Mad Men - General Discussion

[qtpye]

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

What happened, iirc, is that Joan quit SC and then came home to find out Greg hadn't gotten the residency he wanted. He told Joan she had to go back to work, but Joan couldn't go back to SC because she'd been replaced. So then she had to work at a department store (where she ran into Pete, who kept her secret--and she seemed to remember he did that). That was humiliating. So when she was called back into the office in Shut the Door, she was able to come back under much better terms--and yes, I think by then she was more able to embrace the fact that she was working and happy about that.

I remember having convos about that during the show, about how it was obviously a choice to have her not only never move, but not even change the decor, which was very clearly 1950s. Especially since she wound up having plenty of money, which she spent more on jewelry and clothing than her apartment. It seemed like it was definitely meant to suggest something about Joan's psychology. I think some tried to pass it off as just the show not wanting to spend the money, but that's silly--they changed sets for plenty of other reasons. This was a choice. 

I tended to think it was something connected to her feeling like that was her own space and not feeling confident enough on the personal front to commit to a place that said she was a single mom forever. Like part of her was still waiting for the dream marriage--but also I think she maybe had real affection for the place. She starts out living there with a roommate, then on her own, then her husband moves in, she has a baby, her mom moves in, the husband leaves and she starts her business right out of that living room with her son watching TV there. A lot has changed in the place without repainting those salmon walls that she maybe likes. She must see lots of possibilities there in the familiar or something!

There is a whole Reddit on Joan's apartment😄

Other characters moved in and out of several spaces, so it did not have anything to do with the show's budget.  She was filthy rich by the end of the show and Joan was and always been very image consciousness. Her Don Knotts type boyfriend even mentioned that Joan does not live in the greatest area.

Someone mentioned that even though Joan was richer, Peggy was continuously upgrading her living situation while Joan did not even change her paint colors. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by qtpye

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, qtpye said:

There is a whole Reddit on Joan's apartment😄

Other characters moved in and out of several spaces, so it did not have anything to do with the show's budget.  She was filthy rich by the end of the show and Joan was and always been very image consciousness. Her Don Knotts type boyfriend even mentioned that Joan does not live in the greatest area.

Someone mentioned that even though Joan was richer, Peggy was continuously upgrading her living situation while Joan did not even change her paint colors. 

Exactly! (I should have known there would be a Reddit!) It's obviously a pretty big choice. Like some people said well, Joan doesn't care about her home, but first--of course she would care about her home somewhat. She cared about it enough to decorate it originally in salmon and turquoise! Plus, she cares enough about it to keep it clean while Peggy tosses stuff all over the place so it's silly to think that this is something Peggy cares about more than Joan. Peggy who let her boyfriend decide where they should move and then not only lived with rats but became a landlord doing major renovations!

[qtpye]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Exactly! (I should have known there would be a Reddit!) It's obviously a pretty big choice. Like some people said well, Joan doesn't care about her home, but first--of course she would care about her home somewhat. She cared about it enough to decorate it originally in salmon and turquoise! Plus, she cares enough about it to keep it clean while Peggy tosses stuff all over the place so it's silly to think that this is something Peggy cares about more than Joan. Peggy who let her boyfriend decide where they should move and then not only lived with rats but became a landlord doing major renovations!

Particularly when you think about how EVERYTHING in this show is meticulously planned. Tom and Lorenzo (fashion bloggers) did amazing posts about the fashion and how it reflected the characters' inner work workings called Mad Style. Nothing is random.

In the future I hope Joan moves or buys her apartment and the one next door, to demolish the wall and get a more spacious area.

[SunnyBeBe]

Ref. the oddity of Betty. Second watch was not kind to Betty. She had a very cruel streak. Her immaturity and selfishness caused a lot of pain to her children. I’m not sure how I ignored that originally.  Having a sane husband, like Henry barely helped her. And, while Don was a horror, I think she was too.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

What happened, iirc, is that Joan quit SC and then came home to find out Greg hadn't gotten the residency he wanted. He told Joan she had to go back to work, but Joan couldn't go back to SC because she'd been replaced. So then she had to work at a department store (where she ran into Pete, who kept her secret--and she seemed to remember he did that). That was humiliating. So when she was called back into the office in Shut the Door, she was able to come back under much better terms--and yes, I think by then she was more able to embrace the fact that she was working and happy about that.

 

As much as I loved the surprise of watching Joan saunter into the office and start barking orders at the men, I wish we could have gotten a scene where Joan was approached to join the new company.   Did Pete say anything to Roger about Joan being available or did Roger think if this on his own?  Joan is loyal to Pete from that point forward even if he was always a shit.  

[Ohiopirate02]

23 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. the oddity of Betty. Second watch was not kind to Betty. She had a very cruel streak. Her immaturity and selfishness caused a lot of pain to her children. I’m not sure how I ignored that originally.  Having a sane husband, like Henry barely helped her. And, while Don was a horror, I think she was too.

Betty is still one of my favorite characters even though she was a shitty mom.  My rewatching had me feeling more for Betty and her kids.  I saw Don's gaslighting and abusive behavior.   Don left the house for work and Betty had no idea when he would be home-- would he make it home before the kids went to bed? Or would he get the last train tonight? Would he call to say he was stuck in the city? Or would he just pass out at his mistress's place?  And that's not even taking into consideration his 3 day business trips that ended up lasting two weeks.  And if Betty ever brought up a valid issue with Don, he would lie and turn it around on her.  

Yes, Betty never should have taken out her frustrations on her kids, and she failed her kids in many ways.  To me the tragedy of Betty is what person would she have been if she married anyone else?  

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

As much as I loved the surprise of watching Joan saunter into the office and start barking orders at the men, I wish we could have gotten a scene where Joan was approached to join the new company.   Did Pete say anything to Roger about Joan being available or did Roger think if this on his own?  Joan is loyal to Pete from that point forward even if he was always a shit.  

Iirc, they're sitting around realizing that they don't know where to get the things they need and I think Roger says he knows who to call, and reassures them it's someone who's discreet. So they just trust him. I think Don's gives a sort of "Of course, should have known!" look when she comes in. Pete could be a shit in general, but Joan seemed to be one of the few people who had some genuinely positive interactions with him. I always thought they had some surprising things in common. Like, despite seeming like such opposites, they both had a certain understanding in their attitudes about things at work etc.

[SunnyBeBe]

To me she was very disturbed and it wasn’t caused by Don, though, he was a horrible husband. She gave him plenty of chances.   I saw her behavior with Glen as weird. 

[Umbelina]

For me, the question of Joan's apartment came down to taxes.  Even Peggy was told to BUY for tax reasons, and after they sold, Joan was a millionaire.  If Peggy and all the "guys" in the office were talking about buying for tax reasons, why wouldn't Joan, who probably knew more about taxes than any of them?

I don't think she owned it, certainly not in the beginning.  Maybe by the end, but the show never mentioned it.

