Mad Men - General Discussion

voiceover · August 14, 2017

Made it clear that I cannot care -- much -- for this series after Season 3, but I admit that an all-time, character-revealing, relationship-defining exchange happened in "The Suitcase":

Peggy(finally; explodes with it): "You never say 'Thank you'!"

Don(back atcha): "That's what the money's for!!"

Damn.

August 15, 2017

In the elimination game thread, @Melancholy said a sentence about characters' sins, and it really made me think. One thing that I've noticed from Mad Men writers and even fan reactions is how different characters are portrayed by the writers and viewed by most fans is strange to me. Some characters seem to be allowed constant excuses while others don't.

Don is often cited as an anti-hero, and people don't justify his reactions as much, though he is given leeway for his bad childhood.

The characters I've most often seen as excused or given passes for bad behavior are Joan and Betty.

Betty - at times, a very cold mother. A terrible employer. Has a one-night stand in a bar. Has an emotional affair with Henry Francis. Develops a very strange relationship with a young child. I've seen all of these explained away as "Don was worse" or "Don cheated a lot." Somehow that excuses her cheating on Henry with Don?

Joan - had a longstanding affair with a married man; showed a petty and vindictive streak to the other women in the office; used her sexuality to advance her career and judged those who didn't; literally prostituted herself for money; lied about her son's parentage; cheated on her husband. She's routinely excused as either "She was a product of her times; she had no other way to get ahead" or "Greg was much worse than Joan so he deserved to be cheated on and lied to about his son."

Comparing them to some other characters:

Harry Crane - got a big ego after career success; cheated on his wife. By the end of the show, he was pretty much just a laughingstock that the writers trotted out to mock.

Megan Draper - decided she didn't want to do advertising but wanted to be an actress; is fairly immature. Considered by many to be a villain.

Even Stan, while more minor of a character, wasn't portrayed as a very good person (cheated on his serious girlfriend, his intro to the show where he repeatedly and viciously attacked Peggy's looks) overall, but at the end, he and Peggy were seemingly very happy and very together.

I'm wondering how much of this was the way the characters were written ("knowing" them more so feeling more insight as to their actions), the personalities of the actors, or something else.

film noire · August 15, 2017

56 minutes ago, deaja said:

I'm wondering how much of this was the way the characters were written ("knowing" them more so feeling more insight as to their actions), the personalities of the actors, or something else.

I think great acting and writing often trumps a viewer's sense of morality -- so if Megan had been written well, and played by a great actress, the reactions might have been very different (and if Sally had been a crappy kid actress, I doubt Melancholy would be saving her ass so late in the game :)

That said, I also think there are (very loosely) two different kinds of viewers. Those who care about the morality of what a character is doing (Don cheated, Joan used sex to get a partnership, Betty is a bad mother, etc) versus viewers (like me) who don't care about the morality or likeability of any one character or moment, but whether it makes for compelling drama, presents opportunities for great acting, and creates an almost charismatic quality to the show itself, one that draws you back. It's reel life, so I can throw myself into grappling with psychologically toxic behavior that I'd stay clear of (and condemn) in anyone in real life.

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She's routinely excused as either "She was a product of her times; she had no other way to get ahead" or "Greg was much worse than Joan so he deserved to be cheated on and lied to about his son."

But I'm not sure that's an excuse, so much as a perspective drawn from the "world of the show" -- it's not a sweeping moral validation of one character or another, it's Joan's story, as shown to us, and people reacting to that unique story. If the same story line happened elsewhere (to someone more likeable, like Meredith say) those very same people condemning Joan would be high-fiving Meredith - because Meredith's circumstances speak more to them, as viewers, than Joan's. Less excuse, maybe more "That speaks to me, and I get why she did that."

Edited August 15, 2017 by film noire

sistermagpie · August 15, 2017

1 hour ago, deaja said:

In the elimination game thread, @Melancholy said a sentence about characters' sins, and it really made me think. One thing that I've noticed from Mad Men writers and even fan reactions is how different characters are portrayed by the writers and viewed by most fans is strange to me. Some characters seem to be allowed constant excuses while others don't.

Thinking it over, there's actually not that many times where I really feel like I'm defending a character's bad behavior. It seems like a hard show to try to do that with because the characters routinely do indefensible things. Thinking about *why* somebody does what they do is so central to the show that it seems to really fight against it to try to judge people based on whether what they're doing is good or bad. There are certainly plenty of things I could point to and say that I think the character is doing something bad, it just doesn't usually seem to be the important part of it (unless the person seems to actually be a threat, like Greg raping Joan). Then, of course, there's just the subjective reaction. People very often prefer people who have done things that are objectively worse to characters who haven't done anything that bad but are annoying to them.

The main times I remember myself defending people was when I thought their actions were being mis-characterized, and that was usually more about the situation than the character. For instance, I thought the whole Jaguar/Joan thing was sometimes warped to cast people as villains or victims in ways that just didn't line up with what happened. Or maybe an even better example was the scene when Don fires Lane. Some people thought Don was not helping Lane in that scene and I thought he was. That, to me, is less about Don being good or bad (though I think he's being good in that scene) but an understanding of the situation and the consequences for different actions Don could take.

Melancholy · August 15, 2017

Well, I do think Joan cheating on Greg isn't as bad the other cheating we saw or Betty having an emotional affair with Henry isn't as bad as the other cheating we saw. More to the point, in both cases, the excuses define the action more than the cheating for me. There are mitigating circumstances to actions and I think it's perfectly fair for those mitigating circumstances to be part of the conversation and moral calculus.

I will say that I tend to look more kindly on Mad Men characters who did bad things but also did some very kind, great things. That's partly why I don't like Megan at all and won't even put her in the "lovable asshole" class that defines most of the main characters for me. Even though Megan is like, the only person in the core cast, excluding child!Sally and orchiectomy!Bert, who didn't cheat and/or sleep with a married person. And she didn't belittle subordinates or embezzle/blackmail/steal identity/rape/abuse children. Megan didn't do anything horrible but she also didn't do anything particularly generous or brave or indicative of growth. She didn't have any redeeming softening relationships. It was low-grade crappiness but she was just low-grade crappy as a wife, daughter, sister, and friend to every one of her major friends and just very ordinary as a stepmother.

