Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[BkWurm1]

But, then, if anyone should study CL's mannerisms, it's Katie, not her stunt double. The girls should share mannerisms from their regular lives, because that's how they knew each other.

 

This!

 

The mannerisms they should share should be smaller things like what they do with the paper covering their straw.  Do they ball it up?  Do they blow it off the straw? Do they squash it off like an accordion so that when you drip a drop of water on it, it expands like a wiggly worm?  Which one is their normal? 

 

They should be the one dipping their fires in milkshakes and in tandem, sighing for the pleasure of it.  Maybe share the same taste in shoes.  Or laugh at the same not funny joke.  These are the little details that identify people who have grown up together. 

 

I would actually appreciate seeing Caity and Katie come up with some shared mannerisms but fighting style?  MAYBE I could accept some odd way of doing something that would have sprung from childhood but then it should be the actresses doing it, not the stunt people mimicking fighting styles. 

 

It's not a terrible idea in general, just a bad one in where she wants to practice it. 

 

 

 

I see her as a strong brave woman. She wears her sisters jacket as a homage to her. She was already strong and brave before that though. She lost her sister and her boyfriend, her family broke up, father became an alcoholic and what does she do? She makes something out of her life and fights (well fought) for the poor. She wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty, put her life on the line. She is learning to kick ass out on the battlefield but she was kicking ass long before that int he courtroom.

Laurel is strong and she's brave but I don't find her noble or inspiring and I want to get that feeling from the heroes on the show.

[foreverevolving]

This!

 

The mannerisms they should share should be smaller things like what they do with the paper covering their straw.  Do they ball it up?  Do they blow it off the straw? Do they squash it off like an accordion so that when you drip a drop of water on it, it expands like a wiggly worm?  Which one is their normal? 

 

They should be the one dipping their fires in milkshakes and in tandem, sighing for the pleasure of it.  Maybe share the same taste in shoes.  Or laugh at the same not funny joke.  These are the little details that identify people who have grown up together. 

 

I would actually appreciate seeing Caity and Katie come up with some shared mannerisms but fighting style?  MAYBE I could accept some odd way of doing something that would have sprung from childhood but then it should be the actresses doing it, not the stunt people mimicking fighting styles. 

 

It's not a terrible idea in general, just a bad one in where she wants to practice it. 

 

 

 

Laurel is strong and she's brave but I don't find her noble or inspiring and I want to get that feeling from the heroes on the show.

This! so much.

My sister and I, even though we weren't very close growing up, do share some mannerism, even our voices sound the same to a degree (in fact it's similar enough that our grandma gets us confused over the phone). there's small things, like how you vocally react to something, a facial expression you may share, that show you have some connection, even if it's soo loose.

of course some people are also natural observers and thus wonderful imitators, I'm one of them (which is why alot of the mannerism I have change) I can pick up a person mannerism, specifically body movement, just by spending a couple of days with them or observing videos of them (which led to me catching myself a few months ago doing that hands fidgety thing Oliver does).. my point is, actors are supposed to be somewhat natural at this as this is their craft, so it does saddens me that Caity and Katie never picked up on such mannerisms from one another since they did had enough joined scenes and probably spend enough time together.

I do wonder whether PB and KC share some mannerism as most of their scenes are with each other. I did find Dinah mannerism slightly resemble that of Laurel.

[tv echo]

In the "Bringing the Black Canary to Life" video feature from the Arrow S3 Blu-Ray/DVD (see Media thread), MG says that S3 "was all about identity and one of the ways we expressed or, you know, dramatized that theme was the exploration of Laurel and her identity as Black Canary.  She is actually using that persona to process her grief".

Edited September 20, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

At this point, I'm pretty good with the fact that the most discussion/information that comes from the people that work on the show about Black Canary is about the wardrobe. Then I don't have to look for anything deeper wrt to BC on Arrow. The clothes make her, that's the entirety of it.

[kismet]

So does that mean that the black in her name is representative of grief & mourning?

 

I guess that is one way to spin the need for colors. LL gets grief = Black; SL gets resurrection = White. Wonder what color symbolism they'll come up for OQ & Green.

 

Having no preexisting knowledge of the comic origin of the name Black Canary, I wonder if that rationale is close. If it is not, I wonder if comic fans might get upset that they decided to make their own origination of her name. I don't know its one thing to make your own interpretation of someone's origin story, it's another thing to make up a different reason why/how they got their name.

