Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[statsgirl]

Or one could argue Oliver doesn't tell people he thinks can't handle it which is consistent with how Oliver has treated Laurel (and Thea) since he returned to Starling City.  It's stupid, but Oliver doesn't always make sense.

He's a very compartmentalized guy.  I think he thought that if they didn't know, they wouldn't worry.  Neither Laurel nor Thea are like Sara, who can handle herself, and even with Sara he told her to stay away so she wouldn't get hurt.

 

I do think that Oliver still cares for Laurel although not as much as he did a year ago and not romantically any longer.  I think the "do what you have to do" is Oliver compartmentalizing again; he was focused on defeating the army and the plan to inject Slade with the mirakuru cure and didn't have room for worrying about Laurel.  Really dangerous though since he knew Slade wanted to kill the woman he loved.

 

If Oliver had told Laurel 1) that he was the Arrow earlier on and 2) that Slade was out for revenge, what would she have done?

[KirkB]

It's not just Oliver. All superheroes tend to be morons about the "I can't tell them who I am because it will put them into danger" thing. Look at Superman. He refused to tell Lois for the longest time, which never worked since she was always running headlong into trouble he had to save her from anyway. Mary Jane had a bad habit of catching the eye of whatever villain Spider-Man was fighting. It was kind of nuts for Oliver not to at least warn his mom and Thea about Slade once the guy showed up at their frigging house though. To keep on topic for this thread, it wouldn't really have mattered if he told Laurel the truth or not, she probably would have ignored him and run right into Slade's clutches anyway.

[apinknightmare]

I mean, ultimately I get why he didn't want to tell Laurel (or anyone else for that matter) that he's Arrow. There's no reason, however, for him to not tell Laurel about Slade. It was the absolute worst information to withhold, and it just makes him look like a bigger idiot. If he had told Laurel Slade was out to kill her dead, the story probably wouldn't have played out much differently. She might not have opened the door for Slade to tell her Oliver was the Arrow, but she still would've been DiD when convenient to the plot.

But it would've meant he cared about her safety enough to give her a head's up, especially since Slade was out to get Oliver, not Arrow.

Edited August 14, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

When Quentin wanted to put police protection on Laurel in the fall of s1 because of the bad guy she was going after, she was all 'you're not the boss of me' like a 13 year old and refused it.  When in 2x21 Oliver told her to stay behind and stay safe, she followed him and almost got them killed.

 

It would have made sense to tell Laurel that Slade was after her but how could he trust that she would behave with that consideration?

[apinknightmare]

When Quentin wanted to put police protection on Laurel in the fall of s1 because of the bad guy she was going after, she was all 'you're not the boss of me' like a 13 year old and refused it. When in 2x21 Oliver told her to stay behind and stay safe, she followed him and almost got them killed.

It would have made sense to tell Laurel that Slade was after her but how could he trust that she would behave with that consideration?

But all he'd have to do was make her aware of the danger. How she chooses to respond to it is on her-it would've been good information for her to have, knowing that Slade was a threat to her. Sara was already looking out for her without her knowledge. Laurel knowing about Slade would've made all their lives easier.

I guess she could've gone out and done something stupid and tried to take him down herself (LOL), but IDK. I just hate that he hid that vital info.

Edited August 14, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Sara was already looking out for her without her knowing it, Diggle told us that at the start of Suicide Squad.

 

I agree that Oliver should have told her, especially since Slade was after Oliver not the Arrow, and he mega should have told her after Thea got kidnapped. But on the down side, based on her past behaviour, he couldn't trust that she wouldn't go rushing out to confront Slade head-on rather than taking care she stayed safe.  And that would have made it much more difficult for Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

Sara was already looking out for her without her knowing it, Diggle told us that at the start of Suicide Squad.

 

I agree that Oliver should have told her, especially since Slade was after Oliver not the Arrow, and he mega should have told her after Thea got kidnapped. But on the down side, based on her past behaviour, he couldn't trust that she wouldn't go rushing out to confront Slade head-on rather than taking care she stayed safe.  And that would have made it much more difficult for Oliver.

I know Sara was watching out for her-I went back and edited. Although I wonder who took over when she went to Nanda Parbat?

Point that Laurel could've tried to branch out on her own, and that's a real problem with her characterization. It doesn't make her look noble or brave, it just makes her look stupid. And, I guess leads to scenes like the one where she (surprise!) ends up saving Oliver from a Mirakudude and then minutes later winds up nearly having a breakdown when she has to hit the broad side of a rubble barn with an arrow.

