Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[apinknightmare]

I get the feeling he only lets the people closest to him call him Ollie. Thea. Laurel. Tommy. I think he'd stop or correct anyone else.

 

I don't think anyone who got to know him after he returned to Starling would even call him Ollie. It's a carefree frat boy kind of nickname - the type of thing the people who knew him then would've called him - not so much now.

[KirkB]

I don't think anyone who got to know him after he returned to Starling would even call him Ollie.

 

Which is why Diggle, Felicity and Roy don't. Laurel, Thea and Tommy all knew him from before. At the very least Thea can get away with it. I know from experience that brother and sisters do things like that to annoy one another.

[wonderwall]

I get the feeling he only lets the people closest to him call him Ollie. Thea. Laurel. Tommy. I think he'd stop or correct anyone else.

Ironically, I don't believe these people are the closest to Oliver (apart from Tommy, I feel like if he lived, they would've gotten closer) because Oliver always keeps up a wall in regards to them. 

 

As of now, Diggle and Felicity are probably the closest to Oliver. 

[apinknightmare]

Which is why Diggle, Felicity and Roy don't. Laurel, Thea and Tommy all knew him from before. At the very least Thea can get away with it. I know from experience that brother and sisters do things like that to annoy one another.

 

Right, I just meant that I don't think that it's a nickname that he'd only allow the people closest to him to use, rather it's a nickname that only people who knew him before he was shipwrecked would even bother calling him.

[KirkB]

Oh, okay. In that case, I agree with you. That's the problem with typing. No place for tone.

[apinknightmare]

Oh, okay. In that case, I agree with you. That's the problem with typing. No place for tone.

 

And, you know, there's also the issue of explaining yourself properly, which I probably didn't do. :)

Edited October 20, 2014 by apinknightmare

[KirkB]

And, you know, there's also the issue of explaining yourself properly, which I probably didn't do. :)

 

I'm probably guilty of that too. I sometimes hit reply before I should.

[foreverevolving]

So i know some of you have been bitching about how stupid Oliver Queen is for his actions... while sometimes i agree,

after tonight episode of OUAT Hook may win the award for stupidest character.

At least Oliver has valid reasons and reasoning i can understand.

After tonight Hook.. not so much.

With that being said, Colin had some stupid lines to deliver tonight and he still made me care enough for hook to not want him to be stupid and say those stupid things - which were contrived and.. yea stupid; all of which is more than i can say for KC when placed in the same situation. haa the power of being a good actor vs. not.

Edited October 20, 2014 by SilverStormm
Not everyone who watches OUAT will have seen the latest epsiode yet. Current episode OUAT stuff showing up in an unexpected place requires tagging, no matter how mild.

[statsgirl]

I dunno, I'll give anyone a pass if it's 

because of a hypnotic suggestion. And maybe it's true. Remember this was only Gold's explanation that the hand has no effect.

 

Poor Hook. But at least his reasoning was that he wanted a better, normal life.

 In contrast, Oliver's decisions in The Calm, from benching Diggle to saying Ray would be better to run QC to ending things with Felicity before they began, is about wanting to keep his world small and enclosed.  He has been through a lot (although he's had five months of successes so that should have helped) and he wants to retreat back into the comfortable.

 

Or as the tv.com reviewer put it

 

Zytle's attack during Oliver and Felicity's date was narratively and thematically sound, even down to Oliver interpreting a tracker being planted on him as a loss of focus. It reinforced the idea that Oliver, despite his apparent desire to move on from his traumas—or at least to actually start talking about them and dealing with them as Oliver Queen—will take any excuse to address them by fighting crime and keeping those closest to him still at arm's length instead.

 

As Carl von Clausewitz wrote "What is the object of defense? To preserve. To preserve is easier than to acquire."

 

Oliver is in preserving mode.  He's hiding in what he has had success at, being the Arrow.    But as someone else said (I can't find the quote right now) if you don't like the situation you are in, don't worry, it will pass. If you do like the situation you are it, it will pass.  The hole Oliver tried to get back into after the restaurant was blown up was destroyed when Sara died.  There is no safe place for him or for anyone any more.  Diggle knows that, and so he puts one foot in front of the other, just trying to get through life every day the best he can.  Felicity reacts by going out and grabbing whatever joy or satisfaction she can from the world.

 

I think the more Oliver tries to be cautious, the more he will get hurt.  

[TanyaKay]

Stephen Amell has improved tremendously as an actor in the past couple of years.

He was okay in season 1 and much improved in season 2 but he is giving consistently excellent performance in season 3 and every episode has multiple beats that get your heart going all out for him. First episode had the date, the aftermath of the date and the scenes in hospital - both in Digglet's room and in the corridor. The second episode has two emotional moments - one with Felicity and the last one with Diggle where you just want to sit with him and offer him a drink - or five. In the 3rd episode, all the interactions he has had with Thea were heart felt and connected with the audience on a much deeper level.

Kudos to SA for such marked improvement. Oliver Queen is really growing as a character and Amell obviously is responsible for that.

[wonderwall]

Let's take a moment to appreciate Stephen Amell's arms shall we? Damn. 

 

[Velocity23]

 

I really LOVE the arms!

[ohjoy]

Continuing on the admittedly shallow theme, I noticed on Show-o-matic recaps here that there is a category for shirtless Oliver -- which hasn't been included once this season.
 
When was the last time we saw Oliver with no shirt? I had to have been before Moira was killed, which makes it seven episodes since Oliver was last seen shirtless. Now I'm not a salivating fangirl or anything like that -- I more appreciated the amusing consistency with which shirtless Oliver was employed. It became a funny side-element for which the show was known. Should there be a death watch for this element? Is Oliver too distracted depressed mature to go without a shirt anymore? Inquiring minds want to know.

[chaos is welcome]

Nah, amell has said he's shirtless for a bunch of the winter run. Hop over to the spoilers thead for more of that. But even the shirtless was there is not going to be light or fun, I don't think.

[ohjoy]

Aaahhh, okay -- I'll take your word for it. I do my best to stay out of the spoiler thread. It's not as if I don't spend enough time obsessing in the other threads as it is -- else I would not feel the need to concerned that the main character of a television drama hasn't taken his shirt off in a while. :-)

[rue721]

From a lot of comments on the board, it seems like a lot of people find Oliver really dumb or at least dumbed down? I'm not seeing it, but that's probably because I'm blinded by my fangirl crush on Oliver Queen. Is it that he's been dumb on a micro level (like how he didn't heat the blank paper in this past episode, even though his father had a whole secret notebook FILLED with blank paper that revealed its "secrets" by heating the paper. And even though that's such an obvious trick for reading invisible ink that it was on Ghost Writer in 1994.)*? Or is it that Oliver's been dumb on a more macro level, across storylines or as a character trait?