[dtissagirl]

Having no preexisting knowledge of the comic origin of the name Black Canary, I wonder if that rationale is close. If it is not, I wonder if comic fans might get upset that they decided to make their own origination of her name. I don't know its one thing to make your own interpretation of someone's origin story, it's another thing to make up a different reason why/how they got their name.

 

There's not really any rationale behind the name in the comics. Dinah Drake wanted to infiltrate crime gangs and destroy them from the inside, so she came up with the disguise, inspired by other superheroes she knew wore them, and called herself Black Canary. Then her Dinah Laurel used the name as an homage to her mother.

Edited September 20, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Primal Slayer]

I was disappointed how they made Dinah into such an average character. Alex is great at playing a wise cracking badass and I was hoping they would make Dinah into one. But all they ever do is bring her in for the dramatic scenes.

[apinknightmare]

Dinah is a terrible person, full stop. 

[AyChihuahua]

Dinah is a terrible person, full stop.

I find it funny that there was so much terribleness on this show, especially in S3, that there's rarely a winner in the "who's the least awful" sweepstakes. Dinah was terrible to her family and Quentin, but Laurel was terrible to her when she ambushed her with Not!Sara. Laurel, and to a much lesser extent all of TA was terrible to Quentin in not telling him about Sara's death, but Quentin was terrible to TA. Oliver was terrible to TA in cutting them out of everything but using them anyway, but TA was terrible to him in not even having a chat about trying to get him out of the LOA and totally buying him turning evil. Oliver was terrible to Diggle, but Digg was terrible to Felicity in telling her not to date bc it hurt poor Oliver's feelings. Felicity was terrible to Quentin, but Quentin was terrible to Oliver about Roy. Thea was terrible to Oliver ("don't make me choose between my mass murdering biodad and you, Oliver"), but Oliver was terrible to Thea in keeping such huge secrets from her. The only one who wasn't terrible to anyone was Roy.

Malcolm, of course, was terrible to errybody, because he's a psychopathic villain, not an anti-hero, no matter what the show is trying to tell me now.

Edited September 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

There's not really any rationale behind the name in the comics. Dinah Drake wanted to infiltrate crime gangs and destroy them from the inside, so she came up with the disguise, inspired by other superheroes she knew wore them, and called herself Black Canary. Then her Dinah Laurel used the name as an homage to her mother.

Thanks! I guess whatever in-show rationale and philosophy will be just fine for ARROW's BC.

[Primal Slayer]

It was just a vicious cycle that kept going round and round until it all built up in Season 3. Everyone at this point have kept a secret about Sara. Oliver said she died on the ship when she didn't then he kept it a secret from everyone when she was alive, then Quentin keeps it a secret that Sara is alive, then Laurel/Dinah/TA keep it a secret that Sara is dead. 

[kismet]

I find it funny that there was so much terribleness on this show, especially in S3, that there's rarely a winner in the "who's the least awful" sweepstakes. ... The only one who wasn't terrible to anyone was Roy.

And the big prize for not being terrible is a one-way ticket out of SC. At least Roy got a nice car to drive off in.

[GreatAtBoats]

It was just a vicious cycle that kept going round and round until it all built up in Season 3. Everyone at this point have kept a secret about Sara. Oliver said she died on the ship when she didn't then he kept it a secret from everyone when she was alive, then Quentin keeps it a secret that Sara is alive, then Laurel/Dinah/TA keep it a secret that Sara is dead. 

Yes, everyone has kept a secret about Sara but only two of them conspired to commit identity theft to keep a secret Sara never asked them to keep.

[Primal Slayer]

Well it is hard to ask to keep a secret when you are dead though Sara asking people to keep a secret doesn't make it any better for her family. I thought it was ridiculous that they had Laurel keep her death from Quentin but at least she didn't do it for totally selfish reasons. She was afraid of her fathers heart condition  and it potentially sending him to the grave. And even though she was suppose to be "impersonating" The Canary, she used it because The Canary had a reputation amongst street criminals and the city was without any protectors so she did what she thought was best. Not the first time when it comes to superheroes, someone has paraded around town as someone else because of their reputation to help keep crime at bay, it has happened with Superman and Batman countless times, even in Buffy with the Buffybot. 

