Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[foreverevolving]

I've always wondered why the how didn't go a-b-c order from the get go, minus SA name as his is the title character and will naturally go first no matter what letter his last name started at.

 

Also The West Wing had a billing change i think, the show was supposed to focus on Sam and Josh I believe, but they ended up focusing on president Bartlett. but I think TWW had a abc billing order. I'm pretty sure ER didn't do the ABC order, because Noah Wyle was billed 3rd in early seasons before Clooney left, while Eriq La-Salle was always last.

[dtissagirl]

Generally, each actor negotiates their billing [position in the credits] individually upon contract, so it's not so much the show that decides how to go about the credit order, and more like the producers having to cater to actors' managers and agents trying to get them as high as possible in the list, or getting them into the differentiated last position. Even the language used is negotiated -- if the credit uses "and" or "and Actor Name as Character Name".

 

Guest and recurring stars also negotiate their billing, so sometimes a recurring actor will appears with an "also starring" attached to their name, and  "special guest star" vs. "guest star" is also about ~prestige position. This is all contract language. Because Hollywood is ridiculous.

[statsgirl]

Isn't "and" the really prestigious position other than the first name in the credits?  Even if the big name actor doesn't appear as much as others, they'll pull the "and X" position. Right now, the only person in the cast with that kind of clout may be John Barrowman.

 

Given KC's agent and pr person, she'll probably stay in second position as long as she's a regular on the show. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by statsgirl

[tangerine95]

 

Given KC's agent and pr person, she'll probably say in second position as long as she's a regular on the show. 

I think so too. It's really unfair to EBR though.She does the job and has the screentime of the female lead plus all the time in crossovers she gets.It's stupid to keep her fifth billed after season 3. 

[Sakura12]

I think KC's PR person should start focusing on prepping her for interviews rather then worrying about her billing spot on the credits. 

[steeledwithakiss]

Dawson's Creek made a big change between S1 and S2. In S1 It was James Van Der Beek, Michelle Williams, Joshua Jackson then Katie Holmes and in S2 Katie Holmes took Michelle Williams' place and got 2nd billing, making Michelle third. I'm not sure what they were planning before but it seemed like Joey was a hit and they decided to focus on the D/J lovestory. So yeah it happens even without having to kill a character. They basically changed the leading lady.

Edited August 10, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[wingster55]

^ That's a strange example as Joey always was the leading lady..they just adjusted it to what it really was.

A better example was when in Smallville they changed the order in s7 I think to reflect the actual importance of characters (Lex before Lana, Chloe before Lois)

[steeledwithakiss]

I think Jen was supposed be much more important. I always got the feeling they wanted to keep the love triangle longer (a Some kind of Wonderful series) but then changed their mind and it showed because in s2 they didn't really know what to do with Jen and put her in an alcohol fueled downward spiral.

 

Anyways, in Arrow I don't think they'll ever change the billing. KC is still the biggest name.

Edited August 11, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[kismet]

There is a really good book that was recommended here (sorry forgot who) that explains some of the writer's room drama behind "Dawson's Creek. Billion-Dollar Kiss: The Kiss That Saved Dawson's Creek and Other Adventures in TV Writing" by Jeffrey Stepakoff. If people are really interested in it.

 

But I think its a similar scenario at least casting wise between KC & EBR. Michelle Williams was the bigger name going into the DC s1 premiere, whereas KH was an unknown. I think KH even delayed shooting or prep to complete her High School drama production (I vaguely remember reading that in an article). They definitely had bigger plans for Jen, that were changed for various on-screen & off-screen reasons. Through no fault of her own, it seemed the story moved away from MW & the original plan. I think something similar is happening to KC, where the story is moving away from LL/BC. Difference is at least they were still able to make Jen relevant whereas LL seems to be less relevant as the seasons go by.

 

West Wing - They had alphabetical listings for actor credits with music & title pics and some special "ands/withs" wordage at the end for certain stars like Martin Sheen. It made sense for that show as it was truly an ensemble with talented actors of equal caliber. They then had a second billing that ran under the first scenes of the episode for the recurring/supporting cast (often where you saw the secretaries/aides). For example Janel Moloney went from second billing in s1 to main credits in s2, after her role was expanded because of her reception in s1. She was never supposed to have as big of a role or be a future LI but the chemistry was just too good with Bradley Whitford.