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Iirc, they're sitting around realizing that they don't know where to get the things they need and I think Roger says he knows who to call, and reassures them it's someone who's discreet. So they just trust him. I think Don's gives a sort of "Of course, should have known!" look when she comes in.

That was such a great moment, and honestly, it's really just competency porn.  If you need to steal files, supplies and quickly move your office over the weekend, you call Joan.  Even at the end when Don tells Joan he'll need to rent a furnished apartment, you half expect Joan to simply say "Done," and pull a set of keys out of her purse, because she is just that good. 

 

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

My rewatching had me feeling more for Betty and her kids.  I saw Don's gaslighting and abusive behavior.   Don left the house for work and Betty had no idea when he would be home-- would he make it home before the kids went to bed? Or would he get the last train tonight? Would he call to say he was stuck in the city? Or would he just pass out at his mistress's place?  And that's not even taking into consideration his 3 day business trips that ended up lasting two weeks.  And if Betty ever brought up a valid issue with Don, he would lie and turn it around on her.  

Don is a terrible husband, but Betty's problems go beyond anything Don was doing.  I mean, her behavior with Glen was so grossly inappropriate, and I truly believe she really had no idea what she did wrong.  That's not Don, that's all Betty.  

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Don is a terrible husband, but Betty's problems go beyond anything Don was doing.  I mean, her behavior with Glen was so grossly inappropriate, and I truly believe she really had no idea what she did wrong.  That's not Don, that's all Betty.  

Oh, yeah. Megan was a genuinely healthier person (while still having issues and complications that led her to Don!) who became more bitter thanks to disappointment (from Don and elsewhere), but Betty obviously had a ton of stuff already. Remember that first season is less about her dealing with Don's infidelity, which she doesn't know about consciously until the end, and more about her mother having recently died and that bringing up a whole host of stuff about how she was raised to the point where her hands are going numb. 

I just realized, in fact, that she and Don really have some things in common in the way they were emotionally stunted. They're both sort of kids in grown-up bodies hurting people. But Betty's relationship with Glen that season is the most blatant thing of it. I really love the scene where she talks to him in the parking lot and is actually able to seem like a real little girl without it seeming fake. It's just who Betty is.

[sistermagpie]

I thought of something this morning that seemed interesting. I think because I was remembering the conversation about Joan's apartment. I remembered how Don and Megan had that elaborate cutting edge 60s apartment that was later completely empty. It was empty because Megan came to take what she wanted to keep and her mother decided to take everything for her, so there's that funny moment where Don comes home to nothing and is living in an empty apartment for a while. 

Maybe because I live in NYC, but that always seemed the opposite of what I wanted--I don't have space to be grabbing up an entire big apartment full of furniture just because I can. And that made me remember how when Don left the house in Ossining he had those boxes in the garage for a long time that Henry wanted him to take, and finally he just took them and tossed them away. 

And I thought it was almost symbolic of how after his marriage to Megan Don will probably just move on without much baggage--he gets rid of even more in California, obviously. While Megan, even if it's partially her mother's fault, is the one who's going to carry forward all the stuff from this marriage. And it's true when you look at them. Megan's been really changed through and during her marriage to Don (not that it's all Don's fault) while for Don it seems like much more of a blip on his radar. 

 

[Ohiopirate02]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought of something this morning that seemed interesting. I think because I was remembering the conversation about Joan's apartment. I remembered how Don and Megan had that elaborate cutting edge 60s apartment that was later completely empty. It was empty because Megan came to take what she wanted to keep and her mother decided to take everything for her, so there's that funny moment where Don comes home to nothing and is living in an empty apartment for a while. 

Maybe because I live in NYC, but that always seemed the opposite of what I wanted--I don't have space to be grabbing up an entire big apartment full of furniture just because I can. And that made me remember how when Don left the house in Ossining he had those boxes in the garage for a long time that Henry wanted him to take, and finally he just took them and tossed them away. 

And I thought it was almost symbolic of how after his marriage to Megan Don will probably just move on without much baggage--he gets rid of even more in California, obviously. While Megan, even if it's partially her mother's fault, is the one who's going to carry forward all the stuff from this marriage. And it's true when you look at them. Megan's been really changed through and during her marriage to Don (not that it's all Don's fault) while for Don it seems like much more of a blip on his radar. 

 

Possessions mean nothing to Don.  Those boxes left in the garage weren't things that held any value to Don, those were left by him as a FU to Betty and Henry.  Betty and Henry were still living in the house that Betty was supposed to sell per their divorce.  Henry called Don's bluff on this one.  He knew those boxes were full of junk Don purposefully left there, that's why he left them on the curb for Don to pick up.  

Don because of his upbringing only needs a wad of cash, his cigarettes and a lighter.  With those he can always buy new clothes, a new car, furniture, etc.  Too much stuff would weigh him down and make his next flight harder.  The only objects Don actually keeps are dog tags and jewelry, stuff he can easily take with him.  Even then, Anna's ring is something he wants to give away to a worthy woman.  

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Possessions mean nothing to Don.  Those boxes left in the garage weren't things that held any value to Don, those were left by him as a FU to Betty and Henry.  Betty and Henry were still living in the house that Betty was supposed to sell per their divorce.  Henry called Don's bluff on this one.  He knew those boxes were full of junk Don purposefully left there, that's why he left them on the curb for Don to pick up.  

Don because of his upbringing only needs a wad of cash, his cigarettes and a lighter.  With those he can always buy new clothes, a new car, furniture, etc.  Too much stuff would weigh him down and make his next flight harder.  The only objects Don actually keeps are dog tags and jewelry, stuff he can easily take with him.  Even then, Anna's ring is something he wants to give away to a worthy woman.  

Yup, exactly. And even remember that cigarette lighter he accidentally takes from the soldier that it seems he can't get rid of!

He didn't care about losing all the stuff in the apartment. It really just made everything easier for him because he didn't have to deal with it. Marie carting it all away was funny, but she was mistaken to think that would be doing anything to Don. It just seemed symbolic since I think Don would cast off his time with Megan emotionally in ways Megan wouldn't cast off her time with him as easily too. I think for Don once he threw money at her to make her go away he could leave the shameful moment behind him and move forward into whatever.

[txhorns79]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, yeah. Megan was a genuinely healthier person (while still having issues and complications that led her to Don!) who became more bitter thanks to disappointment (from Don and elsewhere), but Betty obviously had a ton of stuff already. Remember that first season is less about her dealing with Don's infidelity, which she doesn't know about consciously until the end, and more about her mother having recently died and that bringing up a whole host of stuff about how she was raised to the point where her hands are going numb. 

One minor moment of continuity I really liked was how we would see the portrait of Betty's mother pop up every now and then.  When it was she and Henry in the Draper house, you see it behind Betty in Don's old office.  Then in the new house, you get to see it for a moment hanging in a room while Betty is on the phone.  It's nothing much, but just a small detail that showed someone was paying attention.  