[Sunshine]

Yes, everyone has kept a secret about Sara but only two of them conspired to commit identity theft to keep a secret Sara never asked them to keep.

IIRC, Diggle & Roy were present in the lair when the "crime" was committed.  They didn't stop it or report it so I think that brings the conspirators to 4.

[catrox14]

In the "Bringing the Black Canary to Life" video feature from the Arrow S3 Blu-Ray/DVD (see Media thread), MG says that S3 "was all about identity and one of the ways we expressed or, you know, dramatized that theme was the exploration of Laurel and her identity as Black Canary.  She is actually using that persona to process her grief".

 

 

LOLOLOL. Good grief.  Whatever, Guggenheim. In their minds maybe that's what they though was happening. But yeah NO that was not came across to me.  She had no FUCKING IDENTITY as Black Canary until she stole Sara's costume and completely reconstructed it to look totally different , you know to HONOR her memory.

 

Oh my gods, there is so much spin I need Dramamine to stop from barfing.

[Primal Slayer]

They didn't have her steal Saras costume though. The only thing of Saras was the jacket which she already had but the whole jacket thing didn't make much sense. 

[catrox14]

They didn't have her steal Saras costume though. The only thing of Saras was the jacket which she already had but the whole jacket thing didn't make much sense. 

 

 

Then tell me what the scene of her eyeballing Sara's costume in the lair was about and we never see the costume again.  That strongly implied she took and used it for herself even though it was nothing like Sara's or Sara's jacket. 

 

That snippet is also annoying because they already had Black Canary with Sara. Kreisberg called her Black Canary. So yeah.  It also never came across to me that she was using her grief as anything but anger and acting out to beat up guys in hospital beds. 

 

Oh well. There it is.

Edited September 20, 2015 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

She wasn't eyeballing Sara's costume. Just her mask and wig and the little canary cry bombs. Seems like Sara was buried in everything but the jacket.

They never explained where Laurel got her costume though. Seems like she had it ready and waiting, haha

Edited September 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

Then tell me what the scene of her eyeballing Sara's costume in the lair was about and we never see the costume again.  That strongly implied she took and used it for herself even though it was nothing like Sara's or Sara's jacket. 

 

That snippet is also annoying because they already had Black Canary with Sara. Kreisberg called her Black Canary. So yeah.  It also never came across to me that she was using her grief as anything but anger and acting out to beat up guys in hospital beds. 

 

Oh well. There it is.

They had her look at everything to basically put the thought in her head to suit up. She was suppose to already have Sara's jacket and then only took her weapons. She didn't put her sister in the ground in just her underwear.

[catrox14]

Ahhh okay.  I don't remember that we saw exactly what Sara was wearing when they buried her. So yes we saw her wig and jacket and bombs which I probably did jump to they must have the rest of her costume elsewhere.

 

I still don't see how she had time to make her costume. Or did she order out for the parts. LOL. I mean maybe if they had shown her designing her costume thinking of Sara that might have made me feel better about what she was doing. 

 

Either way, I still don't see that they communicated what they say they were communicating. But as always , that's a mileage varies things.

Edited September 20, 2015 by catrox14

[Primal Slayer]

Of course it was a bit ridiculous/funny that Laurel was able to come up with a costume so quickly just as Thea was able to completely redo Roys costume. Though her costume consists of leather pants, some buckled up boots, a cute undershirt and a jacket. The only part that may have to be custom is her mask. The rest can simply be bought in the mall. But these are the same people who expect us to forget that Saras jacket is not as long as the one that Laurel is wearing and to just go with it.

[apinknightmare]

I never, ever got that Laurel's jacket was supposed to be Sara's. Was that explicitly stated somewhere (or did I miss it somewhere in this thread)? 

[Primal Slayer]

It is stated in the S3 special feature. I always thought it was regardless due to it resembling Saras jacket so much outside of the extra material.

[apinknightmare]

I always figured she just had another jacket on. Which would make much more sense (logistically, not sentimentally, of course). 

Edited September 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I never understood how Sara gave Laurel her jacket at the end of S2 but then magically has it again when she hasn't seen her since departing.

[apinknightmare]

I guess we're supposed to believe she had more than one? IDK

Edited September 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

Wait, we were really supposed to believe that Laurel's jacket was Sara's? They don't look even remotely similar, other than they're both black.