Edited August 11, 2015 by kismet

[Chaser]

Is Katie Cassidy still the bigger name? At the start I would say for sure but Stephen Amell has eclipsed that and most mainstream media sources refer to Emily as the female lead. Though no one on Arrow seems to get a lot of attention.

The only time I see Katie Cassidy is in The Daily Mail.

[EmilyBettFan]

^ So true. I had no idea who she was. Small parts in different things doesn't make you big. People act like she was an A list actress like Witherspoon or Aniston.

I watched Taken and I could barely remember that she was the friend to the daughter. Or When A Stranger Calls she was a bitchy girl in that. Could barely remember. She seems to play the same part. Kind of like Kristen Stewart.

Whereas Emily Bett Rickards gets cast in Brooklyn and it's already getting Oscar buzz for the film.

The screen time on Arrow reflects that it's OG3 all the way.

[apinknightmare]

Whereas Emily Bett Rickards gets cast in Brooklyn and it's already getting Oscar buzz for the film.

 

She has an incredibly small part in that film, though (if it's anything like the book). No offense to EBR, I love her, but if there's buzz for that film, it likely doesn't have much to do with her.

[EmilyBettFan]

I didn't mean because of her. Just as a whole. I mean she's part of a film with Oscar buzz.

[steeledwithakiss]

I didn't really know KC either, remembered her a little from a few episodes I saw of Melrose Place and it's true I think SA totally eclipsed her now but she's still a Cassidy and people who don't watch Arrow probably have no idea who EBR is.

[BkWurm1]

So the other day I figured out where the fingerless gloves came from.  Maybe everyone else always knew but I only figured it out when I was watching an old episode I had on the DVR of Young Justice.  Black Canary came on screen and I noticed she seemed to have fingerless gloves too BUT then I realized they weren't gloves at all.  She had her hands wrapped like a boxer to protect them from injury. 

 

This link actually takes you to a how to on wrapping your hands.  Scroll down to the last picture and you will see a variation of what Laurel should be wearing.  . 

http://www.ringside.com/blog/boxing-tips-how-to-wrap-your-hands-the-right-way/

 

Some how the wrist hand wrap guard things were mistranslated into Laurel's costume as fingerless gloves which do NOTHING to protect her hands.  I mean, the gloves are made out of mesh. 

Edited August 22, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

But didn't Katie Cassidy say in that interview that she wanted fingerless gloves so that we could see that Laurel's nail polish matched her lipstick as a way of making the Black Canary more feminine?

[Starfish35]

I don't remember that, although I do remember something about her choosing the dark lipstick. It could be though.

Someone did say recently that the mesh gloves were supposed to be a nod to the fishnets though, so yeah. Missing the point. Good catch BkWurm1!

[lemotomato]

KC talks about her contributions to the design of the new BC costume/look in this article with E!

 

"It was so cool. I love the creative process. Not just being an actor and here is the dialogue and saying the lines," Cassidy says of working with the wardrobe department. "I like collaborating with people and having an opinion and getting to put my touch on it. So when it came to the costume, I suggested a couple of things. I give credit to our insanely talented hair (Paul Edward) makeup, (Danielle Fowler) and wardrobe (Maya Mani) team for creating the look. I just made a few suggestions."

Some of her tweaks? Some lace and fishnet ("Because the Black Canary wore fishnets," Cassidy explains) fabric added throughout the costume, including the bodysuit underneath the jacket and the fingerless gloves.

"So it's a bit more feminine, because the suit itself it's sexy, but it is a bit modern. And I love it. That's what I wanted," she tells us. "So I was like, Let's see where we can put a little bit of feminine touches. Because it's a very strong suit, how can we make this a little bit more feminine?"

Re: makeup and hair

And Cassidy reveals she was even more involved when it came to the Black Canary's hair and make-up. Arrow tested out five looks, the first of which "they let me do whatever I wanted.

I wanted a dark red lip and dark red nail color. I like the fact that it's dark; I also think it's more feminine. And I want the nail to match the lip," she says, adding that she asked them not to black out her eyes, which almost all of the other heroes on the show do.

