensemble show. WB wasn't interested in a Birds of Prey spin off as much as they were a Flash show. We heard that bringing in Barry Allen was meant to test the waters and after they liked his appearance on the show, they ordered the pilot. As the ratings showed for Birds of Prey, the audience obviously knows the group and with the right writers it could be successful. Would people be interested in it featuring Laurel? Maybe, maybe not. Only way to find out is to make it. Even though Netflix showed that it took viewers 8 episodes to get hooked, it was not the same way for live viewing as those episodes were some of the highest rated of the season.

 

Hollywood is sexiest in general. Majority of the female superhero movies made were badly written and half assed but some of the highest grossing films nowadays are females. Even though Birds of Prey failed, WB/CW  still had highly rated female shows that were better written and produced.

Because she is a more problematic character. These pages are not filled with love & postivity. Most of the posts are about how to fix her or make her relevant. The thread even has its own warning label. I wouldn't consider people talking more about her here as a positive thing.

Don't confuse talking a lot about somebody an increase in popularity if the bulk of it is apathetic; at least shes not useless, she finally got her mask or just accepting her presence cuz she's there for reasons.

And this has nothing to do with felicity. But now that you mention it the writers do mention her more on their own in interviews. She has gotten more crossovers and seems to be included more spontaneously on mainstream entertainment sites. However, in the end it shouldn't be a comparison. And I'd be careful because the numbers when it comes to quantitative data like screen time & other measurable facts are not in LLs favor.

I know exactly what this thread is 99% filled with and don't confuse it with her being popular. But just as everyone likes to bitch about Olicity nowadays, I was saying the same is for Laurel here. Majority of the people here don't like her but they don't ignore her. I know Felicity is more popular and I have no problem with that.

[dtissagirl]

I know exactly what this thread is 99% filled with and don't confuse it with her being popular. But just as everyone likes to bitch about Olicity nowadays, I was saying the same is for Laurel here. Majority of the people here don't like her but they don't ignore her.

We were sort of ignoring her, though. This thread hadn't been this busy in months.

Edited September 25, 2015 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

I know exactly what this thread is 99% filled with and don't confuse it with her being popular. But just as everyone likes to bitch about Olicity nowadays, I was saying the same is for Laurel here. Majority of the people here don't like her but they don't ignore her. I know Felicity is more popular and I have no problem with that.

Yes, we do not ignore her on this thread. And I never said we ignored her. I do not because I still have some residual desire to have her be a character I don't dislike or wish was not off the show (even though I have to fight that last feeling a lot). I'm gradually moving towards apathy though because for me the writers have given me nothing to look forward to with happy anticipation.

 

Everyone is free to have their opinions.... but it bothers me when you speak in generalities. I try to be fair and only speak about what I think or has factual basis. I try not to speak for others. I do not speak for everyone or make broad statements that are not my speculation or personal thoughts. Not everyone likes to bitch about Olicity, there is no evidence to prove that and evidence that contradicts it. There are some people that do and there are some that are raving about Olicity. Everyone is a big group and its just not possible to capture all of their opinions in any one post or analysis. One can't even make the statement that everyone here that posts likes ARROW, there are some here that have said they don't like ARROW.

 

The fandom is a big place and there should be room for all of us. It doesn't need to be a comparison between the two. FS & LL can exist in a world and not have their popularity be based or dependent upon the other. You are the one that brought FS into the conversation. I was simply stating that LL's popularity on this thread or anywhere really is about her and not FS.

[Primal Slayer]

I just happen to speak in generalities, don't mean for it to come off as literally everyone, so I'll try to put more I's in my statements. And I agree that FS&LL can both exist, but comparisons will be brought up time to time especially when she is half of Olicity. I am fine with it. It isn't something deep that I bother to go deep into.

We were sort of ignoring her, though. This thread hadn't been this busy in months.

Then I am glad I can revive it lol.

[statsgirl]

ETA I give special points for Laurel's growing friendship with Nyssa which I fucking adored and her friendship with Felicity that was one of the only things that made that character tolerable for me.

Maybe that was because they turned Felicity into someone almost unrecognizable around Laurel, just as she was pod-Felicity for Ray.

 

It's often hard to get a read on MG but he certainly was surprised at the reaction to Felicity's "light" speech to Laurel.

 

I don't want Laurel and Felicity to be fighting or bitchy to each other but even less do I want Felicity to become a doormat around Laurel. There is a way to write their relationship in a manner respectful to both characters.

[slayer2]

Maybe that was because they turned Felicity into someone almost unrecognizable around Laurel, just as she was pod-Felicity for Ray.

It's often hard to get a read on MG but he certainly was surprised at the reaction to Felicity's "light" speech to Laurel.

I don't want Laurel and Felicity to be fighting or bitchy to each other but even less do I want Felicity to become a doormat around Laurel. There is a way to write their relationship in a manner respectful to both characters.

And they're doing that IMO. To my mind the only way that anti-Laurel, pro-Felicity fans are "happy" with Laurel is when Laurel is kissing Felicity's ass. Or when anyone is frankly. That doesn't do it for me. That's not to say that pro-Felicity, anti-Laurel is mutually exclusive, hell I used to like both of them. All I know is I'm happy Laurel is finally incorporated into the group, it's happened wonderfully and quite organically in Oliver's absence and Laurel and Felicity's friendship has grown quite the same way.