[Primal Slayer]

They both have the same straps on the side but with all the extra material and Laurels being able to be zipped up, of course the similarities became fewer but it is just another thing they glanced over in Season 3.

[Angel12d]

They made so much fuss over that jacket with lingering camera shots that it better be Sara's. OMG.

 

 

Wait, we were really supposed to believe that Laurel's jacket was Sara's? They don't look even remotely similar, other than they're both black.

 

 

We're also supposed to believe Laurel had a complete BC outfit ready to go on the off chance she needed it. The whole thing is silly when you think about it. I guess it's just one of those things you have to just accept otherwise you start questioning everything.

[Sakura12]

I guess Sara came back and got her jacket back since she was killed in it.

I didn't get Laurel honoring her sister at all in her rise to BC. She pretty much just stole her life because she needed to feed her addiction. She didn't even bother to get any training and just figured she'd go out there and fight crime, I guess because she thinks martial arts skills are genetic.

[catrox14]

Wait, wait, wait.  I misread all of that.  The jacket that Laurel wears is supposed to be the same one that Sarah gave her? Do they think we are all blind?

[Starfish35]

They both have the same straps on the side but with all the extra material and Laurels being able to be zipped up, of course the similarities became fewer but it is just another thing they glanced over in Season 3.

Those black straps (that I think you're referring to) were on Sara's corset, not the jacket itself. Sara's jacket was cut too short for that.

I'm sorry, but the reason I think this is soooooo dumb is....if they wanted us to believe Laurel was wearing Sara's jacket, why isn't she ACTUALLY WEARING SARA'S JACKET (or a version made to fit KC?)

Edited September 20, 2015 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

I guess Sara came back and got her jacket back since she was killed in it.

I didn't get Laurel honoring her sister at all in her rise to BC. She pretty much just stole her life because she needed to feed her addiction. She didn't even bother to get any training and just figured she'd go out there and fight crime, I guess because she thinks martial arts skills are genetic.

I saw it more  as when she went out the beginning of the season was more for her addiction, when she suited up it was more about honoring her and using her reputation to scare off the bad guys. She only seemed to suit up because she had just seen Team Arrow disband and knew the city needed a protector. Then of course she had to decide if she was going to keep this up just for Sara or for herself .

Those black straps (that I think you're referring to) were on Sara's corset, not the jacket itself. Sara's jacket was cut too short for that.

We may be talking about different straps? But the straps on Saras jacket are the same that are on Laurels.

https://thenerdsofcolor.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/laurel-boxing.png?w=672&h=372&crop=1

Edited September 20, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

Sorry, that pic is too small for me to see anything.

[Primal Slayer]

Sorry, that pic is too small for me to see anything.

Yeah I replaced it with another one

[apinknightmare]

The black straps with the silver studs on the sleeves are the same, but Sara's is short, Laurel's is long. Sara's is 3/4 length sleeve, Laurel's has long sleeves. God, insinuating that they're the same jacket is so stupid. At least Thea wearing Roy's suit is at least somewhat believable since she could alter it by removing material. We're supposed to believe that Laurel had the jacket and the sleeves lengthened? THAT'S STUPID.

 

I'd rather they just had her walking around in the damn jacket all the time than alter it to make it part of her costume.

Edited September 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

Yeah I replaced it with another one

Ok, you're talking about on the sleeves. Yes, the insets/straps/whatever are similar. But that's about the extent of it.

Why, if they wanted the jacket as a homage to Sara, didn't they work it into her costume as it was? Wow that's really stupid.

[Menrva]

They made so much fuss over that jacket with lingering camera shots that it better be Sara's. OMG.

 

 

 

 

We're also supposed to believe Laurel had a complete BC outfit ready to go on the off chance she needed it. The whole thing is silly when you think about it. I guess it's just one of those things you have to just accept otherwise you start questioning everything.

In my head, I have a scene where Laurel, after dragging her sister's body to the Foundry, goes home and in her grief, begins maniacally sewing a BC costume, kind of like Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns. Because why the fuck not.

[Primal Slayer]

In my head, I have a scene where Laurel, after dragging her sister's body to the Foundry, goes home and in her grief, begins maniacally sewing a BC costume, kind of like Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns. Because why the fuck not.

Except we saw her wear the jacket before she suited up and it magically grew in size.

[Menrva]

Except we saw her wear the jacket before she suited up and it magically grew in size.