As for Laurel's sleeker, platinum blonde wig, Cassidy explains, "I begged them, ‘Please don't make me wear a curly blonde wig.' Because the Canary had that and I just wanted Laurel to be more sharp and modern. Sexy, but smart. Just strong."

Edited August 22, 2015 by lemotomato

[Starfish35]

Ok, so she wanted the lipstick and nails to match, and she wanted the mesh gloves as a nod to the fishnets. But she doesn't say that she wanted the gloves to be fingerless so you can see how her lipstick and nails match.

*shrug* I don't know. Maybe that's splitting hairs. I mean, I don't like her look. That's no secret. And most of what I hate about that costume is stuff that KC said she had a direct hand in. But...I'm not quite seeing the direct line between the costume having fingerless gloves and KC making the gloves fingerless in order to show off how her nails and lip matched. Especially since if you go to Google and do an image search for Black Canary, there are quite a few of BC with a fingerless glove look. Not all of course. Sometimes she doesn't wear anything on her hands, and sometimes she wears full gloves. But the fingerless glove look is not uncommon.

The difference is what BkWurm1 has pointed out. If you take a closer look, pretty much all of those "fingerless glove" looks are actually some type of hand protection. Laurel's mesh gloves, on the other hand, provide no hand protection whatsoever, and are merely there for the (dubious) aesthetic value.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Starfish35

[Smoaking Reporter]

Unpopular opinion: I'm very excited about Laurel getting a bike. I'm thinking maybe Nyssa or Sara (after they deal with the consequences of her resurrection) teaches her how to ride it. I'm satisfied with them developing her more into her comic book counterpart as long as it makes sense & not just given to her in a horrible way/just because comics (canary cry). So hopefully we get a good explanation/reason for her getting and knowing how to drive a motorcycle.

I will say I'm not happy with WM's "no learning curve" comment. She's not the full on badass Black Canary yet. She hasn't had that much training so I would like to see her training with different professionals to make me believe that she could take on assassins with no problem. I would like to see her being trained in hand to hand combat. As a fan I was disappointed that they had her fighting like two or three assassins at the same time with only like one or two months worth of training from Nyssa. It was ridiculous. I would buy her being able to fight assassins like that towards the beginning of S5 as long as they show evidence of her training consistently. I loved the scene where she fought the guy in the finale because it was more believable with her amount of training.

Regarding the costume, I love everything except the lipstick & the fingerless gloves. I HATE the lipstick. The jacket is my favorite part.

[Starfish35]

I've actually just been thinking about this, and was thinking about posting a question about how would you fix the the outfit? I've been paging through BC images on Google trying to figure out how to fix it.

For me, here's my ideas. First priority would be to lose most of the buckles. Get rid of the garter belt. Change the the boots to something with a running sole, and with some type of insets across the front rather than all the buckles and straps. Full gloves, rather than those pointless mesh things. Maybe put in some insets across the back of the hands, like what's on the jacket. If they need a callback to the fishnets, put a fishnet texturing into the fabric of the black pants. But the jacket is fine, I don't know that I'd change anything about that. Maybe lengthen it just a little once the garter belt is gone.

I would maybe change the wig to something darker blonde and with bangs, to differentiate it from Sara's. And sorry, KC, but I would black out the eyes.

As far as the bike goes... I don't know. It's going to depend on how it's done. I do know I'd rather Laurel have her own bike than to be sharing one with Oliver like Sara did. I just really don't want to see Oliver and Laurel on a bike together.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Sara had her own bike, she left on it when she went back to LOA to get their help with Slade's army. They also cut a scene of Felicity riding on the back of Sara's bike when they went to confront the clockmaker guy. 

 

What's funny to me is, they now have to give everything to Laurel that they already gave to Sara. While Sara's made sense within her narrative, Laurel needs a hundred excuses and reasons as to why she's getting anything. Mostly them just going with "because comics" instead of writing a story on their own show. Who cares if it makes sense or if it's earned she's Dinah Lance, the Black Canary so she just gets stuff. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

It makes sense to me that she'd have a bike. Roy had one as well, didn't he? I mean, how else do they get to crime scenes from a central location?