 

There are definitely plot glitches that cause him and other characters to have to be very dumb or very smart all of a sudden and in a specific way that doesn't make sense, so if it's on a micro level, I completely see what people are talking about already. On a more macro level, though, I honestly hadn't thought of it until I came on here and saw that people were bringing it up. He always seemed like a fast learner and extremely thoughtful to me, so I never really thought of the character as being stupid. What kinds of behavior/storylines have been making people see Oliver as an over-all dumb character? Or is that what people are seeing in the first place? I'm not trying to argue with the idea, I just am honestly asking.

 

*Also, how difficult would it be to write a whole list in invisible ink and keep the lines/margins straight? I feel like if I tried to make a Hit List Notebook a la Robert, when someone heated the paper, the names would be all written over top each other and there would be whole pages that I'd mistakenly thought were still blank and had written multiple lists onto and stuff, it would be basically impossible to read. But maybe the lemon juice was wet enough to be able to read it while writing and to leave the paper wavy afterward. Or maybe Robert ended up doing that at some point but we/Oliver didn't see it. I mean, after all, Oliver only got through like half a page before Moira threw the notebook in the fireplace anyway.

Edited November 1, 2014 by rue721

[statsgirl]

There were two notebooks, I think. One Robert's and one Moira's.  She threw hers into the fire but Oliver still has Robert's.

 

I think the lists were written by Malcolm Merlyn. Maybe the LoA teaches some way to write in neat lines using the secret ink.

 

I think Oliver has always been stupid about emotional things. He didn't know that he needed to open up to Thea because she was looking for a connection to him; he opened up to Laurel instead.  (Stupid).  He was willing to move to Coast City to be with McKenna on practically no knowledge of her, he trusted Helena, he wanted to break up with Sara because of Slade going after him, he thinks he can't be in a relationship with Felicity. 

 

I think this season he's been increasingly stupid on a micro level, like about the paper in Sara's boot, or saying the LoA never would kill one of it's own. I take that to be plot contrivance around Laurel's story, and the lack of being honest with Thea plot contrivance about Malcolm Merlyn.

 

Not calling the police to say that Malcolm is in town, or not even telling Amanda Waller I see as incredibly stupid.  If he should have learned one thing, it's to never trust Malcolm.

[dtissagirl]

For me it's more like the writing needs Oliver to do some pretty dumb things for plot-advancing reasons, but the writers don't realize that that can make him look stupid. Like telling Nyssa that Thea is Malcolm's daughter in the last episode. The only reason Nyssa needed to know that information is because the plot of the episode demanded that she kidnapped Thea to lure Merlyn out. So Oliver told her, despite knowing Nyssa likes to kidnap people to lure whoever she's after out, because he's being a plot-driven character instead of being a character that drives the plot.

[Genki]

Don't forget signing the CEO duties over to Isabel after neglecting them for weeks.

 

Telling Roy to break up with Thea then letting her walk about on her own when Slade was out and about.

 

The whole plot line to get Oliver to loose everything, had to make him so dumb.

 

And now like other say, they are writing things to justify Laurel's presence. Stuff that makes Oliver and Felicity look dumb too. She knows about invisible ink to, she told Walter about it…grr!!

 

I can had wave a lot for Oliver, I'm firmly on his side for a lot of things, but some stuff is just so badly written.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Genki

[wonderwall]

Oliver definitely isn't the most intelligent or logical person on the show. I think while he can be smart/logical, he tends to let his emotions/fears get the better of him and make his decisions for him. That's why he makes stupid decisions like signing off his CEO duties/telling Roy to break up with Thea/lying to everyone etc. And Oliver really doesn't fare well when he's under pressure or when he's just really emotional. I think it's just who he is as a character. 

 

Even though Oliver isn't smart/logical, he makes up for it in spades in other senses. Oliver is strong, resourceful, a survivor, passionate, loyal, loves intensely... I don't need my hero to be smart because the people behind Oliver essentially balance Oliver out in that sense. Felicity makes Oliver smarter, she forces him to think about his decisions and so does Diggle. This is why I don't really mind. 

[statsgirl]

. I don't need my hero to be smart because the people behind Oliver essentially balance Oliver out in that sense. Felicity makes Oliver smarter, she forces him to think about his decisions and so does Diggle. This is why I don't really mind. 

On the other hand, when they are written to be stupid too for the sake of the plot contrivance.......Diggle telling Oliver to keep lying to Thea (shakes head sadly)

[wonderwall]

On the other hand, when they are written to be stupid too for the sake of the plot contrivance.......Diggle telling Oliver to keep lying to Thea (shakes head sadly)

Diggle telling Oliver to keep lying to Thea was SO OUT OF CHARACTER! Also him telling Oliver to let Nyssa kill Merlyn? I thought that was out of character as well. Oliver listening to Digg isn't out of character though. Stupid. But not out of character because Oliver trusts Digg and his judgement. 

Edited November 1, 2014 by wonderwall

[Carrie Ann]

I think Oliver is fairly smart, but his EQ seems low, and that may just be a result of his tunnel-vision. Sometimes his compartmentalization hurts him (and others), and it causes him to make the wrong choices. Also, the show has it set up right now so that he's the General. He makes the plans like 95% of the time, and so if something goes wrong, it's usually his fault. So he makes more mistakes than other characters just by virtue of always being the one in charge and having more on his shoulders and being the engine of the plot.

 

And I don't mind that--when it's intentional. To show his flaws, to show the areas he needs work. I don't need him to do the best thing all the time. I like seeing him on his journey. I like seeing him make progress. Which is why some stuff this season has been lovely--not getting angry when Roy told him about Thea; honestly telling Thea that he needs her--and other stuff has been frustrating--reversing his decision about Felicity after a very minor complication; trying to prevent Dig from being on the team; not fighting Laurel about telling Lance; not trying to get a hold of Nyssa to tell her about Sara; continuing to lie to Thea. I just don't know how many times I can watch him learn the same lessons and then forget them again a minute later.

