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Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

ulkis

By ulkis
in General Hospital

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Darklazr

Darklazr

2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

It's not just about death. It's about giving relationships closure and time. Jason never died. But Robin moved past him because they had a clear end to the relationship and separation. That's all it takes. Writers just have to make a choice and stop teasing a pairing so X can move on to something else.

Robin moved past Jason because the actress was leaving the show, right?  Didn't SBu ask for another round of JnR when KMc returned to the show in 2005 and the actress was not interested in Robin being in the midst of JaSam 1.0?  I thought Patrick was brought on specifically so that KMc would have a new love interest?

I believe Elizabeth and Lucky were done permanently when he found out that Jake was Jason's son and the two should have moved on.  However, there was backstage agenda's with wanting Sam back with Jason, so that meant another round of LnL2.  Lucky would have probably remained with Siobhan, if not for the show wanting to get rid of BH and JJ leaving after being on the show for two years.

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dubbel zout
dubbel zout

This triangle needs to be dead and buried in salted earth. It goes nowhere and is it really worth riling up the fan bases for a few months at a time? Give Liz a happy relationship with someone else.

Oracle42
Oracle42

There's nothing "cute" about it and it's not special spite reserved for Liz. it's the exact same attitude expressed towards the Todd/Amnesiac!Marty grossness and that repulsive shit with Johnny/Conn

Cobalt Stargazer
Cobalt Stargazer

Oracle42 has already said it, but it bears repeating, because it's not a "cute" argument. I mean, if you can find someone who would say that it would be acceptable if Liz was the one this was happenin

Darklazr

Darklazr

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Lucky and Elizabeth had a really good conversation about this very thing under Guza, but it's been ignored since. Ugh.

JY was using tongue and apparently didn't discuss it with BH first.

I enjoyed original LnL2, but the show should have allowed Elizabeth and Lucky to move on, just like we saw with Robin after Stone died.

Darklazr

Darklazr

22 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

Well, on this specifically? We differ because I don't think a character who is suffering from emotional problems and most likely should seek help for what he's feeling should be accused of abandonment. It's not like he's having a good time elsewhere.

Lucky was in Ireland staring at rocks and then RC moved him to Africa to help poor orphans.  So, Lucky can help African children but can't bring his ass home, get a job and take care of Cam, Jake and Aiden?!

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HeatLifer

HeatLifer

4 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Robin moved past Jason because the actress was leaving the show, right?  Didn't SBu ask for another round of JnR when KMc returned to the show in 2005 and the actress was not interested in Robin being in the midst of JaSam 1.0?  I thought Patrick was brought on specifically so that KMc would have a new love interest?

I mean, I don't want to get into backstage stuff because who really knows fact from fiction with regards to certain things and that just leads to speculation. Like, who knows what would have happened if KMc never left in 1999? I'd probably be posting about why Robin and Jason are still on/off again after 20 years and she needs a new relationship, lol. I'm happy I'm not doing that!

The point is when a relationship is written to be DONE and the writers stop going back and forth, it's easier for the audience to move on and start wanting different things for characters.

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Darklazr

Darklazr

2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

What I mean by stuck is Lucky has not been able to have a relationship that has had 0 to do with Liz. She's always involved in his relationships. On top of that, he is forever obligated to three kids, two of which are not his and he never should have taken that responsibility.

This!  This is why there should have never been another round of LnL2 when Elizabeth returned to town with Cam.  I still don't know why Guza allowed Cam to live when he had multiple chances to kill off, especially during Lucky's drug storyline.

2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

I mean, I don't want to get into backstage stuff because who really knows fact from fiction with regards to certain things and that just leads to speculation. Like, who knows what would have happened if KMc never left in 1999? I'd probably be posting about why Robin and Jason are still on/off again after 20 years and she needs a new relationship, lol. I'm happy I'm not doing that!

The point is when a relationship is written to be DONE and the writers stop going back and forth, it's easier for the audience to move on and start wanting different things for characters.

I would have loved a permanent end to LnL2!.... and that should have been written in 2007 after Lucky found out that Jake was Jason's son.   Lucky should have walked away and not looked back.

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HeatLifer

HeatLifer

15 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

I would have loved a permanent end to LnL2!.... and that should have been written in 2007 after Lucky found out that Jake was Jason's son.   Lucky should have walked away and not looked back.

Yep. I never understood why Jason/Jake wasn't the last straw. Liz was always written to sorta be a prisoner with Lucky, like she couldn't leave him and vice versa. Guza crapped on them badly.

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HeatLifer

HeatLifer

6 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I wonder if Guza and Steve would have had some epic showdown eventually. Speaking of what might-have-beens!

