The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

I think there's a difference between being theatrical and being so campy that it comes off as secondhand embarrassment. With Robert Carlyle, even though he'll chew the scenery, he does so in a way where you totally believe it's Rumple on screen behaving realistically. Pan was another scenery chewer who didn't take it overboard. I like those kinds of performance a lot. But I feel like Bex and Lana fall into the latter category where all I see is the actresses looking at the script and going, "How over-the-top and cheesy can I take this?" I actually think Bex has improved a lot since her Season 3 campiness and I enjoyed her performance more in Season 5 because she toned back the camp and added more layers to her acting. Conversely, it seems like Lana has taken Regina to the opposite spectrum and has made her performance more cartoonish over the seasons.

The other issue I have with the scenery chewing is that the show takes itself so damn seriously. If this was a more lighthearted show with more comedic aspects than dramatic aspects, the scenery chewing would fit right in. But since the writers care more about melodramatic and dramatic scenes, the scenery chewing can sometimes feel out of place or like whiplash when the majority of the characters who aren't Rumple, Regina, or Zelena all have to act so serious and dramatic all the time. If Hook and Emma and Snow were allowed to act more theatrical, I wouldn't mind the campy villains as much.

I think that's a superficial distinction, to be honest. I can think of dozens of scenes where Rumpel is just as over-the-top as either Regina or Zelena, like how he goes psychotic when Snow won't give him the baby's name in the first episode, or the fight with Charming, taking his coat as payment in one episode for the hair, blowing up the Fairy Godmother, his reaction to Snow thinking he gave her Excalibur, etc. And Pan and Zelena are acted very similarly, to the point that they looked related to me in 5B. The only difference was Robbie Kay's eyebrows nearly shooting off his face in most of his scenes.

But I do agree that the show would be better-served with more comedic moments. Although I think Zelena/Regina generally provide the majority of the comedy on the show at this point...

[Camera One]

For me, I actually don't mind the over-the-topness of Rumple nor even Regina.  Right from 3B, I just didn't find Zelena fun to watch as a villain, lacking the "deliciousness" of the other two, for unknown reasons.  The Evil Queen crashing Snow's wedding was epic while Wicked's first appearance left me unimpressed.  It could be because she was over-used right from the start, to the point I became bored of her (I also hated how everyone was made stupid so she could "blend in").  Another reason was the aforementioned monologues, which were either really poorly written, or she couldn't pull them off.  Third was her whiny woe-is-me attitude regarding how life was so much better for Regina than her, which was in combo with the monologues, since half of them are repetitive and about this topic.  Fourthly and maybe most importantly, I actually could not buy her grudge right from the very start, so maybe this is why Zelena's tirades against Regina are so much more irritating than Regina's tirades against Snow (which was easy to believe since The Evil Queen naturally hated Snow White).  That's why Zelena lost me halfway through 5A when she reverted back to whining about Regina.  And despite feeling for Zelena somewhat in "Our Decay", they also overused her and overplayed the weepiness.  Though I suppose A&E did score a "win" in convincing most people that Zelena deserves a place in this show.  Personally, I just can't take yet another "is he/she gonna to backslide" subplot, as predicted above.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I've been over scenery chewing since after S2. Except for Rumple. It just fits his character so well! I too think that EQ!Regina has become too campy in recent seasons. And Zelena's crazy eyes are just cringe-worthy to me. 

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I actually could not buy her grudge right from the very start, so maybe this is why Zelena's tirades against Regina are so much more irritating than Regina's tirades against Snow (which was easy to believe since The Evil Queen naturally hated Snow White).  

I don't know, going by this forum, Regina's tirades against Snow must be very irritating. LOL Although I think this is where the Internet often doesn't represent reality, because the showrunners and likely the executives (I'm betting they pushed for more focus on the character in season 2) considered Regina the breakout character of this show. I'm guessing the same people who enjoyed Regina enjoy Zelena. I personally think both their actresses are wonderful at portraying the characters, hitting the campiness, comedy, and then the more realistic notes (Regina's irrational hatred of Snow and her struggle to do good, Zelena's love affair with Hades and struggle to be good for her child). I personally prefer them to Robert Carlyle, but I don't consider him a bad actor.

Edited September 2, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[KingOfHearts]

23 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I've been over scenery chewing since after S2. Except for Rumple. It just fits his character so well! I too think that EQ!Regina has become too campy in recent seasons. And Zelena's crazy eyes are just cringe-worthy to me. 

If EQ!Regina from S1/S2 was coming back for S6, I would probably be more excited. If it's just Shattered Sight or jester-killing EQ, it's not worth it.

[KAOS Agent]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Robert Carlyle is on the record as telling the showrunners to limit Rumpelstiltskin because he recognized that a little bit of Crazy!Rumpel goes a long way. That greatly helped to limit his screentime as the imp and helped keep him from getting stale - at least for a few seasons. Frankly, six seasons in, it's hard to make any of the more campy villains new and interesting because we've seen them too much. Cruella is fun for me because she is used sparingly and only appeared in two half seasons with a nine month break in between. All Cruella all the time would get old too.

I know I'm different from a lot of viewers in that I was drawn into Season 1 because of the Storybrooke aspect of things. I loved Gold and Regina and found them much more menacing than the Evil Queen and Rumpelstiltskin. The campy flashbacks were the least interesting part to me. Obviously, the show decided that the camp was best and upped that along with plot, plot, plot and dumped the character moments and the more subtle evilness of the villains in later seasons. Storybrooke Regina, Rumpel, Cora and Pan all managed to at least keep their evil ways and/or their plans a secret. This allowed the others to seem less like do nothing morons for nine episodes each half season. The Evil Queen rather dramatically announced her plans and note that the heroes look like morons for sitting around during Snow's pregnancy doing nothing to try to stop her. They did the same damn thing when Zelena pulled the same dramatics. Same thing, different season. 

