Mad Men - General Discussion

[Melancholy]

I love the twist in Roger's heart attack. From his, "I've been living the last 20 years like I'm on shore leave" speech and embrace of Mona/Margaret, you expect that Roger had a near-death epiphany to live a more responsible life and the cynic would guess that the epiphany won't take and actually change his long term behavior. However, Roger did have an epiphany that lasted... and it was to have even MOAR fun at everyone else's expense. In S1, Roger actually is doing his version of responsible. Stay with Mona and provide for her but screw around on the side. Not bust his ass as a rainmaker but go get Menkens and Israeli tourism and walk all the stairs to see the Nixon crew so Bert doesn't get angry. After the heart attacks, he tries throwing out even his limited responsibilities and the rationale comes out. "I don't want to die with that woman." "I'm just saying this is the office and that's life. And this is good and that's life." Roger goes back to higher levels of responsibility in S5-7 but that's after feeling disrespect and disapproval which he never felt when he was untouchable with Lucky Strike or even with Mona who was going to just suck it up with a fifth of gin every day over making a scene.  

[txhorns79]

Quote

I always thought Don's animosity toward Harry came from Harry's role in Sal getting fired, mainly because he never seemed to have a problem with Harry before that and that was the most recent situation involving Harry when it came out that Don didn't like him.  However, there's no real evidence that's what Don's problem with Harry was.

That seems like a stretch to me.  I think Harry just become more pompous and full of himself as time went by (due to his job and growing sense of self-importance), and that turned off other people.   

Quote

Yeah, I think Don's just throwing that out to stick it to Roger because it was nobody's fault they lost Lucky Strike. Sure Pete probably would have been more proactive working the account because he didn't have Roger's position, but it's not like they lose the account because of Roger. It seems like if it was just up to Lee Garner Jr. they'd still have it. What Pete wouldn't have done is lie about it so completely--but Don doesn't know Roger did that anyway.

I think it's Roger's fault in the sense that Roger wasn't paying much attention to what was happening internally with Lucky Strike.  He may not have been able to stop the consolidation, but at least things wouldn't have played out the way they did with his being caught completely off guard, and the firm falling into immediate jeopardy.  Instead, if he had paid attention, the firm may have been able to cushion themselves better against the abrupt loss of such a big client. 

[voiceover]

Here's a reason I liked Megan a teenyeenyweenie bit: she brought us her parents.

I'm watching "At the Codfish Ball" for the second time today, and the Québécois Bickersons are my favorite part, and it's not even close. They need to be their own Eric Rohmer movie.

*runs off to find out if there's a Calvet YouTube channel.*

[qtpye]

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 4:49 PM, txhorns79 said:

That seems like a stretch to me.  I think Harry just become more pompous and full of himself as time went by (due to his job and growing sense of self-importance), and that turned off other people.   

I think it's Roger's fault in the sense that Roger wasn't paying much attention to what was happening internally with Lucky Strike.  He may not have been able to stop the consolidation, but at least things wouldn't have played out the way they did with his being caught completely off guard, and the firm falling into immediate jeopardy.  Instead, if he had paid attention, the firm may have been able to cushion themselves better against the abrupt loss of such a big client. 

It's funny, Roger is rich, handsome, funny, and born to power and prestige.  He really is the princeling that everyone loves.  It was really interesting to see how the character reacted to some really bad fortune for the first time in his life...he literally ran and hid.  Even though Pete was also born into priviledge, he is used to being an underdog scrapper, who everyone under estimates.

Speaking of Pete, how does everyone react to his rape of the German nanny?  I remember hating him so much then, yet somehow he got redeemed and I was actually glad he got a happy life at the end.

[ivygirl]

15 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Speaking of Pete, how does everyone react to his rape of the German nanny?  I remember hating him so much then, yet somehow he got redeemed and I was actually glad he got a happy life at the end.

I just watched the last two episodes last night, so this is fresh for me :) I call him "Creepy Pete," if that's any indication of my feelings about him. But in those last two episodes, I truly bought that he had an opportunity for a fresh start in life, and that his reconciliation with Trudy was real--in fact, I thought, "Dangit, PETE is making me cry." I saw a genuine look of relief and joy on his face. So I smiled, too, because I had hope for him. 

It speaks to the strength of Vincent Kartheiser's acting skills that he can convey a true change in heart on his face and with his body language. And even his tone of voice--it felt less pinched and more relaxed.

[Athena]

53 minutes ago, ivygirl said:

It speaks to the strength of Vincent Kartheiser's acting skills that he can convey a true change in heart on his face and with his body language. And even his tone of voice--it felt less pinched and more relaxed.

Kartheriser was the most unnderrated actor on the show for me.

It's one thing to be handsome and play a charisma character well like Don and Roger, but it's another thing to play a creepier, less handsome and less charismatic guy like Pete. Yet at the end of it, the writing and the acting made Pete come into his own and that in itself is a sort of charisma.

I was angry and creeped out by Pete frequently through the course of the show. From the moment he rejected Peggy's sexy dance to the nanny to his many disturbing and weird affairs/flirtations, I was thoroughly disgusted. I laughed when they made him do the pratfall and yes, I did feel he deserved some of the bad things that happeened. However, I still felt sorry for him when his mother died, when he got beat up, and for a lot of things. In the end, I too felt the rush of hope and excitement as I saw Trudy and Pete reunite to a new life.

[Melancholy]

It's interesting to compare the au pair story with Roger and the aluminum sliding twins and Harry and his actresses. I do think the au pair story is related to those instances of sexual harassment and abuse of power but not rape. Pete didn't have a gun to the au pair's head. Rather, he was threatening her with being returned to the same position as before he found her-  having to explain to the lady of the house why the dress was missing. Pete dangled help but then later, presented the au pair with obligations to sleep with him to keep the help. Roger does something similar with the twins where he gives them a job because they're the right face but then presents them with obligations to get him off to keep their job. 

Roger isn't as bad in a bunch of ways. Mirabelle seemed into him for him, but that's hard to tell for sure. They sure didn't want to kiss and feel up each other and only did so because Roger was dangling their job in front of them. But the au pair clearly didn't want to sleep with Pete, unless she was threatened. The twins were American actresses who according to them have "been around the block" and they appeared to know what they were consenting to when they took the job. The au pair was a naive girl who had no idea that Pete had ulterior motives. Roger was dangling a perk in front of the twins- a job. Pete was dangling a threat, even if it was one Gundrun was subject to because of her own behavior in borrowing a dress without permission and ruining it. 