I agree that she needs to black out her eyes and ditch the dark lipstick. It looks awful, IMO. And I think the outfit would be fine without the buckles. The buckles seem like a disaster waiting to get snagged, and she doesn't need them to hold whatever smaller weapons she's trained with, because there aren't any.

[AyChihuahua]

Change the wig, makeup, and mask, leave the jacket and maybe undershirt, simplify everything below the waist. Minimize buckles. Full gloves.

[dtissagirl]

Training in itself is not motivation, nor it's character development. I think the writers are actually aware that putting training scenes onscreen demand a secondary purpose. Sometimes it's fluff/beefcake because This is The CW, but that works for half naked men. With women it gets into murky territory. Twice now Arrow had elaborate training scenes that were used to contrast with Felicity's lack of training -- once in 214, once in 305. That's also a pretty smart way to do it. And sometimes there's actual storyline purposes, like when Oliver was training Roy. And that's the key here -- they need to find a secondary purpose for Laurel to have training scenes.

 

Or, alternately, her training scenes need to contain all of the exposition dialog that the villain of the week demand. Which is how they did it for a super long stretch in the second half of S1, and first half of S2.

Edited August 23, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Starfish35]

And I think the outfit would be fine without the buckles. The buckles seem like a disaster waiting to get snagged, and she doesn't need them to hold whatever smaller weapons she's trained with, because there aren't any.

Yeah, the only buckle should be on the belt - the rest need to go IMO.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

I find the buckles hilarious, but I think they're there to literally distract the audience. Without them, it would be even more obvious that the stunt double has a completely different body type from KC.

[Chaser]

Simplifying the design would help the most. Keep the boots, lose the buckles. They won't lose the wig, so shorten it and thin it out because right now it just hangs in her face. Blacken the eyes and go neutral on the lipstick so the mask is the coal point. The eyes open and the dark lipstick are actually highlighting her features. Ditch the fingerless gloves for full gloves. I would smooth out the jacket too just because I hate the rouching. Overall, give it a sleek bodysuit look.

I'd rather she have her own mode of transportation then buddy with Oliver or Diggle. A motorcycle makes the most sense in terms of vehicle. It's hard to master a motorcycle so it's not going to make any sense for her to suddenly be proficient. Its going to go in the way of her name and training, a few throwaway lines and that's it. I don't care to watch her learn so it's whatever for me. Question tho, shouldn't Thea and Diggle get a bike to?

Simplifying the design would help the most. Keep the boots, lose the buckles. They won't lose the wig, so shorten it and thin it out because right now it just hangs in her face. Blacken the eyes and go neutral on the lipstick so the mask is the focal point. The eyes open and the dark lipstick are actually highlighting her features. Ditch the fingerless gloves for full gloves. I would smooth out the jacket too just because I hate the rouching. Overall, give it a sleek bodysuit look.

I'd rather she have her own mode of transportation then buddy with Oliver or Diggle. A motorcycle makes the most sense in terms of vehicle. It's hard to master a motorcycle so it's not going to make any sense for her to suddenly be proficient. Its going to go in the way of her name and training, a few throwaway lines and that's it. I don't care to watch her learn so it's whatever for me. Question tho, shouldn't Thea and Diggle get a bike to?

I meant to edit and I quoted myself. Lol

Damn mobile

[Smoaking Reporter]

It makes sense to me that she'd have a bike. Roy had one as well, didn't he? I mean, how else do they get to crime scenes from a central location?

I agree that she needs to black out her eyes and ditch the dark lipstick. It looks awful, IMO. And I think the outfit would be fine without the buckles. The buckles seem like a disaster waiting to get snagged, and she doesn't need them to hold whatever smaller weapons she's trained with, because there aren't any.

Agree. It does make sense for her to have a bike unless they plan on using the black van all the time which I doubt b/c they may all need to be at different locations at once. So yeah the bike makes sense.

How could I forget about the buckles? Maybe because it's pretty obvious they need to go. I also like the mask & think they should go with a darker shade of blonde for the wig. Is the canary cry device apart of the custome? if so that needs to go too. It's awful but it gives her an advantage while fighting.