For me, this show pulled a bait and switch. It started out as a show about good defeating evil with effective heroes (in the present) who fought against evil and then morphed into the villain show. Villains are evil fun and then they cry and it's so sad. Meanwhile the heroes are boring morons who need to be taken down a peg. So Auntie Em gets dumped into the River of Lost Souls, Cora goes to heaven. Yay villains! Fuck you, loving aunt. 

Edited September 3, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

For me, this show pulled a bait and switch. It started out as a show about good defeating evil with effective heroes (in the present) who fought against evil and then morphed into the villain show. Villains are evil fun and then they cry and it's so sad. Meanwhile the heroes are boring morons who need to be taken down a peg. So Auntie Em gets dumped into the River of Lost Souls, Cora goes to heaven. Yay villains! Fuck you, loving aunt. 

It's turned into a whine-fest for villains. How many "tragically misunderstood" villains with daddy/mommy issues are on this show now? That's another reason I liked Cruella--she really was the monster she seemed all along. I agree that using her sparingly was a smart move by the writers. 

Sadly the writers think giving sad backstories to villains, and making Snow White and Prince Charming evil babynappers is complex character writing. I just ends up ruining all charatcers all around. 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Rumsy4

[TheGreenKnight]

I like almost all of the villains' backstories except for Maleficent, but I think their Maleficent generally sucks all around. Ursula's backstory was nice, but I had a hard time seeing her as more than a minor antagonist, partly because the actress was a failure, imo, and partly because the show seemed to care about her the least of all the villains in 4B (and there were 6 of them at the time, not counting Rumpel).

I don't really have a probably with the backstories in general because at least they don't really go in the direction of, say, Disney's Maleficent, where you find out that, no, the villain was the persecuted good guy/hero all along and the heroes were the villain. Their backstories really just explain why the villain acts the way they do. Pan, Cora, Arthur, and Cruella's backstories, for instance, didn't make them sympathetic at all; same with the Author and Hades, although they weren't given flashback episodes to the moment they became villains like the others. The characters on the show haven't used the backstories to excuse the villains either. I mean, yes, we have characters acknowledging what a monster Cora was, but the reasons they tried to put up with and reform Regina had nothing to do with that. The same with Zelena; she's only being absorbed into the heroes group because she's chosen to try not to do evil anymore, not because everybody feels sorry for her. Ursula and Ingrid are the only two with backstories that make them more sympathetic to the heroes. (And I guess Maleficent and the eggnapping, but even that happened after she was already evil and it wasn't the motivation for why she cursed Aurora or Aurora's mother, just for why she hated the Charmings.) And it's pretty clear all the characters detest Rumpel, even Belle at this point.

Edited September 3, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[KingOfHearts]

After the movie Maleficent and Once's treatment of her, I don't find her that amazing of an iconic villain. She's still great in the animated Sleeping Beauty, but that version of her won't be getting an accurate adaptation any time soon.

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

After the movie Maleficent and Once's treatment of her, I don't find her that amazing of an iconic villain. She's still great in the animated Sleeping Beauty, but that version of her won't be getting an accurate adaptation any time soon.

To me, she's still iconic solely because of the animated movie.  She is chilling and the perfect delicious villainess.  I'm a little surprised she has been so difficult to replicate.  I agree that the movie and Once's treatment of her has been lame, completely unable to capture her essence despite the costume.  I wonder if the horned costume makes it difficult to take her seriously.  

Another villainess who have not been done justice in real life is Lady Tremaine.  Her eyes and voice are plain evil in the animated movie.  The "Once Upon a Time in Wonderland" version was nowhere close, and even Cate Blanchett couldn't pull it off.  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

To me, she's still iconic solely because of the animated movie.  She is chilling and the perfect delicious villainess.  I'm a little surprised she has been so difficult to replicate.  I agree that the movie and Once's treatment of her has been lame, completely unable to capture her essence despite the costume.  I wonder if the horned costume makes it difficult to take her seriously.  

The main problem is that both recent adaptations woobified her. In the animated version, she was so relentlessly evil and that's what made her so iconic. Her entire revenge quest was based on not being invited to a party. Who is that wickedly vain? The horns wouldn't be so silly if she could be as demonic as what they're trying to represent. 

Interestingly enough, the animated versions of Maleficent and Lady Tremaine have very similar facial designs. They give the same death stares that creep into your soul. I'm pretty sure they were voiced by the same actress as well.

Edited September 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Instead of the eggbaby stuff, which seemed solely designed to make Snowing and Emma feel bad for what happened to Lily, I would have preferred to see a series of flashbacks detailing the history and battles between Maleficent, revealed as the Black Fairy, and Blue/The Fairies, which could lead the way to the reveal of Merlin as The Sorcerer in the 4B finale, and providing a better explanation for The Author.  It might have been more interesting to see Snowing trying to help Aurora's parents and Blue to stop Maleficent's plans to put her daughter under the Sleeping Curse, but ultimately failing, and having this be the arc to show Snow and Charming's early struggles as rulers and their lack of confidence.  Perhaps we could have had a stronger Maleficent vs. the pathetic version who needed Regina to get her groove back.  The only thing I can't figure out would be how to link Lily into the narrative so we'd still get those wonderful (snerk) "Emma: The Teen Years" episodes.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Lady Tremaine had no magic but I feel she could have made mincemeat out of the Queens of Darkness.