Ooh. Speaking of the Québécois Bickersons (lol), maybe it's a UO but I think Megan was wrong that Marie competes with Megan for everything and Marie touched Don repeatedly as part of their that competition. On first watch, I was ready to agree with Megan because Megan is actually close to the situation while Don who didn't see that dynamic was too far away. But after seeing Marie's role in the show, competition with Megan was never a factor. And Marie didn't seem flirtatious with Don. Like, I think Joan was too harsh on Gail but there's a dynamic where I see the mother competing with the daughter. 

[sistermagpie]

The au pair situation is really Pete at his worse--even though it's true Gudrun did have a choice it's hard to not look at a drunk guy showing up at the door like that and not think of Date Rape. She could totally have just chosen to take her chances with her employers regarding what she'd done and many people would have taken that option rather than have sex with a guy they didn't want to sleep with. Iirc, that episode has so many situations where there's people in power and people without power, and it's just so easy for the person in power to be threatening. The way I read it (and I think MW and VK agree with this thought it's still subjective) Pete didn't even go into the situation thinking he was going to get sex out of it. He really was trying to be a good guy and feel like a good guy--that would have been enough. But all the girl had to do was make him feel a little rejected and it became all about his resentment and he could make demands.

I thought the situation was also a great example of just the way rape would be seen then. Pete probably doesn't consider himself as threatening anyone really. But I think what saves the ep is it's one of the few times a guy on the show acts like that and gets that he did something wrong. Whether or not Pete became enlightened about consent in a 21st century sense, when the neighbor comes and talks to him he realizes that he's "that guy" that he doesn't want to be and confesses to his wife. 

LOL-this also reminds me of that hilarious moment where Harry sleeps with Lakshmi--or at least has sex with her on his desk. She says this is a trade for him to stay away from Paul and Harry's like...but you already gave away what you were bargaining with? Like he's genuinely confused and so was I.

I do love Megan's parents when they're at their best--Don so did not know what he was getting into there. I seem to remember there's a funny line where somebody says something about how they're all going to an Edward Albee play that makes you think "Actually, you're IN an Edward Albee play!" 

9 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Ooh. Speaking of the Québécois Bickersons (lol), maybe it's a UO but I think Megan was wrong that Marie competes with Megan for everything and Marie touched Don repeatedly as part of their that competition. On first watch, I was ready to agree with Megan because Megan is actually close to the situation while Don who didn't see that dynamic was too far away. But after seeing Marie's role in the show, competition with Megan was never a factor. And Marie didn't seem flirtatious with Don. Like, I think Joan was too harsh on Gail but there's a dynamic where I see the mother competing with the daughter. 

I hadn't remembered that but just thinking back on the dynamic with Marie and Don I have to agree--I never remember Marie seeming flirtatious with Don. When she has a scene where she seems to be allying with Don against Megan it's not as a rival woman but more like two adults dealing with a child. 

[film noire]

3 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I truly bought that he had an opportunity for a fresh start in life, and that his reconciliation with Trudy was real--in fact, I thought, "Dangit, PETE is making me cry." I saw a genuine look of relief and joy on his face. So I smiled, too, because I had hope for him. 

Me, too - that happy ending shot of Trudy, Pete and their daughter literally flying away from it all was unexpected and beautiful.

And I think it's a great twist that Pete - also struggling with ambition and discontent and affairs  -- got the ending many hoped Don would get; a future driven by some kind of evolution and awareness.  

[TigerLynx]

10 minutes ago, film noire said:

Me, too - that happy ending shot of Trudy, Pete and their daughter literally flying away from it all was unexpected and beautiful.

And I think it's a great twist that Pete - also struggling with ambition and discontent and affairs  -- got the ending many hoped Don would get; a future driven by some kind of evolution and awareness.  

I liked the contrast with Pete/Trudy/Tammy moving on to something new and being happy about it, Peggy/Stan being happy where they were, and Joan starting her own business, compared to Don and Roger who both lamented how things used to be at Sterling Cooper and missing it.  Roger and Don were the ones who took them down the path of sell Sterling Cooper, start own firm, merge firm, sell new firm, and they were the ones who ended up regretting it.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, film noire said:

And I think it's a great twist that Pete - also struggling with ambition and discontent and affairs  -- got the ending many hoped Don would get; a future driven by some kind of evolution and awareness.  

And that he's the character who started out feeling so oppressed by family but wound up realizing he actually is a family guy when he's free to choose it. When the show starts out everyone feels like they have to aspire to the same life of a husband who works and a wife who raises kids. By the end everyone's found their own unique set up--Pete just happens to be the one that looks like the old-fashioned choice. (Pete who started out being one of the people who questioned that life the most.)

[txhorns79]

Quote

It's funny, Roger is rich, handsome, funny, and born to power and prestige.  He really is the princeling that everyone loves.  It was really interesting to see how the character reacted to some really bad fortune for the first time in his life...he literally ran and hid.  Even though Pete was also born into privilege, he is used to being an underdog scrapper, who everyone under estimates.

I think it comes down to how they were treated by their parents.  From all accounts, Roger's mother essentially worshiped him, while Pete's parents were cold and mostly unsupportive.  So Roger mostly got to coast, while Pete had to prove himself.   

[qtpye]

On Friday, September 01, 2017 at 2:52 PM, txhorns79 said:

I think it comes down to how they were treated by their parents.  From all accounts, Roger's mother essentially worshiped him, while Pete's parents were cold and mostly unsupportive.  So Roger mostly got to coast, while Pete had to prove himself.   

Lord, Pete's parents were horrible.  It is like someone took every  unflattering stereotype about rich wasps and squeezed it into these two.

[TigerLynx]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 1:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

And that he's the character who started out feeling so oppressed by family but wound up realizing he actually is a family guy when he's free to choose it. When the show starts out everyone feels like they have to aspire to the same life of a husband who works and a wife who raises kids. By the end everyone's found their own unique set up--Pete just happens to be the one that looks like the old-fashioned choice. (Pete who started out being one of the people who questioned that life the most.)