 

And yes, I do think the writers have taken a few shortcuts in order to make the plot move the way they want it to, and that has had the effect of making him seem less intelligent. That blank piece of paper thing would have been a non-issue if they'd just had it be on Roy. That Roy found it, but didn't mention it because he didn't know about Moira's secret book, so it only comes out when Oliver questions him about what he found, one more time, in front of Nyssa. Still wouldn't have been the smartest Oliver's ever been--he should have asked for a full inventory of items on Sara--but at least it wouldn't have been this stupid.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[quarks]

Oliver Queen flunked out of four universities, but he's also been established as speaking at least four languages fluently: English, Spanish, Mandarin and Russian. He's also been shown as easily able to reach the correct conclusion and outthink/outstrategize his opponents; he easily memorizes various targets and assassination methods, and he can quickly figure out that he can distract someone holding a gun at him by firing an arrow at a smoke extinguisher. So, yes, he can be very intelligent even if Felicity just implied that he's an idiot.

 

Where he fails, and often, is on the emotional side, or when, as others have noted, the plot needs him to be stupid.

[wonderwall]

At this point I don't understand why any of the girls would want Oliver in their lives

While I think that Oliver shouldn't be with anyone until he figures out what he truly wants in life and is ready to actually take it, I totally get why someone would want Oliver in their life or why they would be in love with him.

 

Even though he makes a hell of a lot of mistakes, is emotionally weak, and can be an idiot he has a lot going for him as well... Oliver is strong, he's good, passionate, he gives up his own happiness so that others can stay safe, he can be disarmingly charming, his love for his family is so deep and intense and nothing can change that, in fact, when Oliver cares for someone he does everything in his power to keep them safe. But not only that, Oliver is also gentle when it comes to the people he loves, and he's just a really really good person at heart.

 

Oliver isn't perfect. His 5 years away ruined him but also made him a better man. There's a lot to love about Oliver Queen but the man is not perfect. This is why I love him with Felicity. She seems to make up for where he lacks. Felicity is smart which balances out his idiocy, she's emotionally strong which balances out his weakness, and she believes in him which balances out his insecurities. But I suppose that's just me. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by wonderwall

[Shanna]

Not just you ;)

I've been doing a netflix rewatch and one of the things I really love about Oliver is his 'perplexed' face. This is sa too, but some if his expressions really crack me up.

I definitely think he can be dim, but as mentioned in an emotional way. He's clearly intelligent, he is just psychologically damaged. He takes too much on his shoulders. I find him fascinating, and I love how honest he is with felicity and Diggle. I just wish he would have been honest with Thea.

[Password]

I definitely think he can be dim, but as mentioned in an emotional way. He's clearly intelligent, he is just psychologically damaged. He takes too much on his shoulders. I find him fascinating, and I love how honest he is with felicity and Diggle. I just wish he would have been honest with Thea.

This so much.

[rue721]

I agree that Oliver makes decisions with his heart rather than his head. I don't think that's stupid, even though it can be risky. Also, making decisions with his heart seems like an improvement over making them with the part of the anatomy it seemed like he was guided by before getting onto the Gambit.

 

I'm not sure whether he prioritizes emotions out of idealism (which is what it seemed like on the island, when he remembered the line from the Odyssey but wouldn't let himself be rescued from the island without contacting Yao Fei) or if that's just his personality and how he thinks.

 

I just wish he would have been honest with Thea.

 

Do you mean in Corto Maltese, when she was hinting so strongly that he needed to come clean to her? In their heart-to-heart there, I actually think he *was* being honest -- more so than if he'd started blabbing about Arrow-man-of-mystery. He told Thea a really important but horrible secret about himself (about *Oliver,* not the Arrow) and their family (who her father really was:  a man who would sacrifice himself for his child, just like their mother did), and he did it because he felt she needed to know. I didn't feel like he was letting himself off easy or just distracting her in the moment.

 

I also think that he had his priorities straight. What mattered right then was that they're a family and that Thea *is* a Queen and her *real* father is a man who loved his children enough to sacrifice his life for them. I think Oliver did the right thing by talking to her about that, even though it was obviously difficult for them both. Before seeing that scene, I would have thought of a discussion like that as just a stall tactic, but by the end of watching it, I personally felt like the Arrow secret identity stuff was irrelevant in comparison to what they'd actually discussed.

 

In general, though, I let Oliver off the hook for not discussing things from the five years he was away or even what he does as the Arrow now. I would think that especially the stuff from the first couple seasons' worth of flashbacks is not the kind of thing that anyone would want to relive more than they have to, and definitely not with their *kid sister.* The point of being the Arrow is at least partly to cope with that stuff and protect the rest of Oliver's life from getting contaminated/ruined by it, too, so telling Thea about the Arrow would kind of defeat the purpose of even being the Arrow ever in the first place. As long as he gets to have someone who *doesn't* know him as the Arrow, his old life as Oliver is sort of protected and not contaminated (in that, that's still the Oliver that Thea sees when she looks at him -- one not ruined by the Island). Even though it seems like his alter ego is pretty much an open secret or just plain out in the open with everyone at this point, I think it makes sense that he wouldn't want to acknowledge that (to Thea) as a way to sort of savor the last bit of time he has where there's a bit of not-Island-contaminated Oliver left. Of course the acknowledgement is going to have to come soon, but imo it's going to be bittersweet and I'm not particularly looking forward to it.

 

Oliver isn't perfect. His 5 years away ruined him but also made him a better man. There's a lot to love about Oliver Queen but the man is not perfect. This is why I love him with Felicity. She seems to make up for where he lacks. Felicity is smart which balances out his idiocy, she's emotionally strong which balances out his weakness, and she believes in him which balances out his insecurities. But I suppose that's just me.

 

I like Oliver and Felicity together, but I think that Oliver's reaction to the restaurant bombing made sense for him as a character and that it would have been OOC for him to shrug that off and keep up with the dating. Starting a relationship with Felicity is going to be different for him than it was with Sara, because with Sara, Oliver could just be the person he was on the Island, which for him at the point that Sara came back was probably like slipping into a comfortable old pair of jeans (not at all to denigrate Sara, I think that's why she wanted to be with him, too). He seemed like he had a lot of trouble adjusting when he came back, in the first season or so, and I get why it would be a relief to slip back to being his "normal" self with Sara and get a break from that adjustment process. With Felicity, though, there's no "old self" for him to slip back into -- since she's only known him since he's been back from the Island -- and he can't be the Arrow with her, either. So he's got to figure out this new person for him to be with her, and he pretty much flat out said he was terrified about that and felt very out of his element. I think the restaurant bombing sent him into panic mode and so he needed to go back to what he knew.