[KingOfHearts]

I heard this quote today: "It's more important for a character to be motivated than to be sympathetic or relatable." When it comes to the Evil Queen or Rumple, that rings true. I don't find EQ sympathetic, because she's a psycho, but she's still engaging because she's highly motivating. She's dictating her own destiny and not letting the plot control her. In Rumple's case, the writers have tried too much to make him look sympathetic while contradicting his betraying nature. When he has a plan, like finding Bae or summoning the forces of a Hat, he's more entertaining. Villains don't have to be woobified for audiences to enjoy watching them. You can have complexity without sacrificing their identities. 

Redeemed villains can work. I'm not saying that all of them should stay evil. But their redemption should be fueled by character development, not by the needs of the plot.

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Redeemed villains can work. I'm not saying that all of them should stay evil. But their redemption should be fueled by character development, not by the needs of the plot.

I think the redemption needs to be just as motivated as the villainy for it to really work. Why do they want to be redeemed? Do they really want actual redemption or do they want to skip the consequences of their villainy? Rumple never really changes and isn't actually redeemed because he doesn't want to change. He wants to have Belle in his life, but he also wants to continue being the all-powerful Dark One, and therefore his attempt at redemption is half-hearted. That means any stories about him trying to be better are going to be pretty weak. Ingrid's evil was motivated by her desire to not be alone, to have others like her and to get rid of anyone who could treat her like a freak. When she realized the truth about her sisters, that same motivation turned to undoing her bad acts, which gave her a kind of redemption (though short-lived). This is why Regina's redemption story is kind of lackluster and comes and goes. In 2A, she didn't want to be like her mother and wanted to be a better mother to Henry, so it was a stronger story. Since then, most of the time it comes across like her just not wanting to be treated like a villain. We don't really know why she's changing. She hasn't really admitted she was in the wrong to blame Snow. If she could get the things she wants and win while being evil, would she? Since we don't know and can't tell, that makes it a weaker story. On the other hand, Hook seems to be highly motivated to change and redeem himself, not so much so that others will like and accept him, but so he can live with himself. He's been forgiven by a lot of his former victims, but he's still not okay with it. You get the feeling he'd want to change even if no one ever gave him credit for it or even if he no longer had these people in his life for him to worry about impressing them.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Since then, most of the time it comes across like her just not wanting to be treated like a villain. We don't really know why she's changing. She hasn't really admitted she was in the wrong to blame Snow. If she could get the things she wants and win while being evil, would she? Since we don't know and can't tell, that makes it a weaker story. 

Regina's reasoning for redeeming herself seems to only be so people will eat her lasagna. She craves attention and affirmation, and if she does "heroic" deeds, her cheerleading squad surrounds. She doesn't even do anything particularly good - she just has to say she wants to change and that life isn't fair. Emma, Henry and Snow flock to her. If she actually cared about the people around her, she wouldn't want to do evil. But after everything, she still has selfish impulses and lacks empathy. If she could get her way by murdering and casting curses, she would do it. In her eyes, that method is just more convenient. (And in some cases on this show, it really is.)

Why would Regina want to be a hero, anyway? Heroes are killed, punished, humiliated, and torn from their lovers. Villains don't have it much better, but this universe gives them very little reason to switch over.

Edited October 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I don't know why anyone would want to be a hero on this show. You're definitely better off being a villain. Everyone's lives generally suck, but at least as a villain you can act like a normal feeling person and not be castigated for it. Regina seemed to get that in the finale when she talked about how she hates doing good because all it does is lead to loss for her. It seems like she gets off on doing evil (smiling while razing Percival's village, grinning & clapping while torturing Marian) but if she reverts she'll lose Henry, so she does good and suffers for it. Still she struggles with wanting to be evil because then she doesn't have to deal with that pesky thing they call a conscience. It's interesting that the Evil Queen told Emma that she wasn't the worst part of Regina, but the honest part.

Rumpel is in the same boat as the split Evil Queen. He's happy being all powerful and evil. He's also now been honest with Belle that that's what he wants to be and he isn't willing to change. Well yeah. He gets off on power. That's his thing. He wasn't happy at all being free of the Darkness because he was just a regular guy. Would you rather be miserable as a regular person or somewhat satisfied on the rush you get from being an all powerful being? If everyone's life is going to suck, wouldn't you rather be a villain where at least it seems to suck slightly less?

[Mari]

And where you can kill people trying to kill you or people you care about, because self defense is acceptable if you're on team villain.

[KingOfHearts]

5B muddies it further. Hades and Robin met the same fate from two different sides. Gaston and James got throw into the river, but so did Milah and Auntie Em. Blacktooth got sent to hell, but Cora got to ascend to heaven without justice for her crimes. Villains seem to actually have it slightly better than heroes.

One major flaw in the show's universe is that fate is not consistent. There's no god or karma dictating what's good or bad. What makes that exceptionally problematic is the characters throwing terms like "hero" and "villain" around so much. They don't have a belief system to stick with, but they preach like they do. Heroes don't kill, unless it's David killing guards or stabbing a guy who shot Regina an angry look. Villains don't get happy endings, unless it's Regina casting a curse or Cora going into the light. Good always wins, except when it doesn't. I'd say it's mostly a worldbuilding issue. The writers tried to tackle it with the Author arc, but that made it more confusing. It didn't really solve anything.