I think that is it in a nutshell.  At the end, the characters who are happy (in their relationship, job, etc.) are the ones who have chosen what they want.  They didn't do it because it was expected, or convenient, or the company got sold again.  They made a conscious choice about what they wanted.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I think that is it in a nutshell.  At the end, the characters who are happy (in their relationship, job, etc.) are the ones who have chosen what they want.  They didn't do it because it was expected, or convenient, or the company got sold again.  They made a conscious choice about what they wanted.

It's one of the things that makes the series so uplifting for me. That everyone in the end is at least trying to live a life based on who they really are. Even if they haven't found their ideal place yet (Joan hasn't yet found love, we don't know exactly what Don's personal life will look like) we know they won't be chasing after something they think they're supposed to have, and we know they don't feel like if they don't have a certain life (married, perfect husband at office, perfect wife raising kids in the suburbs etc.) they'll have nothing.

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's one of the things that makes the series so uplifting for me. That everyone in the end is at least trying to live a life based on who they really are. Even if they haven't found their ideal place yet (Joan hasn't yet found love, we don't know exactly what Don's personal life will look like) we know they won't be chasing after something they think they're supposed to have, and we know they don't feel like if they don't have a certain life (married, perfect husband at office, perfect wife raising kids in the suburbs etc.) they'll have nothing.

The fact that everything was not wrapped up in a pretty pink bow made it feel real.  It feels like these characters are continuing with their lives as we speak.

Pete, the guy who could not live outside of Manhattan, might love or hate the midwest.  He might appreciate what Trudy brings to his life or fall back on bad habits. Does he finally have the power and respect he craves?

I could go on like this for all the characters.  This means that they are not static, but fully formed individuals in their own right in my imagination, which is quite a feat.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

The fact that everything was not wrapped up in a pretty pink bow made it feel real.  It feels like these characters are continuing with their lives as we speak.

 

Right - I love how the ending felt like both an ending and a beginning, the way things do when you start a new phase of your life. It doesn't feel like everybody's settled now just because they've gotten to the end of their MM time. I like how it felt like they had earned their new places--they've all genuinely learned things even if it took them a while. But like you said, that doesn't mean they're all safe from their previous flaws or the slings and arrows of fate. 

That's why I never liked the idea a lot of people talked about, which was ending with some flash forward that was supposed to tell us where everyone "ended up." On this show you only "end up" when you die. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

That's why I never liked the idea a lot of people talked about, which was ending with some flash forward that was supposed to tell us where everyone "ended up." On this show you only "end up" when you die. 

Seriously.  If the show started flash forwarding, Betty is dead within a few months, Don and Roger probably both die in the 1980s (or early 90s for Don), and that's a bleak way to go out.  And I can't even imagine the horrors of Peggy in late 70s fashion, or with shoulder pads, a perm and some terrible business lady power suit in the 80s.  Though I do like to imagine when Pan Am went bankrupt, Joan took over the the building and the sign now says Holloway Harris.   

[qtpye]

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Seriously.  If the show started flash forwarding, Betty is dead within a few months, Don and Roger probably both die in the 1980s (or early 90s for Don), and that's a bleak way to go out.  And I can't even imagine the horrors of Peggy in late 70s fashion, or with shoulder pads, a perm and some terrible business lady power suit in the 80s.  Though I do like to imagine when Pan Am went bankrupt, Joan took over the the building and the sign now says Holloway Harris.   

Your future for Don is a lot happier then I imagine.  I think he reaches the pinnacle of sucess with the Coke ad and then it goes down hill.  First, Don's enlightenment from California is short lived.  He hates the culture at MCann and will also have to deal with now being the only parent to his children, though they do have a loving relationship with Henry.  Anna Draper is gone and there are no longer any maternal figures to run to in order to enable his bad behavior.  As he gets older he truly does not understand the youth culture of baby boomers, who take things like indoor plumbing and electricity for granted  Tv becomes more important and he watches Harry get promoted above him.    He continues to drink heavily and that starts leading to disaster.  He dies in the seventies and it is looked upon as the end of an era in advertising.

[txhorns79]

Quote

First, Don's enlightenment from California is short lived.  He hates the culture at MCann and will also have to deal with now being the only parent to his children, though they do have a loving relationship with Henry.  Anna Draper is gone and there are no longer any maternal figures to run to in order to enable his bad behavior.  As he gets older he truly does not understand the youth culture of baby boomers, who take things like indoor plumbing and electricity for granted  Tv becomes more important and he watches Harry get promoted above him.    He continues to drink heavily and that starts leading to disaster.  He dies in the seventies and it is looked upon as the end of an era in advertising.

I agree about Don's enlightenment.  Dr. Faye had him dead to rights in saying he only liked the beginning of things.  In terms of his kids, I doubt he sees them much.  Betty said they were going to stay with her brother and sister-in-law, and I see Don keeping a schedule similar to the one he has now where he sees them every other weekend, if that.     

[Melancholy]

I do have a rosier outlook on Don's future, even though, of course, it's imperfect. He's never going to get back this idealized life that he appeared to have in the early seasons. But then, that life was never his. People generally need the first few Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to be happy- safety, freedom from abuse, enough money and resources to be comfortable. But once those are satisfied, it's on the individual's inner resources to find happiness and meaning. I think Don got better at dealing with external obstacles and finding some stasis in himself in S7. And in preceding seasons although I have some trouble agreeing that S6 was part of that continuum as @Dev F eloquently argued before. 

I also thinks he takes the kids. I really didn't see William as the kind of person who'd take on the time and financial burden of 3 kids because their able bodied, rich father...doesn't feel like it??? Ditto even for Henry. The kids are Don's responsibility and in series, Don was the only adult in contention who said that he wanted them and legally, there's nothing in the way of getting them. Now, I don't think he's great at rearing the kids. I think there's another fantastic series about Don clumsily handling his responsibilities and ricocheting between inattentiveness and over-attentiveness to the point of control and dragging his rated-R mentality into outings that were supposed to be wholesome (like taking Sally and her friends to dinner). However, I do think he gets better and better at it. 