Probs. Hell, maybe they did. Remember, it was Steve's wife who asked what Kim was up to in '05. And then Steve/Mo talked to her. I doubt it was to ask her back for Robin and her future love-interest-to-be. Something clearly changed a JnR revisit. But that gets into spec territory, lol.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

3 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

Probs. Hell, maybe they did. Remember, it was Steve's wife who asked what Kim was up to in '05. And then Steve/Mo talked to her. I doubt it was to ask her back for Robin and her future love-interest-to-be. Something clearly changed a JnR revisit. But that gets into spec territory, lol.

Wasn't the rumor that KMc basically said she didn't want a JnR retread? (and at the time, JaSam was still young and popular, so if she did, I could see no one in charge fighting her on that!).

Melgaypet

Melgaypet

I admit, I'm glad they never went for JnR 3.0 (4.0? I lost track), after Jason became Sonny's enforcer. I wouldn't buy Robin with a hitman. It was hard enough to stomach Liz constantly ignoring that fact. I know I'm screaming into the wind here, considering what show we're talking about, but: KILLING PEOPLE FOR MONEY IS A DEALBREAKER, LADIES.

(Addendum to Elizabeth: Ditto killing for art and funsies.)

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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

(edited)
1 hour ago, Melgaypet said:

KILLING PEOPLE FOR MONEY IS A DEALBREAKER, LADIES.

(Addendum to Elizabeth: Ditto killing for art and funsies.)

What's the alternative in Port Charles? There are only two totally free guys in Port Charles, and one of them is a priest. A somewhat fallen priest, but a priest nonetheless. So that leaves Curtis, who's delightful, but he's hanging around Jason these days. Something bad is going to happen to Curtis because of that.

I like the idea of Griffin and Elizabeth, but it doesn't look as if they will happen, teasing promos notwithstanding.

Edited by dubbel zout
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Melgaypet

Melgaypet

(edited)

At this point, I'll happily take boring over skin-crawlingly repulsive. (In my more self-centered moments, I wonder if Franco/Liz is my punishment for hating Jason/Liz and Ric/Liz so much. IT CAN ALWAYS GET WORSE - General Hospital)

ETA: Oy, brain fart. I hated Nik/Liz, not Ric/Liz. (Truth be told I wasn't crazy about their relationship either, especially after Panic Room. But it was nasty-ass Niz I loathed.)

Edited by Melgaypet
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Oracle42

Oracle42

(edited)

At this point, I just want her to have an excuse to kill him. Honestly, I'd much rather see a story where Liz and Sam bond over covering up Franco's murder than whatever the "writers" have had them doing. 

I liked the détente they'd reached pre-Jake Doe and most of their interactions since then haven't made any sense. 

Franco needs to go and I'd really like Liz to have the opportunity to save herself. 

Edited by Oracle42
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KerleyQ

KerleyQ

1 minute ago, Oracle42 said:

At this point, I just want her to have an excuse to kill him. Honestly, I'd much rather see a story where Liz and Sam bond over covering up Franco's murder than whatever the "writers" have had them doing. 

 I say let Jake kill him (maybe whatever programming Helena did to him finally kicks in), and when Jason (who has learned not a single lesson from what happened to Michael) wants to cover it up, Sam and Liz bond over insisting that Jake gets help instead of hiding what's happened.  I feel like that would take care of so many issues - the abandonment of the "what did Helena do with Jake on the island" story line, Franco's continued existence, finally put an end to the Liz/Sam wars, and it pulls JaSam out of that obnoxious, perfect "no, YOU'RE a schmoopy!" conflict-free bubble and gives them some natural, believable internal conflict. And, it would be a natural fit to give Laura and Kevin some air time. 

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Darklazr

Darklazr

4 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

 I say let Jake kill him (maybe whatever programming Helena did to him finally kicks in), and when Jason (who has learned not a single lesson from what happened to Michael) wants to cover it up, Sam and Liz bond over insisting that Jake gets help instead of hiding what's happened.  I feel like that would take care of so many issues - the abandonment of the "what did Helena do with Jake on the island" story line, Franco's continued existence, finally put an end to the Liz/Sam wars, and it pulls JaSam out of that obnoxious, perfect "no, YOU'RE a schmoopy!" conflict-free bubble and gives them some natural, believable internal conflict. And, it would be a natural fit to give Laura and Kevin some air time. 

I would rather see Franco piss off Heather and she stabs his ass in the head.  Heather later admits that Franco was NOT hers and Scotty's kid and slithers back into Ferncliff.

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peachmangosteen

peachmangosteen

(edited)
15 hours ago, Darklazr said:

I would rather see Franco piss off Heather and she stabs his ass in the head.  Heather later admits that Franco was NOT hers and Scotty's kid and slithers back into Ferncliff.

Maybe Heather could find out that Franco isn't really her's and then she can be like well might as well kill the asshole then. That would be hilarious.