(Do you know how difficult it is to look at this show without bringing the meta into it? Every time I watch I see A&E's minds turning behind the scenes. I can only draw sense from outside context.)

Edited October 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The villains really do have it better than the heroes. "Villains don't get happy endings" mostly seems to translate to "villains can't have everything they want," which is the same as for the heroes, only the heroes don't spend a lot of time bitching and moaning about how they can't have everything they want and complaining that this means the universe is out to get them. Villains are allowed to defend themselves, react negatively when something bad happens, and complain when something goes wrong, which the heroes aren't allowed to do. When a villain decides that he or she wants to change, they just have to stop doing bad stuff to be considered entirely redeemed, and then everyone has to accept them. Even their former victims will be friends with them, no apologies necessary. They'll be considered saints for just about every good thing they do, even if they're just undoing their own evil. As a bonus, they're still allowed to be sassy and snarky and still allowed to react negatively and complain. If a hero acts like a "good" former villain, they get criticized and have to apologize, while a former villain behaving the same way will be praised. And then in the afterlife, villains seem to have just as good a chance of going to "heaven" as heroes do.

[Shanna Marie]

We've been talking in the "Strange Case" episode thread about Hyde's motives, and that got me thinking about what the villains so far have wanted and what they did to get it. Here's a list off the top of my head:

Regina
Wanted: to kill/harm Snow because she blamed Snow for Daniel's death
Plan: after sending lots of assassins, using poisoned apples, etc., cast the Dark Curse to punish her by making her live an ordinary life
Assessment: strong motive, weird plan that doesn't really track

Rumple
Wanted: Power, to find his son again
Plan: became the Dark One, schemed to get the Dark Curse cast so he could reach the Land Without Magic without losing his power, various efforts to get power, get more power, get his power back, get power that would stay with him in the outside world
Assessment: Strong motive initially, getting a big weak with the repetition

Cora
Wanted: Status, wealth, and power
Plan: Schemed to marry a prince, schemed to kill the queen so her daughter could marry the king, schemed to join her daughter in the World Without Magic where she could defeat Rumple and become the Dark One herself
Assessment: points for focus and persistence, nearly succeeded (though you have to wonder how Henry's older siblings survived -- why didn't she find ways to take out the lineage so he would be king and she could more or less run things?)

Hook
Wanted: Revenge on Rumple
Plan: go to Neverland to gain time, get Dreamshade poison, then reach Rumple in a place where his powers didn't work so he could kill him
Assessment: Would have succeeded if heroes hadn't also needed to stop Cora

Greg and Tamara
Wanted: To end magic (and get revenge on Regina)
Plan: set off the failsafe to destroy Storybrooke, escape through a portal
Assessment: they were being played, so it's hard to judge their actual efforts toward their goal

Pan
Wanted: to revive Neverland with Henry's heart; turn Storybrooke into New Neverland
Plan: set up "Home Office" to scheme to get the Truest Believer brought to him, convince Henry to give him his heart, hitch a ride back to Storybrooke, impersonate Henry to get and cast the Dark Curse
Assessment: came close, the "Home Office" bit was rather elaborate, failed only by underestimating his descendants

Zelena
Wanted: to turn back time and make sure she grew up with the life Regina had, with Regina never being born
Plan: Cast a time travel curse that required baby Snowflake
Assessment: simple motive, effective plan, sabotaged herself by showing her hand before she was ready to act

Ingrid
Wanted: to find her magical "sisters" and get rid of those untrustworthy nonmagical people
Plan: cast Shattered Sight and turn Emma and Elsa against the others
Assessment: she failed to win over Emma and Elsa, would have succeeded in killing others if she hadn't had a change of heart

Queens of Darkness
Wanted: find the Author and get their happy endings
Plan: not much of one, really. Step one: go to Storybrooke, Step three: success!
Assessment: Cruella failed. Ursula got her happy ending via Hook, quit being a villain. Maleficent got hers via Emma bringing her daughter.

Isaac
Wanted: show those heroes they weren't so great
Plan: write alternate reality where he was successful
Assessment: failed

Arthur
Wanted: get the dagger to complete Excalibur and restore his broken kingdom
Plan: hold everyone hostage and force them to hand over the dagger. Not sure how that really tied into all the tethering Merlin stuff or why they couldn't have restored the broken kingdom and saved Emma from the Darkness
Assessment: He got killed randomly, presumably kingdom is still broken?

Nimue
Wanted: to leave the Underworld with the other former Dark Ones
Plan: manipulate Hook into going back to Storybrooke, where he could use Rumple's blood to open a portal from the Underworld, send Storybrookers back to Underworld in place of Dark Ones
Assessment: Still not sure how all that was supposed to work. If Hook couldn't come back because his body had been dead too long, even if there was an exchange, how could Dark Ones who had been dead for a century come back?

Hades
Wanted: to leave the Underworld, rule the world above, keep hope out of the Underworld
Plan: get the Storybrooke crew to leave, make them stay, make Rumple open a portal to bring Zelena's baby, get Zelena to give him a True Love's Kiss, breaking the spell that trapped him, get to Storybrooke and take over
Assessment: all over the map

Hyde
Wanted: revenge on Rumple and Jekyll for killing Mary
Plan: use the Belle Box as a hostage to get Rumple to let him into Storybrooke to follow Jekyll, bring a bunch of Untold Stories people over and turn Storybrooke into a new Land of Untold Stories
Assessment: didn't think about what might happen if he killed his alter ego. Oops.