[statsgirl]

I got the feeling that by the time Sara went to Nanda Parbat, they had stepped down from the high intensity of protecting people from Slade (probably because Birds of Prey followed Suicide Squad and there was less Slade! in that).  It was after Sara left that Slade killed Moira so if anything, they should have really increased protection for Laurel then since Slade had just announced one more person was to die.  Maybe Oliver thought that if he handed himself over to Slade, Slade would leave Laurel alone so there was no need to protect her.

 

 

And, I guess leads to scenes like the one where she (surprise!) ends up saving Oliver from a Mirakudude and then minutes later winds up nearly having a breakdown when she has to hit the broad side of a rubble barn with an arrow.

I can fanwank that as Laurel being brave on adrenalin going out and hitting the mirakuru soldier and then, seeing what it's really  like out there, getting scared afterwards. But it is harder to like her than Sara, who is always brave post-island, or Felicity who is always scared but goes ahead and does it.  It's like they were trying to place Laurel somewhere in the middle, or maybe find a position for her that doesn't mirror someone else's..

[KirkB]

Damn it, I guess I will have to be fair to Laurel for a moment. Attacking the Stroke was a "reacting without thinking" and adrenaline thing. By the time she was trying to shoot the arrow the adrenaline would have worn off and, oh yeah, she'd just been blown up and had chunks of a tunnel fall on her.

[wonderwall]

I honestly wonder what Laurel's thought process was right after team arrow left and before she saw the Mirakudude beat Oliver up... Did she leave because she thought Oliver needed her? Did she just want to help? Or was she bitter that she wasn't allowed to help Oliver when Felicity and Digg were allowed to? Did she go all "screw what Oliver says, I'm going to help save the city because I can totally defend myself against superhumans"?

 

Honestly, I was so annoyed with Laurel at that moment because it just goes to show she doesn't have the ability to listen. She ran into the same problem in season 1 when everyone told her to stay away from the glades... Didn't Laurel learn her lesson? That moment made me realize that she didn't and that just undermined everything she went through in the entire season. She should've listened to Oliver. I could understand if the foundry was attacked and she had to find a safe place, but no, by the time Laurel left, the foundry wasn't attacked because all the mirakududes were still with Blood. 

 

So yeah, while some people found that part to be "badass" I found it to undermine Laurel because: 

• It showed she didn't learn her lesson from the previous season
• Made Laurel look more juvenile because she couldn't accept not being a part of the team
• It showed that Laurel didn't think of the ramifications of her actions (because then Oliver had to take care of her instead of focus on the mission)
• It made it blatantly obvious that the writers were trying to make Laurel look relevant

 

I still firmly believe that Oliver wouldn't have struggled with that fight if it wasn't for the shoehorning of Laurel because he always had that exploding arrow to use. Honestly, it was just shoddy writing which is apparently a norm when it comes to Laurel

[apinknightmare]

Damn it, I guess I will have to be fair to Laurel for a moment. Attacking the Stroke was a "reacting without thinking" and adrenaline thing. By the time she was trying to shoot the arrow the adrenaline would have worn off and, oh yeah, she'd just been blown up and had chunks of a tunnel fall on her.

 

Full disclosure, since I'm the one who brought it up: It never occurred to me that the arrow shooting "breakdown" (for lack of a better word) would've been an adrenaline thing, considering their lives were continuously in danger as they were trying to flee, so I didn't think she'd even have time for a crash. I just assumed it was another instance of the writers making her "badass" when they needed her to be, and then damseling her when they needed to do that. Kind of like how they had her felled by a tranquilizer dart and then kidnapped by one of Slade's goons, but then they had to have Laurel throw a punch at the guy holding her in the treatment plant before she'd run to safety. It's like they know they've had her be damsel-y for too long so they have to remind us that "Hey, she can hold her own too, remember!"

 

But I'll concede the arrow thing could've been an emotional reaction to a life-threatening situation.

Edited August 14, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

Like, how many times has Laurel been a target? Granted, it's not always due to her association with Arrow, but...anyway. Whatever the show tries to sell, I think he didn't tell her for self-preservation reasons. She had such a crush on Arrow in the first season, I can understand him keeping it a secret because he wanted Laurel to love HIM. The second season, she turned on him so quickly, I don't blame him for not revealing himself, especially when Laurel was in the midst of her addiction. Do I think for a second that any of Oliver's reasons had anything to do with Laurel's safety? Nah. Not one bit.

 

For me, the core of the problem of Oliver and Laurel getting back together at the end of season 1, was Oliver, IMO was never going to tell Laurel he was the Hood. He had no intention of being honest with her because at that point he was a murderer. It all seemed like a big fat lie with Laurel in the dark and a relationship built on that wouldn't last. I don't think he thought Laurel would accept him, otherwise he would've told her he was the vigilante. Tommy was correct in his assumption that Laurel would love Oliver even more if he revealed himself, but at that point he probably wanted to act like all of that arrowing people didn't happen, and he and Laurel could live happily ever after. The end. Case in point, Laurel doesn't flip her business when she finds out Oliver is the Arrow. Nope. She accepts him with a hug.

