S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[Constantinople]

Tywin absolutely has Pycelle's number, as you can see from this deleted scene from Season 3:

Tywin is so much more interesting than Orson.

First you torment the beetle. Then you smash it.

[Haiti D]

Oops. I knew he was dead, I was thinking Blackfish was announced dead. Thanks for clarifying everyone.

[TexasChic]

I finally figured out why Sansa was dressed that way at the end. They are leaving the Vale where they will be dealing with various people, so she has to disguise herself since she is wanted by the Lannisters. The best way to do that is to keep up the story of being Littlefinger's niece. And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the mockingbird Littlefinger's sigil? I think she is dressing herself as she thinks a niece of LF would look.

 

In the scene where she told LF she knows what he wants –– giving him a long look without clarifying any further, I felt like she was admitting she knew he wanted her. Then there at the end she's being just the tiniest bit flirty as well. I think she is finally becoming an active player in the game. Her continuing evolution should be cool, but scary to watch. How far will she go? And how much does she really know about what all he's done?

 

As for the creepiness factor, I DO feel it. He was obsessed with her mother and seems to be transferring that to her now, which is twisted and icky. But I also sense some chemistry between them. As someone else said, that part of the story line both attracts and repels me, which is pretty fascinating.

 

As for the way LF talks, sometimes it seems over the top (like he should be twirling his mustache), but mostly I love it! It's just so deliciously swarmy! He's kind of mesmerizing when he speaks.

[Lady S.]

And even if he may claim or strongly imply he's helping her because he loved her mother or that he "loves" her because she remind s him so much of her "mother" that his real underlying emotion is to further punish and destroy the legacy and future of the woman he caused him so much grief by spurning him.

 

I have no doubt at the very least Littlefingers is constantly computing in his head how valuable Sansa may be as a wife and how valuable Sansa may be as something to be sold to Cersei.  And he probably is even keeping of tab of how mother money Sansa would make if he put her in a brothel and auctioned off her virginity.

 

I am sure he also keeps in mind what makes him happy and gives himself pleasure which prevents the latter from happening.  But to say he is not to be trusted is an understatement.  Hopefully she got that message after he pushed her aunt (and his own wife) out the window.

Wow, someone thinks less of Littlefinger than I do. I think his feelings for Cat/Sansa are genuine but twisted, because he's a twisted man. He's gone to a lot of trouble to get Sansa under his wing, I don't see him selling his second chance at love back to Cersei, putting her in a brothel, or throwing her out the moon door anytime soon. Ros and Lysa held no real romantic interest for him, and were therefore totally disposable once they became liabilities. With Sansa, he wants more, and that should keep her relatively safe for the time being.

 

Sorry, yes, the late Lord Hoster Tully fathered Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure. The Blackfish was his argumentative younger brother, whose real name is Ser Brynden Tully. I don't recall his given name being used on the show, but the HBO viewers' guide has it in the Tully family tree. (Would anyone be interested in a character guide for this side of the Wall, incorporating such HBO-info?)

[CletusMusashi]

I sense absolutely no chemistry. Littlefinger's obsesion with Cat was well shown. But his OCD compulsion to gravitate toward whatever the nearest facsimile is does nothing for me. I mean, sure, he obviously does want to screw Sansa, but so did a big mob of rioters in King's Landing, and I wasn't expected to actually care about whether or not she could be happy with one of them. And this has absolutely nothing to do with my hating Littlefinger. I hated Joffrey far more, and am hard-pressed to think of a way in which Littlefinger could be worse for her than Joffrey... yet I will not deny that Joffrey and Sansa had obvious chemistry. Because that chemistry was conveyed by an actual thing called acting, instead of by at least one of them explaining their feelings every single episode.

ETA: Yes, such a guide sounds like it would be useful.

Edited June 6, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Lady S.]

K, I'm geeky enough to throw one together, unless someone else wants dibs.

[Drogo]

 

But to say he is not to be trusted is an understatement.  Hopefully she got that message after he pushed her aunt (and his own wife) out the window.

 

Personally, I doubt Sansa sees it as "her aunt and his wife" going out the moon door, so much as "the insane woman who was seconds from killing her."

 

If I were Sansa, this would only reinforce my faith in Littlefinger and his protection of my best interests. 

 

Side note (yes, I am prepared to have zero friends afterwards):  Tywin looks sexy as F in that deleted fishing scene. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Drogo

[Isazouzi]

Side note (yes, I am prepared to have zero friends afterwards):  Tywin looks sexy as F in that deleted fishing scene. 