 

Tbh, I think that both Felicity and Oliver handled it pretty gracefully. For Oliver in particular (this being his thread rather than Felicity's), maybe my expectations are lower than most, but I was happy that he was open with her that he was just straight up too scared to make any changes or try to grow after all even though his feelings for *her* hadn't changed. That's pretty self-aware and gentle, imo, because it seems to me that most people in Oliver's position would have tried to find a way to make dating being a no-go into Felicity's fault and to sort of scapegoat her in order to not have to confront their own cowardice and fear, or they'd try and push her away very hard so that she'd be the one pulling the plug and they'd get to avoid responsibility/blame that way. Obviously it would have been even better for Oliver not to have been sent into a tailspin by the bombing anyway, but it's pretty in-character that that's where he's at, so I'm OK with that for now.

Edited November 3, 2014 by rue721

[statsgirl]

That's pretty self-aware and gentle, imo, because it seems to me that most people in Oliver's position would have tried to find a way to make dating being a no-go into Felicity's fault and to sort of scapegoat her in order to not have to confront their own cowardice and fear, or they'd try and push her away very hard so that she'd be the one pulling the plug and they'd get to avoid responsibility/blame that way. Obviously it would have been even better for Oliver not to have been sent into a tailspin by the bombing anyway, but it's pretty in-character that that's where he's at, so I'm OK with that for now.

It's good that he didn't make it Felicity's fault ('Look, there was a bombing and you were unconscious and I can't be with someone who goes unconscious at the slightest bombing') but it's also in character with his martyr complex and that's not so admirable.

 

 

What mattered right then was that they're a family and that Thea *is* a Queen and her *real* father is a man who loved his children enough to sacrifice his life for them.

It's a pretty squicky story to have told her, although right in keeping with Thea being kidnapped and having her mother killed in front of her, not to mention Malcolm's training methods.

 

From a family and non-dramatic point of view, I wish he had told her what Isabel told him, that Robert was ready to leave his family and then Thea got hurt and he ditched Isabel to be there for Thea.  A gentler story, and in terms of the overall storyline, it might have loosened her ties to Malcolm a bit.

Edited November 3, 2014 by statsgirl

[rue721]

It's good that he didn't make it Felicity's fault ('Look, there was a bombing and you were unconscious and I can't be with someone who goes unconscious at the slightest bombing') but it's also in character with his martyr complex and that's not so admirable.

 

LOL I was thinking more like just being a huge asshole to her until she would basically be like, "what did I even see in you, you're a horrible person!" and ditched him. Blamed her for the situation getting too frightening for him to go forward with, I mean, not for the bombing. LOL. Though thankfully he didn't start accusing her of the bombing, either. I also think that Felicity handled it well, and straight up told him to that he was going into a tailspin over something that frankly had nothing to do with them as a couple and that he needed to get a grip on himself.

 

I don't think that Oliver has a martyr complex. I think of a "martyr complex" as acting like other people are constantly dragging you into something that ordinarily wouldn't be your problem, like climbing onto your cross. Also, I think that it's not narcissistic when a person is faced with something horrible and that they're powerless to stop to try to take the blame for it, as an attempt to regain a sense of control over it. If something is your fault, then you can just change your behavior and keep it from happening again. If something isn't your fault, you have no reassurance that it's not going to happen at any time and that there will again be no way for you to stop it.

 

As soon as Oliver told Felicity that he felt nervous and out of his element, at the very beginning of the date, a red flag went up because if he's feeling out of control and it's sort of freaking him out, of course he's going to to do something (ridiculous) to try and regain a sense of control and "calm." So then when the bomb went off...yeah, of course he's going to blame himself in order to regain a sense of control and "calm" and retreat back into his same old ways of keeping himself feeling safe/invulnerable/normal/empowered/etc. He's not going to be like, "oh, so now that I'm thoroughly freaked out and it's been smeared in my face how completely powerless I am and how my world can fall apart without any warning and forever, let me be really vulnerable and start dating you, Felicity Smoak!" LOL. It's frustrating, form both Oliver and Felicity's POVs, but I think it's very in-character and that it would be bizarre if Oliver just suddenly was able to shrug something like that off.

 

I actually liked (and thought it was funny) in Corto Maltese when Diggle was basically trying to get Oliver off his back, and Oliver kept insisting on helping him contact the rogue ARGUS agent and finally told Diggle, "I can't vacation like a normal person." So at that point, Diggle relented and let him in on the plan. It's not like Oliver can just let things happen around him, he's always got to be involved and double checking that things are going how he thinks they should go. I think that's just because he's incredibly tense and that makes him into a control freak. Which imo *would* be very difficult to be around 24-7, I don't envy Diggle his job. It's strange to me that Diggle's SL is apparently that he's burnt out, but I guess in a way their SLs are mirroring each other (including with Oliver deciding that he's going to stay single and dedicate himself to his work, while Diggle enjoys his wife and kids and is saying aggravated things like, "don't I already spend enough time with Oliver?" when his wife asks him to talk to some guy while he's vacationing on a tropical island).

[wonderwall]

Oliver is essentially the most emotionally stunted man on the show, and it's funny because his emotions are clearly what drive his decision making skills which is why he tends to make ridiculous and stupid decisions from time to time. I think this is why Oliver needs Diggle and Felicity because they have sound minds, they use logic and critical thinking before they make decisions (although Diggle telling Oliver to continue lying to Thea was so wrong). Oliver counts on them to be there and when they're NOT there, that's when things fall apart. I don't think this is something Oliver will ever fix because how do you fix years of trauma? I think the best thing is for Felicity and Digg to always be there for him and I don't think that's such a bad thing. 

 

So I sort of take back part of my previous statement. Oliver isn't an idiot. He just lets his emotions (which are stunted) take over and make decisions for him which usually leads him to trouble. However, that isn't to say that Oliver doesn't think before he acts. Oliver DOES think, he probably understands the ramifications of his actions and no matter how bad the action is, if he feels strongly enough about it, he'll still do it (aka killing the count, going to kill Slade to get Thea back after he kidnapped her, protecting Malcolm for Thea as well as protecting his vow to Tommy). I guess this is just something everyone has to accept about Oliver. 