 

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It just seemed symbolic since I think Don would cast off his time with Megan emotionally in ways Megan wouldn't cast off her time with him as easily too.

Definitely.  By the end, you could tell Megan clearly felt something for Don, or at least felt enough to hate him.  Don seemed sad, but mostly he was already on to his next relationship, and once Megan left, you knew he would likely never see her again (or at least not purposefully seek her out).     

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought of something this morning that seemed interesting. I think because I was remembering the conversation about Joan's apartment. I remembered how Don and Megan had that elaborate cutting edge 60s apartment that was later completely empty. It was empty because Megan came to take what she wanted to keep and her mother decided to take everything for her, so there's that funny moment where Don comes home to nothing and is living in an empty apartment for a while. 

Maybe because I live in NYC, but that always seemed the opposite of what I wanted--I don't have space to be grabbing up an entire big apartment full of furniture just because I can. And that made me remember how when Don left the house in Ossining he had those boxes in the garage for a long time that Henry wanted him to take, and finally he just took them and tossed them away. 

And I thought it was almost symbolic of how after his marriage to Megan Don will probably just move on without much baggage--he gets rid of even more in California, obviously. While Megan, even if it's partially her mother's fault, is the one who's going to carry forward all the stuff from this marriage. And it's true when you look at them. Megan's been really changed through and during her marriage to Don (not that it's all Don's fault) while for Don it seems like much more of a blip on his radar. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Possessions mean nothing to Don.  Those boxes left in the garage weren't things that held any value to Don, those were left by him as a FU to Betty and Henry.  Betty and Henry were still living in the house that Betty was supposed to sell per their divorce.  Henry called Don's bluff on this one.  He knew those boxes were full of junk Don purposefully left there, that's why he left them on the curb for Don to pick up.  

Don because of his upbringing only needs a wad of cash, his cigarettes and a lighter.  With those he can always buy new clothes, a new car, furniture, etc.  Too much stuff would weigh him down and make his next flight harder.  The only objects Don actually keeps are dog tags and jewelry, stuff he can easily take with him.  Even then, Anna's ring is something he wants to give away to a worthy woman.  

 

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

One minor moment of continuity I really liked was how we would see the portrait of Betty's mother pop up every now and then.  When it was she and Henry in the Draper house, you see it behind Betty in Don's old office.  Then in the new house, you get to see it for a moment hanging in a room while Betty is on the phone.  It's nothing much, but just a small detail that showed someone was paying attention.  

 

Definitely.  By the end, you could tell Megan clearly felt something for Don, or at least felt enough to hate him.  Don seemed sad, but mostly he was already on to his next relationship, and once Megan left, you knew he would likely never see her again (or at least not purposefully seek her out).     

These are such great points. After Megan left advertising and begged him to be in the commercial, he seemed totally done with her like she was one of his one night stands. I believed he still loved Betty to some degree, even without the children linking them forever.

It is also interesting how Megan redid herself after she married Don and no I do not think she purposefully mislead him. I noticed that Don's money allowed her to be kind of a queen bee in her social circle, which was probably mostly made up of penniless artists, actors, and creative intellectuals.

I think Megan's true goal was the be the "cool girl" (not in the Gone Girl kind of way) of her crowd and this was the persona she wanted to project.

There were two problems with this:

• Don did not marry her to be the "cool girl". He married her to be the ultimate combination of Peggy's talent, Betty's beauty, and the mother figure he never had in his life.
• Coolness is not something you can obtain...you either have it or you don't.

Megan is a beautiful woman with natural likable personality that is a somewhat of a people pleaser. She is also a bit of a dork. I think many of her so called friends were probably slightly using her because they knew that she could pick up the tab and pay for many of the cocktails, coffees, and drinks they could not afford. This does not mean they did not like her but again it was Don's money that gave her real status in that crowd beyond her beauty and her acting ability.

I imagine Megan, now a newly minted millionaire, will probably continue hosting "artistic parties" and help sponsor struggling artists. I just hope she manages her money wisely and does not get hustled out of her fortune.

I also imagine that she gifted all her chic furniture to her mother.  She now has the money and would want a fresh start with no reminders of her past.

 

[MCMLXXVII]

There’s a new MM podcast out by Roberta Lipp of the Basket of Kisses fan page called “They Coined It”. They discuss one episode a week and are up to 2:2.

[caitmcg]

AMC, like so many other cable outlets, decided to create its own subscription streaming service, which is why Mad Men departed Netflix. Currently, Amazon is selling the digital version for $4.99 per season, or you can watch free on Amazon Prime with ads. I just bought S1–5, even though I own the DVDs, just so I’ll have the option to watch them anywhere. (I already own S6–7 on Amazon because I had ditched cable beford they originally aired, so had to buy in order to watch.)

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Finally, I broke down after years of pressure form my sister to watch the series.  She was right.  It's the best of its type in the history of TV.

For me, the silliest hot take I've seen/heard (not in PT) is that Peggy is actually responsible for the Hilltop ad.  The staging of the final scene with Don into the actual commercial makes it entirely clear to me that the concept was his.  Also, the chance that M-E would roll the dice as they did with an "arty" ad to roll out a "REAL thing" campaign that someone other than Don created is just about zero.  Having said this, I could totally see that Peggy came up with the seminal campaign slogan (It's the real thing).  She was proven to be excellent at taking Don's concepts and putting a pithy phrase to them.  So, insum, the ad simply had to be Don's, but the campaign slogan (smartly incorporated into the ad), could have been Peggy's.

My favorite character was Roger.  The ultimate happy ending for Don would never have been possible if he had not forcefully defended him after the Hershey debacle.  Sure, there was significant self-interest involved.  I also believe, however, that his better nature kicked in as his best friend was in real trouble and being attacked by the jackals in the room.

Finally, I am grateful that I did not have to endure the fits and starts and uncertainties there would even be, new seasons.   

 

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Finally, I broke down after years of pressure form my sister to watch the series.  She was right.  It's the best of its type in the history of TV.

For me, the silliest hot take I've seen/heard (not in PT) is that Peggy is actually responsible for the Hilltop ad.  The staging of the final scene with Don into the actual commercial makes it entirely clear to me that the concept was his.  Also, the chance that M-E would roll the dice as they did with an "arty" ad to roll out a "REAL thing" campaign that someone other than Don created is just about zero.  Having said this, I could totally see that Peggy came up with the seminal campaign slogan (It's the real thing).  She was proven to be excellent at taking Don's concepts and putting a pithy phrase to them.  So, insum, the ad simply had to be Don's, but the campaign slogan (smartly incorporated into the ad), could have been Peggy's.

 

 

Wow, I've never even heard the suggestion that it could be Peggy's ad. Seems like somebody obviously starting from the fact that they wanted the ad to be Peggy's and working backwards to explain away the explicit story that makes it Don's ad! Peggy doesn't even have any experience with the kind of thing the ad's about.