Mileage always varies but I've learned to take a lot of opinions on Laurel with a grain of salt when the bashing towards her and KC has become so intense that it makes me near physically ill. KC and EBR seem to be having a great time together, if only the fans could embrace it like they are. Especially since there are far more offensive things on this show, SA being a wonderfully horrid example.

Edited September 25, 2015 by slayer2

[statsgirl]

3x02:  Felicity takes orders from Laurel in the lair; Laurel doesn't thank her.

 

3x03:  Felicity takes time out of her very busy new job to find information for Laurel on someone Laurel wants to beat up; information Laurel could easily have found out herself as an ADA;

 

3x11:  Felicity tells Laurel not to hang up the black leather because the city needs her;

 

3x12:  Felicity tells Laurel that she has a light inside her that Sara never had (MG gets hate mail);

 

3x20:  Felicity goes to Laurel to tell her that Oliver isn't coming back.

 

3x21:  Felicity supports helping Nyssa against Oliver and the LoA when Laurel asks (although I think that was the right thing to do);

 

The only ass kissing I saw in s3 was from Felicity to Laurel.  Added on to their scenes from the first two seasons when Felicity complimented Laurel and Laurel acted like she was the hired help, it was a massive fail for me.

[Primal Slayer]

I didn't see Felicity as kissing Laurels ass in any way in Season 3. 3x02 she is in the lair with Felicity as Oliver is going after the suspected killer, her telling Felicity to put Oliver on speaker and saying she needs to see what is happening, wasn't anything that made me think she was ordering Felicity around. 

 

Rest of the time Felicity was supporting Laurel which is fine in my eyes. They started off as pure associates at best but grew to be friends over the year. Felicity surely wasn't jumping over backwards for her.

[slayer2]

I didn't see Felicity as kissing Laurels ass in any way in Season 3. 3x02 she is in the lair with Felicity as Oliver is going after the suspected killer, her telling Felicity to put Oliver on speaker and saying she needs to see what is happening, wasn't anything that made me think she was ordering Felicity around.

Rest of the time Felicity was supporting Laurel which is fine in my eyes. They started off as pure associates at best but grew to be friends over the year. Felicity surely wasn't jumping over backwards for her.

Agreed. I love to see Laurel's relationships strengthened on the show. KC has great friend chemistry with EBR and whomever plays Nyssa and her sisterly bond with Thea has always held a special place in my heart even when Thea irritated me.

I don't really want to see Laurel with a love interest again just yet because I'm having fun just watching her come into her own. Super-excited to see her find out Sara is alive again as well, their sisterly bond works on so many levels.

Most of all I think I'm hyped to see Laurel, Diggle and them working together as a crew manning the streets while Olicity is off. I know it probably won't last more than the first few minutes of the show but I'm still excited for it.

[EmilyBettFan]

Social media wouldn't affect anything, she gets enough love. It may not be as loud as Olicity but it's there. Not to mention the general reception to the character changed greatly from s2 to s3. There were a lot of people who warmed up to her in s3 and is seen as one of the few highlights to s3. I expect it to only go up.

Why are you comparing one character to a couple?

Felicity is her own character or are you just afraid to say Felicity gets more love than Laurel? Just wondering.

[EmilyBettFan]

3x02: Felicity takes orders from Laurel in the lair; Laurel doesn't thank her.

3x03: Felicity takes time out of her very busy new job to find information for Laurel on someone Laurel wants to beat up; information Laurel could easily have found out herself as an ADA;

3x11: Felicity tells Laurel not to hang up the black leather because the city needs her;

3x12: Felicity tells Laurel that she has a light inside her that Sara never had (MG gets hate mail);

3x20: Felicity goes to Laurel to tell her that Oliver isn't coming back.

3x21: Felicity supports helping Nyssa against Oliver and the LoA when Laurel asks (although I think that was the right thing to do);

The only ass kissing I saw in s3 was from Felicity to Laurel. Added on to their scenes from the first two seasons when Felicity complimented Laurel and Laurel acted like she was the hired help, it was a massive fail for me.

yup all of this. The only ass kissing was coming from Felicity trying to prop up Laurel. Just like she was on prop duty for Ray. She really does work hard that Felicity.

I'm surprised some people don't see this because they do this all the time on shows. Get one of the most popular characters to be all nice to the new kid or the one who gets the bad press on shows. It's practically tv knowledge for anyone who watches a few of these shows. They happen everywhere almost.

[Hipkarma]

All I know is I can barely watch her scenes because every time she's on screen she comes off snobby and entitled to everything.

Laurel Lance as portrayed by Katie Cassidy is the reason I stopped watching Arrow. I only YT LL free scenes these days. It is that simple.

[Primal Slayer]

Why are you comparing one character to a couple?

Felicity is her own character or are you just afraid to say Felicity gets more love than Laurel? Just wondering.

What's there to be afraid of? I know Olicity/Felicity are more popular. Never had a problem admitting it.