Oh, I know, and you're totally right. It just makes me chuckle to think of Laurel cutting up an old black vinyl raincoat and laughing like a loon to herself. I just think Laurel is so much more damaged than they want to show. They keep trying to make us think that what she does is perfectly normal for a grieving person with addiction issues. And it's really, really not. Just let her be damaged and screwed up and hopefully find her way back to a healthier place.

 

ETA: Let me be clear - I don't think what the rest of them do is normal either. I mean, who the hell really goes around dressed in costumes fighting crime? That's right: crazy people. But it's fun to watch.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Menrva

[EmilyBettFan]

The times they write characters to suit Laurel's needs are the reasons why I can't stand this character.

[tv echo]

The CW's S2 Character Bio Card for Laurel...

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.307038822767490.1073741835.104137579724283&type=3

[morakot]

Re: the character card. I understand why Laurel "turned against the city's corrupt and powerful", but, as I recall, she wasn't waging "a one-woman war" at CNRI -- it was a pretty substantial organization with multiple attorneys.

[kismet]

Re: the character card. I understand why Laurel "turned against the city's corrupt and powerful", but, as I recall, she wasn't waging "a one-woman war" at CNRI -- it was a pretty substantial organization with multiple attorneys.

Yes, but LL was leading the charge. Because in LL's world-view it is always a one-woman war, the rest of us just accessorize it.

[HighwayFlower]

Who they tell us Laurel is, and who they show us Laurel is, are 2 completely different characters.

She comes off as a snotty spoiled brat who was jealous of her sister so stole her identity.

They messed up her character so bad, it's an insult to the comic book Black Canary who is totally bad ass.

[Primal Slayer]

I didn't see her as jealous of Sara. Sara didn't die and Laurel went "welp now I can be Sara!" Saras death+Olivers sudden absence+TA temporarily disbanding influenced her to take up the mantle of Canary for the better of the city. Then she had to figure out who was she really fighting for, soley for Sara or for herself as well? Which came out to be herself and to help the city.

 

In season 2 she was having major issues left and right, first with survivors guilt over Tommy, then substance abuse and everyone shutting her out so of course she wouldn't be in the best place. Not to mention that her mother left her, her father became a drunk, then Oliver is suddenly alive and her father is using her as bait to get to him, her mother was keeping secrets about her sister, then her sister is alive, everyone is keeping that from her and the straw that broke the camels back was seeing Sara/Oliver together so nonchalant and all she saw was red before deciding to repair herself. 

[Sakura12]

Who they tell us Laurel is, and who they show us Laurel is, are 2 completely different characters.

She comes off as a snotty spoiled brat who was jealous of her sister so stole her identity.

They messed up her character so bad, it's an insult to the comic book Black Canary who is totally bad ass.

 

I refuse to recognize Laurel as Black Canary, she's so unlike the comic character. It takes more than a name to be a character for me. And after watching some animated Black Canary I was amazed how much she sounded and acted like Sara. I don't know if Caity watched the cartoons but she really embodied the character of Black Canary. 

 

Laurel's just been a mess of character they've been struggling and forcing her to be relevant to the show since the first ep. Maybe if another actress was playing her, we could've had a different outcome.  But as of now I have an irrational hatred of the character of Laurel where she ruins any scene she's in. I can't even watch her Flash appearance, even though I heard she was like a pod person on there. I have to force myself to watch her this season just so I can see Sara and I'll probably have to deal with her on LoT as well. She's not an enjoyable character for me. 

[statsgirl]

When did Quentin use Laurel as bait to get to the Hood/Oliver?  Laurel was the one who took the phone the Hood had sent Quentin because she wanted to be in touch with him. 

 

It was hard on her when Sara died and Quentin hit the bottle when he couldn't catch the Dollmaker.  But I disagree that her mother left her.  It was Laurel who left her mother, moving out and concentrating on law school.  Dinah left Starling City because she felt that neither Quentin nor Laurel needed her any more and she left to make a new life for herself.

[Primal Slayer]

1x13. Quentins own work associate calls him out on using his daughter as bait.

 

And maybe I am not remembering it well but Laurel was the one who had to deal with Quentin becoming an alchy. Not to mention it seems like the only time Dinah was in contact with Laurel it was over Sara. Of course the writers did a bad job adding any kind of relationship for those two.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Primal Slayer