[Shanna]

Regarding Thea, I was thinking more about all of season two. Corto Maltese was a step in the right direction and I very much enjoyed their talk. I also think every discussion they have now is Thea testing him to see if he's telling her the truth now so he needs to come clean about the arrow too.

[KirkB]

Also him telling Oliver to let Nyssa kill Merlyn? I thought that was out of character as well.

 

This I disagree with. Diggle did the same sort of thing in season 2. Just for example he was perfectly okay with standing back and letting Sara kill Nyssa. One assassin kills another. He only relented when Oliver pointed out how scary Ra's would be if Nyssa died. He doesn't have a problem killing people when it's necessary and he's also fine with letting the scary people kill each other.

Edited November 3, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

I still think letting Nyssa kill Malcolm would have been the right thing to do. Solved all their problems without getting Ra's on their asses.  Because Malcolm did kill the crew of the Queen's Gambit + 500 people in the Glades + who know who else without a single bit of remorse.  He pulled his bow on Oliver in Corto Maltese.

 

Oliver deciding to save Malcolm is going to cause him all sorts of more trouble this season.

[Genki]

I still think letting Nyssa kill Malcolm would have been the right thing to do. Solved all their problems without getting Ra's on their asses.  Because Malcolm did kill the crew of the Queen's Gambit + 500 people in the Glades + who know who else without a single bit of remorse.  He pulled his bow on Oliver in Corto Maltese.

 

Oliver deciding to save Malcolm is going to cause him all sorts of more trouble this season.

 

But isn't that the point of being a Hero, not taking the easy way out, especially when it comes to killing?

 

Telling Thea he was alive, was good, even if they were both lying liars who lie. I like that Oliver was trying to claim the city and keep the League out, but could have been done in a less clunky way than "whilst in Starling city, Malcolm Merlyn is under my protection."

 

I also believe, as other have already mentioned,  that not killing Malcolm undoes Oliver's last words to Tommy are lies, which I think weighed heavily on him all through season 2. And of course the Thea connection.

 

I know that the main theme of S3 is "Identity", but I think the secondary underlying theme is Family, like "find another way" was there in S2

 

I really don't get a least trying to lock him up as a token gesture, that would be the right thing to do, but I guess this plays into writing for plot.

 

So for me, Oliver is a really smart man who makes dumb decisions for plot purposes, and usually I hand wave them.

[quarks]

From the "Guilty" thread:

 

It makes sense for Bruce Wayne to be that way because he's weird, traumatized, and highly intelligent...Oliver not so much.

 

 

 

This interests me. I agree that Bruce Wayne is weird, traumatized and highly intelligent.  But I think the same is true for Oliver, at least on the show. (I don't know about the comic books.)

 

Weird: He's running around in green leather shooting at people and now has an arrow that shoots out a boxing glove. This seems to be the very definition of weird.

 

Traumatized: Ok, he doesn't have Bruce Wayne's trauma of watching both of his parents get shot right in front of him. That said, he watched his father commit suicide right in front of him, endured two years of torture and deprivation on an island, endured whatever he is enduring now in Hong Kong which at least seems to include hot showers and food, so, plus, learned that his mother was part of a major criminal conspiracy, watched his mother get killed right in front of him, watched his best friend die right in front of him, watched a lover get killed right in front of him, and two other ex-lovers get killed more or less right in front of him, and had to endure Laurel (er, sorry). He has scars all over his body. So traumatized.

 

Intelligent: This one is more questionable. In show we were told that Oliver was kicked out of four universities, and the implication was that he only got into those universities because his family money, not his SAT scores. As far as we know he's only read one book. So as far as education and book smarts are concerned, there's not much there. 

 

Against this, however, we know now that he speaks at least four languages fluently (English, Mandarin, Russian and Spanish). We know that he's a very fast learner, and that he's excellent at putting the pieces together and coming to the correct conclusions - he correctly realized that Roy was hallucinating killing Sara because Roy had seen Sara post the cop-killing incident. He was able to use Slade's bugs against him and trick Slade.  He fights strategically, and is often able to anticipate the bad guys.  And he's often more perceptive than other characters give him credit for.

 

He has limited emotional intelligence, granted, but I think that goes back to the trauma, above.  So I would say that show Oliver, at least, is weird, traumatized and highly intelligent.  Even if he isn't Batman.

[Password]

I'm surprised anyone would say he's not on par with traumatization with Batman. I understand Bruce's parents were murdered in front of him at a young age, but given the amount of loved ones that have died and been killed in front of Oliver's eyes, I'd say trauma is down pat. Not to mention what HE had to do to survive those years. Killing someone as with his very first human kill, is fairly horrible.

It will always bother me how they're destroying this mans faith in anyone sticking around by killing everyone. Not to mention the guilt at being the reason (indirectly) for his loved ones dying. He's actively having to learn and unlearn good and bad habits, cope with losing people and embrace life in its incredible ish storm. Years and years and years of therapy.

It's probably why I have so much more patience with him this year at than last.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Limbo

[dtissagirl]

This interests me. I agree that Bruce Wayne is weird, traumatized and highly intelligent.  But I think the same is true for Oliver, at least on the show. (I don't know about the comic books.)

 

I've always thought this was true as well, but because imho, Arrow!Oliver is written a whole lot more like Bruce Wayne than like comic-book!Oliver.

 

They didn't give him Bruce's genius level brain that never ever stops playing chess with the entire universe, but everything else -- watching his parents die and other traumas, the tortured soul, the weight of the world on his shoulders, the never-ending guilt, the low emotional intelligence, the massive control freakness -- I've always related all of that to Bruce, and not at all to Oliver in the comics.

 

The big difference I see is Bruce gets some perverse pleasure in being all emo all the time. The whole I AM VENGEANCE I AM THE [K]NIGHT thing is not just a schtick, he really IS like that. Arrow!Oliver wants to stop being like that, but doesn't know how to yet.

[El Seed]

Intelligent: This one is more questionable. In show we were told that Oliver was kicked out of four universities, and the implication was that he only got into those universities because his family money, not his SAT scores. As far as we know he's only read one book. So as far as education and book smarts are concerned, there's not much there.