 

Tywin is IMO a very good-looking man. His charisma is phenomenal. I honestly don't care that he's a baddie (I didn't care even before my recent decision to stop caring). I don't want him to die because the actor and the character are amazingly great. Or if he has to (which is probable), I don't want him to be savagely massacred, à la poor poor Oberyn. It should be something dignified. There, I've said it.

 

Cersei, on the other hand, can suffer as much as Theon.

 

Damn, seems I'm caring again.

[Constantinople]

I don't see why Jaime was so out of sorts at the end of the episode because of how the fight turned out.  If anything, Jaime should be happy that his brother has been sentenced to death.

 

There's a certain safety in death, wouldn't you say?

[NoWillToResist]

 

He declined a royal pardon for her--I can't believe she didn't get that.

 

I don't know that you can turn down a royal pardon since it's only given if you've done what was required, no? So the fact that the pardon exists shows that Jorah did betray her. Yes, it was in the past, but in her mind, it doesn't matter.

 

I do wonder if it would have made any difference had Jorah come clean ages ago. The fact that he never told her means he's been lying to her the entire time they've known each other.  Sure, he's been loyal and given her great advice but he's hidden a pretty big betrayal from her...I can see how she fears trusting him.

[ihartcoffee]

I don't see why Jaime was so out of sorts at the end of the episode because of how the fight turned out.  If anything, Jaime should be happy that his brother has been sentenced to death.

 

There's a certain safety in death, wouldn't you say?

Sure but Jaime is pretty much the only family member who cares for tyrion. He does not relish the idea of seeing him publicly executed. I've always liked the relationship between them.

[Lady S.]

S1 Jaime did advocate a good clean death, perhaps he's gained a greater appreciation for the possibilities of life after being denied a clean death by Locke.

I'm working on a completely comprehensive character chart now, someone stop me if this effort is premature.

[Hecate7]

 

Are bastards allowed to earn last names? If so, I have a very hard time believing that Ned would not have given Jon his name. Even if Cat was against it, I feel like he would have made it happen.

 

Any father of a bastard may decide at any time to legitimize said bastard. Roose Bolton just made Ramsey "earn" it because he's kind of a creep. As for Ned, there was never any reason that we know of, other than Cat being against it, for him not giving Jon his name. And as we learned season one, Cat herself even offered to let Ned make Jon Snow a Stark, if Jon Snow survived a fever she believed she caused by praying for him to die. People can legitimize their own bastards.

Roose was probably always going to legitimize Ramsey eventually, because he will need an heir and Ramsey is all he's got.

 

The King can also legitimize someone else's bastards. Ned would have had no trouble getting Robert to make Jon Snow a Stark.

 

Someone asked if all bastards are named Snow. All illegitimate children of Northern noblemen are named Snow.  Common bastards have no last names at all, but noble bastards are named based on the region they come from. The surnames are:

 

    Flowers: The Reach

    Hill: The Westerlands

    Pyke: Iron Islands

    Rivers: The Riverlands

    Sand: Dorne

    Snow: The North

    Stone: The Vale of Arryn

    Storm: The Stormlands

    Waters: The Crownlands

 

Using these surnames is only permitted if the father has admitted the bastard is his, and implies a certain amount of protection from that lord's House even though bastards such as Gendry Waters, Jon Snow, and Ramsey Bolton could never inherit.

[SoWindsor]

I finally figured out why Sansa was dressed that way at the end. They are leaving the Vale where they will be dealing with various people, so she has to disguise herself since she is wanted by the Lannisters. The best way to do that is to keep up the story of being Littlefinger's niece. And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the mockingbird Littlefinger's sigil? I think she is dressing herself as she thinks a niece of LF would look.

Makes total sense! Yes, thank you.

Did you notice Robin didn't seem sad at all over his mother's death. Kind of surprising.

[Jean]

Oberyn took a page out of the dumb villain's handbook where they prioritize talking over fighting. But the fight was the highlight for me.

It's great how something as simple as Arya's laugh says so much about her character. Loved it.

This might be the first episode I didn't hate Sansa and that's because she was acting very un-Sansa like. Hope this version sticks around. Just tweaking her character turned the whole Littlefinger-Sansa dynamic around. It's doesn't come off as creepy anymore. I still don't dig it but I'm intrigued where this is going.

I also can't tell anymore if he's really an unrepentant diabolical chess master or just a pathetic lovelorn fool turned fatal attraction. I want him to get his comeuppance but I don't want his ending to be reduced to his downfall being due to his love/obsession for Cat or Sansa.