On that level, I'm fonder of Harry than most. He built EVER SO MUCH credit with me with how he helped Hare Krishna Kinsey and to a lesser extent, how he tried to help Don with the tobacco tip-off and more subtly, how he was a good listener to a bunch of the guys, especially in the early seasons. I feel more love for Kinsey and Harry than Ken Cosgrove who some fans say should be put for sainthood because....Ken was faithful to Cynthia and was generally cordial with most people in the office, especially once they reached enough status that Ken couldn't really belittle them anymore like New Girl/Fat Peggy or Bob Benson at the start of S6 when he was trying to get attention by buying food for Roger's funeral. I find Ken pretty two-faced and like he's an adequate person generally but never really a generous, outstanding person. Frankly outside of his nice relationship with Ginsberg, I feel like Stan is mostly bad. Just any malice is dulled later because he's stoned when saying it/doing it.

I do think a lot of viewers' opinions are shaped by whether a person appears to be conventionally "winning" in some way. Ken, Joan, Stan, Bob Benson really get an undeserved halo because they generally have some dignified success to their story. They face challenges but the challenges mainly come from external wrongs instead of from their own bad choices. Like McCann bullying Joan out of her shares instead of Cutler turning on Joan because Cutler doesn't think her two accounts merit 5 percent of profits in perpetuity and Joan helped Cutler establish a precedent that partnerships are defined by who's costing someone money today instead of the terms of their partnership contract. Meanwhile, Harry isn't doing anything worse than any of these assholes but he's considered The Worst because he comes off like a loser and even worse, a hard-core striver gunner who's still a loser. Don's story particularly interrogates this notion, IMO, where he gets sprinklings of false virtue in the early seasons because he's Winning while he's unfairly blackwashed in the later seasons because he's Losing. Even though he's morally worse in the earlier seasons.

August 16, 2017

Don treated Megan horribly, though. Her mother was cruel to her. I think she deserved a lot better treatment than she got on the show.

ivygirl · August 16, 2017

I think part of the failure with Megan's character was that the show telegraphed how much we were supposed to love her. I just started S4 and it's right there from the beginning--several times over the first few episodes, she's trotted out in the most awkward of ways ("Megan, go [do x]") to call attention to her presence in the scene, in a way that wasn't typical of other secretaries in the pool, so to speak. Then we're told she's a great writer, and told how beautiful she is, and told she's amazing (she snags Don, after all--I mean, not a prize IRL but certainly in the world of the show he's the big game), and told she's a fun, hip young woman, and told she'd be a great actress if only. And then when it's time for the divorce, we know it's because of Don (which hey, yeah, but the divorce with Betty was far more nuanced). Any time a character is written like that, they're bound to be unappealing.

It's especially odd within the context of a show like Mad Men that typically makes no explicit moral pronouncements about ANY character, even Creepy Pete and especially Messy Don. We're respected enough to be allowed our personal reads on the character just by observing them. (IMO It's why we might excuse, overlook, or shrug off our favorite character's flaws while noticing and getting irritated by almost everything our less-favorite characters do.) With Megan, however, we aren't given a choice, so we as viewers (or I as a viewer, mmv) rebel.

Some have felt that Peggy gets a soft/boring edit that allows her the halo of righteousness. I won't deny she received a bit of that (she's not the most terrible, behavior wise, in comparison to many other characters)--but I also think that self righteousness drives part of what she's crafted to make us feel--much like Pete is designed to make us feel icky (imo, lol). It IS her flaw--as opposed to Megan who did annoying things, but we arent supposed to find them annoying. If that makes sense...

Melancholy · August 16, 2017

10 hours ago, deaja said:

Don treated Megan horribly, though. Her mother was cruel to her. I think she deserved a lot better treatment than she got on the show.

Eh. The world and Mad Men are a vale of tears. All in all, I think Megan was treated pretty nicely compared to most Mad Men characters and compared to most people in general in real life. Marie was kind of a mess but she was one of the nicest mothers on the show. Just because Megan is so thin skinned that she can't hear a "I don't think you're making it in this long shot acting career. Learn how to be happy with what you have and stop moping through my trip" doesn't mean Marie was wrong to say it. Don was certainly a bad husband but he wasn't the worst one. People could treat Megan unfairly but she had parents interested in her life and helping with her problems through her adult life, Don gave her one exciting career and helped her substantially get and try for another, there were big stretches of the marriage when Don doted on her and tried to give her everything, friends and bosses went of their way to admire and help her because of her glamour, and she walked away with a million dollars and an apology from Don. All in all, I think Megan was treated nicely by the world. Of the main cast, I think only Roger Sterling exceeded her in luck and good treatment from people generally.

August 16, 2017

Don was great to her at times, but awful at other times. It was very hot and cold. She was this perfect vision to him, and then a few months later, he was cheating on her with the neighbor. He helped her launch her acting career, and then he had her quit her steady job to move to California. They were going to move to California and work on pursuing their dreams except, oh wait. He changed his mind.

I do think in her last episode (where she got the million) she was acting like a petulant child.

sistermagpie · August 16, 2017

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Marie was kind of a mess but she was one of the nicest mothers on the show. Just because Megan is so thin skinned that she can't hear a "I don't think you're making it in this long shot acting career. Learn how to be happy with what you have and stop moping through my trip" doesn't mean Marie was wrong to say it.

It's interesting listening to the commentaries how that view is shared by so many people on the show (and me too). In Codfish ball there's a number of parents who are seen as being kind of cruel, but MW seems to have had the intention of showing that the parents were actually right about what they were saying--Abe *was* asking Peggy to move in because he didn't want to marry her (and would probably marry someone else one day), Emil *was* right that Megan had skipped to the end by marrying Don and would eventually feel like a failure.

And Marie, as harsh as she seems at times, to me seems absolutely right too. (The fact that Megan tells her that she's supposed to be more encouraging suggests that Megan feels entitled to and expects a lot of support.) In the commentaries Jessica Pare asks Julia Ormond if she thinks Marie had artistic aspirations and is bitter about them and JO says no, she really doesn't think so. She's thinks Marie's just more about being practical. I think MW echoes the same idea, saying that to Marie this is simply a "grow up" moment for Megan.

Because I think one of things about that whole arc for Megan is that she only pursues acting on her own for what, a year or less? Having already quit it once because she didn't find success? People say that overnight success usually takes about 10 years. Megan's desperate and asking other people to make her feel better after not that much time at all (and it's not just her going through a dark phase and pulling out of it again, because Don saves her). Pretty much everything everyone says to her is correct. If she doesn't agree, she needs to prove people wrong by finding that within herself.