My mindset is partly formed by how I know a number of older men who screwed up their first family or two but then, somehow found a way to have a successful third and ultimate act as a Family Man. This is a unique privilege for men, especially men with money. I don't know if that's quite Don- his issues go deeper and are founded in a profoundly weird backstory. However, my RL anecdotal evidence partly shapes how I see Don's epilogue. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I also thinks he takes the kids. I really didn't see William as the kind of person who'd take on the time and financial burden of 3 kids because their able bodied, rich father...doesn't feel like it??? Ditto even for Henry. The kids are Don's responsibility and in series, Don was the only adult in contention who said that he wanted them and legally, there's nothing in the way of getting them. Now, I don't think he's great at rearing the kids.

My guess had been Don would provide support for the kids, but William and Judy would have them.  He seemed to give in when Betty asked him when was the last time he had even seen them.   

[Melancholy]

7 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My guess had been Don would provide support for the kids, but William and Judy would have them.  He seemed to give in when Betty asked him when was the last time he had even seen them.   

It could be read in several ways but I'd far sooner say Don decided that he didn't want to have an intense phone fight with his weeping cancer patient ex-wife or that he wanted time to think about whether he should take them, in light of Betty's and Sally's resistance rather than he definitively surrendered them to William and Judy. 

I had considered Don just providing for their material upkeep. I still find it comparatively unlikely to Don taking them. Once it wasn't about arguing with Betty and Don was back in NY, I have a hard time imagining Don would be cool with steadily writing checks to William for his kids but ceding the child-rearing to him. And again, even with their material needs taken care of, I don't get why William and Judy would want to take the work of raising the kids from their bio-dad. Especially since William and Judy actually were unusually distant and unfamilial with Betty and her children compared to the average brother/aunt/uncle. 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My guess had been Don would provide support for the kids, but William and Judy would have them.  He seemed to give in when Betty asked him when was the last time he had even seen them.   

I think a big implication with William is that he's not the one who's getting the kids, it's his wife. William would be providing for them in giving them a place to live (Don would no doubt be providing more than enough money for their care) and he would be the father-figure in some ways, but mainly it's about his wife having two more kids at home. They have kids already, iirc, so there's not a big shift there. William would probably find a way to get something for himself out of the deal too. He's set up for children.

Sally's argument sounds the most sound to us in modern terms, I think, because she's stressing that Henry (who is already the person who actively plays the father role to Bobby and has always been the at-home father Gene's had) provides continuity (not just by still being there himself but by also keeping their home in the same place). But Betty's view is pretty practical for the 60s when fathers and mothers were expected to have very different roles. From that pov William is the one with the house already set up to raise children. Though if any of these three guys did argue with Betty over taking the kids (which they all have time to do--she's still alive at the end of the show), I think Henry would definitely be in there making the case for himself on the same grounds Sally was. I don't think either guy would even try to fight Don if he actually did make a genuine demand for the kids--especially William. But that kind of scenario would feel very Megan-redux to me.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I had considered Don just providing for their material upkeep. I still find it comparatively unlikely to Don taking them. Once it wasn't about arguing with Betty and Don was back in NY, I have a hard time imagining Don would be cool with steadily writing checks to William for his kids but ceding the child-rearing to him. And again, even with their material needs taken care of, I don't get why William and Judy would want to take the work of raising the kids from their bio-dad. Especially since William and Judy actually were unusually distant and unfamilial with Betty and her children compared to the average brother/aunt/uncle. 

I don't think it's that William and Judy would necessarily want to take on the Draper kids, it's more that they provide stability (what appears to be a long term marriage, a mother and a father who are present and they are close relatives who presumably would have the kids' interests in mind), and in a situation like this, it's the "right" thing to do.  I think with Don, while he initially fought Betty on this, he realizes that she's right.  He would have to drastically alter his lifestyle to take the kids on full time, and I think he's smart enough to realize he doesn't really want that to happen.

Heck, it's hard to argue you are going to be able to provide stability for your kids when you are in the middle of a cross country road trip you randomly decided to take after essentially walking out of your job.        

Edited September 16, 2017 by txhorns79

[Melancholy]

41 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think it's that William and Judy would necessarily want to take on the Draper kids, it's more that they provide stability (what appears to be a long term marriage, a mother and a father who are present and they are close relatives who presumably would have the kids' interests in mind), and in a situation like this, it's the "right" thing to do.  I think with Don, while he initially fought Betty on this, he realizes that she's right.  He would have to drastically alter his lifestyle to take the kids on full time, and I think he's smart enough to realize he doesn't really want that to happen.

Heck, it's hard to argue you are going to be able to provide stability for your kids when you are in the middle of a cross country road trip you randomly decided to take after essentially walking out of your job.        

Well, I do think questioning whether William/Judy/Henry would want to take the kids is a fair point to bring up when considering the most likely epilogue. Putting aside fitness of each parent, the fact that Don was the only character to indicate that he wanted the children and that William/Judy appeared to barely have a familial relationship with Betty and her kids plays heavily into my suspicions of where the kids went whether that was good for the kids or not. 

But to delve into what's good for the kids, I do rate "love" over "stability" in parenting assuming that the kids' basic materials needs and safety are provided for. I'd rather the Draper kids end up in a house house where the parent loves them and wants them there and has a universally recognized obligation to them instead of taking them on out of some un-needed "charity", even if the parent works incessantly and hardly makes an established dinner time and can be found drunkenly sprawled on the couch and has one night stands when the kids are there. That's hardly ideal. It's not good. But it feels better for me than the kids ending up in a household where the parents deeply resent their presence, constantly make it clear that they're a huge burden and being taken on out of charity, and where the father uses such harsh corporal punishment but remains such an ineffective father that his adult relatives disapprovingly comment on it. And the whole experiences scars and cuts even more because their bio-dad is still alive and out there. Even though the kids would never see a discarded panty or line of whiskey bottles. I get the impression that this would be their life in a William/Judy house. Don can hire a nanny to make sure that the kids' material needs and safety are provided for- even though I think that he can provide that on his own devices but I recognize it hasn't been tested. I trust that Sally will be a very involved stabilizing presence, regardless of the outcome. There are no perfect outcomes but I still feel like Don is the best choice for the kids and him. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

But to delve into what's good for the kids, I do rate "love" over "stability" in parenting assuming that the kids' basic materials needs and safety are provided for. I'd rather the Draper kids end up in a house house where the parent loves them and wants them there and has a universally recognized obligation to them instead of taking them on out of some un-needed "charity", even if the parent works incessantly and hardly makes an established dinner time and can be found drunkenly sprawled on the couch and has one night stands when the kids are there.