[Starfish35]

When I say a wig with bangs I'm thinking of something like this:

http://skinrich.info/long-blonde-hair-bangs-wig.html/long-blonde-hair-with-bangs-wig-style-long-straight-blonde-wig-100-human-remy-hair-with-full-bang

Or maybe this:

http://skinrich.info/long-blonde-hair-bangs-wig.html/long-blonde-hair-with-bangs-wig-full-lace-wig-long-straight-blonde-wig-with-bang-100-remy-human-hair

Maybe in a shade like this:

http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1eRNPHVXXXXcHXpXXq6xXFXXXj/1PC-Stylish-Synthetic-wigs-Lace-Hair-Fluffy-Straight-Wigs-with-bangs-Hair-glueless-full-lace-wig.jpg

I'm not a huge fan of the platinum blonde wig.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

It makes no sense to put a long blonde wig on someone with long blonde hair. Either ditch the wig, get KC back to brunette or use a short dark wig.

I hate trying to apply logic.

Reminds me of CL making fun of the stupidity of the wig in that interview. Lol

[Starfish35]

No, I agree with that. Laurel should have stayed a brunette.

[statsgirl]

Long flowing hair is bad enough for fighting. A long-haired wig in your own hair colour is just stupid.

 

I think Laurel should have her own motorcylce because it looks better and it means she's not dependent on the van to get her places. And while I'm good with her learning more fighting, I don't want to see it on-screen because we've had those arcs with Roy and probably Thea next season, and it's going to be KC's stunt double and then it will be just awkward.  I wouldn't mind hearing that she got back from visiting Nyssa who was working with her on some more moves.  Or have someone mention that Thea and Laurel were sparring with each other since they were both trained by LoA fighters.

 

While I'm glad the show doesn't follow comic book canon religiously, I think they sometimes, with some characters, have a problem with what to keep and what to adapt.

I'm not a fan of the sleevelessness for Oliver because hello? protection. 

Maybe that's why Diggle's, Felicity's and Sara's characters seem more effortless -- they don't have the burden of canon.

 

Ok, so she wanted the lipstick and nails to match, and she wanted the mesh gloves as a nod to the fishnets. But she doesn't say that she wanted the gloves to be fingerless so you can see how her lipstick and nails match.

I think what bothers me is that no one thought to say "fingerless gloves are stupid if you're trying to keep your identity a secret.  Especially if you're an ADA.

 

But like the many buckles, it doesn't make sense for a superhero costume.  Is she going to change the colour of her nailpolish every time she goes out to patrol?  And what if there's an emergency?  Wouldn't that mean different lipsticks her locker to match her nail polish?

[dtissagirl]

KC's instagram pics from set this season are all with her natural hair, so maybe they're ditching the wig?

[apinknightmare]

Ditch the wig so her natural, Laurel Lance DA hair is showing, no eyeblack to conceal those eyes, fingerless gloves...

 

The citizens of Star(ling) City have proven themselves to be morons repeatedly, so maybe they really won't catch on, haha.

[Starfish35]

Well, they're never going to get rid of the long blonde hair, because not only does it help the stunt doubles, it also appears to be somewhat of a BC trademark. But they could vary the look up (thus my idea about the bangs). Probably also why they went with the platinum blonde (even though I don't like it) because it's distinctly lighter than Laurel's normal shade. But really it would be best if Laurel in regular life had a shorter darker hairstyle. Unless they're planning to lose the wig? *shrug* ETA: which, as dtissagirl pointed out as I was posting, is a possibility.

The wig really isn't on the top of my list though. Top of my list would be losing the buckles (though I get what dtissagirl is saying about stunt double camouflage). More practical looking boots for running and climbing, more practical gloves (not fingerless). Losing the garter belt because it serves no practical purpose. And blacking out the eyes because as others have pointed out, the mask doesn't hide much without the eyes being blacked out. A change of wigs would be after all those things.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

The only reason I don't think they would ditch the wig is because it helps the stunt double. Unless KC got loads better and they can use the double less.

It would crack me up if they did ditch the wig and had Laurel giving a press conference with a close up of BC playing in the background.

[kismet]

In defense of the motorcycle - LL could have already been proficient at driving a motorcycle. It is her characterization that she liked the bad boys, so I imagine that riding a motorcycle is part of that persona. So I am more likely to believe that she knows how to ride a motorcycle than that she is able to take down as many people as she did before Nyssa trained her. I say give her the motorcycle to get around, but perhaps leave any motorcycle stunts/jousts to OQ.