(Don's lines to her are especially on point. Not just the part about her wanting to be somebody's discovery, not somebody's wife. But his questions of why on earth Megan would beg for a commercial which is everything she *didn't* want about acting--it's advertising, it's not art, it's not film or a play. When Megan says that her friends would kill for that commercial Don says yes, because they need the money. If Megan doesn't need the money and is pursuing acting for the artistry, why does she want this commercial this badly? Sure, as she says, it gives you some exposure, but I don't buy that she's really thinking strategically there.)

2 hours ago, deaja said:

He helped her launch her acting career, and then he had her quit her steady job to move to California. They were going to move to California and work on pursuing their dreams except, oh wait. He changed his mind.

But to be fair, Megan was perfectly happy to move because she already had designs on moving to Hollywood to make it out there. Don wasn't pressuring her to leave the job she loved because she thought she'd be successful in LA. (Also given he totally did launch her career, he's earned a lot of credit there. I think Don's connections probably helped her get the soap job as well, even if he wasn't guaranteeing her a job like the Butler shoe ad.) It wasn't like Joan where she quit her job and then needed the money. Megan was upset that she was losing the attention, not a steady job. If she was telling the truth about why she wanted to be an actress, she would not be aspiring to a steady job on a soap. Her disappointment really came from not being successful in California as she imagined she'd be. It was the same old problem she always had--when she had to look inside for the strength to go on, she didn't have it. Given her position as a rich wife who wanted to pursue acting for art, leaving a soap after a year and moving to LA wasn't much of a derailment.

Megan and her acting career is a continual source of fascination for me (though I found most of the scenes about her soap and those producers uninteresting).

Melancholy · August 16, 2017

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's interesting listening to the commentaries how that view is shared by so many people on the show (and me too). In Codfish ball there's a number of parents who are seen as being kind of cruel, but MW seems to have had the intention of showing that the parents were actually right about what they were saying--Abe *was* asking Peggy to move in because he didn't want to marry her (and would probably marry someone else one day), Emil *was* right that Megan had skipped to the end by marrying Don and would eventually feel like a failure.

Sure. Now, I think Maaaa had Abe's number and she was right that Abe was using Peggy for practice (and money) while he was sowing his wild oats. But Maaa actually *was* too harsh on Peggy. Maaa ended the visit abruptly and publicly rejected Abe and embarrassed Peggy because Maaa disapproved of what they were doing. When Peggy asked if Maaa wants her to be lonely, Maaa essentially said "yes" and that she should resign herself a lonely life instead of encouraging her to try for a man who'll give her everything or to find happiness in being alone. The Calvets weren't this bad. They had big problems with 40-year Don marrying their mid-20s daughter on the spur of the moment but they clearly were working at being polite to Don and nice to Bobby and Sally when they arrived. Yes, I think some of that was because Don had money and Abe didn't. However, I think the Calvets do care more about preserving their daughter's dignity and self-esteem, no matter her choices, than Maaaa (or the Hofstadts) ever did. And the Calvets weren't telling Megan that she doomed herself to obstensibly unhappy circumstances and she should just suck it up so she doesn't "live in sin." They were both giving her advice so that she's happier.

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(Don's lines to her are especially on point. Not just the part about her wanting to be somebody's discovery, not somebody's wife. But his questions of why on earth Megan would beg for a commercial which is everything she *didn't* want about acting--it's advertising, it's not art, it's not film or a play. When Megan says that her friends would kill for that commercial Don says yes, because they need the money. If Megan doesn't need the money and is pursuing acting for the artistry, why does she want this commercial this badly? Sure, as she says, it gives you some exposure, but I don't buy that she's really thinking strategically there.)

With Megan's money and leisure time and the 1960s milieu, she could have pursued Midge-type artistry and acted in community theater productions or open-mike spoken word bars. There are plenty of those to fill up the time of an artist and from a craft perspective, those venues are particularly rewarding to the independent artist. Just, most artists have to do something more commercial to make money to eat. But that wasn't Megan's problem. However, Megan wasn't interested in acting if it wasn't glamorous and potentially seen by enough to confer being a star.

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Another soft-edit thing is that some of the cheating characters never ever have their infidelity found out. Joan and definitely Peggy preserved a lot of dignity because their SOs never found about the cheating so it was never a facet in the relationship-failure and likable wives Mona and Trudy (and to a lesser extent, Nan) never called them out. Peggy would have gone down notches in audience-estimation if Trudy had a Jimmy Barrett "You're garbage" scene calling her out or if Peggy's indiscretions against Mark/Abe were a part of those break-ups instead of how the boyfriend was insufficiently supportive and tuned into her needs. There could be differences in audience-estimation. I know that some fans thought Don got off easy because only Bobbi was a proven mistress to Betty and Megan never got solid evidence that Don was sleeping with someone in particular. I strongly disagreed. I think it was the most effective way to call-out a cheating character and undermine his dignity and standing in story- write a story early on about the first wife flipping out about the infidelity so that it's always a facet in her arguments with him, have the second wife know for a fact that he's a cheater so it's a facet in arguments with her, and once that story has been told with the wives, get to an uglier place by writing a story about it rupturing a relationship with the daughter.

Meanwhile with Joan and Peggy, I thought that was an object-lesson in how writers get to allow their characters to have an exciting love interest story with important-married characters instead of just relegating them to only have sex-scenes with their fuck-boy tertiary Boos and give Peggy a humdinger of a scene of giving a random a hand job in a theater. However, that was the point. The point wasn't infidelity so that issue wasn't broached at all with Joan/Peggy. However, the infidelity component of the story only had importance to Pete and Ted. Even with Joan/Roger, there's a vibe that this was actually a cool affair for Roger to have because Mona is so tertiary and no one roots for Jane and he actually loved Joan and would be with her over many years so she was a more status "wife" than his actual wives. As opposed to Pete and Ted who are more confronted with how they ditched longer-term and more important-to-their-lives Trudy and Nan for ultimately co-worker Peggy. And Ted, ultimately, wasn't close enough to that he'd maintain even a co-worker relationship/friendship after the affair burned out. There was a stronger connection between Pete and Peggy- but it's still challenged as not being nearly as important as Pete's connection to Trudy.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Melancholy

voiceover · August 16, 2017

"The Beautiful Girls" -- one of the strangest gamuts of Sublime to Ridiculous, and back, in series history.

Miss Blankenship's sudden death was sad and horrible. Until it was Eating Raoul-level darkly comic, with Peter, Joan, and Megan dealing with her body, in a dumbshow bit of brilliance that always makes me burst out laughing -- esp with Harry's whining punchline about the afghan.