I was thinking about the Griffin/Liz thing that is supposedly coming and like seriously why is there no movement there? It was in a promo like a month ago for fuck's sake! They had them talk like once in the past couple months with nothing since. The pacing on this show is atrocious.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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LeftPhalange

LeftPhalange

(edited)
10 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I was thinking about the Griffin/Liz thing that is supposedly coming and like seriously why is there no movement there? It was in a promo like a month ago for fuck's sake! They had them talk like once in the past couple months with nothing since. The pacing on this show is atrocious.

A Liez/Griffin/Freako triangle is going to be so awful 1) Freako is involved so it's going to be shit automatically; 2) Griffin is boring and underdeveloped; 3) Liez is a disaster and if any of the idiots in charge knew what they wee doing they would be trying to rehab her instead of giving her another man. The last thing she needs is to be involved in another fucking triangle. Actually, this is the second to last thing she needs. The last thing she needs is getting knocked up again.

Edited by LeftPhalange
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Melgaypet

Melgaypet

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Imagine if they do a Liz pregnancy during this triangle and we get a WTD? story with Franco and Griffin. Shudder! And since it's Liz there's probably a decent chance they'll go there.

Shhhhh! You know they've got interns lurking here!

If this happens, peach, I'm coming for you and everyone you love.

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

8 hours ago, Darklazr said:

I don't see any more babies in Elizabeth's future until the show goes off the air and she finally has her daughter named Emily-Rose Morgan!  

I don't see it being Morgan as I doubt GH will break up Jason/Sam for the end. And if Sam's spawn is female, I could see them using Emily. What's Griffin's last name? Maybe it would be Audrey ___________. (I can't see Franco spawning, ever.)

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ulkis

ulkis

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1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

I don't see it being Morgan as I doubt GH will break up Jason/Sam for the end. And if Sam's spawn is female, I could see them using Emily. What's Griffin's last name? Maybe it would be Audrey ___________. (I can't see Franco spawning, ever.)

aaaaand you jinxed it. Thanks, Wendy! :p

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Badsamaritan

Badsamaritan

On 1/8/2017 at 8:16 PM, WendyCR72 said:

I don't see it being Morgan as I doubt GH will break up Jason/Sam for the end. And if Sam's spawn is female, I could see them using Emily. What's Griffin's last name? Maybe it would be Audrey ___________. (I can't see Franco spawning, ever.)

Right. Liez will not be having any other children with the last name Morgan. I think I read even Becky said no to more kids for Liez. Hell, she's got 3 that haven't even hit puberty yet!

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peachmangosteen

peachmangosteen

23 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Yeah, but it shouldn't be through her kids. They had Laura cheerlead the relationship, and I don't think there's anyone else who could get through to Liz. Maybe Robin, but she's not around long enough to talk to people outside her family who aren't named Sonny.

What I think should happen is for Liz's kids themselves to be the ones to take her to task for her relationship with Franco. Ideally imo Cam would be aged up to at least 13 and he should maybe even try to get legally emancipated because Liz's taste in men is a disaster and he's tired of the danger him and his siblings have put up with because of it. Maybe then she could look at her past relationships and realize her pattern of falling for pieces of shit and she'd seek therapy.

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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

I like the idea of Elizabeth's kids (i.e., Cam) doing this, but they'll never SORAS any of them, it seems. Elizabeth will be 75 and still have preteens. I don't get the reluctance to aging the boys; it's not as if it automatically means they have to be on contract. If they're school-aged, that's more reason not to see them. They're in class, soccer practice, at friends, etc. It's better than eternally being upstairs.

And it's inexplicable to me why Elizabeth hasn't had a decent romance since Matt. I don't count AJ because that was over before it started. Griffin is right there, and MC and BH have good chem. But no, she gets stuck with having to redeem a SERIAL KILLER. I actually think BH and Soap Legend Roger Howarth have decent chemistry, but Franco is so repellent—the writing and the acting—that doesn't mitigate it at all.

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Darklazr

Darklazr

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

What I think should happen is for Liz's kids themselves to be the ones to take her to task for her relationship with Franco. Ideally imo Cam would be aged up to at least 13 and he should maybe even try to get legally emancipated because Liz's taste in men is a disaster and he's tired of the danger him and his siblings have put up with because of it. Maybe then she could look at her past relationships and realize her pattern of falling for pieces of shit and she'd seek therapy.

Hell no.  Elizabeth IS the only constant parent in Cam, Jake and Aiden's lives and she should not be further tarnished on this show.  I hated Guza writing that nasty Niz crap and saw no reason for my girl to be stuck with an old sleazy serial killing rapist.  LiRic was over back in 2004, but RC trashed a promising Quiz and then stuck Elizabeth with another old fart, Ric.  I don't understand why this popular character is constantly trashed for IIC hardon for certain pets/gets.  There should have been no bad guys written when Jake Doe was unmasked as Jason Morgan and it made no sense not to pair Elizabeth with Griffin from the jump.  I don't ever want to see another round of LnL2, so a single Griffin should have been Elizabeth's current love interest.  Sam can have this version of Jason Morgan!