 

In defense of the dark lipstick - Where LL is more of a public figure, perhaps the dark lipstick (despite how awful it looks) actually helps to protect her identity better. In her lawyer job, I imagine she wears more delicate or professional colors, thus a nude lip may make her more recognizable. The black lipstick is never anything she would wear to court, thus it keeps her from being recognizable.

 

The gloves - The fingerless gloves need to go yesterday because they are just dumb & incriminating. Leaving behind fingerprints is just not what I expect someone of LL's intelligence & legal training to do.

 

Regarding the costume - I agree with streamlining the look. The problem is a lot of the costume features (wig & buckles) are to hide the stunt double. So they will probably stay. I wonder if the not shading of the eyes is also r/t the stunt double. It looks like a pain to get on & off, so maybe if the stunt artist needs to play multiple roles (esp as a female) it was more time efficient to keep the eyes bare.

[Starfish35]

No, KC asked them not to black out her eyes - that's from the quote above. And she also picked the dark lipstick - she said she thought it was more feminine. Which.....ok, whatever I guess. :/

[calliope1975]

I agree that the fingerless gloves have got to go. Everything else is a stylistic choice that I might dislike, but the gloves are just stupid. A big way to prevent having your identity discovered when your an outside the law vigilante is to NOT leave fingerprints everywhere you go. 

 

Of the other lady vigilantes, Thea, Sara, and the Huntress all blacked out their eyes - correct? Nyssa doesn't wear an eye mask because she's a badass ninja (though she sometimes wears a veil mask.) I'm not sure which characters KC's stunt double is also a double for but blacking out the eyes could potentially be a time saver if she's doubling for the other masked ladies.

 

Ehhhh, I suppose it doesn't really matter - this is the road TIIC have chosen, and I doubt they'll turn around now. However, just as Oliver and Barry's outfits have evolved, I would like it if Laurel's did as well.

[kismet]

No, KC asked them not to black out her eyes - that's from the quote above. And she also picked the dark lipstick - she said she thought it was more feminine. Which.....ok, whatever I guess. :/

You're right, that is  what KC said publically in an interview. But I'm trying to think of an in-show rationale that makes more logical & practical sense. As much as I think KC has influence in her costumes. I also think the people who sign off on the costumes want more rationale than just KC's fashion sense. However, KC in an interview is only going to give her an opinion.

Of the other lady vigilantes, Thea, Sara, and the Huntress all blacked out their eyes - correct? Nyssa doesn't wear an eye mask because she's a badass ninja (though she sometimes wears a veil mask.) I'm not sure which characters KC's stunt double is also a double for but blacking out the eyes could potentially be a time saver if she's doubling for the other masked ladies..

I was thinking more if she is being a female background character, doubling the female villains or part the villain crews. But yeah, who knows really if it is time saver or sucker to black out the eyes.

Edited August 24, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

In defense of the motorcycle - LL could have already been proficient at driving a motorcycle. It is her characterization that she liked the bad boys, so I imagine that riding a motorcycle is part of that persona. So I am more likely to believe that she knows how to ride a motorcycle than that she is able to take down as many people as she did before Nyssa trained her. I say give her the motorcycle to get around, but perhaps leave any motorcycle stunts/jousts to OQ.

 

Even if she hadn't done a lot of motorcycle riding, it really isn't that difficult to learn, especially if it's not a huge heavy bike.  If you can ride a pedal bicycle you could learn to ride a motorcycle with only a bit of effort.  It's just going to take some practice to become a GOOD rider.  You can be a mostly proficient /reckless one on your first day.  (speaks from experience - also realized I didn't like the risks and turned in my helmet)  I can easily imagine that while we haven't seen Diggle on a bike (have we?) he is an expert and that he could have helped her learn how to really push it's limits. 

Edited August 24, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

If I can believe that OQ can fly a plane because of one line drop in the script's finale. Than I can believe the LL can ride a motorcycle well with just a line drop in the script about riding bikes for years. Its not that hard of a skill to learn or become good at for the purposes they use motorcycles in the show.