Then Cooper needs help with the obit. Joan & Roger offer soothing support, which leads to his epiphany about Ida: born in a barn, died on the 37th floor of a high rise; "She was an astronaut!"

Which always makes me burst into tears.

Then the ground opens up, and the show falls down the Megan-hole. I remember posting about this ep in real time at TWoP, and someone predicted her elevation to Mrs Draperdom, and I know I'm not the only one who stammered & scoffed & rolled my eyes to the moon at such a ridiculous show-killing plot twist idea.

Poop.

small potatoes · August 17, 2017

23 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I think part of the failure with Megan's character was that the show telegraphed how much we were supposed to love her.

I think you are wrong about this, you and the vast majority of other fans and posters. The show didn't telegraph how much we were supposed to love her. The examples you cited were calling attention to her in the sense of foreshadowing that she might become important but not that we were meant to like her. Then later, when she was made to look good, it was only through Don's eyes or from the perspective of employees who had to go with the flow.

In one of her early appearances, she accidentally yanked the projector plug out of the socket. It was the third time a Mad Man character had pulled a plug: the first was when Greg ripped the vacuum cleaner plug out of the wall; the second when Duck turned off the TV so that Peggy wouldn't be distracted by the JFK assassination and ruin their nooner. When Megan did it, accidentally, I took it as a way of telling the audience to look out for her as a toxic influence, although not necessarily in a deliberately mean way.

When Don announced their engagement, Peggy was dumbfounded, Joan was skeptical, and Roger more or less said welcome to the club of old guys who marry vapid arm candy after leaving their equally attractive and far more deserving first wives.

Megan was so tone deaf she gave Don Revolver and told him to play Tomorrow Never Knows first. It's the least accessible song on the album and turned him off from listening to the rest. If Don had played Side One from the beginning he would have heard Taxman and called Lane into his office, first thing in the morning, loaned Lane enough to take care of his problems, and prevented a tragedy.

So I say, wrong, wrong, wrong. We were not supposed to love Megan. We were supposed to resent her for taking time away from characters we liked better.

voiceover · August 17, 2017

51 minutes ago, small potatoes said:

So I say, wrong, wrong, wrong. We were not supposed to love Megan. We were supposed to resent her for taking time away from characters we liked better.

Lots of hilarious stuff here. Especially since MW's profound success at the latter -- if that was in fact his intent -- meant his goal was to drive away his audience.

Hey, it certainly worked on me! I didn't realize he wanted me to resent her so much that I'd stop watching.

Clever boy.

film noire · August 17, 2017

2 hours ago, small potatoes said:

If Don had played Side One from the beginning he would have heard Taxman and called Lane into his office, first thing in the morning, loaned Lane enough to take care of his problems, and prevented a tragedy.

LOL

Edited August 17, 2017 by film noire

ivygirl · August 17, 2017

1 hour ago, small potatoes said:

I think you are wrong about this, you and the vast majority of other fans and posters. The show didn't telegraph how much we were supposed to love her. The examples you cited were calling attention to her in the sense of foreshadowing that she might become important but not that we were meant to like her. Then later, when she was made to look good, it was only through Don's eyes or from the perspective of employees who had to go with the flow.

In one of her early appearances, she accidentally yanked the projector plug out of the socket. It was the third time a Mad Man character had pulled a plug: the first was when Greg ripped the vacuum cleaner plug out of the wall; the second when Duck turned off the TV so that Peggy wouldn't be distracted by the JFK assassination and ruin their nooner. When Megan did it, accidentally, I took it as a way of telling the audience to look out for her as a toxic influence, although not necessarily in a deliberately mean way.

I just watched that scene about an hour ago and I didn't see that in there... just that she was a little nervous and/or klutzy in the situation (e.g. She hates conflict or trouble), and it gave Stan a chance/excuse to check out her rear end.

Furthermore in every interview I'd read, Weiner was overall positive about Megan; I never read anything that led me to believe we were supposed to resent her.

So obviously our perspectives are different; but based on what I watched and have read, I personally can't see Megan as a character deliberately designed to make us resent her.

small potatoes · August 17, 2017

51 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Especially since MW's profound success at the latter -- if that was in fact his intent -- meant his goal was to drive away his audience.

If you stopped watching, that's your problem.

If Matthew Weiner wanted to give us a character we liked, he could have easily done so. He didn't. Instead he gave us a character the audience loved to hate. Go check out the Megan thread. There are thousands of complaints about Megan. Far more than any other character generated.

small potatoes · August 17, 2017

3 minutes ago, ivygirl said:

Furthermore in every interview I'd read, Weiner was overall positive about Megan; I never read anything that led me to believe we were supposed to resent her.

So obviously our perspectives are different; but based on what I watched and have read, I personally can't see Megan as a character deliberately designed to make us resent her.

Weiner often said misleading things about the show. He didn't spell out his intentions with Megan because that would have spoiled us, something he carefully avoided. That would have taken all the fun out of hating her. So he praised Megan, and praised Jessica Pare to the skies, and the audience got more and more annoyed. It worked like a charm.

Meanwhile, we are given clues, like Michael Ginsberg complaining about how she borrowed lunch money from him and never paid it back. She's married to Don Draper, wearing an expensive new outfit every day, and borrowing money from Ginsberg. The woman had no shame.

voiceover · August 17, 2017

46 minutes ago, small potatoes said:

If you stopped watching, that's your problem.

Ouch. Seems like the fact that I stopped watching, was no problem at all for me. Spared me writing, or reading, about a billion think pieces on this character.

I can live with that.

small potatoes · August 17, 2017

59 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Ouch.

I did not intend to cause pain. Instead, I should have said "that's up to you." I'd edit my post but you've already quoted me so it wouldn't do any good.