 

The trope of the hero not telling the people he loves whom he is is getting annoyed because we've seen it done so much, with so little effect, that it seems so reckless and unrealistic. I also wonder why they decided Oliver had to be dumb dumb in the finale (really the second half of the season) with not telling Laurel to be on her guard. Slade told him whom he will go after, and Slade knew Oliver loved Laurel. The fake out could've been done with Laurel so that she didn't seem so useless. Her purpose was to get tranq'ed and be damseled. Wonderful.

[poetgirl925]

In watching S1 again, I realized that Laurel was so wrapped up in being the love interest that her character ended up being defined by that rather than her destiny as Dinah Laurel Lance. Out of all the characters besides Oliver, she should have been the one most fully realized. She had a job, a home, family, and a friend but when we ended the season, I didn't feel that I knew her very well. I guess this is where backstory doesn't necessarily flesh out a character. I had a factual dossier on Laurel, but that's about it. She was hard rather than vulnerable, and I need some vulnerability in a character in order to connect with them. (In contrast, Malcolm and Moira and Nyssa all had vulnerabilities that allowed me to connect to them even when they were the villains.) She didn't open up to people very often, but her relationship with Tommy made her more likable to me. I'm sure of that because when I reviewed my comments about Laurel from 2012-2013, I wasn't as harsh as I'd been in the first 5-6 episodes, until we hit the back half of the season. (Boy did that love triangle just assassinate her character.) Unfortunately, Tommy still left her being defined by love interest. She just came out of it better than she did in scenes with Oliver. In being the love interest, I usually got a sense of her being either weak willed, manipulative, or both, especially at the beginning and end of the season. Basically, it did her no favors and in no way reflected her comic counterpart or honored the source material of Dinah. Her agency was wrapped up in being half of the OTP, and Dinah Laurel Lance is too big a character for that. She never should have been a Lana type, and she annoyed me more than Lana because I knew she was supposed to be better than that. But the writers totally faltered when the OTP angle did, and they never recovered.

In S2 they just totally isolated her from everyone. Quentin is proof that characters can improve because as much as I love Paul Blackthorne, (he was the only actor I knew when I started watching) I did not care for Quentin at all when the show started, and his scenes with Laurel made them both pretty unbearable to me. But he could have been used in support of her character in S1 had they not decided to go with the regrettable addiction arc. They more or less separated Laurel from the love interest angle in S2, but then that left her dangling in the wind because characters not connected to Oliver tend to not get as much story time. She pushed everyone away - understandable in an addict, but it didn't help me know her. Again she was shown to be hard rather than vulnerable. Not knowing the secrets meant she was also useless in the main plots and when she was featured, it felt unnatural as in Blind Spot (bad, bad writing) or made her look silly as in the episode where she ignored Oliver and followed him to Blood and his Mirakuru soldiers. It seems that every episode she features heavily in has the negative and unintended consequence of somehow making her look bad, which makes me wonder how well the writers know her.

I think if she's truly the female lead, it shouldn't matter if she's dating Oliver or not. She should be a character in her own right with her own stories, and I should be able to say that I know her. The only way I can get to know her is if they give her characters she can be open with, hopefully without being hard and antagonistic. They need to give her problems that she's solving in her own way and with her own support system. Oliver has a large support system, but Laurel only has Quentin, and that's really been debatable at times. I think the question is whether they can separate Laurel from the OTP and still give her a story. In S3 can they give her agency as Dinah Laurel Lance? I think they can involve her in the story without making her the DiD now that she knows, so that's a step up. (If she's still the DiD in S3, I've got nothing.) Can they give her a love interest that strengthens her and gives her another support system without letting it define her? Can they have her explore her identity in a believable way without making her look like a rip-off? Will they be able to do this in such a way that Laurel's detractors become supporters, or at least that it lessens the jeering from large portions of the audience and critics alike?

The problem is that they apparently have no intention of spending equal time on Laurel's journey, which is understandable. This is first and foremost Oliver's story. This is not Arrow and Canary, and I don't really think it should be. However, Dinah Laurel Lance is a big character in comics and requires her own story, so it's an interesting balancing act when they're also dealing with fleshing out many other characters in addition to telling Oliver's main story. I also think that turning Laurel around would require a massive effort from both the writers and the actress. Since they've been largely unwilling to (at least publicly) admit there's a problem with this character, I fear the character will continue to roll along unchecked in S3 and beyond. I actually really hope I'm wrong about that though.