53 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

My favorite character was Roger.  The ultimate happy ending for Don would never have been possible if he had not forcefully defended him after the Hershey debacle.  Sure, there was significant self-interest involved.  I also believe, however, that his better nature kicked in as his best friend was in real trouble and being attacked by the jackals in the room.

 

That makes me think of Roger complaining to Don, when they're fighting, that Don doesn't value relationships. But Roger actually does, even if he can be selfish and thoughtless. 

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow, I've never even heard the suggestion that it could be Peggy's ad. Seems like somebody obviously starting from the fact that they wanted the ad to be Peggy's and working backwards to explain away the explicit story that makes it Don's ad! Peggy doesn't even have any experience with the kind of thing the ad's about.

That makes me think of Roger complaining to Don, when they're fighting, that Don doesn't value relationships. But Roger actually does, even if he can be selfish and thoughtless. 

I think Roger is one of those people who are amazingly charismatic and charming. However, a lot of superficially engaging people do not actually form deep bonds with many. It is like they are hiding behind a wall of charm. Think of an amazing salesman who is actually in reality very lonely.

I would imagine that Roger includes Don as one of his few "true friends" that actually get him. For a wealthy man like Roger who can have almost anything he wants...true friendship is very important and very rare.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think Roger is one of those people who are amazingly charismatic and charming. However, a lot of superficially engaging people do not actually form deep bonds with many. It is like they are hiding behind a wall of charm. Think of an amazing salesman who is actually in reality very lonely.

I would imagine that Roger includes Don as one of his few "true friends" that actually get him. For a wealthy man like Roger who can have almost anything he wants...true friendship is very important and very rare.

Oh, I 100% agree. That's exactly how I see Roger. He has the super power of making other people like him--like Mona says at the wedding, that everybody in the room is worried about what Roger thinks of them. But he doesn't form deep bonds with many people at all. He does value relationships, but that doesn't mean that all his relationships have value--this is a guy who wakes up in a room full of people he just had sex with etc. Who had trouble mourning the mother who adored him until he could weep over the guy who shined his shoes and left him his stuff.

One quote about Roger that always stuck with me, actually, is from the notes he's taking for his book. He talks about his mother wanting him to have vanilla ice cream even though Roger preferred chocolate because the stains were easier to get out. I always thought that was Roger, going through life more the type of stain a little soda water will take out.

[txhorns79]

On 1/9/2021 at 5:07 PM, sistermagpie said:

Wow, I've never even heard the suggestion that it could be Peggy's ad. Seems like somebody obviously starting from the fact that they wanted the ad to be Peggy's and working backwards to explain away the explicit story that makes it Don's ad! Peggy doesn't even have any experience with the kind of thing the ad's about.

Yeah, I could imagine Peggy assisted Don, but there was too much stuff in the ad that only Don saw at the retreat for it to ever be someone else's idea or ad.

[Athena]

The Roger discussion reminds me of the first episode of Mad Men that I ever watched: S01xE07 "Red in the Face". I stumbled onto the show through that episode. I did not know anything about the characters but sensed the rivalry and "frenemy" quality between Roger and Don culminating in the challenge and power play Don sets up for Roger at the end. The look on Roger's face after it was all done told me a lot about their relationship. In S1, Roger did have a sense of mentoring Don. Over the years, he definitely considered Don a true a friend as anyone in his life. Roger took Don under his wing and nurtured Don. In that particular episode, Roger felt he was getting older and made the move on Betty to try to assert some dominance. Don gave as good as he could in that challenge too. He was a real asshole to Betty about it though.

The whole episode is about male emasculation and power plays because it also involved Pete, the chip and dip,  buying the rifle and telling Peggy that hunting fantasy (consistent with his "I'm the King" image).

[SunnyBeBe]

I recently saw Jon Hamm in  a movie named Margarie Prime.  What a strange film....I’m still digesting it.  It was classic Don Drapper imo.   

[qtpye]

https://medium.com/illumination/why-is-the-show-mad-men-so-captivating-9748f687fd07

Why Is The Show Mad Men So Captivating?

This article has some interesting points.

Edited January 27, 2021 by qtpye

[Umbelina]

20 hours ago, qtpye said:

https://medium.com/illumination/why-is-the-show-mad-men-so-captivating-9748f687fd07

Why Is The Show Mad Men So Captivating?

This article has some interesting points.

Yes, it's good!

An Amazing Cast Of Characters

The supporting characters of Mad Men are all a wonderfully complex flawed group of characters that are all on their own fascinating journeys. I will actually be doing a blog on Betty, Joan, Pete, Roger, Megan, Stan, Lane and some others because each person deserves their own deep dive introspections.

The whole show is like a candy box of amazing character analysis and writing. These characters become dear to us and much more than cliche portrayals on a TV show. Even though Mad Men has been off the air for many years at this point, I still wonder about these characters and what happened in their lives. The excellent writing of the series made these people real flesh and blood people that you grew to care about.

I still wonder about them as well, and while I'm not usually a fan wanker?  I disliked the ending so much I have rewritten that in my mind as well.  I get that Betty died, and though sad, it fit.  I think she smoked more than anyone on screen.  I pretty much loved the way the show ended for everyone except Don.  (I still don't buy that he would just hand over his kids to either his detested brother in law OR to Henry.)  So I envision a spin off with Don, who always has loved his kids, trying to make it work, failing a lot, but filled with Mad Men-esque humor and pathos.  

For me?  My favorite "got me hook line and sinker" parts of this show were the small but oh so important things that made it "real" especially to anyone who actually lived through those times.  

1. Betty and her friend smoking and drinking through their pregnancies.
2. Betty's only concern when Sally walked in covered in a dry cleaning plastic bag being whether or not the clothes were on the floor.
3. The Draper family picnic, throwing all the trash around before getting back in the caddy.
4. The shock of finding out Don was married in the first episode ending.
5. Pretty much the entire episode of "shut the door have a seat."
6. All of Pete (and later Pete and Trudy) after the assassinations.
7. Don's secrets uncovered by Betty while his current mistress waits in the car.
8. Peggy and Joan finally being "real" together after Don and Meghan's engagement announcement.
9. Peggy climbing the ladder every step of the way into that male world, up to, and including, that final strut with the Octopus painting.

AND, of course, this article has even more great things.  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/best-mad-men-scenes-115335291310.html

Edited January 28, 2021 by Umbelina

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, it's good!

An Amazing Cast Of Characters

The supporting characters of Mad Men are all a wonderfully complex flawed group of characters that are all on their own fascinating journeys. I will actually be doing a blog on Betty, Joan, Pete, Roger, Megan, Stan, Lane and some others because each person deserves their own deep dive introspections.

The whole show is like a candy box of amazing character analysis and writing. These characters become dear to us and much more than cliche portrayals on a TV show. Even though Mad Men has been off the air for many years at this point, I still wonder about these characters and what happened in their lives. The excellent writing of the series made these people real flesh and blood people that you grew to care about.