Melancholy · August 17, 2017

I agree with @small potatoes that I don't think we were supposed to love Megan from the word go. In her limited S4 appearances, we saw her flip-flop on The Letter right after another in one conversation. That's a bright sign for inauthenticity. The show was very much on Allison's side and little tertiary character Allison had a 3-ep arc of emotionally breaking down because Don froze her out after the one night stand. It's drastically out of the tenor of that arc for us to laugh along with Megan's "I'm not going to run crying out of here tomorrow." In the middle of the tobacco crises and only a few hours after Don and Faye had a fight but didn't break up, I have to think most viewers thought Don should have stuck to his first instinct of declining sex because "I can't afford to make any mistakes now." Don's a grown ass man and he is responsible for his own choices. Still, Megan is responsible for hers and I think it's bad form to insist again on sex with your boss after your boss already declined and it's apparent based on everything going on why workplace sex could be even more fraught than normal. Since Megan isn't a slave to passion who has little self control when turned on, Megan's need to have sex right then felt incredibly calculated to me. I'm with Gail Holloway. "Don't tell me that girl's not conniving." It's also not only phony but so weird for Megan to justify the free trip to California with "I have a good friend out there who I want to visit" but then when Don asked how her evening with her friend went for Megan to respond "She's not my friend" and then go into how her feelings about this girl are all resentments and hurt feelings. The friend had designs on sleeping with her married but unfaithful father, she said Megan wasn't pretty enough to be an actress- not a person you'd want to travel across the country to see even if the trip was paid for unless she worked as an excuse for Megan's real reason to go on the trip to spend time with Don but be casual about it

I also liked @sistermagpie point above that she is telling an impossiblity that her skin care regimen just consists of water.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Melancholy

sistermagpie · August 17, 2017

Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to completely love Megan. Though, of course, I don't think we're supposed to resent her for taking time away from other characters either. In commentaries I realize I missed a lot of scenes when I was supposed to be impressed with Megan and wasn't--mostly any time she stood up to Don and he had to listen to her because he was so into her. They keep saying "Betty would never have done that." And every time they do I think about Betty confronting him about his cheating with Bobbi. Seems like Megan's mostly getting praise for being born late enough that she doesn't think women are supposed to coddle men all the time.

One thing I never understood, though, is the idea that Megan seems good because we see her through Don's eyes. It's really hard to see someone through another character's eyes on TV. The camera is objective. Don's not hallucinating Megan winning the Heinz ad or a client telling Megan in private that she's more fabulous than they imagined or Joyce dropping by the office just to stare at Megan. Megan has to be objectively great in order for her walking away from advertising to be a real rejection. (And her correctly pointing to Tomorrow Never Knows as the most exciting song on Revolver, imo, shows her to have good taste and understanding in music--or at least that she's hip and is friends with people who are. The point of Don listening to the album is to understand the things young people like, not to find some way to make Dad like the Beatles. He's trying to appeal to the youth market, not the crowd that unironically only likes it when the Beatles imitate old-fashioned singers.

That said, there are plenty of times when Megan isn't being excellent and when other characters don't think she's great either. Peggy might be honest when she says that Megan's just one of those girls who can do everything, but Joan nails her just as clearly when she says she's going to be a failing actress with a rich husband. Of the two of them I think Joan's description is the one we see play out. Even Don winds up criticizing Megan more sharply than she criticizes him, imo. Most of her swipes at him are more obvious and general.

Though the show does do a pretty good job of making Megan's highest moments all coincide with Don's infatuation period so it does almost seem like his pov is controlling her existence.

Melancholy · August 17, 2017

That lunch money is subtle but egregious. Megan owed Ginsberg $15. That's $117 today. I think it's entirely normal to focus how a coworker owes that much when she's quitting. It's egregious that Megan would let such a debt accumulate because that's a lot of 1965 lunches. As one of the most honest characters (to a fault), I can't believe Ginsberg inflated that number. Peggy acted like Ginsberg was ridiculous but she angrily went to bad mood stressed Joan complaining about the vending machine stealing a quarter or less money stolen from her purse on Election Day. Ginsberg is easily dismissed by his coworkers because his mental illness means he puts things oddly and because Jews are soft targets to be dismissed/insulted when they assert their financial rights and needs because of the stereotype of the greedy Jew. It's a cousin of how Danny Seigel may be socially awkward and weak but he was absolutely right to call Harry out for getting free fight tickets in his role at the agency and then, to turn around and charge his coworkers for the tickets. But Harry "won" that fight by saying Danny was such a Jew. I think Matt Weiner knows what he's doing with these anti Semetic dog whistle scenes

I agree that Megan was supposed to be be gorgeous and show a lot of promise in advertising. Those good qualities make sense. Jessica Pare is a lovely woman. I didn't have any "How dare Megan's looks be glorified when there's prettier women on this show?" outrage. Based on her specific look and fashion and glamorous role as an aspiring actress or Don's second wife, she had qualities to be an It Girl for her years on the show. That Heinz on the Moon idea was good. I do think they had the hardest time selling Megan as such an endearing, charming personality that Mrs. Heinz would start going into deep conversations about how she misjudged her. However, I think a bunch of people glorify Megan as a friend but there's an agenda to that friendship. Sylvia trying to be closer to Don. Arlene and Mel trying to bed her and Don and taking an interest in the advertising which pays for the soap. IMO, Peggy befriending Megan to show everyone that she's not upset with this marriage for catty or jealous reasons but instead for principled ones and trying to insert herself into Don/Megan so that doesn't become the office dynamic duo with no space for Peggy.

sistermagpie · August 17, 2017

It's kind of funny that Megan starts out being so hurt at the people at the office being cynical when her acting friendships ultimately actually seem worse. And it's not like we see people being mean to Megan and that's what's bad about it. She's the worst of all of them. We see her stealing her friend's idea to use Don to get the Butler Shoe ad, being contemptuous enough of the Dark Shadows script to make her friend feel bad (and we know that's not really a question of quality since she's later happy to talk about her own soap like it's Shakespeare) and make a catty remarks about that same friend after she loses her job. (One can, of course, read even darker things about her relationships in California, probably.)

By contrast the people at SCDP are actually far less catty and backstabby. They do it sometimes, of course, but there's not this constant display of personal friendship while they cut each other down. It seems like a more straightforward understanding that they all have big asshole potential. She doesn't seem to wind up with any "I know you're a jerk sometimes but I love you anyway" moments.

small potatoes · August 17, 2017

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I agree with @small potatoes that I don't think we were supposed to love Megan from the word go. In her limited S4 appearances, we saw her flip-flop on The Letter right after another in one conversation. That's a bright sign for inauthenticity.

Nice. I forgot all about that one.

Melancholy · August 17, 2017

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's kind of funny that Megan starts out being so hurt at the people at the office being cynical when her acting friendships ultimately actually seem worse. And it's not like we see people being mean to Megan and that's what's bad about it. She's the worst of all of them. We see her stealing her friend's idea to use Don to get the Butler Shoe ad, being contemptuous enough of the Dark Shadows script to make her friend feel bad (and we know that's not really a question of quality since she's later happy to talk about her own soap like it's Shakespeare) and make a catty remarks about that same friend after she loses her job. (One can, of course, read even darker things about her relationships in California, probably.)