Presumably she raided Lysa's closet.  

I thought she was sewing the dress when Littlefinger went to go ask her why she helped him no?

Edited June 7, 2014 by Jean

[BradandJanet]

 

Did you notice Robin didn't seem sad at all over his mother's death. Kind of surprising.

 

Robin doesn't come across as especially bright/normal, and he's obsessed with the moon door. Is anyone at the Vale watching out for him now? I wonder if Baelish's marriage to Lysa gives him any authority over young Rob. 

[CletusMusashi]

I think most of the knights and guards would rather take orders from somebody like Finger, who knows how to do little things like "remember their pay day," than from a crazy child who, without adult supervision, would probably order them dropped out the moon door every time they were caught chewing gum. So if all the adults are following the other adult, Robin has no choice in the matter. Similar to the Joffrey/Tywin dynamic.

[The Kings Foot]

Is this correct? Isn't he about the same age as Lysa? I thought he was a year or so younger than Catelyn. So imagine if Cat had Sansa when she was about 20, then Littlefinger is ~20 years older than Sansa, hardly "3 times", more like twice her age. I don't see anything creepy about a man of ~38 being with a woman of 17 -- not in this world.

 

 

 

Sansa is supposed to be 14-15.

 

She was 14 when she married Tyrion last season. They had a whole conversation about it.

[CletusMusashi]

The age thing would be a lot easier to keep straight if Sansa weren't seven feet tall. I think her real father was Hodor.

[Colored Francie]

 

 

TooMuchCoffee:

Of course we were to see Oberyn's death as the result of pride, arrogance, whatever... I'm saying that the show, this season, in the limited number of minutes we've seen Oberyn act and react and the anecdotes of his skill as a warrior did not give me sufficient insight or evidence to be convinced that he would have made that fatal error. It felt out of character. I'm not a book reader; perhaps there is more hubris on the printed page but I really don't care what the books do..  I expected him to lose to the stronger Mountain, not defeat himself.

Because of crazy work deadlines, I haven’t been able to watch the episode until tonight. But I’d already been spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a loose-lipped book reader praising Pedro Pascal on Twitter for his performance even though she knew the “outcome [sadface]”. I guessed that meant death. How is it possible that I can KNOW something is coming, but still be gutted by it?! But what a fucking death. I was shaking for about 20 minutes after it was over. It’s not just that he died. But the way. The SAT word “ignominious” that I’ve never had a use for otherwise comes to mind. Not just that The Mountain bested him, with Tyrion’s fate in the balance, but that as that pain exploded for Oberyn, he also had to listen to the taunts of the Mountain confessing the awful things he did indeed do to Elia.

 

Also, Oberyn’s emotion absolutely doomed him, but I didn’t see them being pride or arrogance. I saw it more as anger. The 20+ years wait for justice, the adrenaline of the moment...this is the same man who named his 5th daughter Elia, but would say her name and get sad and then get angry. Who couldn’t hear the Rains of Castamere without picking a fight. Fucking hothead.

 

Meanwhile, on the other side of the episode....

Shouldn’t Sansa and The Hound have been a bit concerned about revealing their identities to folks in the Vale? They both have prices on their heads...why would they assume those rewards wouldn’t be of interest to folks? Even in the little mini-trial I thought Baelish referred to the fact that the Lannisters have friends even in the Vale.

 

Grey Worm and Missandei’s scenes were incredibly compelling to me. I like the characters well enough, but tonight they hit me really hard. There’s something so tragic and poignant about their clear longing for each other.

 

 

Wish she had more scenes with Pedro, showing Oberyn and Elleria just talking and enjoying each other's company.  Their bond clearly was more than just sex. - MrsRafaelBarba

Even if they were having sex, how about a scene with ONLY the two of them?! No sex workers, no Lannisters, no contortionists. Although she did a great job with what she had, I felt it was a waste of Indira Varma.

 

All my thoughts and dreams and desires about Pedro Pascal have already been said.

 

 

Tywin is so smart, WHY can he not see how valuable Tyrion can be? How can he actually believe Tyrion is responsible for the death of Lady Lannister (whatever her first name was)? He's smarter than that. I guess even a smart person can be ruled by their emotions. -CeeBeeGee

See Martell, Oberyn aka Red Viper of Dorne. But this Tywin deal is the other head-scratcher for me. I guess in this instance he thinks he’s putting “family first” through Tommen and not the wisest of his offspring (it was very cool to see him kind of defend Tyrion in that deleted scene with Pycelle). I do think that there’s a certain sense of Tywin giving up on Tyrion, though, especially after Tyrion’s decision to ask for the trial-by-combat. Like, OK, you’re going to be a hothead and do this and spite this deal I made with Jaime - you get what you deserve.