But are you talking about Henry or just William? Because I think even in 1970 someone being a stepparent and being the kids' father since birth would be recognized as a real connection and obligation and not charity. I don't think the kids would feel any more like unwanted charity cases with him than they would with Don. He's the everyday guy in their lives.

[Constant Viewer]

Was it ever addressed why Henry would not take care of the kids after Betty died? I would think he would be the natural choice and appeared to care for them. I was surprised she would want her brother to take them in since she disapproved of his children's behavior.

[sistermagpie]

58 minutes ago, Constant Viewer said:

Was it ever addressed why Henry would not take care of the kids after Betty died? I would think he would be the natural choice and appeared to care for them. I was surprised she would want her brother to take them in since she disapproved of his children's behavior.

According to Sally it was just that he had a wife so the kids would have a mother figure.

[Domestic Assassin]

According to Betty (in her phone call with Don), the children needed a mother.    

[TigerLynx]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:28 PM, txhorns79 said:

Heck, it's hard to argue you are going to be able to provide stability for your kids when you are in the middle of a cross country road trip you randomly decided to take after essentially walking out of your job.        

When McCann told Roger Don had gone AWOL, and Roger replied with, "He does that some times," I also expected Roger to follow up with, "He usually manages to wander around and then find his way back home."  Don's way of doing things might have worked when he was at Sterling Cooper, and coming up with the perfect ad for the client at the last moment, but that does not provide the kind of stability children need.

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 8:38 AM, Moose Andsquirrel said:

According to Betty (in her phone call with Don), the children needed a mother.    

Even today more pressure is put on women to be the nurturer and raise the children.  Men were supposed to bring in the money to pay the bills.  It's not necessarily true or fair, plenty of fathers are good hands on parents, but it's still a stereotype that exists.

[txhorns79]

Quote

When McCann told Roger Don had gone AWOL, and Roger replied with, "He does that some times," I also expected Roger to follow up with, "He usually manages to wander around and then find his way back home."  Don's way of doing things might have worked when he was at Sterling Cooper, and coming up with the perfect ad for the client at the last moment, but that does not provide the kind of stability children need.

That's my main issue.  Don is not a bad person, and he appears to love his children, but he's shown time and again that his main priority is himself.  Don't forget this is the same guy who was ready to run away forever with Rachel, and essentially the only reason that didn't happen was because she was absolutely horrified with his behavior and broke things off. 

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

That's my main issue.  Don is not a bad person, and he appears to love his children, but he's shown time and again that his main priority is himself.  Don't forget this is the same guy who was ready to run away forever with Rachel, and essentially the only reason that didn't happen was because she was absolutely horrified with his behavior and broke things off. 

I thought that was definitely supposed to be the idea behind Betty and Sally's opinion. The show ends with three situations where there's some change in the children's situations (the Draper kids, Kevin and Tammy) and it seems like the idea in all of them is the mother is acknowledging what the guy's doing consistently already for some time. (Sally isn't anybody's mother and isn't being seen that way, but they do establish that by season 6 she's now relied on as a babysitter in NY.)

[TigerLynx]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

That's my main issue.  Don is not a bad person, and he appears to love his children, but he's shown time and again that his main priority is himself.  Don't forget this is the same guy who was ready to run away forever with Rachel, and essentially the only reason that didn't happen was because she was absolutely horrified with his behavior and broke things off. 

And this wasn't the last time Don considered doing that either.  That's why I can see some of the other characters moving forward, while Don continues a variation of the same old same old.  Don told Peggy when she gave her baby up for adoption that she would move on, and someday it would be like it never happened, which was not true.  When Don finally got around to admitting to Betty that she was right about him cheating on her with Bobbie Barrett, he didn't admit to all of the other cheating, and he didn't stop cheating.  When Don had problems with Megan, he decided they should move to California because they were happy there.  Well duh.  They were on vacation staying at a luxurious hotel with lots of activities, and they were there for maybe a week or two.  It's easy to be happy on vacation which is something Betty pointed out to Don about their trip to Italy.  Betty and Henry had some rough patches, but they worked through them.

Peggy/Stan, Roger/Marie, and Pete/Trudy may not last, but they are at least trying to build the foundation of their relationship on reality.  Peggy once told Freddie she wanted to get married, but she always ended up putting work first, and that is something Stan knows about Peggy.  It would have been very easy for Pete and Trudy to fall into constantly blaming each other for what went wrong in their marriage with the you did this well you did this that happens so often.  However, they decided to move forward instead.  Pete/Trudy had problems, but at one point they were both very happy when they were married, and had Tammy, and it seemed they wanted to get back to that.  Whatever else, Roger and Marie have no illusions about each other, and know what they are getting into.

[Melancholy]

6 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Peggy/Stan, Roger/Marie, and Pete/Trudy may not last, but they are at least trying to build the foundation of their relationship on reality.  Peggy once told Freddie she wanted to get married, but she always ended up putting work first, and that is something Stan knows about Peggy.  It would have been very easy for Pete and Trudy to fall into constantly blaming each other for what went wrong in their marriage with the you did this well you did this that happens so often.  However, they decided to move forward instead.  Pete/Trudy had problems, but at one point they were both very happy when they were married, and had Tammy, and it seemed they wanted to get back to that.  Whatever else, Roger and Marie have no illusions about each other, and know what they are getting into.