[statsgirl]

From the heartaches thread, a Collider interview KC published October 2013 although from what she says it seems more like it's from season 1:

KC:  I think she’s very much a caretaker.  It makes her feel good, and I think it’s just how she was raised.  Her mother not being in her life, at some point, made her step up into that role of the wife to her father, taking care of him.  It’s a selfless act, to me, but at the same time, it’s the only way she knows how to function.  It makes her feel safe.  In the same breath, maybe it’s a selfish thing.  It’s the only way she knows how to operate.  Her father instilled so much integrity in her and a lot of morals and values, and she expects people who live up to that.  The people who do, she wants to help.  The people who don’t, she wants to take them down.  I think you’re going to see a lot of that.

 

  Well, that is kind of a weird way to view her character's relationship with her father. She can step up and be the caretaker of the family but IMO to think of the daughter is the wife....O_O.  I don't mean in a sexual way but if she's thinking that she is now the wife of the family...like I don't get that at all.  

 

Too bad the moralist Laurel felt blackmail is okay.  See to me, this tells me that even if the writers changed her character she never changed her acting to go with the character changes.

 

and about Laurel and Oliver:

 

 

CASSIDY:  There’s a lot of emotions going on.  There’s a lot of confusion and a lot of anger.  She’s not sure.  She’s trying to function and not let it affect her work, at this point, but she also loves this person and there’s a super strong connection between them.  She’s trying to close him off, although she also tries to see the good in everyone.  She sees his potential.  They have all this history.  She wants him to be a certain way, and he’s disappointing her and hurting her.  I have no idea what’s going to happen between the two of them, but I think we’re going to see a lot of the history in that relationship.
CASSIDY:  He hurts her again, when she offers herself to him, as a friend. She says, “If you need someone to talk to, I’m here,” and he immediately puts on this front of being the asshole.  She’s continuously hurt and disappointed.  I think, at some point, she will be willing to forgive, but hopefully not forget.  But, it is possible.

Other than laughing at all the integrity her father instilled in her and there's going to be lots of Laurel taking down people who don't have it, this interview feels like it's from very early on in the shooting and she's got this idea of Laurel that didn't end up coming out on screen.  She was right that Laurel wanted Oliver to be a certain way and he ends up disappointing  her, but there's no sense that Laurel was wrong in any way to try to force what she wanted on to Oliver.

 

And while there may have been some sense of Laurel being a caretaker wrt the clients of CNRI and a backstory of helping  her drunk father, that was all the caretaking there was and it quickly vanished. As for Laurel being unselfish, the moment she took the remote and shut off the TV everyone else was watching, that went out the window.

[Morrigan2575]

Depending on when in October it was conducted, they were probably filming Burned,Trust But Verify, or maybe Vertigo.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[willpwr]

The interview was posted on October 10, 2012, would be less confusing if they put the date instead of 1 year 318 days ago, I had to google it. 

 

She also said: It’s a selfless act, to me, but at the same time, it’s the only way she knows how to function.  It makes her feel safe.  In the same breath, maybe it’s a selfish thing.  It’s the only way she knows how to operate.

 

So she's not sure if her character is selfish, selfless or a mix of both.

 

In this part: Her father instilled so much integrity in her and a lot of morals and values, and she expects people who live up to that.  The people who do, she wants to help.  The people who don’t, she wants to take them down.  I think you’re going to see a lot of that.

 

it appears that she sees her character as a moral judge, she expects people to live up to her morals and values, if they do, she'll help them, if not then she'll take them down. Does she view Laurel as morally superior? If she does, that would explain why she seems condescending in a few scenes.

[Morrigan2575]

Ok, October 10th would probably put it around finished filming Burned / just starting Trust but Verify.

[TanyaKay]

She was just as clueless in 2012 as she is now and there were no Caity Lotz or Emily Bett Rickards back then to compare her with. She over used words like cool and edgy and she thought Laurel worked in corporate world. I LOLed at that.

[statsgirl]

Ok, October 10th would probably put it around finished filming Burned / just starting Trust but Verify.

Interesting because if quarks is right, then at that point the EPs had decided to end Oliver/Laurel and Oliver had given Laurel and Tommy his blessing in Year's End. If so, then she should have been talking about Laurel's relationship with Tommy in terms of Laurel and Tommy and what they bring to each other, rather than justifying it in terms of Oliver's sins and how she feels it's okay because of that.  She needs to make Laurel a character in her own right rather than in terms of Oliver and future BC.

 

 

it appears that she sees her character as a moral judge, she expects people to live up to her morals and values, if they do, she'll help them, if not then she'll take them down. Does she view Laurel as morally superior? If she does, that would explain why she seems condescending in a few scenes.