 

Frankly, I think the line dropping in the script is an underutilized storytelling device in LL's characterization. They like to tell us a lot of things, as opposed to show us. But the one character they feel the need to show us rather than tell us is LL. All they have had to do for the last 3 years is pepper the script with LL taking martial arts classes or having a gym membership. Even moving forward, if they just refereence her going to a new gym or seeing a new fighting that she is trying out. I don't always need to see everything when it comes to LL, but at least I have to hear in script some rationale as to how/why something happened.

[kismet]

Well, whether it was the writers or the actress (and in this case most seem to blame the actress) it was a major fuck-up. I mean, I don't know when they knew she wasn't working, but they could have fixed it by recasting after the pilot, right? That was too big and too important of a character from the canon to make such a big mistake on. But they did, so they radically changed things up because they had to, and in so doing it earned them a permanently pissy fanbase out there who will never get to see one of the biggest things from the GA canon. Those people are going to be resentful and bitter about this forever.

And that was the show's fault, one way or the other, so I think they should own up to it, but also make no apologies for what they did moving forward, after they realized what had happened.

It would be nice to see them admit mistakes, but I don't think that will come until at least after the series wraps, if ever. It takes a lot to admit you messed up, especially when it seems the writers/EPs are comic fans. Admitting it now might jeopardize how they are perceived as writers & showrunners. And Hollywood is a town where perception is all that matters sometimes.

In defense of LL though, I think she worked in s1 minus the romantic parts with OQ. That being said she worked as a character for who she was as LL to herself & her relationships to the others, but not necessarily as a future masked superhero. So I don't think she needed to be recast from pilot. Plus they probably thought they could work through the problems.

By mid season 2, their characterization seemed a little wonky. SL as BC was checking off all the right boxes that it was only drawing more attention to the deficits in LL as BC. They really failed to lay the groundwork in s1&2 for LL as BC. They should have never brought in a premade ready to go version of BC. SL really knocked her BC character out of the park on all levels. They tried to fix their mistakes in the worst way. All they did was throw water onto a grease fire. No wonder the only way they could fix it was by killing off SL.

S3 was a mess for LL because in many ways she was neither LL or BC. I was really missing the LL from s1. And BC to me was graphically killed off for plot purposes. It doesn't surprise me that they had so many problems making her character feel organic to the story in s3. They spent all of s2 pulling her away from OQ's story until the end bits, while making her character rather unlikeable to set up SL. And then in s3 they put her in direct odds with her only ally, her dad. It was a really odd storytelling choices one after the other. At times I wondered how many buses can she be thrown under before she just doesn't get up again - in many ways she's like the Wile E Coyote of the Arrowverse.

S4 I feel is make it or break it time for LL on Arrow. They have now fulfilled contractual obligations to KC. There is nothing likely holding them back from doing what they want with character. My personal wish is that they make the character work or just get rid of her. I don't know how much longer I can be asked to invest in her character or not resent the time she takes from other characters or arcs.

It's nothing personal, but her arc on the show has made little sense for 1.5 seasons. I don't wish her bad things, but I think its about time she moves out of town for a fresh start. She could finally fight her own crusade off screen or on one of the spinoffs. She could always stop in from time to time on Arrow. But I sincerely believe that the best move for LL/BC is to make her recurring character at most on Arrow. I don't read the comics but from what I have read about her character, they do not seem to be doing her justice on the show anyway.

Edited August 27, 2015 by kismet

[Sakura12]

Besides the "Because comics" excuse. What reason or purpose does Laurel serve on this show anymore? Why is she needed? 

 

Those are the questions I need answered to understand why she's still around. 

[lemotomato]

Why, she's the leading lady, of course. Second billed! Female lead!

 

Sorry, I got nothing.

Edited August 27, 2015 by lemotomato

[kismet]

Not to dwell on analogies... but I got this little vision in my head of a possible scene to elevate LL to her hero status based upon certain things being discussed in spoilers regarding Sara. Essentially it inspired me to think of the finale scene of Les Miserables (Broadway & film).

Anyway, it made me realize that Cosette and Laurel are very similar characters. Both characters seem to get so much given to them. A lot of good/better characters die or are hurt because of them. A lot of audiences generally dislike or only tolerate them. Both have a very devout (often small) fanbase. And TPTB are enamored by them for whatever reason. When really they only have a few shining moments of good characterization in a sea of meh or mediocrity. And performance after performance, i still ask myself why are u still here? What is your role again, besides being one of the catalyst of crappy things happening with little to no bad consequences to you?