In general, we've had some villains whose motives made sense and whose plans fit those motives. Some of them were even smart and focused enough that they almost succeeded. And then lately we've been getting a lot of villains who just do a bunch of stuff that doesn't really match their motives.
 

[Mathius]

Sigh.  I miss Hades.  Sure, the writing for him was all over the map, but Greg Germann was so much fun, and the conflict against him was balanced.

For that matter, I miss Sam Witwer as Hyde.  If we're going to be stuck with the EQ for so long, killing him off so early was a mistake.

C'mon, Oded Fehr's Jafar! Get your ass to Storybrooke ASAP!

Edited October 26, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

I agree. I really wish Hades had been imprisoned somehow and became a character in the background that Zelena would visit once in a while (with maybe him reforming around the time of the series finale and them living HEA) and that Hyde had later become Regina's love interest. Actually, thinking about it, with Hades imprisoned somehow, this would make TEQ's suggestions that she to go back to being the WWotW more tempting, because she would get a sister, love, the whole shebang. I guess at this point that neither of those characters will have love interests going forward, which is a bummer. I guess CS is as good as it gets with this show now because I definitely don't ship Rumbelle, blech.

[Mathius]

It certainly would be weird if they don't bring him back somehow.  He and Zelena are confirmed True Loves.  Isn't the whole thing about True Love that the two people who have it will always find their way back to each other, no matter what the odds, those odds including death?  

Of course, they could just kill Zelena and that would reunite them too, but I doubt they're going to do that since they love Rebecca Mader so much.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, Mathius said:

I miss Hades.  Sure, the writing for him was all over the map, but Greg Germann was so much fun, and the conflict against him was balanced.

Hades was one of the many poster children on this series for underdevelopment. We never learned what his conflict with Zeus was all about and how/why he got stuck in the Underworld. We just know that it was apparently bad enough that Zeus considered helping defeat him to be a big enough deal to get someone brought back from the dead, and since that was a main character on Team Hero, I guess we're supposed to imagine that Zeus was in the right in their conflict. We also never saw just how sincere Hades actually was with Zelena -- yeah, the True Love Kiss worked, but then he also lied to her and used her, and when he met her was he looking for love or was he planning to do the same time travel spell she was? What did he really want? Why would ruling Storybrooke be better than ruling the Underworld? I feel like the flashback time spent reconciling Regina with everyone from her past could have been better used developing the main story of Hades. The only real reason the conflict against him was so balanced was that he was all over the map and just reacting to what the heroes did rather than having any obvious plan or goal, until suddenly at the end when he did have a plan and goal that he'd supposedly been working on all along, not that we could tell based on his previous actions.

With Hyde, I feel like we missed a huge chunk of his story about what he was doing in the Land of Untold Stories and why he even bothered to bring all those people over to Storybrooke when apparently all he really wanted was to get revenge on Jekyll and on Rumple.

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

We never learned what his conflict with Zeus was all about and how/why he got stuck in the Underworld. We just know that it was apparently bad enough that Zeus considered helping defeat him to be a big enough deal to get someone brought back from the dead, and since that was a main character on Team Hero, I guess we're supposed to imagine that Zeus was in the right in their conflict.

Actually, we do get that....if you freeze-frame the pages of Hades' story in 5x21.  Hades always had an inferiority complex as the youngest child of the Olympian King and wanted to be on top, so he stole the Olympian Crystal and murdered his father, then tried to kill Zeus.  Zeus was absolutely in the right in the conflict, as the pages described him as looking upon Hades with compassion and pleading with him to reconsider what he's doing, but Hades refused.  Stopping his heart was about not only restricting his power, but also dulling his vicious emotions and murder-lust, which we see come back into full force once his heart starts beating again.  But I do agree that all of this really should have been a flashback, not a freeze-frame bonus.

In fact, it would have worked so much better for 5x20's flashback than the stupid Emma's jacket origin story.  We could start it off seeing Hades is a more sympathetic light corresponding to Zelena giving him TLK and him seemingly helping the heroes, then just at the point of his present-day betrayal we could see him murder his father and attempt to kill his brother.  What's more, it would establish the Olympian Crystal an episode early, rather than having it be yet another McGuffin that only suddenly exists when it's needed and with no foreshadowing.  Such a missed opportunity! 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Mathius said:

Hades always had an inferiority complex as the youngest child of the Olympian King and wanted to be on top, so he stole the Olympian Crystal and murdered his father, then tried to kill Zeus.  Zeus was absolutely in the right in the conflict, as the pages described him as looking upon Hades with compassion and pleading with him to reconsider what he's doing, but Hades refused.  Stopping his heart was about not only restricting his power, but also dulling his vicious emotions and murder-lust, which we see come back into full force once his heart starts beating again.

Wow! That's a lot of really essential information to be squeezed into a freeze-frame Easter egg instead of being dramatized. Instead, we got the origin story of the jacket and a one-off episode about characters who had nothing to do with the arc.

[KingOfHearts]

Sounds suspiciously like the Jacob/MiB origin story...

[YaddaYadda]

16 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Sounds suspiciously like the Jacob/MiB origin story...

Of course it does. A&E don't have an original bone in their body.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't understand what the writers are trying to do with the Evil Queen. She's so far removed from her original form that it's hard to make the connection. She was the destroyer of worlds, slaughterer of villages, and usurping tyrant of the throne. Now that the "tame" side of her has been extracted, she's been unleashed. And what does she do? Screw with the Charmings' minds by exploiting their dumbness, go on spa dates with Zelena, and flirt with Rumple. It's obvious she has no grand evil scheme or raging bloodlust. Could A&E explain to me how she's supposedly worse now than she was before? She's immortal... and that's about it. 