I still wonder about them as well, and while I'm not usually a fan wanker?  I disliked the ending so much I have rewritten that in my mind as well.  I get that Betty died, and though sad, it fit.  I think she smoked more than anyone on screen.  I pretty much loved the way the show ended for everyone except Don.  (I still don't buy that he would just hand over his kids to either his detested brother in law OR to Henry.)  So I envision a spin off with Don, who always has loved his kids, trying to make it work, failing a lot, but filled with Mad Men-esque humor and pathos.  

For me?  My favorite "got me hook line and sinker" parts of this show were the small but oh so important things that made it "real" especially to anyone who actually lived through those times.  

1. Betty and her friend smoking and drinking through their pregnancies.
2. Betty's only concern when Sally walked in covered in a dry cleaning plastic bag being whether or not the clothes were on the floor.
3. The Draper family picnic, throwing all the trash around before getting back in the caddy.
4. The shock of finding out Don was married in the first episode ending.
5. Pretty much the entire episode of "shut the door have a seat."
6. All of Pete (and later Pete and Trudy) after the assassination's.
7. Don's secrets uncovered by Betty while his current mistress waits in the car.
8. Peggy and Joan finally being "real" together after Don and Meghan's engagement announcement.
9. Peggy climbing the ladder every step of the way into that male world, up to, and including, that final strut with the Octopus painting.

AND, of course, this article has even more great things.  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/best-mad-men-scenes-115335291310.html

Great read @Umbelina. The yahoo article brought back some nice memories of truly fantastic television.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I get that Betty died, and though sad, it fit.  I think she smoked more than anyone on screen.  I pretty much loved the way the show ended for everyone except Don.  (I still don't buy that he would just hand over his kids to either his detested brother in law OR to Henry.)  So I envision a spin off with Don, who always has loved his kids, trying to make it work, failing a lot, but filled with Mad Men-esque humor and pathos.  

I think that's a fanwank Matt Weiner himself would say was absolutely possible. I remember him saying something like it in the commentary of the last ep. It was where Roger says something about putting Kevin in his will. I can't remember the comment, but it's something about how ultimately he's his son and even if Joan said she didn't want him to be supporting Kevin earlier, as his father he can still decide to leave him money. (Of course in that scene Joan seems fine with it and Roger is being sensitive to the possible problems with Greg--it's a very different situation.)

Anyway, when Roger said the line MW said something, I can't remember what, but it seemed to be pretty explicitly him reminding us that just because Betty and Sally had ideas about Don not raising the kids didn't mean that Don might not simply decide that was best and do it. 

Loved all those moments you listed. The show really must have captured the right feeling. It always amazes me how while I love the early seasons so much, the later seasons have something special to me because even though I'm not old enough to have memories of those years, some of them do take place after I was born and they start to feel eerily familiar because of it. The details just seem to run so deep--it's like the Lord of the Rings movies that way!

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The  Medium article grossly overstates the economic growth of the 60s.  There was most certainly a vitality and the Boomers were an emerging and massive target for marketers, but that all didn't really pay off until Nixon, of all people, relaxed certain financial regulations in the early 70s - several years after Hilltop.  Consumerism was on the rise, but not matured.

As much as I love and appreciate the show and most of the cast, I would not want to have been friends with any of the major characters.  As the articles illustrate, they were driven to be a success in an inherently evil industry.  Draper was a phenomenal talent, but OMG, what a twisted man he was for almost the entirety of the series.  

A favorite scene for me not mentioned in the Yahoo article was when Birdie was sitting miserably in the kitchen, knowing death was near, resolutely smoking a cigarette, the weapon of her death.  As my mother was declining, the thing she missed most was smoking.  She did it as long as she physically could.  Remarkably, her demise was not due to her incessant smoking for 70 years!  Anyway, I totally got why Betty would have made that choice.

My least favorite arc was the LSD stuff.  It gave Weiner complete license to have Roger say or do anything.  He did.  Ugh.  At least it incentivized me to play some fantastic music by the Moody Blues.

[Ohiopirate02]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I still wonder about them as well, and while I'm not usually a fan wanker?  I disliked the ending so much I have rewritten that in my mind as well.  I get that Betty died, and though sad, it fit.  I think she smoked more than anyone on screen.  I pretty much loved the way the show ended for everyone except Don.  (I still don't buy that he would just hand over his kids to either his detested brother in law OR to Henry.)  So I envision a spin off with Don, who always has loved his kids, trying to make it work, failing a lot, but filled with Mad Men-esque humor and pathos.  

 

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Anyway, when Roger said the line MW said something, I can't remember what, but it seemed to be pretty explicitly him reminding us that just because Betty and Sally had ideas about Don not raising the kids didn't mean that Don might not simply decide that was best and do it. 

 

I completely understand why Betty did not think that Don was a suitable guardian for the boys based on his past behavior.  Don taking full custody of Bobby and Gene means he cannot disappear like he used to.  Don definitely could have fought for custody, and finally settled down with his sons.  He had it in him to break his cycle if he chose to do it.  I agree that Don loves his kids, but is loving them enough?  Can Don sustain week after week after week of being home at a set time each night?  Nannies can only do so much, and the last thing Don needs is Wife #4 let alone his sons getting a new step-parent.  

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

I completely understand why Betty did not think that Don was a suitable guardian for the boys based on his past behavior.  Don taking full custody of Bobby and Gene means he cannot disappear like he used to.  Don definitely could have fought for custody, and finally settled down with his sons.  He had it in him to break his cycle if he chose to do it.  I agree that Don loves his kids, but is loving them enough?  Can Don sustain week after week after week of being home at a set time each night?  Nannies can only do so much, and the last thing Don needs is Wife #4 let alone his sons getting a new step-parent.  

For me, one of the reasons Don seems healthier at the end of the show is that he at least starts to accept himself for who he is, and who he is is not Leave it to Beaver Dad. Which doesn't mean he can't be a dad--he has his own gifts as a parent. But throughout the show he gets into trouble imagining himself in the role of the dad/husband in the commercial, then getting himself into the role because he looks the part, then feeling alienated from it because it's not really him, and then having the impulse to run away.

The great thing about the culture change on the show, imo, is that people start being able to build lives that suit them instead of aspiring to the same cookie cutter life that doesn't fit everyone. So Joan can be a single mom running a business hoping to find a man who can handle that and Pete can realize that he actually wants to be a husband and dad. Don doesn't have to be the guy he was presenting himself as in S1 in order to be a father. But he does have to put himself out there and show up to work at it.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

I completely understand why Betty did not think that Don was a suitable guardian for the boys based on his past behavior.  Don taking full custody of Bobby and Gene means he cannot disappear like he used to.  Don definitely could have fought for custody, and finally settled down with his sons.  He had it in him to break his cycle if he chose to do it.  I agree that Don loves his kids, but is loving them enough?  Can Don sustain week after week after week of being home at a set time each night?  Nannies can only do so much, and the last thing Don needs is Wife #4 let alone his sons getting a new step-parent.  