[Morrigan2575]

I HATE Cosette! So yeah, totally apt.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[EmeraldArcher]

In some ways though I feel like she may be the character that never really reaches her comic book destiny. Remember MG said, not everyone would. There is just something about how they have executed her character from s1 that reeks of potential but lacks actual fulfillment. No matter what they throw at her character to help her reach that potential or obtain that destiny... its never enough. She is always "found wanting".

 

S1 she failed at being LI. S2 she failed at being the second lead. Her addiction arc was both good & bad, but it never seemed like something people tuned in for. If you removed it from the Arrow narrative, I'm not sure general people would notice it missing or ask about it. S3 she failed to garner interest even after she got her mask & her stunt double. People were still talking about SL as the Canary, more so than LL as BC. The comparisons were never favorable to LL. Yes, OQ finally acknowledge her as part of a crime-fighting team. But he was handing those comments out like Oprah handing out cars. Frankly, I think if the Fern had survived it would have been designated a hero as well, right after Sally.

 

At some point, you have to wonder if everything is given to the character to help fulfill its potential and yet destiny still fails to show up... when do you call it? How many more rounds of shocks & treatments can you do before you have to accept the reality of the situation? LL/BC may just be that character that just doesn't make it... and if that is the case then the writers/TPTB need to do something whenever their contracts allow them to move on. It might be sad & painful, but sometimes that's just the truth & reality.

Sorry to bring this back up after so long, but I was on vacation.

 

Anyway, @kismet, I think you make some good points, but I think you've fallen prey to one of the errors I frequently make with this character--you've conflated LL the character with KC the actress.  I think it's an interesting concept that LL might be the character who doesn't reach her comic book destiny, but that can only be based on in-show experiences.  KC's failure to be a convincing LI, second lead, or addict should have no impact on LL's in-show ability to become a fully realized BC.  I think for LL's comic book destiny to be threatened, we'd have to see obstacles in-show preventing her from developing further as BC, such as moving away or a serious injury that permanently sidelines her.

 

However, I'm not a fan of either LL the character or even KC the actress, so I've been thinking seriously about why LL might not be the character to reach her comic book destiny. Admittedly, I don't know a lot about the original comic book characters, but there aren't that many left on Arrow, right?

 

Oliver Queen/Green Arrow: He has to reach his destiny; he's the lead character.

With his finally becoming Green Arrow in S4, he seems on his way.

Laurel Lance/Black Canary: She's taken on the name and the uniform. But, she has a long way to go, right?

Thea Queen/Speedy: She's actually a hybrid character, right? So, does she really have a comic book destiny? 

Felicity Smoak: I don't think her comic book destiny as Firestorm's stepmother was ever in play.  So, I don't think she counts.

Roy Harper/Arsenal: He had the code name and the uniform, and he was Oliver's side kick.  Comic book destiny fulfilled within the scope of Arrow's story?

Malcolm Merlyn/Dark Archer: Isn't Tommy actually the comic's Dark Archer?  If so, MM doesn't count either.

 

Given MG's statement, my bet is on Laurel not reaching her comic book destiny.  WM's recent comment about LL's learning curve seems a little contradictory to my theory, though.

[apinknightmare]

Laurel's already met her comic book destiny for the most part, though. She's a full-fledged Black Canary with no more learning curve, per WM. I think the name and the mask are all that's needed for TPTB to consider someone's destiny "reached." ETA: like statsgirl wrote below, she's probably not going to tick off all the well-known BC boxes, but I don't think that's what MG meant when he was talking about destiny - I think he literally meant a name and a mask.

 

I think that when the comment about someone not meeting their comic destiny was made, they might have had some other kind of plan in place for what they were going to do last season, that has since changed. Laurel's known as the Black Canary, Oliver's soon to be the Green Arrow, Thea's Speedy, Merlyn's a fully formed villain. Roy was Arsenal before he faked his death. Diggle and Felicity don't really have comic book "destinies" to meet. Everyone's named and costumed - it's done, I think.

Edited August 28, 2015 by apinknightmare