You know, I think I'm less cynical about Don's capacity to be a better father and deal with his issues than Roger/Marie and Peggy/Stan. I don't think Roger and Marie had "no illusions about each other." Marie may have been nervous about it but she was operating on an assumption that she would maintain financial security and in fact, increase her fortunes, upon leaving Emile's house for Roger. Roger was assuring Marie that she had nothing to worry about on that front as he tried to stop the French verbal attack. I'm not sure that she would have left Emile where she knew she was guaranteed some middle class life if she heard Roger, earlier in S7B, boasting about how he tried to leave Jane with as little as possible and that should be the MO when dealing with exes. It takes more reality to even have a solid foundation in a relationship than "Stan knows Peggy is a workaholic." I think Duck and Ted got that too from the get go- and those are the ugliest relationships that she had. Stan sound incredibly like someone embarking on a fantasy when he up and says:

Because every time I'm face to face with you, I want to strangle you. And then I miss you when I go away. And I miss you and I call you on the phone and I get the person I want to talk to. 

Which is exactly Peggy/Stan. They can't spend any prolonged period of time together without fractiously fighting. Peggy can't even entertain two great job offers without insulting Stan as a worthless failure. I don't think that fares well for their ability to handle any personal stress as a couple instead of coworkers. At least Peggy/Abe started from a fonder place so they had positive, good feelings that were later tested by stresses like renovating a brownstone and Abe's low-paying lefty dangerous job. 

I can't buy into this common dicta that assumes that EVERYONE ELSE is capable of growth and a happy ending except for Don. Aside from maybe Pete, I feel like Don apologized the most and did the most redemptive things in the last two seasons. I know that I have the unpopular opinion. I think it's because other people (except for Joan) were matched up and there's a glow to starting off a romance. And even Joan wasn't matched up romantically but there's a glow to starting a business. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Melancholy

[pieinmyeye]

Can someone please tell me which episode involved the Chip 'n Dip. I've looked and looked, but no luck. Thanks!

[ivygirl]

1 minute ago, pieinmyeye said:

Can someone please tell me which episode involved the Chip 'n Dip. I've looked and looked, but no luck. Thanks!

Red in the Face

[pieinmyeye]

4 minutes ago, ivygirl said:

Red in the Face

Thank you!!

[ivygirl]

6 minutes ago, pieinmyeye said:

Thank you!!

You're welcome. Here is an interesting blog post by someone who thought they'd found a similar piece!

I love mid-century California pottery so it was interesting to learn about the artist.

[DeccaMitford]

Quote

Which is exactly Peggy/Stan. They can't spend any prolonged period of time together without fractiously fighting. Peggy can't even entertain two great job offers without insulting Stan as a worthless failure. I don't think that fares well for their ability to handle any personal stress as a couple instead of coworkers. At least Peggy/Abe started from a fonder place so they had positive, good feelings that were later tested by stresses like renovating a brownstone and Abe's low-paying lefty dangerous job.

I go back and forth on Peggy and Stan a lot. I was against it for most of the show's run, and felt happily won over by the end, but when I re-watch the series, I'm against it again. I still buy that they would care enough about each other to date, but I'm not sure it would last for exactly the reasons you give.

I get the sense when listening to commentary tracks that Matthew Weiner has the view that real intimacy necessarily includes baring all of your ugliest feelings to another person, and being accepted anyway. I think that's true in a sense, but the portrayals of that on Mad Men didn't always work 100%. I'm thinking of a moment when Betty shouts at Henry, and Weiner (on the commentary track) spoke of it as an example of how much stronger Betty's marriage to Henry was, as she never got that angry around Don until the very end of their relationship. At another point he spoke of Don chasing Megan around the apartment in Far Away Places, calling it a demonstration of "the passion of a new relationship," while to me it just seemed a demonstration of a relationship that was doomed.

So Peggy and Stan - I think we're meant to see that Peggy feels close enough to Stan that she can truly be herself with him, and the true Peggy is someone with a lot of hard edges, and Stan is someone who is mellower in general but happy to respond in-kind, and even escalate. They fight and then they're ok again. It's just that in practice it can sometimes look less like two very close people speaking their minds, confident that their least attractive thoughts will be forgiven, and more like people who just don't like each other all the time. At its worst it looks like straight up verbal abuse.

I honestly thought the relationship with Ted had potential, though of course the circumstances made it a much stupider idea. At least that relationship seemed based on a simple enjoyment of each other's company, which tends to be at least as important for lasting relationships as "really" knowing someone in a high romantic fashion.

[qtpye]

41 minutes ago, DeccaMitford said:

I go back and forth on Peggy and Stan a lot. I was against it for most of the show's run, and felt happily won over by the end, but when I re-watch the series, I'm against it again. I still buy that they would care enough about each other to date, but I'm not sure it would last for exactly the reasons you give.

I get the sense when listening to commentary tracks that Matthew Weiner has the view that real intimacy necessarily includes baring all of your ugliest feelings to another person, and being accepted anyway. I think that's true in a sense, but the portrayals of that on Mad Men didn't always work 100%. I'm thinking of a moment when Betty shouts at Henry, and Weiner (on the commentary track) spoke of it as an example of how much stronger Betty's marriage to Henry was, as she never got that angry around Don until the very end of their relationship. At another point he spoke of Don chasing Megan around the apartment in Far Away Places, calling it a demonstration of "the passion of a new relationship," while to me it just seemed a demonstration of a relationship that was doomed.

So Peggy and Stan - I think we're meant to see that Peggy feels close enough to Stan that she can truly be herself with him, and the true Peggy is someone with a lot of hard edges, and Stan is someone who is mellower in general but happy to respond in-kind, and even escalate. They fight and then they're ok again. It's just that in practice it can sometimes look less like two very close people speaking their minds, confident that their least attractive thoughts will be forgiven, and more like people who just don't like each other all the time. At its worst it looks like straight up verbal abuse.

I honestly thought the relationship with Ted had potential, though of course the circumstances made it a much stupider idea. At least that relationship seemed based on a simple enjoyment of each other's company, which tends to be at least as important for lasting relationships as "really" knowing someone in a high romantic fashion.

Does he have any comments about the time Megan got down on her hands and knees in her granny panties to clean the sunken living room and she kept on saying to Don "You don't deserve this" referring to her body.  I feel like I was suppose to sense their rage and passion as a couple, but it just came off as awkward and weird

I also thought it was interesting that Megan's go to whenever she thought she was losing Don was trying to get him back with sex.  The doomed threesome, the time on her mother's advice, she wore that tiny dress to a client dinner.  Yes, Don loved having a beautiful and sexy wife, but that is not why he married her.