Oracle42

Oracle42

(edited)

I think AJ/Liz had promise. There was more than enough chemistry there and good soapy history. And I'd much rather see her throwing this attitude at Jason in defense of NotaSerialKiller!AJ. Especially since poor black sheep AJ wouldn't have ignored the non-Jake children just to get to Jason.

I think that in the long-term Carly would have been a spoiler but there's good soap there too

Edited by Oracle42
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HeatLifer

HeatLifer

13 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

I think AJ/Liz had promise. There was more than enough chemistry there and good soapy history. And I'd much rather see her throwing this attitude at Jason in defense of NotaSerialKiller!AJ. Especially since poor black sheep AJ wouldn't have ignored the non-Jake children just to get to Jason. I think long-term Carly would have been a spoiler but there's good soap there too

I don't disagree, I thought AJ/Liz could have been good, but I will never give up on wanting someone for Liz who has absolutely nothing to do with Jason.

And speaking of, I don't even recognize Jason or Liz when they're in scenes together anymore. Talk about completely gutting a longtime relationship. Thanks, Frank.

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Oracle42

Oracle42

(edited)

I will say this for SBu, he always acknowledged Jason's previous relationships in scenes.

9 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

I will never give up on wanting someone for Liz who has absolutely nothing to do with Jason.

I mean, long-term I would have wanted AJ/Carly because I think, in the long-term, that's the more compelling story/chemistry. 

I liked the idea of Matt/Liz before he was sent to prison but I think there's actually better story for them now. He'd be dangerous/damaged enough to appeal to Liz without being a SERIAL KILLER or a career criminal.  

Edited by Oracle42
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Asp Burger

Asp Burger

You know, though...so often on this show, and other soaps too, couples look promising until they are couples. I'm right there with a lot of you in thinking, yes, the Liz and Griffin scenes we have had have been good. So what happens if/when the show pursues that? I guarantee you, six months down the road -- "Liz and Griffin are so boring.  Yes, they both have pretty hair, but I need more than that. They're bland together. They both need someone with more edge. They just keep having the same conversations over and over. In that one little scene with Curtis when she changed his bandage, Becky had more chemistry than I've ever seen with Griffin (and Curtis had more than I've ever seen with Jordan/Valerie/Hayden). I also think a Griffin/Nurse Amy romance would be really offbeat and cute. Matt was so obviously trying not to crack up today when Amy said 'We're slammed, and this little girl hasn't had her morning doughnut!' I think Matt and the Nurse Amy actress really work well together."  

Okay, I ran long there with the hypothetical, but you get the picture. Something seems good until we get it, and then they screw it up and seem to be dangling some other thing. "Seen couples are sweet, but unseen couples are sweeter," or something.  

About Liz: I have liked her since she first appeared, which was around the time I started watching. I don't approve of all of her actions and stories over 20 years, but Becky always gives everything 100% and plays it to the best of her ability, and I really don't think the character is all that horrible, cumulatively, by Port Charles standards.

One thing I appreciate is that she does something worthwhile, and they do a pretty good job of showing her as a working mother. The only real shortcut they gave her was the usual soap fast-forwarding of meeting the requirements to do the job. She decided she wanted to be a nurse and then she was not only a nurse but the best nurse around, but that's the kind of soap handwave I can go along with (they were doing virtually the same thing at the same time with Emily, as a doctor). At least she isn't another woman on this show who (1) just screwed her way into a job for which she wasn't remotely qualified, like the head of her own company, or (2) has some silly job we're actually supposed to take seriously even though it only gets brought up once in a blue moon, and onscreen depiction of actual work being done in it is even rarer.  

peachmangosteen

peachmangosteen

58 minutes ago, Asp Burger said:

I really don't think the character is all that horrible, cumulatively, by Port Charles standards.

This is so true. And for me the reason why I can't stand Liz while I can marginally stand some other horrible characters is because I just hate BH's acting style and her voice. She is just so whiny and the character of Liz already comes off whiny and smug enough as it is without BH adding to it with her constant bitch face and baby voice.

10 hours ago, Darklazr said:

I don't understand why this popular character is constantly trashed for IIC hardon for certain pets/gets.

I understand it. The writer's know they can use and destroy Liz because she does have a sizable, vocal fanbase who will keep watching and continue championing her no matter what. So it's perfect for them, they can use her to prop up other people they want fans to like while destroying her and they know they're still gonna get a bunch of Liz fans tweeting out #Friz and watching every day she's on. It's not right, but it makes complete sense to me, especially coming from the recent showrunners/writers they've had.

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