Well, Don is super rich now, even richer than he used to be.  He can most definitely hire a suitable nanny, live in, full time, even setting her up with her own attached place for when he's home, and a sub for days off.  

Aside from that, Sally already lives at school, Bobby will be in school during the day, and Gene will be starting school himself in just a couple of years.

I doubt he will be a perfect parent, but then again, VERY few are.  Don couldn't have fought for custody, Betty threatened to call the army on him for desertion.  Leaving his children with their mother was one thing, leaving them with either man Betty had in mind?  Ridiculous.  

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

For me, one of the reasons Don seems healthier at the end of the show is that he at least starts to accept himself for who he is, and who he is is not Leave it to Beaver Dad. Which doesn't mean he can't be a dad--he has his own gifts as a parent. But throughout the show he gets into trouble imagining himself in the role of the dad/husband in the commercial, then getting himself into the role because he looks the part, then feeling alienated from it because it's not really him, and then having the impulse to run away.

The great thing about the culture change on the show, imo, is that people start being able to build lives that suit them instead of aspiring to the same cookie cutter life that doesn't fit everyone. So Joan can be a single mom running a business hoping to find a man who can handle that and Pete can realize that he actually wants to be a husband and dad. Don doesn't have to be the guy he was presenting himself as in S1 in order to be a father. But he does have to put himself out there and show up to work at it.

I was raised by a single mom who worked full time, with lots of overtime, varied shifts as well, and we barely got by financially, those years not being particularly good for women working.  Some days she wasn't off work until 11PM.  We got by.  

Don will get by, and with his resources, he'll be able to hire the very best, probably full time while Gene is still not in school.  Heck, he might even pay their old nanny a fortune just to come back to work for him.  He won't make it home in time for dinner with the kids every night, but I do think he loves them, and that is important.

Henry may love them too, but he's not their dad, and I think Henry is probably more likely to remarry than Don anyway, especially since he wants a political career.

Ha!

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was raised by a single mom who worked full time, with lots of overtime, varied shifts as well, and we barely got by financially, those years not being particularly good for women working.  Some days she wasn't off work until 11PM.  We got by.  

 

That makes me think of when Peggy is talking about mom's picking up dinner at Burger Chef and Don automatically says working moms are depressing! And it's obviously not because of his own experience since it's not like his life before his father's death was so much nicer. He's just internalizing those values. Yet starting in the 60s single dads with hired help were really popular! Family Affair, My 3 Sons, Courtship of Eddy's Father--and none of those dads were expected to be the kind of dads we expect dads to be today even.

It's funny to think about nannies, in fact, because we've got characters who had such loving nannies, like Betty did. We don't see any of Pete's nannies but MW suggested that it was the same for him--God knows his own parents obviously didn't give him love. 

[Luckylyn]

This is a really interesting character/fashion analysis about Betty and Megan. At times,  I feel like Megan didn’t fully have an individual identity but adapted to those around her.  
 

[sistermagpie]

That was a great video, especially how it eventually noted that it's Peggy and Joan who are ultimately the real "modern women" if we're to call it that, because they evolve from the inside out. I remember after A Little Kiss a lot of reviews were gushing about how Megan was the first truly modern woman and I thought...wait, she's a young sexy woman married to an older rich husband. How is that particularly modern? 

In the end, while I find Betty more interesting as a person, I really do find Megan fascinating as a character/idea. I almost wished the video had mentioned something pointed out by Tom and Lorenzo about that party of Megan's. Neither woman makes her own money, but Betty's marriage is more of a job in that she's expected to raise kids and be a hostess, and she stands out at that party when she voices her own opinion about something.

Megan stands out at her party too in that that Pucci dress she's wearing is high fashion and so expensive. She's playing at being a starving artist, but when she actually had to be that she quit. So here she's surrounded by people in shabby fashionable hippy clothes while she's in a wildly expensive designer dress. In fact, while I don't think those people are friends with Megan just for her money, I do think that's what makes her the hostess. That is, she's not the type of person whose social life is an artform and who has a special talent for bringing people together, if you know what I mean.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That was a great video, especially how it eventually noted that it's Peggy and Joan who are ultimately the real "modern women" if we're to call it that, because they evolve from the inside out. I remember after A Little Kiss a lot of reviews were gushing about how Megan was the first truly modern woman and I thought...wait, she's a young sexy woman married to an older rich husband. How is that particularly modern? 

In the end, while I find Betty more interesting as a person, I really do find Megan fascinating as a character/idea. I almost wished the video had mentioned something pointed out by Tom and Lorenzo about that party of Megan's. Neither woman makes her own money, but Betty's marriage is more of a job in that she's expected to raise kids and be a hostess, and she stands out at that party when she voices her own opinion about something.

Megan stands out at her party too in that that Pucci dress she's wearing is high fashion and so expensive. She's playing at being a starving artist, but when she actually had to be that she quit. So here she's surrounded by people in shabby fashionable hippy clothes while she's in a wildly expensive designer dress. In fact, while I don't think those people are friends with Megan just for her money, I do think that's what makes her the hostess. That is, she's not the type of person whose social life is an artform and who has a special talent for bringing people together, if you know what I mean.

I dunno about that.  Megan says earlier in the show that everyone loves her parties, and she loves to give them (before the Don's birthday debacle.)

I think the canyon parties were part that she just enjoys giving parties, and part networking.  The Gucci was out of place though, UNLESS it was to impress either some Hollywood people, or just to wow Don.

Looking through that video, I wore a lot of the clothes Megan wore when I was in high school, and my mother certainly wore the Betty stuff.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I dunno about that.  Megan says earlier in the show that everyone loves her parties, and she loves to give them (before the Don's birthday debacle.)

 

Yeah, I don't mean to suggest she was lying there at all. She's clearly giving a party in S6 that's going well, so, like I said, I don't mean to suggest that all those people are just there because Megan has money. She's not throwing it around even. That's not why anybody's there that I can see. There's nothing about her that would make it seem like she couldn't throw a good party. I'm more just making the same distinction about that as with everything else mentioned in the video--she can absolutely throw a good party where people have a good time and she likes doing it--it's another thing that she's good at relatively easily. I just can't ever look at anything in her life in CA without seeing some sign of the conflicts that were always coming up b/w her life there and being Don's wife. Like the video says, she's very good at looking the part but not usually living it entirely.

I remember my brother once making a joke about one of our cousins who always seemed to get the wardrobe for something rather than actually doing it, but he wasn't as successful as Megan at it.

 

[txhorns79]

42 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I just can't ever look at anything in her life in CA without seeing some sign of the conflicts that were always coming up b/w her life there and being Don's wife.

Oh definitely.  Their relationship is in deep trouble by the time she goes to California, and gets progressively worse (in part caused by Megan's floundering career) with the death knell being Don's revelation that he had been on leave from SCDP for months.  And you are right, you can see it everywhere.  When they were in New York, the apartment feels like their shared home.  You can see modern touches, but it feels like a place where two settled adults live.  In California, the house is all Megan.  It feels like it is perfect for someone who is young and single, who likes the hippie-aesthetic, but has money to be comfortable.  It's definitely not a place where a 40-something married man lives.             