It's an interesting question -- does she view Laurel as morally superior? Or does she view Laurel herself as seeing that she's morally superior, when it's not necessarily the case?  The acting would be the same for both, but the her attitude towards Laurel would be very different. 

 

Saying " It’s a selfless act, to me, but at the same time, it’s the only way she knows how to function.  It makes her feel safe.  In the same breath, maybe it’s a selfish thing" shows more insight than I usually credit her with.  If it's the way to function that makes her feel safe, in a sense it is selfish.  (Parents who want to be their kid's best friend when what the kid needs is tougher boundaries may know the feeling.)

[TanyaKay]

Interesting because if quarks is right, then at that point the EPs had decided to end Oliver/Laurel and Oliver had given Laurel and Tommy his blessing in Year's End. If so, then she should have been talking about Laurel's relationship with Tommy in terms of Laurel and Tommy and what they bring to each other, rather than justifying it in terms of Oliver's sins and how she feels it's okay because of that.  She needs to make Laurel a character in her own right rather than in terms of Oliver and future BC.

 

 

It's an interesting question -- does she view Laurel as morally superior? Or does she view Laurel herself as seeing that she's morally superior, when it's not necessarily the case?  The acting would be the same for both, but the her attitude towards Laurel would be very different. 

 

Saying " It’s a selfless act, to me, but at the same time, it’s the only way she knows how to function.  It makes her feel safe.  In the same breath, maybe it’s a selfish thing" shows more insight than I usually credit her with.  If it's the way to function that makes her feel safe, in a sense it is selfish.  (Parents who want to be their kid's best friend when what the kid needs is tougher boundaries may know the feeling.)

I think she does view Laurel as morally superior, otherwise we would not have that scene where she exploded a wine glass on her sister. Not to mention the dinner table explosion which was rightly directed at Sara and Oliver but she basically attacked her dad which was not called for.

[wonderwall]

 

Why Laurel will probably never be a believable BC (unless she gets trained like Sara did which is highly improbably). 

[KirkB]

That gif is amusing, but not entirely accurate. Nyssa was the best trained Leaguer we saw and Oliver was able to beat her. Your average assassin doesn't seem to be THAT tough. Didn't Quentin beat a couple of them?

[BkWurm1]

We don't know who trained Oliver. 

 

Plus everyone can get lucky sometimes.  :)

[Morrigan2575]

Plus the show is called Arrow...he's not going to lose a fight unless it's to set up some big dramatic scene,

[Sakura12]

It's his show, Oliver is never going to lose in the end. He'll defeat Ra's al Ghul when he shows up too. So we can't compare anyone else to Oliver. 

 

Sara and Nyssa are more highly trained than Laurel. Sara was taught to fight by master assassins and technically should be a better fighter than street fighter Oliver. But again, it's not her show, so she'll still need help from the hero of the show.

 

Laurel taking boxing lessons is not going to make her a better martial artist than Oliver and Sara. They weren't just taking self defense classes at the gym, they learned to fight so they wouldn't get killed. So they have had years of hardcore training, they were fighting to survive and they were a lot younger when they started. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

It's not just learning to fight so they wouldn't get killed.  Sara was trained by the LoA, to get in, do the job, get out, and not get noticed if she can help it.  (I assume, not having read the comics.)  She was taught every technique that's worked for the other assassins and everything that each developed for himself.

 

I will accept that Laurel can fight, if that's what the show is selling because it's either that or stop watching, but I won't trust them as much, 

[TanyaKay]

Guys, don't forget that some of the best fighters taught Oliver. Shado & Slade Wilson on the island and then Argus trainers Maseo & Katana in Hong Kong and we don't know who else after that.

[Password]

Well Merlyn is pretty amazing and kept handing Oliver his behind so the LoA must be doing something right. Probably has a lot to do with how much bigger physically Oliver is to Nyssa. He has a lot of weight on her.

[Sakura12]

I also think Nyssa wasn't really into the fight since she thought the woman she loved was pretty much dead. It's kind of like the first Sara and Helena fight. Sara was holding back but the next time they met up Helena barely got a hit in. 

 

That is another thing, Sara and Oliver were trained by multiple fighters in different martial arts and techniques. They have years of that kind of training to make them fighters they are today. Laurel will always be playing catch up and at worst she'll be a side kick which is never where the Black Canary should be. 

 

When I first saw Laurel I was wondering how they were going to make her an equal to Oliver, especially when they showed her constantly being damseled. Then when they introduced Sara, I thought, that's perfect! She's already trained and is an equal to Oliver, already has the costume and her own agenda. That's the Black Canary in the Arrowverse. But now they look like they are going back to the useless constant damsel Laurel being the BC and it makes even less sense now then it did in the very beginning. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[willpwr]

 

This is one of the scenes where I found her acting most believable, maybe not what she said but that she really felt that way.