Regina's so terrified of her. Maybe she should put on her big girl panties and take one for the team by reabsorbing her. That would be the heroic thing to do, after all. If she really did care about others, she wouldn't let a murderer on the loose just so she wouldn't have to deal with her inner demons. Just my two cents. In all honesty, I do prefer EQ over Regina. With a few adjustments, she could be a very entertaining replacement. (Like, stop her from killing random red shirts.)

Edited October 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The Writers can't strike a balance between using her as a megavillain and as comic relief.  So she vacillates between the two, making it impossible to take her or the season-long arc seriously.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The Writers can't strike a balance between using her as a megavillain and as comic relief.  So she vacillates between the two, making it impossible to take her or the season-long arc seriously.

Evil Queen? More like the Edgy Queen.

[Curio]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

In all honesty, I do prefer EQ over Regina. With a few adjustments, she could be a very entertaining replacement. 

 

I totally prefer EQ over Regina, too. Even though I'm not a huge fan of the camp, at least she's engaging and fun to watch on screen. Watching Regina now is like watching Eeyore in a pantsuit who can occasionally throw fireballs.

Dragging out this double Regina plot for most of the season was a mistake, in my opinion. First, it makes the Evil Queen part of Regina look incompetent because she can't kill any of the main characters, so she mostly just waltzes around town chewing the scenery and saying snarky things. It also makes Mayor Regina look like a terrible person for not doing anything about herself. Why is Regina not doing everything in her power to find herself and confront the Evil Queen? If the evil part of her personality is running free around town, why isn't Regina shown to be tracking her down every chance she can get? Regina seems so blasé about her other half that she'd rather just hang out with the Charmings instead of doing anything productive. Instead of using her time helping the gang find Aladdin, why isn't Regina trying to find her other half? Wouldn't it be simple to use a tracking spell on herself? She already knows the Evil Queen has been hanging out with her sister, why isn't she doing anything more to confront and mend her relationship with Zelena? They should be blaming the Oracle's death just as much on Regina as they do the Evil Queen, but that's not happening.

I think this double Regina plot would have worked much better if they treated it like Dark Hook where it only lasted for 2 or 3 episodes. With Dark Hook, we've never seen Hook as a Dark One before, so that plot actually warranted more episodes, but we've seen the Evil Queen time and time again.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Curio

[TheGreenKnight]

Although I do like TEQ, I wonder if it would've been more interesting if they made her more intimidating off the bat like they did Cora in season 2 where even Rumpel/Regina were terrified of Cora coming to Storybrooke (with nowhere near enough payoff, but you get what I mean). Maybe instead of Robin being killed by Hades, have him be killed by TEQ in the first or second episode of season 6 because she would hate that Regina could've ever loved him like she did Daniel--that she could've gotten over Daniel and gave up on revenging his death for that matter--and she would've saw killing Robin as the best way to put "herself" back on track to what she used to be when she wanted Snow dead. Plus, that would really build TEQ up as threatening in a similar vein to how the 1.02 ended with Regina killing her father, showing the damning lengths she was willing to go to get what she wanted.

Also have her long-term goal be to kill Emma (or use the shears on her), then re-enact the Curse to set things back to how they were in season 1 only with nothing that could interfere--no Emma to break the Curse, Henry would be a drone just like everyone else, Rumpel would have no power over her, etc. And I would like if getting revenge on Rumpel had been a main goal of hers since he deliberately planned for the Curse to be broken from the beginning (and his interference helped Snow White to find True Love and re-take the kingdom before the Curse). Possibly have TEQ eventually kill Belle at the midseason cliffhanger, instigating the full-on war between Rumpel and TEQ that I always wanted but we never got in the early seasons. Only Rumpel would want to kill Regina along with TEQ, with Zelena possibly ending up a victim of Rumpel's revenge? (I'm not sure who else he could hurt Regina with except Henry, and we know the writers would never kill Henry.) If 6 were intended to be the final season, they could go further and end with both Rumpel's and TEQ's deaths in the series finale, with perhaps Regina either having to die to save everyone from TEQ (her death being TEQ's death) or having TEQ kill Rumpel before she's re-absorbed by Regina and Regina resolves to accept being the DO and contain the Darkness as her final penance/redemption for her past.

Edited October 29, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Although I do like TEQ, I wonder if it would've been more interesting if they made her more intimidating off the bat like they did Cora in season 2 where even Rumpel/Regina were terrified of Cora coming to Storybrooke (with nowhere near enough payoff, but you get what I mean). Maybe instead of Robin being killed by Hades, have him be killed by TEQ in the first or second episode of season 6 because she would hate that Regina could've ever loved him like she did Daniel--that she could've gotten over Daniel and gave up on revenging his death for that matter--and she would've saw killing Robin as the best way to put "herself" back on track to what she used to be when she wanted Snow dead. Plus, that would really build TEQ up as threatening in a similar vein to how the 1.02 ended with Regina killing her father, showing the damning lengths she was willing to go to get what she wanted.