 

Fuck. I'm still reeling.

[Meredith Quill]

 How is it possible that I can KNOW something is coming, but still be gutted by it?!

 

This is what it feels like to be a book reader. (Myself included).

[dr pepper]

Likewise :(

[jezebelly]

I prefer this ending to the trial by combat: http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/see-a-video-that-fixes-game-of-thrones-fight-mountain-oberyn.html

[KurlyGrl]

 

Did you notice Robin didn't seem sad at all over his mother's death. Kind of surprising.

 

 

Well, that's because he's not hungry yet. LOL!!

[tricksterson]

 

and Brienne

True but it's keep in mind that she may still have a couple of inches left to grow.

[CletusMusashi]

This guy is one of the better Youtubers to watch for stuff about the historical weapons accuracy.

Lately he's been letting his (metaphorical) hair down a bit and giving his opinions on works of fiction.

[millennium]

I'm really late to the party.   I saw this episode for the first time tonight and the instant Oberyn started showboating, I knew he would die.   Another show might have let him off with a close call, but we all know how this one rolls.

 

Oberyn would have done well to heed the advice of Tuco in The Good, The Bad and the Ugly:

 

Edited November 1, 2015 by millennium

[Holmbo]

Always nice to get new input. Did you recently start watching or did you just have season 4 and 5 to catch up to.

[millennium]

Always nice to get new input. Did you recently start watching or did you just have season 4 and 5 to catch up to.

 

Season 4 and Season 5 catch-up.   I don't have HBO and It took me this long to start getting the DVD's from Netflix because I misplaced a Netflix DVD in June 2014 and didn't find it until just a few weeks ago.  In the meantime, I religiously stayed away from all Game of Thrones forums and tried to avoid spoilers in the media.   I entered Season 4 insulated from spoilers, but Season 5's conclusion was crazy-spoiled by the press -- which was a great disservice to many people who can't afford to subscribe to HBO and have to wait to see it on DVD.

 

Unfortunately just tonight I accidentally clicked on the book talk thread for "Mountain and the Viper."   The screen opened on the second or third post and just like that I was spoiled re: Tyrion's imminent fate and maybe Jaime's too, unless the show veers from the books.

 

The show is becoming more difficult to watch.   It's hard to sit through episode after episode and see bad people win ALL the time.   It's too much like real life.

Edited November 1, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

I just wanted to add, I don't get the sympathy for Theon Greyjoy.

 

He was a complete asshole at Winterfell, IMHO.  He betrayed all the people who befriended him simply to elevate his position and he killed and burned two kids to cover his ass.

 

Ramsay Snow is exactly what he deserves.

[Skooma]

On 6/3/2014 at 6:05 PM, dizzyd said:

I don't think that beetle story was fore-shadowing of any kind and I think we're giving the writers more credit than deserved to think it was anything significant.  It was just a waste of time, ...

I may be the last person on earth to start watching this show and I'm now through this episode and read all 8 pages here and never saw what I saw in the Beetle Story so have to add that here for the hell of it nearly a decade late.  Not spoiled as to what comes next here and never read the book(s).

To me this story was the heart of soul of this episode.  Not about the gods of the land -- Lannisters don't seem interested in any of them so that wouldn't resonate -- but about the mortals in general and the nobility in particular. 

It seemed that Tyrion was trying to open the eyes of his brother to the fact that the nobility -- and particularly their house -- are the true half-wits.  They crunch, stomp, whack and squish "beetles" (people without any power) every which way simply because "they can" like the half-wit cousin could.

Like hello Jaime, try thinking outside the (family) box and see this for what it is.  There is no honor in loyalty to a family like this.  You are free to choose yourself.  Then Tyrion opens his hand to show him a beetle he lets live and scurry off free.

Tyrion is doing everything possible to now reduce the macro view parable to the micro concrete as in basically saying guess who is the next beetle our family is going to squish?  Oh, that would be me.  But you have a choice in the matter as to whether you want to be part of the squishers or the freers of beetles.  Hint, hint.

Don't know if Jaime caught on or not or if he did if he would act upon this teaching moment -- this isn't the speculation thread anyway -- but to me that was what Tyrion was doing with this story.