Edited August 26, 2014 by willpwr

[Password]

 

This is one of the scenes where I found her acting most believable, maybe not what she said but that she really felt that way.

Yes I love that scene because I actually felt her anger/hurt. It was good. Then of course the lunge happened and I wish the glass exploded on Sara's back.

Nope not bitter at all.

[statsgirl]

Maybe 

this is what the MG is talking about? When Laurel has to decide whether she's going to take her sister's life or not, since apparently Sara stole her life?

 

No, I don't really think so.  Wow, did the writing in that scene ever let Laurel down.  That's just an awful line.

[Sakura12]

With that scene, I still think that was KC saying it instead of Laurel. All of her scenes are KC saying the lines and not the character. So that one came across as real because it's probably really what she thought of CL coming in and being the Black Canary. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

For the life of me I can't take that line seriously. I only watched this scene once, and just looking at the GIF now I got the giggles. It's the most meta thing this show has EVER done, and I legit don't think it was the writers' intention for us to see it as a reflex of CL coming onto the show and pwning the Canary role from under KC's grasp.

[calliope1975]

I think it could have been interesting and possibly made Laurel more sympathetic if they had explored that line more. We're seeing what Oliver and Sara went through but we've only been told how hard it was for everyone who had to deal with their "deaths." Written well, it could have been a compelling story of anger, jealousy, and recovery.

 

Key words being written well. Instead, we got Drunky McDrunkerson who then inexplicably becomes Oliver and Sara's relationship counselor. Doesn't even think to question her sister after seeing her horrific scars, then gleefully sends said sister off with professional killers.

 

Ah well, maybe this year it'll come together.

[BkWurm1]

It's the most meta thing this show has EVER done, and I legit don't think it was the writers' intention for us to see it as a reflex of CL coming onto the show and pwning the Canary role from under KC's grasp.

 

What could their intentions have been?  Was Laurel actually mad that she wasn't the one lost and presumed dead for 6 years?  That's the life she says Sara stole from her.  Such a big WTH moment. 

[wonderwall]

Everytime I see that gif I think of Laurel saying: You stole my whole life. I was supposed to be on that boat and I was supposed to be the one who was with Oliver when we got shipwrecked blah blah blah. To me, the only thing Sara 'stole' from Laurel was Oliver. Everything else wasn't in her control. And to say that Oliver was her whole life doesn't really paint Laurel in a good light. It makes her look petty and childish and pathetic. 

 

Did KC deliver that scene? Yeah. But the writing was terrible and it didn't make me sympathize with Laurel. 

[Password]

If there's one thing about Laurel everyone needs is to feel sorry for the way she's written. There isn't a whole lot that makes sense for her. Back story with Oliver included. It was a non starter.

[statsgirl]

What could their intentions have been?  Was Laurel actually mad that she wasn't the one lost and presumed dead for 6 years?  That's the life she says Sara stole from her.  Such a big WTH moment. 

 

If I stand upside down and squint sideways, I get the impression that Laurel's life stopped when the boat went down.  Her sister was presumed dead so her parents split up and then there was nothing for her.

 

Of course we know her life didn't stop, she went on to law school and an important career as a crusader so it just makes her seem like a bitter drama queen.

 

 

Everytime I see that gif I think of Laurel saying: You stole my whole life. I was supposed to be on that boat and I was supposed to be the one who was with Oliver when we got shipwrecked blah blah blah. To me, the only thing Sara 'stole' from Laurel was Oliver. Everything else wasn't in her control. And to say that Oliver was her whole life doesn't really paint Laurel in a good light. It makes her look petty and childish and pathetic. 

Ugh.  Is that what she could have meant?  That's really selfish, to blame her sister who was missing and presumed dead for 6 years, for losing her the fantasy life as Mrs. Oliver Queen that she had planned.  And since she's thrown plenty of blame on Oliver for taking Sara,  it's hypocritical to put all the blame on Sara right now.

[willpwr]

Slade was awfully written but MB sold it. I think the writers have tried to make her sympathetic but there's only so much that writing can do when the acting isn't there. They put her in many different situations, probably to see what would stick but there's really not much. It sucks but if they want her to work, they need to play to KC's acting strengths.

[apinknightmare]

Everytime I see that gif I think of Laurel saying: You stole my whole life. I was supposed to be on that boat and I was supposed to be the one who was with Oliver when we got shipwrecked blah blah blah. To me, the only thing Sara 'stole' from Laurel was Oliver. Everything else wasn't in her control. And to say that Oliver was her whole life doesn't really paint Laurel in a good light. It makes her look petty and childish and pathetic. 