 

Against this, however, we know now that he speaks at least four languages fluently (English, Mandarin, Russian and Spanish). We know that he's a very fast learner, and that he's excellent at putting the pieces together and coming to the correct conclusions - he correctly realized that Roy was hallucinating killing Sara because Roy had seen Sara post the cop-killing incident. He was able to use Slade's bugs against him and trick Slade. He fights strategically, and is often able to anticipate the bad guys. And he's often more perceptive than other characters give him credit for.

 

 

 

I get the feeling that pre-island Oliver wasn't so much dumb as he just didn't apply himself. Considering he came from a ridiculously wealthy family, he probably figured he didn't need to bother because money would buy his way, and I get the feeling Moira and Robert were really lax with him. That changed when the Gambit went down. When he was forced into situations where he needed to learn fast, he tended to rise to the challenge. Money wasn't going to buy him anything on the island, and it's doing jack for him in Hong Kong. He can't afford to be lazy now, because the price is his life. His emotional intelligence is stunted for sure, but considering the years of trauma, I'm surprised it isn't worse.

[rue721]

I get the feeling that pre-island Oliver wasn't so much dumb as he just didn't apply himself.

 

Yes, I think he was undisciplined, not stupid.

 

His emotional intelligence is stunted for sure, but considering the years of trauma, I'm surprised it isn't worse.

 

When you guys say that he's not emotionally intelligent, what do you mean? Honest question, I'm not dis/agreeing.

[statsgirl]

Emotional intelligence (EI) is the ability to monitor one's own and other people's emotions, to discriminate between different emotions and label them appropriately, and to use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior.[1]

 

There are three models of EI. The ability model, developed by Peter Salovey and John Mayer, focuses on the individual's ability to process emotional information and use it to navigate the social environment.[2] The trait model as developed by Konstantin Vasily Petrides, "encompasses behavioral dispositions and self perceived abilities and is measured through self report".[3] The final model, the mixed model is a combination of both ability and trait EI. It defines EI as an array of skills and characteristics that drive leadership performance, as proposed by Daniel Goleman.[4]

 

Studies have shown that people with high EI have greater mental health, exemplary job performance, and more potent leadership skills. Markers of EI and methods of developing it have become more widely coveted in the past few decades. In addition, studies have begun to provide evidence to help characterize the neural mechanisms of emotional intelligence.[5][6][7]

 

 

I read Goleman's book when it came out.  Interesting stuff.

 

I think Oliver was pretty good at reading emotional cues pre-island because he could use them to manipulate people and remain the charming young Oliver Queen. For example, he didn't confront Laurel about not wanting to move in with her because that would have led to a nasty scene; he sabotaged it instead. He certainly knew how to manipulate both his parents.

 

During the five years away, these were skills that were of no use to him.  Fyers or Waller didn't care if he was charming; Yao Fei and Slade were trying to teach him to survive.

 

I think as he matures and grows as an adult, he'll learn to use his emotional intelligence skills again. He already has when he wouldn't abandon Roy and when he told Felicity to go home and talk to her mother, he's just not at the stage of Advanced EI in relationships yet.

Edited November 14, 2014 by statsgirl

[fantique]

I have to say that I like that I can completely understand Oliver's behaviour this season. I know where he's coming from and I feel that the character has his ticks, his bad habits which I will call him out on but i don't feel any of his behaviour is coming out of nowhere. I also think that this is the first time that the Big Bad and a lot of the villains are not tailored to him and don't have a history with him so he doesn't have all that foreknowledge and certainty that he had with the previous seasons and we can see him figuring things out more whereas before it's just that he would reveal things little by little. 

 

This season's Oliver is my favourite by far. Yes he repeats some mistakes because of his defence mechanisms but he also is at least realising that his method is not a long term viable solution. I liked him before but it was more that I enjoyed SA's acting and what his character did in the story but now I love Oliver himself. Because I am seeing more genuine bonds forming and I have a clear handle on who he is and he is starting to become. I also love seeing him in civilian clothing and not all businessman or Arrow. I just feel like the walls are down and as an audience member Oliver is letting me in. I liked that he was dark and traumatised at the beginning of Arrow because it was logical he would be closed up with rare moments of lightness but I appreciate the idea that he is not content to wallow and take some masochistic pleasure in torturing himself. I know in GA he is a very sarcastic and witty character and I can see that's where they are taking him. I am so over brooding heroes (Actually I was never into them in the first place, brooding is not a positive adjective people! It literally means pouting and sulking all the time and going over what suck in their own head.)

 

Basically I like him a lot more now. I also like that SA is just as good in a lighter tone scene as in a dark one. Because some actors seem to only pull off the dark and tortured soul thing. I also want to buy into the happiness of a character. It also makes the darker moments more poignant.

 

ETA: Completely shallow note am I the only one finding SA way more attractive this season? I intellectually knew he was good looking before and has a hot body but he just seems more... there is a "je ne sais quoi". ETA2 (responding to myself, ie beginning of insanity): I think he looks better because he smiles more than once every 4 episodes.

Edited November 14, 2014 by fantique

[Kordi]

I have to say that I like that I can completely understand Oliver's behaviour this season. I know where he's coming from and I feel that the character has his ticks, his bad habits which I will call him out on but i don't feel any of his behaviour is coming out of nowhere.

This is an interesting remark, because I have to admit that I sometimes have a hard time understanding Oliver this season: On the one hand, he declares in 3x01 he can only be ARROW and not OLIVER QUEEN and therefore, he ends his "private" relationship with Felicity immediately after the incident in the restaurant. Then, in 3x03, we see him telling his sister Thea that he needs her and wants to be together with her, because otherwise they both wouldn't be really alive.(Three cheers for this insight: After all, OLIVER QUEEN is alive! There is more to him than just the ARROW!) In 3x05, he even moves in with Thea in order to have a family and a healthy brother-sister-relationship. (Side note: All of a sudden he is o.k. to live in an apartment that Thea rented with Malcolm's "blood money"? Where does this Change of mind come from?) However, at the same time, he continues to hold Felicity back at arm's length, and with regard to her he keeps his no-OLIVER-QUEEN-but-only-ARROW-policy. Why this difference? Is it because Thea doesn't know that he is the ARROW so he can be together with her without giving up what seems so important to him, i.e. compartmentalizing the two parts of his life (private life vs. hero life)? But then, if he doesn't want to have Felicity being part of his OLIVER-QUEEN-life, how is it that he gives Felicity's mum SUCH a warm welcome in 3x05 which was way beyond what politeness or prudence requests? Well, maybe Oliver Queen is just full of contradicting dynamics, but then, somehow this all confuses me.