Well, yes. I think it was incredibly careless and callous to use Amy to complete the "girl on girl" part of action to get Don's attention. I also think it was crappy of her to fire her agent for telling Don that Megan stalked a director and tearfully yelled at him for not giving her a part. I thought Allan the Agent was well within his rights to tell his client's husband that in the hopes that the husband can stop his wife from such destructive and self destructive behavior. And that was definitely Allan's motive. He wasn't Dr. Wayne, acting as a paid spy for the husband and violating doctor/patient confidentiality and only giving the husband any diagnoses because his purpose was not to treat the wife. Allan ostensibly works on commission for any job Megan gets. He was relaying a scene that Megan chose to make public. And he was doing it in the context of asking whether Don could help Megan feel better.

sistermagpie · August 17, 2017

5 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

And that was definitely Allan's motive. He wasn't Dr. Wayne, acting as a paid spy for the husband and violating doctor/patient confidentiality and only giving the husband any diagnoses because his purpose was not to treat the wife. Allan ostensibly works on commission for any job Megan gets. He was relaying a scene that Megan chose to make public. And he was doing it in the context of asking whether Don could help Megan feel better.

Yes, Allan's motivation in that situation was exactly the same as Megan's--he wanted her to get work. That's why he called Don, because Megan was destroying her own reputation and he thought maybe having her husband in California so she had someone to personally support her would give her more confidence. I think he would have done the same thing if Megan was a man. There was more to it than just "come control your wife." Especially since Allan had presumably said this to Megan herself.

It did seem like Amy had a crush on Megan and maybe that helped her confidence. It would make sense given we saw Joyce as proof that Megan did tend to attract these kinds of followers, and then we saw that Megan got confidence from Don's attraction to her.

Then, of course, there's Megan's getting rid of Stephanie because she's threatened by Don getting an eyeful of her dewey pregnant vulnerable homeless self. Even if one thinks that threat was real that's not a woman acting out of sunny goodwill.

Luckylyn · August 18, 2017

My view of Megan is that she's someone who normally gets what she wants easily. So when a situation comes where she struggles she doesn't have a coping mechanism for it. I also think Marie had Megan pegged when she said that Megan had the artistic temperament but not necessarily the talent. I think acting was the first thing she ever went after that required a lot more patience and perseverance than she was prepared for.

When it comes to her marriage to Don, Megan had a clearer idea of what she was marrying into than Betty did. Having worked for Don, Megan would have heard the rumors of his cheating history. She also instigated a sexual relationship with Don while she knew he was in a relationship with Faye. She's the last person who should have been surprised that he would cheat on her too. I think she had this fantasy of who Don could be with her and she just couldn't look at the reality of who he was until it was too late. Even though she knew Don's history, she thought for her he would be different which was naive or maybe it was arrogance that she'd be the one he'd be faithful to.

Don married his idea of Megan and had no clue at all who she was. He was trying to avoid having to do the hard work of looking at himself and changing. Faye challenged Don to try to face his issues, but Don couldn't handle that. He started some introspection but then settled on Megan as some sort of short cut to happiness. He decided to put it on Megan's shoulders to save him. Then, when Megan turns out to be a human being with flaws and not the perfect savior he was looking for he unfairly resents her for it. I think that's the same thing he did to Betty when he married her. I really despised it when he told Pete that if Megan had been his first wife he would not have cheated as if his issues being faithful were somehow Betty's fault. That's part of the reason I think Betty had that one night stand with Don after marrying Henry. In a way, it reassured her that Don would cheat on anyone and that it wasn't just her. That was a demon she needed to put to rest to really move on. I don't think that was fair to Henry who was faithful, but I can understand Betty wanting to prove something to herself.

sistermagpie · August 18, 2017

13 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Even though she knew Don's history, she thought for her he would be different which was naive or maybe it was arrogance that she'd be the one he'd be faithful to.

Even worse for Megan was she gave him permission to cheat--there's a moment in S6 where she basically says that if he sleeps with someone it's okay. She hopes that sort of thing is the way to keep him (as is having a threesome to keep him interested). But it's not really about the cheating. It's not cheating that makes Don emotionally distant. Once he was over Megan he was over her and there was no getting him back whether or not they had an open marriage or not.

13 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

That was a demon she needed to put to rest to really move on. I don't think that was fair to Henry who was faithful, but I can understand Betty wanting to prove something to herself.

Yes, as much as I'm sure Henry would have hated it, I can't help but see that one-night stand as being good for the marriage because it's good for Betty. She needed to prove this to herself and she came away with a lot more understanding of Don. It made her deal with him better and stop projecting anxieties onto her relationship with Henry.

Melancholy · August 18, 2017

I don't even think Megan had an arrogant or idealistic belief that Don wouldn't cheat on her. At the beginning of their marriage, she's furious about Andrea and very much has a, "This is your pattern. This is your appetite. Of course, I'll never trust your cheating ass." After months of being a homebody, Megan flies into a throw-pasta-against-the-wall fit of rage because Don didn't phone to say that he'd be late and wasn't at the office for hours. That's not normal behavior for a wife, especially a wife at the beginning of their marriage. She pretends to be cool with being in California while he's in NY but then, being defensive over Don learning about her bad behavior in CA leads her to frantically say, "I know what you're like when left alone! I was your secretary! Who's your new girl, Don?!" like this was always what she was thinking.

I think Megan wanted the money and the status of being his wife and the special feeling of being chosen by such a high status man that she willfully turned a blind eye to everything else about Don and didn't even think about it. When she got married, she wised up to the fact that status would turn into humiliation if he walked out on her. A lot of how Megan deals with that feeling is partly preventative to keep him from straying but mostly, it feels like exorcising an anger that he's inevitably going to or already is betraying her even though she doesn't have the evidence yet.

sistermagpie · August 18, 2017

33 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

A lot of how Megan deals with that feeling is partly preventative to keep him from straying but mostly, it feels like exorcising an anger that he's inevitably going to or already is betraying her even though she doesn't have the evidence yet.

Also probably didn't help that when she went back to acting she herself made it clear that she relied on Don's interest in her for confidence, coming in for sex before an audition, saying "it's all I'm good for" when she failed to get work soon enough. Don and the acting world ignoring her? That's bad!

Ironically, Don can't in good conscious follow Marie's advice by nursing her through her disappointment so that she just gets her fulfillment from his attention. He tries to get her the career she wants, but she can't sustain it herself and winds up with nothing.