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Oh definitely.  Their relationship is in deep trouble by the time she goes to California, and gets progressively worse (in part caused by Megan's floundering career) with the death knell being Don's revelation that he had been on leave from SCDP for months.  And you are right, you can see it everywhere.  When they were in New York, the apartment feels like their shared home.  You can see modern touches, but it feels like a place where two settled adults live.  In California, the house is all Megan.  It feels like it is perfect for someone who is young and single, who likes the hippie-aesthetic, but has money to be comfortable.  It's definitely not a place where a 40-something married man lives.             

And there's that great opening argument where she's mad about him getting a TV, something that as an ad man he would not only need for his job but would expect people to appreciate. Meanwhile Megan thinks it will give the wrong impression to the people who come to her house who are too artistic and poor for a TV...

...even though she's in California desperately trying to get a jo on TV herself. 

[txhorns79]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And there's that great opening argument where she's mad about him getting a TV, something that as an ad man he would not only need for his job but would expect people to appreciate. Meanwhile Megan thinks it will give the wrong impression to the people who come to her house who are too artistic and poor for a TV...

In fairness, while you are entirely right that Megan's objection was about the impression the tv would give (based on ads from the time period, a color tv and console of that size would cost around $335.00, or about $2,400.00 in 2021 money), she did have a tv in her house.  It was just a smaller black and white model.    

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

In fairness, while you are entirely right that Megan's objection was about the impression the tv would give (based on ads from the time period, a color tv and console of that size would cost around $335.00, or about $2,400.00 in 2021 money), she did have a tv in her house.  It was just a smaller black and white model.    

I didn't even remember she had a TV--but you're right, there's a big difference between the TV Don bought, that says the TV is a certerpiece, and a smaller b&w one. Along with the money and the impression it's a giant piece of furniture that takes up a lot of space and doesn't really go with the rest of the room. I'd be mad if somebody brought something like that into my house as well. But then, that in itself goes back to the central issue: this is Megan's house and Don can't just buy furniture for it. Kind of saying the quiet part out loud there.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I dunno about that.  Megan says earlier in the show that everyone loves her parties, and she loves to give them (before the Don's birthday debacle.)

I think the canyon parties were part that she just enjoys giving parties, and part networking.  The Gucci was out of place though, UNLESS it was to impress either some Hollywood people, or just to wow Don.

Looking through that video, I wore a lot of the clothes Megan wore when I was in high school, and my mother certainly wore the Betty stuff.

 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I don't mean to suggest she was lying there at all. She's clearly giving a party in S6 that's going well, so, like I said, I don't mean to suggest that all those people are just there because Megan has money. She's not throwing it around even. That's not why anybody's there that I can see. There's nothing about her that would make it seem like she couldn't throw a good party. I'm more just making the same distinction about that as with everything else mentioned in the video--she can absolutely throw a good party where people have a good time and she likes doing it--it's another thing that she's good at relatively easily. I just can't ever look at anything in her life in CA without seeing some sign of the conflicts that were always coming up b/w her life there and being Don's wife. Like the video says, she's very good at looking the part but not usually living it entirely.

I remember my brother once making a joke about one of our cousins who always seemed to get the wardrobe for something rather than actually doing it, but he wasn't as successful as Megan at it.

 

 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That was a great video, especially how it eventually noted that it's Peggy and Joan who are ultimately the real "modern women" if we're to call it that, because they evolve from the inside out. I remember after A Little Kiss a lot of reviews were gushing about how Megan was the first truly modern woman and I thought...wait, she's a young sexy woman married to an older rich husband. How is that particularly modern? 

In the end, while I find Betty more interesting as a person, I really do find Megan fascinating as a character/idea. I almost wished the video had mentioned something pointed out by Tom and Lorenzo about that party of Megan's. Neither woman makes her own money, but Betty's marriage is more of a job in that she's expected to raise kids and be a hostess, and she stands out at that party when she voices her own opinion about something.

Megan stands out at her party too in that that Pucci dress she's wearing is high fashion and so expensive. She's playing at being a starving artist, but when she actually had to be that she quit. So here she's surrounded by people in shabby fashionable hippy clothes while she's in a wildly expensive designer dress. In fact, while I don't think those people are friends with Megan just for her money, I do think that's what makes her the hostess. That is, she's not the type of person whose social life is an artform and who has a special talent for bringing people together, if you know what I mean.

I do think the character of Megan is fascinating in hindsight. I always remember this scene because Don's disastrous birthday party was Megan's coming out party as "Mrs. Don Draper".

I remember she says that everyone loves her parties and people go home and have sex afterwards. To me this is a very beautiful woman with a fairly nice personality not realizing that she is not a particularly good hostess or sexy.

A good hostess makes everyone feel warm and welcome...Megan's parties, after she came into money by marrying Don, were always about her.

Megan does not realize that as the wife of the boss, most people from the office are only at the party because they feel like they have no other choice. Your boss is not your friend but someone who literally holds your livelihood in their hands.

At the part, she does not try to integrate the people from the office with her artsy friends. It does not occur to her that her artsy friends might benefit from some advertising commissions or that the office people could use some of the artistic talent in their campaigns.  Instead she is being the queen bee of the artistic set, probably a status that has been brought about by marrying "money" and not in their respect at her talent as an actress.

Then she does her song and dance. Again, Megan is beautiful but she is stiff and awkward when she tries to be sexy. Don is horrified.

In Megan's mind this party is for Don to "loosen up" but in truth this party is for Megan to bask in her new status as Don's wife. It illustrates how much they really do not know or understand about each other as a couple.

 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

 

I do think the character of Megan is fascinating in hindsight. I always remember this scene because Don's disastrous birthday party was Megan's coming out party as "Mrs. Don Draper".

I remember she says that everyone loves her parties and people go home and have sex afterwards. To me this is a very beautiful woman with a fairly nice personality not realizing that she is not a particularly good hostess or sexy.

A good hostess makes everyone feel warm and welcome...Megan's parties, after she came into money by marrying Don, were always about her.

Megan does not realize that as the wife of the boss, most people from the office are only at the party because they feel like they have no other choice. Your boss is not your friend but someone who literally holds your livelihood in their hands.

At the part, she does not try to integrate the people from the office with her artsy friends. It does not occur to her that her artsy friends might benefit from some advertising commissions or that the office people could use some of the artistic talent in their campaigns.  Instead she is being the queen bee of the artistic set, probably a status that has been brought about by marrying "money" and not in their respect at her talent as an actress.

Then she does her song and dance. Again, Megan is beautiful but she is stiff and awkward when she tries to be sexy. Don is horrified.

In Megan's mind this party is for Don to "loosen up" but in truth this party is for Megan to bask in her new status as Don's wife. It illustrates how much they really do not know or understand about each other as a couple.