I am thinking about what you said that most sucessful couples enjoy each other's company.  Most of the relationships on this show were doomed because there was no communication, so the people just drift apart.

In doing a rewatch I am struck again how Joan marries an asshole who literaly never takes his wife's feeling into consideration and as always, I wonder why did she marry that guy?

Like Don with Meghan, she only took the superficial stuff into account...he was a handsome young doctor and she was, for her time, a little long in the tooth to be unmarried.  From the beginning (starting with the horrible rape) the man treats her with zero respect.  The ultimate insult is when he is ready to throw away their marriage the minute Joan refuses to go along with his plans. Yes, I know Joan is far from perfect ( she is passing off Roger's child as Greg's) , but it is a brutal story arc.

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, DeccaMitford said:

I get the sense when listening to commentary tracks that Matthew Weiner has the view that real intimacy necessarily includes baring all of your ugliest feelings to another person, and being accepted anyway. I think that's true in a sense, but the portrayals of that on Mad Men didn't always work 100%.

I agree with this.  It seems Weiner and the writers concentrated more on showing the ugly side of relationships.  There were some nice moments, but not nearly as many as there were bad ones.  I have no doubt Don will have many more relationships and marriages.  He is an attractive (although I call BS on Don and Roger looking as good as they do with as much as they have drank for years) wealthy man who can be charming and nice when he wants to.  However, when it comes to his children, Don has been fine with being a part-time parent.  Even when Don was first married to Megan, and they were supposedly oh so happy, Don expected Megan to take on the majority of the care for his children.  In his words, Megan was better with them than he was.  So I can easily see Don falling into letting Henry or Betty's brother and his wife have the children full time while he sees them from time to time, and continues to disappear.

Edited September 19, 2017 by TigerLynx

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I agree with this.  It seems Weiner and the writers concentrated more on showing the ugly side of relationships.  There were some nice moments, but not nearly as many as there were bad ones.  I have no doubt Don will have many more relationships and marriages.  He is an attractive (although I call BS on Don and Roger looking as good as they do with as much as they have drank for years) wealthy man who can be charming and nice when he wants to.  However, when it comes to his children, Don has been fine with being a part-time parent.  Even when Don was first married to Megan, and they were supposedly oh so happy, Don expected Megan to take on the majority of the care for his children.  In his words, Megan was better with them than he was.  So I can easily see Don falling into letting Henry or Betty's brother and his wife have the children full time while he sees them from time to time, and continues to disappear.

Isn't it crazy that they purposely aged Pete, but Roger and Don stayed as handsome as ever?  I wish I could have four martini lunches and a pack a day habit, and look that good.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

In doing a rewatch I am struck again how Joan marries an asshole who literaly never takes his wife's feeling into consideration and as always, I wonder why did she marry that guy?

 

I think we have the answer to this one: Joan was over 30 and had been taught she'd be an Old Maid if she didn't marry immediately and Greg, on paper, was a good catch because he was a doctor. He was just the best she had at that moment. And she sadly thought she could work with him.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Isn't it crazy that they purposely aged Pete, but Roger and Don stayed as handsome as ever?  I wish I could have four martini lunches and a pack a day habit, and look that good.

Yes, I always thought Pete was like the portrait and Don was Dorian Gray. 

Re: MW on relationships, yes, it's always weird hearing some of his comments on them. Though what helps me with it is I think a lot of time he's speaking as if he's right there in the moment with the characters themselves. Like I'm sure that Don and Megan in that moment think this is the "passion of a new relationship" even if to me it seems nuts. Luckily in the end the relationships at least often play out in ways that don't back up that in-the-moment reading. Also I remember in that scene he said that somebody actually said that line about how "every time we fight it cheapens this" or whatever she says--like maybe his wife. Which was weird because to me that line always sounded like another chime of doom. To me it seems like you should be able to fight in a way that doesn't seem to make the relationship less.

Speaking of weird MW comments on relationships, I was watching the ep where Pete finds out about his mom and Manolo and his mom tells him he's just a sour little man and was always unloveable. In the commentary MW says that Manolo/Don was one of the things that inspires Bob to make a pass at Pete, and in talking later he and the other person on the commentary seem to agree that it's really none of Pete's business who Dot's sleeping with.

I thought this was completely bizarre. Manolo's a young gay (could be bi, I guess) man hired to care for a racist, snobbish seemingly-rich old lady suffering from progressive dementia. . Why would I ever view this as any romance at all, much less a good one? And of course it's Pete's business! If you hire someone to care for an elderly relative who's mentally impaired and you walk in on them having sex with them...that's your business. It's also sexual misconduct, even if Dot is into it because she believes the guy's in love with her! 

But then, I guess this is another example of things playing out in a "it's what it looks like way," since Manolo shortly runs off with Dot, marries her and either kills her or causes her death through his reckless endangerment of her. And Pete is not wrong to blame Bob, as well, for this.

[Melancholy]

4 hours ago, DeccaMitford said:

I go back and forth on Peggy and Stan a lot. I was against it for most of the show's run, and felt happily won over by the end, but when I re-watch the series, I'm against it again. I still buy that they would care enough about each other to date, but I'm not sure it would last for exactly the reasons you give.

I get the sense when listening to commentary tracks that Matthew Weiner has the view that real intimacy necessarily includes baring all of your ugliest feelings to another person, and being accepted anyway. I think that's true in a sense, but the portrayals of that on Mad Men didn't always work 100%. I'm thinking of a moment when Betty shouts at Henry, and Weiner (on the commentary track) spoke of it as an example of how much stronger Betty's marriage to Henry was, as she never got that angry around Don until the very end of their relationship. At another point he spoke of Don chasing Megan around the apartment in Far Away Places, calling it a demonstration of "the passion of a new relationship," while to me it just seemed a demonstration of a relationship that was doomed.

So Peggy and Stan - I think we're meant to see that Peggy feels close enough to Stan that she can truly be herself with him, and the true Peggy is someone with a lot of hard edges, and Stan is someone who is mellower in general but happy to respond in-kind, and even escalate. They fight and then they're ok again. It's just that in practice it can sometimes look less like two very close people speaking their minds, confident that their least attractive thoughts will be forgiven, and more like people who just don't like each other all the time. At its worst it looks like straight up verbal abuse.