14 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

My view of Megan is that she's someone who normally gets what she wants easily. So when a situation comes where she struggles she doesn't have a coping mechanism for it. I also think Marie had Megan pegged when she said that Megan had the artistic temperament but not necessarily the talent. I think acting was the first thing she ever went after that required a lot more patience and perseverance than she was prepared for.

Exactly. When she starts working at SCDP she's already quit acting and is sour grapes-ing it. She would have been all of 24 or so at the time. She never finds something within herself to keep her going. She honestly only seems to feed off getting positive attention as an actor. In advertising she found success really easily. She seemed to find herself with the worst of both worlds. She couldn't value her easy success but didn't have the coping mechanism to keep working for a harder success that might never come.

voiceover · August 19, 2017

It occurred to me today, not for the first time, that his subpar surgical skills and general whinginess make Greg the Frank Burns of Vietnam.

Only this time he's married to Margaret, not having an affair with her.

TigerLynx · August 20, 2017

I didn't think that much about the characters' morality. If they entertained me and were interesting, I wanted to see what was going on with them. Roger Sterling was a very flawed person, but he was fun, and I like John Slattery. OTOH, I like John Hamm, and think he is a good actor, but could not care less about Don. By the end of the show, I was watching for Betty, Roger, Trudie, Joan and Peggy.

Betty might have bruised Don's ego when she left him, but Betty never hurt Don the way he did her. I believe Betty loved her children, and wanted to be a good mother, but I can also see why people say Betty shouldn't have had children. After Don's comments to Roger and Peter about Betty vs. Megan, where Don blames Betty for the failure of their marriage, I thought it was hilarious that Don proceeds to not only cheat on Megan, but to cheat on Megan with Betty.

I spent the entire run of the show thinking Trudie was to good for Pete, and she deserved better. When Trudie divorced Pete I was cheering her on, then she reveals she still loves Pete and wants to be with him. Pete says he still loves Trudie and wants to get back together, and I actually found myself hoping this time it worked out for them.

Out of the characters that were added to the show in the later seasons, the only one I really liked, found entertaining or interesting was Marie.

I thought Betty's story should have ended with her walk up the staircase at college. I didn't like Sally leaving school to take care of Betty and the boys. I don't think it was necessary. Henry could easily afford homecare and nurses for Betty, and he had already taken on the role of father to Bobby and Gene which is good because I have no doubt irresponsible flaky Don would have continued to disappear regularly.

sistermagpie · August 20, 2017

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I spent the entire run of the show thinking Trudie was to good for Pete, and she deserved better. When Trudie divorced Pete I was cheering her on, then she reveals she still loves Pete and wants to be with him. Pete says he still loves Trudie and wants to get back together, and I actually found myself hoping this time it worked out for them.

One of the things I really liked was that I felt like the show used the little time Trudy had to show that she had her own story going on so it made total sense to me that she wanted to get back with Pete. She wasn't just a prize that he got for learning things, and she'd clearly gone through her own learning process and changed.

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I thought Betty's story should have ended with her walk up the staircase at college. I didn't like Sally leaving school to take care of Betty and the boys. I don't think it was necessary. Henry could easily afford homecare and nurses for Betty, and he had already taken on the role of father to Bobby and Gene which is good because I have no doubt irresponsible flaky Don would have continued to disappear regularly.

Why would you think that Sally left school???!! I can't imagine anyone at that time even considering having a 16-year-old girl leave school to take care of her mother and her younger brothers. I don't think we're supposed to take the scene where she's doing the dishes as any sign that she's become a caretaker of anyone. Betty would stay at home until she needed medical care and then either go into the hospital or have a nurse at home. Sally was probably just home more often (or she may even have temporarily transferred to a local school) because she didn't have much time left with her mother, not because she was going to nurse or parent anyone.

TigerLynx · August 21, 2017

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

One of the things I really liked was that I felt like the show used the little time Trudy had to show that she had her own story going on so it made total sense to me that she wanted to get back with Pete. She wasn't just a prize that he got for learning things, and she'd clearly gone through her own learning process and changed.

Why would you think that Sally left school???!! I can't imagine anyone at that time even considering having a 16-year-old girl leave school to take care of her mother and her younger brothers. I don't think we're supposed to take the scene where she's doing the dishes as any sign that she's become a caretaker of anyone. Betty would stay at home until she needed medical care and then either go into the hospital or have a nurse at home. Sally was probably just home more often (or she may even have temporarily transferred to a local school) because she didn't have much time left with her mother, not because she was going to nurse or parent anyone.

I liked that Trudy and Pete actually talked and listened to each other when they were discussing getting back together. They both looked so happy when they agreed to give things another try. It seemed possible that this time they would be able to make their relationship work.

Maybe I misunderstood about Sally. It does make more sense that Sally would transfer to a local school so she could be around more.

sistermagpie · August 21, 2017

Went out to watch the eclipse. Naturally wound up in a discussion with somebody there about Suzanne Farrell. ;-)

He said it was his favorite episode because of her. I was surprised given I really disliked her (less so on rewatch, but still). Then he said he liked her because ht thought she was so totally nuts. He felt no one else was ever so crazy after her. I remember at the time people called her the Bunny Boiler because they were sure she was going to go Fatal Attraction on Don. Definitely a case of a character not coming across quite as intended. LOL! (Wound down with everyone laughing over Don's exchange with Carlton about Carlton's hobby of staring into the sun.)

caitmcg · August 21, 2017

On 8/20/2017 at 10:30 AM, sistermagpie said:

Why would you think that Sally left school???!! I can't imagine anyone at that time even considering having a 16-year-old girl leave school to take care of her mother and her younger brothers. I don't think we're supposed to take the scene where she's doing the dishes as any sign that she's become a caretaker of anyone. Betty would stay at home until she needed medical care and then either go into the hospital or have a nurse at home. Sally was probably just home more often (or she may even have temporarily transferred to a local school) because she didn't have much time left with her mother, not because she was going to nurse or parent anyone.

7 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Maybe I misunderstood about Sally. It does make more sense that Sally would transfer to a local school so she could be around more.

That final scene with Sally doing dishes while Betty sits at the kitchen table reading the newspaper is just a sketch that I think is simply meant to show us that Betty's mortality has forced 15-year-old Sally into a new maturity and emotional responsibility and also helped to repair the damaged bond between them, and that Betty will pass her remaining days amidst the attention and support of her family (still smoking till the end). The reversal of so many previous scenes, where Betty was doing kitchen tasks surrounded by her children, is symbolic, rather than a literal suggestion that the parent-child roles have been reversed and Sally is the caretaker.