 

I never thought about it like that, but you're right. She does a performance at the party in California too. I think that performance was for Don, iirc, but it's still a centerpiece dance. Which isn't a bad thing for her to do at a party or anything, but what you're saying is a little what I was thinking in my original point, that she can throw a fine party, but she's not like an artist at it. She's not one of those people who loves putting different people together that you think will click or should meet each other professionally etc. 

And the party in A Little Kiss is pretty good proof about her limits as a hostess given how completely she seemed to misjudge what she was doing, dragging the whole office to a party for Don after not being able to find personal friends to fill the room. Thinking Don would like it even after he said he wouldn't. Then getting mad at everyone for ruining it as if they were supposed to follow her script. It's like a lot of things--she's good at it to an extent, but she's probably not going to get much better at it.

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think the canyon parties were part that she just enjoys giving parties, and part networking.  The Gucci was out of place though, UNLESS it was to impress either some Hollywood people, or just to wow Don.

Pucci was very big at the time.  (Pucci did Braniff's stewardess uniforms and they were incredible.)  She probably was wearing it to impress people.  Tom and Lorenzo made a nice point in Megan's last episode about how Megan was likely living on a very reduced budget because she was wearing the same dress to her lunch with Harry in May 1970 (only it was wrinkled) that she greeted Don in, at the airport in January 1969.  

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

And the party in A Little Kiss is pretty good proof about her limits as a hostess given how completely she seemed to misjudge what she was doing, dragging the whole office to a party for Don after not being able to find personal friends to fill the room. Thinking Don would like it even after he said he wouldn't. Then getting mad at everyone for ruining it as if they were supposed to follow her script. It's like a lot of things--she's good at it to an extent, but she's probably not going to get much better at it.

You could also hold this up as an early sign of future trouble in Megan's marriage to Don.  Though I liked the party, if only because it showed us that Megan was not just going to be another Betty.   

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Pucci was very big at the time.  (Pucci did Braniff's stewardess uniforms and they were incredible.)  She probably was wearing it to impress people.  Tom and Lorenzo made a nice point in Megan's last episode about how Megan was likely living on a very reduced budget because she was wearing the same dress to her lunch with Harry in May 1970 (only it was wrinkled) that she greeted Don in, at the airport in January 1969.  

I like that it also suggests she wears that dress when she's trying to create a certain impression, that she's in control and confident when she's really not underneath. 

41 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

 

You could also hold this up as an early sign of future trouble in Megan's marriage to Don.  Though I liked the party, if only because it showed us that Megan was not just going to be another Betty.   

Especially since we discover here that Megan knows that Don is really Dick Whitman, something you'd think would mean she knew him so well. But in reality it's a bit the opposite--he didn't know her that well when he told her so it wasn't as big a deal and her being breezy about it means she doesn't really get him that much because of it, if that makes sense.

[Umbelina]

13 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

You could also hold this up as an early sign of future trouble in Megan's marriage to Don.  Though I liked the party, if only because it showed us that Megan was not just going to be another Betty.   

 

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Especially since we discover here that Megan knows that Don is really Dick Whitman, something you'd think would mean she knew him so well. But in reality it's a bit the opposite--he didn't know her that well when he told her so it wasn't as big a deal and her being breezy about it means she doesn't really get him that much because of it, if that makes sense.

To both of these great comments.

Yes indeed.  To Don, marriage was "what the husband wants is what happens."  He was used to complete control, with an inconsequential but annoying squabble now and then from the "little woman."  

Megan came in wanting a marriage, a partnership, both husband and wife supporting and adjusting to each other to create a new "whole."  

In a pretty significant way, moving from the fifties mind set of marriage to what will become more and more common.  Equality in marriage, BOTH man and woman being important, one not merely a satellite around the other.  Now, of course, that's never really happened, and instead, for a long time, even today in some cases, women simply moved to both working full time, and still responsible for cleaning, cooking, and child raising, while "keeping the 'man of the house' happy."  

However, times were changing, and Megan's story brought that into Don's world.  He obviously didn't handle that well.  

In some ways that little speech of Roger's new wife was part of this same storyline.  Not a direct quote, but close.  "Guess what, I am your wife, I am a person in this marriage, and you don't get to order me around and tell me what to do!"  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes indeed.  To Don, marriage was "what the husband wants is what happens."  He was used to complete control, with an inconsequential but annoying squabble now and then from the "little woman."  

 

I remember at the time people would often bring up a quote of MW's where he said Don and Megan were soulmates as proof that Megan was totally going to save Don from himself. And when I finally looked up the actual quote what he said was, "Don and Megan are soulmates. They're like one person. And that person is Don."

Totally the opposite of what it sounded like at first!

In Don's case, too, it seems like it's an even bigger issue than the usual 50s power imbalance. When it came to marriage, Don's wife had such incredible expectations put on them nobody could live up to them, it seemed. Once they stopped seeming like they would be what he needed them to be, he just completely diassociated from them. It wound up happening even more quickly with Megan than with Betty. Or not--I guess we can't tell. Betty 's attitude made her adjust herself to him for longer than Megan did.

[Luckylyn]

Don’s expectations of his wives was always too much.  He thought some perfect woman would save him and he wouldn’t have to do the hard work to improve himself.   Don didn’t know how to cope when the women he married didn’t  fit his fantasy of them.   He was so focused at on what a woman would do for him that it didn’t seem to occur to him that Betty and Megan had needs of their own.   There is no perfect savior woman but he kept looking for one.  He needed a therapist not a wife.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Luckylyn

[qtpye]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I remember at the time people would often bring up a quote of MW's where he said Don and Megan were soulmates as proof that Megan was totally going to save Don from himself. And when I finally looked up the actual quote what he said was, "Don and Megan are soulmates. They're like one person. And that person is Don."

Totally the opposite of what it sounded like at first!

In Don's case, too, it seems like it's an even bigger issue than the usual 50s power imbalance. When it came to marriage, Don's wife had such incredible expectations put on them nobody could live up to them, it seemed. Once they stopped seeming like they would be what he needed them to be, he just completely diassociated from them. It wound up happening even more quickly with Megan than with Betty. Or not--I guess we can't tell. Betty 's attitude made her adjust herself to him for longer than Megan did.

 

8 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Don’s expectations of his wives was always too much.  He thought some perfect woman would save him and he wouldn’t have to do the hard work to improve himself.   Don didn’t know how to cope when the women he married didn’t  fit his fantasy of them.   He was so focused at on what a woman would do for him that it didn’t seem to occur to him that Betty and Megan had needs of their own.   There is no perfect savior woman but he kept looking for one.  He needed a therapist not a wife.

Yes, the marriage was most likely doomed from the minute Don put Anna's ring on Megan's finger.

https://medium.com/illumination/mad-men-an-analysis-of-don-and-megans-marriage-doomed-to-fail-e1694c4f2fbe