Also have her long-term goal be to kill Emma (or use the shears on her), then re-enact the Curse to set things back to how they were in season 1 only with nothing that could interfere--no Emma to break the Curse, Henry would be a drone just like everyone else, Rumpel would have no power over her, etc. And I would like if getting revenge on Rumpel had been a main goal of hers since he deliberately planned for the Curse to be broken from the beginning (and his interference helped Snow White to find True Love and re-take the kingdom before the Curse). Possibly have TEQ eventually kill Belle at the midseason cliffhanger, instigating the full-on war between Rumpel and TEQ that I always wanted but we never got in the early seasons. Only Rumpel would want to kill Regina along with TEQ, with Zelena possibly ending up a victim of Rumpel's revenge? (I'm not sure who else he could hurt Regina with except Henry, and we know the writers would never kill Henry.) If 6 were intended to be the final season, they could go further and end with both Rumpel's and TEQ's deaths in the series finale, with perhaps Regina either having to die to save everyone from TEQ (her death being TEQ's death) or having TEQ kill Rumpel before she's re-absorbed by Regina and Regina resolves to accept being the DO and contain the Darkness as her final penance/redemption for her past.

That would have been more exciting then we're getting. Not that I want Emma dead (never!) But I agree EQ should have been more scary and with goals she's going after. Targeting Emma who broke the Curse and Rumple who created it with the loophole would have made the most sense. Especially when you considered how close she came to in the pilot. Taking out those two would be the first thing Evil Queen would have done or tried to do. She might even leave Snow and Charming alone considering she took out their daughter or trying too. Maybe that could bring back the real Snow and Charming pissed at having her daughter now the target of EQ's wrath.  They could kill Belle midseason, or make it a cliffhanger, where they find her after she's been hit with fireball or something. Or use someone as misdirect, maybe Snow for example or Charming when she really after Emma instead. There's so many more exciting things they could do.

I loved Regina and Rumple's fear of Cora coming to Storybrooke. That really should have been the same with EQ loose in the town. There should be real fear and tension. The Heroes should be terrified even more then they were when Regina and EQ were the same and on the warpath. Zelena should be wondering if EQ is using her.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Also have her long-term goal be to kill Emma (or use the shears on her), then re-enact the Curse to set things back to how they were in season 1 only with nothing that could interfere--no Emma to break the Curse, Henry would be a drone just like everyone else, Rumpel would have no power over her, etc. 

Re-casting the curse makes total sense to me. If we hadn't gone through three (four if you count Pan's) already, that would be a heavy-weighted way to bookend the series. I don't see how playing mind games could be satisfying to her at all. That's never been her style. She has always been as subtle as a freight train. 

[Camera One]

15 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Also have her long-term goal be to kill Emma (or use the shears on her), then re-enact the Curse to set things back to how they were in season 1 only with nothing that could interfere--no Emma to break the Curse, Henry would be a drone just like everyone else, Rumpel would have no power over her, etc.

That's an excellent prediction.  If Season 7 is the final season, A&E will definitely want to make it similar to Season 1 just like with "Lost".  

So perhaps that's what this Evil Queen stuff is setting up.  She will die in the Season 6 finale (probably through reabsorption into Regina), but it will be too late to stop the Curse, so the last frame of this season will be the purple cloud covering everyone.  Before everyone is smothered, they will have a group hug and everyone will forgive one another for their secrets and lies.  Emma will tell Regina she has faith that as Curse Regina, her "good" side will win victorious and they will all get a happy ending because of her.  Then, Season 7 will be Cursed Storybrooke again, except with the twists you listed.  Flashbacks will be "If the Curse had Never Happened" and will show how everyone's lives would have been worse if Rumple and Regina were good.  Cinderella would never have escaped her stepmother, Archie and Gepetto would have died anyway, Red would have been attacked and killed, Graham would have been eaten by snakes, Leopold would have cheated on Eva with Cruella, etc.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

On 10/26/2016 at 11:51 AM, Mathius said:

Actually, we do get that....if you freeze-frame the pages of Hades' story in 5x21.  Hades always had an inferiority complex as the youngest child of the Olympian King and wanted to be on top, so he stole the Olympian Crystal and murdered his father, then tried to kill Zeus.  Zeus was absolutely in the right in the conflict, as the pages described him as looking upon Hades with compassion and pleading with him to reconsider what he's doing, but Hades refused.  Stopping his heart was about not only restricting his power, but also dulling his vicious emotions and murder-lust, which we see come back into full force once his heart starts beating again.  But I do agree that all of this really should have been a flashback, not a freeze-frame bonus.

In fact, it would have worked so much better for 5x20's flashback than the stupid Emma's jacket origin story.  We could start it off seeing Hades is a more sympathetic light corresponding to Zelena giving him TLK and him seemingly helping the heroes, then just at the point of his present-day betrayal we could see him murder his father and attempt to kill his brother.  What's more, it would establish the Olympian Crystal an episode early, rather than having it be yet another McGuffin that only suddenly exists when it's needed and with no foreshadowing.  Such a missed opportunity! 

It would have completely rewritten Greek mythology, though, by reversing the actual story.

Hades was actually the oldest of the six children Cronus and Rhea; Zeus was the youngest.  Cronus, spooked by a prophecy that one of his children would eventually overthrow him (as he had overthrown his own father, Uranus), tried to defeat the prophecy by swallowing each of his children as soon as they were born.  Zeus was the lone exception; his mother Rhea and his grandmother Gaea had had enough of Cronus' infanticide and protected Zeus by having Rhea hide him away in a cave prepared by Gaea and tricking Cronus into swallowing a stone that Rhea had dressed up to look like Zeus.