Finally, with regard to the last episode (3x06): Shouldn't he have learned by now to be less hypocritical (see his interactions with Ted) and paternalizing (see his interactions with Laurel)? It annoys me that he somehow seems to be making the same mistakes over and over again...

[fantique]

@kordi: I guess the way I look at it as given his history, I can understand his hang ups and they are not easy ones to overcome.

 

• WRT Thea: I just think that at the end of 3x02, he realised that resigning to die in the cave is not ok. That he is not making things better for himself (which he knew) or for others (which he is just now figuring out). That doesn't mean he will all of a sudden be A-ok to have a mature relationship but that means that he values having stronger bonds with the people who are a part of his life. Starting with his sister is a logical step. Even if he doesn't completely succeed, she's his sister and family is forever. Opening up presents less of a risk to lose her. With Felicity, he doesn't feel right, after she declared being done with the waiting, trying and failing because if they really try and it doesn't work he doesn't just lose a girlfriend, he loses one of his best friends and a partner. He does even try to broach the subject in 3x05 by very obviously implying that he still has feelings for her and she rejects him. She changes the subject and he gets the message that she's not ready to go there again. Moving in with Thea in my mind was about keeping close tabs on her. I think that while he hates the idea of any dependence on Merlyn, he can make sure that by being close to her he can run interference should Merlyn try to contact Thea. Obviously we know they're in cahoots but to him he's protecting someone who doesn't know everything.
• WRT Laurel/Wildcat: Him being a hypocrite is not new but it has always related to someone close to him being hurt. In the Arrow after show, SA said Sara died 2 weeks ago. That's nothing. He just lost someone he always thought would be able to hold their own. He has associated being a Vigilante with untimely death. He knows how much Sara wanted to protect Laurel. In light of that it would be strange for him to say to Laurel "Oh! Good for you! You're following Sara's path :)!" because he knows that Laurel is not just trying to learn to defend herself, he knows it's about vengeance. He saw her getting bloodthirsty and going after Sara's killer is going after dangerous people. Wildcat to him is someone who is encouraging Laurel on that path. Even though Wildcat himself saw how dangerous it can be and what it can do to people. Oliver does not know the guy and doesn't trust him. I think that he is not so much hung up about killing so much as murder. Diggle has killed people, he thought Wildcat was a deranged murderer and, aside from that, after they realise he's innocent, is also someone encouraging Laurel without knowing the full story and what kind of situation she's trying to get into. I have seen no one on this forum being approving of Laurel's methods. Why shouldn't we expect him to feel the same? The only part where she was right was that using the untrained excuse doesn't work because he didn't want to train her. But even that is actually explainable because the level that she would need to achieve before he deemed her safe would take a lot of time daily for years, so how would that help with Sara's murder? Because that's all she seems to be about, vengeance. Not a hero/vigilante in training like Roy, she seemed to be content with the "You catch 'em, I cook 'em" approach. She literally told him she wants training to go after Sara's murderer. She thinks helping people is taking a bat to a wife-beater while clearly saying she's there on the behalf of the victim. She thinks boxing is enough. Like, are you kidding me? She was surprised when Ted threw in something other than a punch when training. Of course finding out that her idea of training is just boxing a couple hours a day while working is alarming to him because that shows she doesn't understand the gravity of the situation. IDK I guess to me that made sense. Yes, his tone and dismissal of her efforts were not a good way to go about it and it felt too much like he thought she doesn't know what she's doing but the thing is, mansplaining and patronising or not, he is right. She doesn't know what it truly involves at this point. Which is why he went to Wildcat to see if he could persuade Laurel to stop because he himself has seen the effects it can have on one's life. 

 

Wow, that's too long. Had too much coffee and rambling at the speed of light here.

Edited November 14, 2014 by fantique

[rue721]

Re:  Thea in particular

 

Even if he doesn't completely succeed, she's his sister and family is forever. Opening up presents less of a risk to lose her.

 

I agree. Another essential aspect of it, though, imo, is that Oliver has a duty to Thea. He's her older brother, her only remaining family. Also, I would think that he probably believes it's his fault that Slade swore a vendetta against him, came to the city, kidnapped her and Moira, and murdered Moira right in front of her, too. I don't think it's his fault, but I also think that's a very normal thing to believe -- Slade *was* using his family to get at him, that was Slade's plan in a nutshell. I think Oliver also feels the need to atone to Thea for that. Even the thing of Robert killing himself for Oliver -- in a sense, Oliver took Robert away from Thea, too. I don't think that, for Oliver, it's just about wanting to have a stronger relationship with Thea (though imo he also does want that), it's also about *needing* to take care of her, because it's his *duty* to take care of her. Especially now that she has nobody else in her life left to do it (also arguably Oliver's fault -- for Robert forfeiting his life for Oliver's, for Slade killing Moira, maybe even for trying to break up her and Roy). In Oliver's perspective, I would imagine that what happened with Slade is an example of Oliver failing to take care of Thea and to protect her, and would expect that fears of how that could happen again and plans to stop it have got to be running through Oliver's mind. I would expect him to be as clingy as she'll let him get away with being right now because of all that, and it's no shock to me that he wouldn't let his desire to stand on this or that principle (like not taking Malcolm's money) in fact cut him off from her (and make him run the risk of failing her again and maybe even losing her).

 

ETA:

 

I don't think that it's about Thea being a delicate flower and having to be protected, etc -- she's capable and I don't find Oliver's attitude toward her condescending. I mean that he's got a duty to her in the fundamental filial* sense, as her family/brother, and he's also got a duty to her because horrible things have happened to her (like, she's been orphaned) that are his fault (in his POV, I think).

 

*The definition just talks about the duties a child has toward their parent, but I was thinking of the duties that someone has to their family in a broader sense. I don't know the word for that, though?

Edited November 14, 2014 by rue721

[Kordi]

Thank you, @fantique and @rue721, for your comments! Gives me something to think about this weekend :D!

[tv echo]

Much has been made of Oliver's controlling personality - but Oliver wasn't always this way.  