I honestly thought the relationship with Ted had potential, though of course the circumstances made it a much stupider idea. At least that relationship seemed based on a simple enjoyment of each other's company, which tends to be at least as important for lasting relationships as "really" knowing someone in a high romantic fashion.

I agree with all of this. Peggy/Ted ended up being a train wreck because it was guided by precisely the inappropriate aspects- the office romance and infidelity from their irritation with their partners. And those factors and the short length of the romance meant it was ultimately shallow. But I could see a single Peggy and single Ted meeting outside of the boss/employee relationship and really working out. They did enjoy each other's company and they have a lot of common ground. But even more particular, Peggy really respected Ted. Ted has advertising talent and business sense but also a generally respectable containment of his emotions and issues that Peggy really finds strong and pleasant to be around and aspirational. Which I completely get and agree with. And matters to Peggy A LOT because Peggy was tired of dealing with emotionally needy, scattered, messy men and Peggy isn't really the kind of woman who gets a charge out of caretaking or long mutual psychological exploration  

Peggy/Stan works on an adversarial level when Peggy displays contempt for his piggish, lazy work practices or on a charitable, friendship level when Peggy has to tell Stan to deal with his emotions in another way besides getting high and hitting on everything that moves (only to give up when he sees Stan having sex with Gleason's just orphaned girl). But I don't think Peggy had respect for Stan because he flops most of the time his character is brought to the foreground. And that's what Peggy's rant about him being a lazy failure felt like- Peggy has no respect for Stan. 

And Peggy's "Spoken like a failure" didn't ick me out nearly as much as Stan's "Every time, you speak I want to strangle you" as a run up to declaring love. 

I don't quite get MW's off the record comments. His show makes so much sense most of the time and he ruins it by talking. Why direct the Don/Megan fight in Far Away Places to be so terrifying and end on such a distant eerie note if it's supposed to connote passion? Why implicit Mahnolo in Dot's death if this relationship wasn't predatory and none of Pete's business?

[TigerLynx]

I thought it was interesting that Peggy and Joan in a way ended up in the same place.  When Peggy originally started work at Sterling Cooper, she believed she would do the same things the other secretaries did, get married eventually, and have a family.  Instead she becomes a copy writer, leaves to join the new firm Don and Roger are starting, leaves there to work for Ted, ends up back at Sterling Draper when the merger happens, and then winds up at McGann.  Along the way, Peggy learns to deal with both men and women who don't think she is qualified for or capable of doing the job she has.  Joan excels at her job, but gets married because she's over 30 and the clock is ticking.  Roger calls Joan when they decide to start the new firm because she knows office things the men don't, she becomes a partner in the new firm, when it's sold, she doesn't fit in at McGann, and eventually ends up starting her own business.  Neither of them were thinking of long term career goals when they started out, but they both became successful at work, and were pretty much if something works out with a guy fine, if not, no big loss.

I believe Marie can handle Roger, and if it doesn't work out, Marie will still be okay because she is the strong, confident, secure woman Megan pretended to be, but wasn't.

Edited September 20, 2017 by TigerLynx

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I believe Marie can handle Roger, and if it doesn't work out, Marie will still be okay because she is the strong, confident, secure woman Megan pretended to be, but wasn't.

It was interesting in the commentary where Jessica P asked Julia O if she thought Marie had any frustrated artistic ambitions and she said no, she didn't think so, that Marie was just very practical. So you can see her frustration with Megan. She's unhappy with her husband when we see her and she drinks too much, but she doesn't seem to have the kind of illusions that could shatter like Megan appeared to have. She flat-out says to Roger that she expects to be taken care of if they break up. If she wound up with the same kind of ending Megan got with Don she'd be perfectly fine.

[DeccaMitford]

Quote

And Peggy's "Spoken like a failure" didn't ick me out nearly as much as Stan's "Every time, you speak I want to strangle you" as a run up to declaring love. 

Oh, same. And I don't think anything she said to him was as needlessly nasty as some of what he said to her in season 4 when he was first introduced. I get that he was supposed to have changed (probably with her influence, or something).
 

Quote

I don't quite get MW's off the record comments. His show makes so much sense most of the time and he ruins it by talking. Why direct the Don/Megan fight in Far Away Places to be so terrifying and end on such a distant eerie note if it's supposed to connote passion? Why implicit Mahnolo in Dot's death if this relationship wasn't predatory and none of Pete's business?

Yeah, eventually with him I have to go back to the Author is Dead rule. Sometimes even great writers are wrong about the full implications of what they write. Though, like sistermagpie says, I think he was always careful to talk about the characters as they were in the moment. Though that still doesn't explain everything: I don't think either Don or Megan would describe what happened in Far Away Places as evidence of how crazy they were about each other, even at the time. If anything it would be another low point they would pretend wasn't there.

[TigerLynx]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It was interesting in the commentary where Jessica P asked Julia O if she thought Marie had any frustrated artistic ambitions and she said no, she didn't think so, that Marie was just very practical. So you can see her frustration with Megan. She's unhappy with her husband when we see her and she drinks too much, but she doesn't seem to have the kind of illusions that could shatter like Megan appeared to have. She flat-out says to Roger that she expects to be taken care of if they break up. If she wound up with the same kind of ending Megan got with Don she'd be perfectly fine.

Marie and Betty understood how vulnerable they were financially.  It's one of the many reasons women wanted independence and careers of their own.  Megan tried to pretend she was a modern woman who wanted a career, but she wasn't.  Peggy was the one who put the work in, and became a success at what she enjoyed doing.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Marie and Betty understood how vulnerable they were financially.  It's one of the many reasons women wanted independence and careers of their own.  Megan tried to pretend she was a modern woman who wanted a career, but she wasn't.  Peggy was the one who put the work in, and became a success at what she enjoyed doing.

I always loved the irony that Don's financial support gave Megan more opportunity to go after the career she wanted and it seemed to just made it worse because she had all this money and time and even some connections and things still didn't happen. Her friend Julia seemed to be doing better when she needed to work in order to not have to be a waitress. (We know that Megan started out waiting tables while trying to be an actress and quit.) If there was one line that really hung over Megan through the series was her father's about having skipped to the end and skipped the struggle.