 

Did KC deliver that scene? Yeah. But the writing was terrible and it didn't make me sympathize with Laurel. 

 

I think Laurel was talking about Sara stealing Oliver from her - stole her whole life meaning marriage, family, future, etc., since she wanted to marry the guy. And like statsgirl wrote, Sara's indiscretion indirectly led to Quentin and Dinah's divorce (although that is squarely on their shoulders, not Sara's), and it made Laurel look the fool, what with news broadcasting that her boyfriend had disappeared with her sister. That's a lot of stuff to pile on at once, and I don't blame her for being angry, but there's a nuance to writing and playing that anger that she and the writers utterly failed at.

 

I don't think that Oliver was her life, but I do think that she was building her life around the idea of Oliver - being Mrs. Queen, being a socialite along with having name recognition as a lawyer. I mean, she was willing to overlook him cheating on her and lying to her in order to have that. Depending on her motivations, it makes her either look pathetic and naive or incredibly shrewd. Given her penchant for blackmail and being a low-level a-hole half the time, I wish they'd play it as her being shrewd and trying to move up the ranks by any means necessary. Just drop the epic love BS and get down to the nitty gritty.

Edited August 26, 2014 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

For someone who's supposed to be a strong independent woman, they've shown that Laurel is the exact opposite with everything she says and does. She's not strong, she's mostly insecure and lets her feelings get in the way of good judgment, she's not independent because she relies on everyone around her except for herself. She thought her life was stolen because of her boyfriend being taken away from her (thus the future SHE built for themselves)... This makes Laurel look extremely possessive, self-involved, unstable, naive, and pathetic. Everything that the black canary isn't. 

[apinknightmare]

For someone who's supposed to be a strong independent woman, they've shown that Laurel is the exact opposite with everything she says and does. She's not strong, she's mostly insecure and lets her feelings get in the way of good judgment, she's not independent because she relies on everyone around her except for herself. She thought her life was stolen because of her boyfriend being taken away from her (thus the future SHE built for themselves)... This makes Laurel look extremely possessive, self-involved, unstable, naive, and pathetic. Everything that the black canary isn't. 

 

Part of me wants to have some faith and believe that they're trying to take her from that person to grow into a more Canary-like woman, but since they've tried to sell her as the crusading do-gooder in the show and in interviews since the beginning, I think they're just writing these things with the intention of showing her as being the scorned, hurt party and either aren't considering the way it really comes off, or just can't write her in a way where she doesn't seem entitled or self-involved because of the acting behind it. 

[wonderwall]

To be honest, Laurel now knows that Oliver was a lying, cheating scumbag so I don't know why she was upset with Sara for 'stealing' Oliver. Even if Laurel and Oliver did end up having the future she imagined for them, it's not like it would've been perfect. Laurel should know that it would've been filled with Oliver cheating on Laurel and would've definitely ended up in divorce. So Sara essentially stole Laurel's life, but that life would've been the epitome of shitty anyways. 

[apinknightmare]

To be honest, Laurel now knows that Oliver was a lying, cheating scumbag so I don't know why she was upset with Sara for 'stealing' Oliver. Even if Laurel and Oliver did end up having the future she imagined for them, it's not like it would've been perfect. Laurel should know that it would've been filled with Oliver cheating on Laurel and would've definitely ended up in divorce. So Sara essentially stole Laurel's life, but that life would've been the epitome of shitty anyways. 

 

Well, she knew he was a lying, cheating scumbag before he even got on the boat - Sara told her as much. And Laurel still wanted to be with him, so...the whole thing really just made Laurel look like a social climber and set her up to be Moira 2.0, what with Oliver running around on Laurel like Robert did on Moira. So, either she was expecting him to change for her, or she didn't care if he did. Which is yet another contradiction where Laurel is concerned, because if either one of those things is true then she shouldn't have been mad at Sara over Oliver, per se, just mad at her for being a shitty sister, which is not at all what she said.

 

ETA: Basically I'm over here talking myself out of her meaning Oliver, but he's "important" to her, blah, blah, blah so of course she was talking about him, right?

Edited August 26, 2014 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

I don't think Laurel knew just how much of a scumbag Oliver was. I think she was in deep, deep denial because she did want that perfect high class life with Oliver. This is where her naivete comes into play. I just thought that Laurel would've grown out of this naivete (and I thought she did) until she said this. She still believed she could've had it all with Oliver which is quite sad and delusional 

[Sakura12]

When Laurel was dating Oliver, he choose to be with Sara. When they could've gotten together they decided not too, then when Sara came back Oliver immediately started dating her. Oliver choosing Sara when they were together and when they are not together should tell her something. Last season we have Slade kidnapping Laurel and Oliver tells him to do whatever he wants, then when Felicity is taken because of the plan he came up it's her he's looking at the entire time. So when it comes down to it, Oliver never chooses Laurel. 