When Zeus came of age, Gaea prepared a special herb to give to Cronus which acted as a violent emetic, causing him to vomit up his other five children (Hades, Hestia, Poseidon, Demeter, and Hera) and even the stone he had swallowed.  Cronus' children, with Zeus leading the way, overthrew and defeated Cronus.  As the three brothers (Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus) met to divide up the spoils of that war, Zeus, as the leader of the successful rebellion against Cronus, had first choice, and he chose Olympus and the heavens as his reward; Poseidon chose the seas, oceans, and waterways; and Hades chose the Underworld as his kingdom.  So contrary to the story in 5x21, it was Zeus who destroyed Cronus, not Hades, and Hades himself chose the Underworld.  He may have ultimately grown bored with the Underworld and decided to go after Zeus and Olympus, but it's NOT why he was in the Underworld to start with.

Edited October 30, 2016 by legaleagle53

[KingOfHearts]

Apparently Hyde had a ton of power in LoUS. He struck fear into people and ran everything to his liking. It's disappointing we never got to see how he came into that position. He was a pretty scary guy, but he wasn't exactly Hades. I don't understand how an entire realm was under submission.  

[Camera One]

It also doesn't even fit with his backstory.  How could he consolidate power when half the time, he would turn into Jekyll with no warning?  

[Rumsy4]

Plus, why would Jekyll be moronic  enough to inject the serum into himself once Hyde got to the LoUS, and automatically transformed back to Jekyll? Maybe he stared a career as a petty thief/serial killer, and started using Hyde as an alibi regularly. lol

I too think they should have explained how the LoUS really works, and how Hyde ended up as the Warden.

[KingOfHearts]

I would have liked to see Hyde get fleshed out more and possibly become a regular. His character had a lot of wasted potential. He could have been used for more than exposition and scenery chewing. Having him around longer would have given us some clarity on how the splitting works in the long term. I'm still bitter about his flashbacks being so shallow and paint-by-numbers. The twist that Jekyll was dark didn't actually change anything. It just revealed that a split person has the same potential for light and darkness, but we already learned that in 4B with Emma's fetus lobotomy.

If the writers saw Hyde as a three-dimensional person and not just a random villain du jour, there could have been many possibilities open. (Like Hyde Queen!) They got his appearance and feel down. They just needed to give him character depth.

Edited November 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I completely agree Hyde was a huge missed opportunity. I was hoping that Hyde was going to stay around and be an eventual new LI for Regina/EQ. Have EQ flirt with Hyde and team-up to do villain shenanigans. Something like Golden Queen right now, except less icky. After Regina and EQ get reabsorbed, and Hyde gets "redeemed", they could start working towards a genuine connection. Oh well...

I suppose this means Regina will not be getting a LI ever. I think that is an interesting choice. She did cast the Dark Curse to get her Happy Ending, so maybe this is karma balancing the scales. Maybe they'll imply a new LI towards the end of the series. I vote for Dragon Queen (not that it will happen...). 

ETA: I really feel that the writers shortened Hyde's role in S6 based on the poor reception for the S5 finale. But they decided to keep the extended EQ/Regina split plot, which was also widely panned...

Edited November 23, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I agree that Hyde should have shed a lot more light on the whole split/personality thing.  Overall, the character didn't really leave any impression on me, and I'm not sure if there was much more of the Jekyll and Hyde story they could mine.  I don't miss him at all, though he should certainly have been better used.

[TheGreenKnight]

I honestly don't blame the writers (for once) for how Hyde was basically written out as fast as possible (or even how much the Aladdin characters have been wasted by being ham-fisted in there). I blame that particular failure on executive meddling. I was really hoping the character would be Regina's new love interest, possibly by first having a romantic affair with TEQ and then Regina having the same feelings once she'd re-absorbed TEQ. ((spoiler for future episodes)

Spoiler

Which I think would've happened if executives didn't decide to bring Robin back to appease OQ outrage

.) If nothing else, he was a strong enough character to hold his own as the main bad for a full half-arc or at least act as the B Side to TEQ instead of Zelena. The actor was fantastic and easily the best male eye-candy this show's had since Merlin.

[KingOfHearts]

It appears that Golden Queen's purpose was to make the audience feel uncomfortable about the Evil Queen. (Make her unsettling, disturbing, whatever synonym you prefer.) But, we should have been icked by her evil deeds, not her choice in a man. We should have seen her going around twisting the necks of those who looked at her the wrong way, or planning a grand scheme that would hurt a lot of people, or maybe even mention to Emma how fun it was to have Graham as a sex toy. If the writers didn't want her to be full-on evil and just a misunderstood version of Regina, then they wouldn't have do things like that. But if she's supposed to be an intimidating antagonist like she was in S1, then they've really failed.

She's too edgy to be seen as redeemable but too capable of love to be a proper representative of inner darkness.

Edited December 2, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Had one of those 3AM thoughts while lying in bed awake.

It actually makes sense that Pan's lover was the Black Fairy and fits into the show's continuity. Why? Tinkerbell. She was also exiled from the fairies for doing taboo things. He either felt sympathy or an attraction for her. It was my headcanon that she did appeal to him and that's why he kept her close. So, in other words - Pan has always had a thing for fairy girls.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Yeah, they never explained why exactly she had Pan's trust, this actually does kind of explain it - blind perverted attraction.

It's also a nice reversal of the fairy tale where Tink was obsessively in love with an unresponsive Pan.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina and Zelena are both murdering rapists, yet I feel sorry for one and have no sympathy for the other. Maybe it's because one is capable of remorse and the other just wants praise? It's funny how it can take so little to change how you view a character.

[Mathius]

Maybe it's because Zelena is a rapist and a murderer, but she did NOT murder her rape victim.

And yet Regina, who DID and never fessed up about it, is now holding a petty grudge against Zelena because she blames her for Robin's death.