 

Flashbacks show that pre-island Oliver was pretty lazy and weak.  He had a strong, controlling mother, Moira, who took care of him and cleaned up his messes (like getting a girl pregnant).  He had a girlfriend, Laurel, who turned a blind eye to his infidelity.  Laurel is also a strong, controlling woman, who had their life together all planned out.  Most likely, if he had not gone on that fateful trip, he would've married Laurel and passed from the control of his mother to the control of his wife.  And if he ever resented that control, he would get back in passive-aggressive ways, like cheating on her with other women.

 

Then during his five years away, he had no control over his life or himself.  Things were done to him - on the island, on the freighter, in Hong Kong, etc. - that he couldn't control and that he could only react to.  Things happened to people he cared about that he couldn't control - his father, Shado, Sara, even Slade.  I suspect we'll find out that he returned to the island alone so that he wouldn't have to watch anyone else he cared about die.

 

So Oliver in the present day understandably wants to control everything and everyone in his life, is reluctant to surrender control to anyone else, and is overprotective of those he loves - hence, his domineering attitude to Thea, Laurel, Diggle and Felicity.  It makes his willingness to use Felicity as bait last season to stop Slade even more "unthinkable".  And it makes the notion of Oliver and Laurel having any romantic compatibility now even more unbelievable because they are now both controlling personalities.

 

However, I think Oliver is struggling with his tendency to control.  By working with Diggle and Felicity, then Sara and Roy, he's learned to trust other people, to delegate some, and to give up a little bit of control.  But it's a real struggle for him.

Edited November 14, 2014 by tv echo

[quarks]

By "limited emotional intelligence," I meant that most of Oliver's major mistakes on the show so far have been emotional ones, not intellectual ones, and ones that the script has often drawn attention to. This has been true right from the pilot: Oliver decides he has to go see Laurel, even though Tommy - established as the stable, not traumatized for five years character - tells him this is a bad idea; Laurel then says in script this is a bad idea, establishing that when it comes to people Oliver wants to make an emotional connection to, he makes bad decisions. We then proceed through several episodes of Thea, Moira, Diggle, Laurel, Helena, and Felicity all telling him or us that he makes terrible emotional decisions. This means that by the time we reach the scene where Oliver tells Roy to break up with Thea, arguably one of Oliver's worst mistakes on the show so far, the show doesn't even have to tell us that since this is Oliver, this is going to be a very, very bad move. Sure enough, Oliver's extremely bad advice leads to Roy losing it and killing a cop and Thea getting kidnapped by Slade, with everything that goes from there.

 

The show didn't even have to tell us what a bad idea that was - we saw it play out in that episode. And it's mistakes like that, I think, that can make Oliver come off (in my opinion) as really, really stupid at times. But these mistakes generally come from an emotional place, not an intellectual place. When he's not emotionally involved, he can and does think rapidly and clearly. I think that was part of the reason he decided to call things off with Felicity - on some level, I think he realizes this, and beyond Oliver being horrible at relationships in general which is why women keep dumping him and I keep agreeing with them when they do, I think he is concerned that added emotional involvement with Felicity will lead to the sort of clouded to flat out wrong emotional thinking that he's demonstrated with others. Which of course is another emotional mistake - he's demonstrated that he can outhink his enemies even when she's right next to him saying "I believe in you" and hugging him.   But he's not thinking clearly - because emotions.

[Carrie Ann]

After saying he couldn't be Oliver and the Arrow, all he's done this season is deepen his relationships: with Thea, Roy, Diggle, even Laurel in some respects, despite their conflicts. Felicity is the one person who remains cut off from him, but even so, I thought their relationship progressed in some ways in Ep 5.

 

You're all making good points about why this is happening. I think (hope?) that in some ways, "I thought I could be Oliver and the Arrow, but I can't," and "One of these days, it's going to be me," were sort of the last gasp of that kind of thinking. Starting with the end of Sara, all we've seen from Oliver is the opposite of that. "I just need Thea to call me back." "I don't want to die down here." "I need you." "If we're not together, we're not really living." "And you know how I feel about her." "Don't abandon me./Never." "I'm always going to look out for you, because I care about you."

 

He's actually shown a lot of emotional growth this season. It just happens to be growth away from his big thesis statement from the premiere.

What I don't understand, but look forward to seeing, is how we go from this level of being in touch with his feelings and need for human connection, to his absence in Starling.

[El Seed]

When you guys say that he's not emotionally intelligent, what do you mean? Honest question, I'm not dis/agreeing.

 

 

statsgirl and quarks answered pretty close to how I would have, so I won't clutter the thread with an answer that would basically be repeating what they said.

 

After saying he couldn't be Oliver and the Arrow, all he's done this season is deepen his relationships: with Thea, Roy, Diggle, even Laurel in some respects, despite their conflicts. Felicity is the one person who remains cut off from him, but even so, I thought their relationship progressed in some ways in Ep 5.

 

You're all making good points about why this is happening. I think (hope?) that in some ways, "I thought I could be Oliver and the Arrow, but I can't," and "One of these days, it's going to be me," were sort of the last gasp of that kind of thinking. Starting with the end of Sara, all we've seen from Oliver is the opposite of that. "I just need Thea to call me back." "I don't want to die down here." "I need you." "If we're not together, we're not really living." "And you know how I feel about her." "Don't abandon me./Never." "I'm always going to look out for you, because I care about you."

 

He's actually shown a lot of emotional growth this season. It just happens to be growth away from his big thesis statement from the premiere.

 

 

 

I think it was the EPs that said the theme for this season is identity, but so far I'd say the following line fits pretty well (with all due respect to Tim Robbins, say it in your head in Morgan Freeman's voice): "Get busy living, or get busy dying." Through most of the episode "Sara," Oliver was pretty keyed to the latter. He even described life as a march towards death. But at the end when he told Diggle "I don't want to die down here," he was admitting he wants the former. Since then he's made a bit of progress, and personally I thought it was important that he started with Thea since she's the only family he has left.

 

But then, if he doesn't want to have Felicity being part of his OLIVER-QUEEN-life, how is it that he gives Felicity's mum SUCH a warm welcome in 3x05 which was way beyond what politeness or prudence requests?

 

 

Oliver was so happy and excited to meet Donna because he's in love with Felicity. When you're in love with someone you want to know their family, where they came from, etc. This was a chance for Oliver to get an idea of who Felicity was before he ever met her. Even though Oliver said they couldn't be together now, he never stopped being in love with her, so meeting her mom was a happy moment for him.