 

She's delusional if she still thought they would've had a happy life together. Even if he never cheated on her with Sara there were multiple other women stealing her boyfriend before Sara. It was never Sara's fault that Oliver was cheating douchebag. 

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sakura12

[TanyaKay]

When Laurel was dating Oliver, he choose to be with Sara. When they could've gotten together they decided not too, then when Sara came back Oliver immediately started dating her. Oliver choosing Sara when they were together and when they are not together should tell her something. Last season we have Slade kidnapping Laurel and Oliver tells him to do whatever he wants, then when Felicity is taken because of the plan he came up it's her he's looking at the entire time. So when it comes down to it, Oliver never chooses Laurel.

Exactly, Oliver only shown concern for Laurel in her damsel moments and that too in season 1, he was quite chilled towards her in season 2. He talked to her about her addiction when Quentin asked him to and even went to the hospital when Quentin called though I could never figure out why Quentin called Oliver when he thought his daughter ODed.

My conclusion is that Laurel only wanted to be Moira 2.0 at any cost and she was bitter because it was denied to her, and the epic love story that the writers promised, well they forgot about it by the time second episode rolled out and Laurel donned her bitchiest persona.

[statsgirl]

I don't think that Oliver was her life, but I do think that she was building her life around the idea of Oliver - being Mrs. Queen, being a socialite along with having name recognition as a lawyer. I mean, she was willing to overlook him cheating on her and lying to her in order to have that. Depending on her motivations, it makes her either look pathetic and naive or incredibly shrewd. Given her penchant for blackmail and being a low-level a-hole half the time, I wish they'd play it as her being shrewd and trying to move up the ranks by any means necessary. Just drop the epic love BS and get down to the nitty gritty.

But it's been five years.... six by the time Sara returns.  To quote the title of Paula Caplan's book, Stop Blaming Mother, or in this case, mother and father and Oliver and Sara.  The idea of building her life around Oliver was the dream of either a very immature person or a gold-digger and she should have moved beyond the former and I doubt they ever wanted to portray her as the latter.

 

Maybe it's the only way the writers knew how to portray them as an epic love story but it did Laurel no favours at all.

 

I don't think Laurel knew just how much of a scumbag Oliver was. I think she was in deep, deep denial because she did want that perfect high class life with Oliver. This is where her naivete comes into play. I just thought that Laurel would've grown out of this naivete (and I thought she did) until she said this. She still believed she could've had it all with Oliver which is quite sad and delusional 

Laurel didn't want to know, and she must have worked really hard at it.  It's impossible she couldn't have figured it out, between Oliver not being available when she wanted him, or the gossip amongst their friends or Sara's comments.  The same way Moira may have found not to know about Robert's infidelities after the first dozen or so.  In a flashback, when he told her he needs to tell her something (Malcolm's plan), she tries to shut him down, replying "I don't want to know  her name."

 

 

When Laurel was dating Oliver, he choose to be with Sara. When they could've gotten together they decided not too, then when Sara came back Oliver immediately started dating her. Oliver choosing Sara when they were together and when they are not together should tell her something. Last season we have Slade kidnapping Laurel and Oliver tells him to do whatever he wants, then when Felicity is taken because of the plan he came up it's her he's looking at the entire time. So when it comes down to it, Oliver never chooses Laurel. 

He did once, in Home Invasion when he chose bringing in the bad guy so Laurel could prosecute him over  having Diggle's back. And we know  how that turned out.  With Laurel and Oliver, it really feels like they're both playing to the glory of their roles rather than actual caring for each other.

 

Episode 1x02 just finished playing on my local station, and looking at it now, Laurel really is awful, petulant and self-righteous and cruel to Quentin when he tells her he only wants her to be safe because he's lost one daughter already.  The girl playing the one the bad guy is after is a better actress.

[Kymmi]

I recently started the series from the beginning.  I was one of the viewers that quit in S1 because Laurel frustrated me and I didn't see a future for this show that I wanted to see.  I came back after catching a random S2 episode with Felicity, and then it was all over for me.  Rewatching from the beginning has been interesting.  I feel like there are a lot of issues with the Laurel character, and most of them aren't KC.  The writing for Laurel was all over the place!  She enters the series working for CNRI, kind of a badass.  She handles hand to hand combat early and doesn't take crap from either Oliver or Tommy.  And then in the middle of the episode she goes to Oliver and gets all puppy dog "If you need someone ..." and does her cry/sigh/gasp stuff.  Where does it come from???  I just don't get this character.