Melancholy · August 21, 2017

This is certainly an UO but I liked Suzanne. First, the actress is very beautiful and talented and has great chemistry with JH. Second, I thought she was genuinely set up as morally grey, instead a purely black evil bunny boiler. Yes, she was pursuing the husband of a pregnant wife and contributing to breaking up her pupil's home. However, she was also spending her limited resources to take care of her epileptic, self-destructive brother. I believed her as a dedicated teacher who spent a lot of her free time thinking of her students. I did not believe she was in the habit of hooking up with suburban fathers/husbands. Both the writing and actress convinced that she was so attracted to Don (partly because of the misery of her life where her own home was broken and she was a rare single trapped in suburbia because of her job, unlike Peggy and Joan who live in Manhattan and can easily go pick up a single guy but they just have to have the married men they work with). The contradictions in Suzanne's personality were never delved into because she was such a short term character. So, she never became a favorite but then, I don't think anyone can accuse her of getting stale.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Melancholy

sistermagpie · August 21, 2017

6 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

did not believe she was in the habit of hooking up with suburban fathers/husbands. Both the writing and actress convinced that she was so attracted to Don (partly because of the misery of her life where her own home was broken and she was a rare single trapped in suburbia because of her job, unlike like Peggy and Joan who live in Manhattan and can easily go pick up a single guy but they just have to have the married men they work with).

But isn't she always somebody coming from a broken home who's going to be the single woman in the suburbs as a teacher at these schools? Isn't that what her whole opening spiel is about, when she says guys like Don are all alike even after she made her own pass at him over the phone (and later says she knows how this ends)? Upon re-watch especially she seemed more like just somebody who was a mess in her own self-destructive patterns than that she was miserable because of circumstances. I think she was even less self-destructive than her brother. His pattern seemed more based on outward circumstances.

That said, I never saw any of the Bunny Boiler stuff and never saw any signs she wanted to break up Don's home at all or have him for herself. I wasn't surprised when she let him go when he broke up with her. She did seem kind of trapped in her own world at times, but not that kind of world--one more like Don's where she was more likely to be thoughtlessly hurtful than aggressive. (Don could sometimes be aggressive, I guess, but that wasn't his normal state imo). On re-watch they seem really similar (she and Don) in the way they're both dealing with kids but also seeming to sort of be kids together or something.

Inquisitionist · August 21, 2017

21 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

This is certainly an UO but I liked Suzanne.

I liked Suzanne, too.

August 21, 2017

She was probably my second favorite of Don's mistresses.

txhorns79 · August 22, 2017

Quote

This is certainly an UO but I liked Suzanne.

I thought she was a little boring, but one thing I did appreciate was that the show really tried to make Don's mistresses into real people with their own outside interests and issues. They didn't always succeed (I thought Sylvia and Midge were poorly developed), but I appreciated the effort.

Melancholy · August 22, 2017

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But isn't she always somebody coming from a broken home who's going to be the single woman in the suburbs as a teacher at these schools? Isn't that what her whole opening spiel is about, when she says guys like Don are all alike even after she made her own pass at him over the phone (and later says she knows how this ends)? Upon re-watch especially she seemed more like just somebody who was a mess in her own self-destructive patterns than that she was miserable because of circumstances. I think she was even less self-destructive than her brother. His pattern seemed more based on outward circumstances.

I agree that Suzanne was self-destructive. But external circumstances were definitely making her unhappy. She didn't choose to lose her father at a young age, probably her mother too, and to have an epileptic brother to take care of. I still think Don was her first affair even if not her last. Her speech about suburban husbands felt like her efforts to resist good-looking, prosperous men with a proven ability to take care of families that she yearned for....who were taken and therefore morally unacceptable. That she would deliver the speech to Don and wilt when he claimed to be different seemed like Don was uniquely breaking down her resolve. Even if a woman never had an affair before, logic and tons of books, movies, and gossip tells her how it ends miserably with the mistress cast aside.

I liked most of Don's mistresses/wives/girlfriends. My only "exceptions". Diana was too much of a weird pill for me to get into (although she didn't have much screentime). Megan is generally interesting, especially to debate, but she got stale at times because she hung around so long as an important character but without participation in SC or with Don's kids to remain key to the story's main themes. Other than those two, I think the other women were interesting, played by talented actresses who jived well with Jon Hamm (even though I think the writing for Don disavows standard sexual chemistry) and never got boring.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Melancholy

sistermagpie · August 22, 2017

4 hours ago, Melancholy said:

. I still think Don was her first affair even if not her last. Her speech about suburban husbands felt like her efforts to resist good-looking, prosperous men with a proven ability to take care of families that she yearned for....who were taken and therefore morally unacceptable. That she would deliver the speech to Don and wilt when he claimed to be different seemed like Don was uniquely breaking down her resolve. Even if a woman never had an affair before, logic and tons of books, movies, and gossip tells her how it ends miserably with the mistress cast aside.

For me, I think I'd need it to be played out more if the character is supposed to be having her resolve uniquely broken. Don't have her make weary speeches that are actually just about movies and make inappropriate phone calls and flirt. If her resolve's broken by Don saying he's different it doesn't seem like much of a resolve. Iirc, when her brother showed up he didn't seem surprised to find a Don there. I also really don't remember ever getting the impression she was longing for a family she couldn't have because she was a teacher, or that she connected having a family with being all that prosperous. If her goal was marriage and family she had far better options.

Melancholy · August 22, 2017

46 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

For me, I think I'd need it to be played out more if the character is supposed to be having her resolve uniquely broken. Don't have her make weary speeches that are actually just about movies and make inappropriate phone calls and flirt. If her resolve's broken by Don saying he's different it doesn't seem like much of a resolve. Iirc, when her brother showed up he didn't seem surprised to find a Don there. I also really don't remember ever getting the impression she was longing for a family she couldn't have because she was a teacher, or that she connected having a family with being all that prosperous. If her goal was marriage and family she had far better options.

I get that Suzanne read differently to us. I read her as stressed and unhappy with her life. Her speech of "the rich families around here have too much so they get bored" struck me as jealousy, especially when contrasted with her life stresses and lower income status in a rich community. I took her fumbling efforts to get Don as real. She seems sincere when mid-way through the drunken phone call, she's embarrassed that she called. Then, she didn't pursue Don until he ran into her at 5 am and then, Don made the hard sell from that point on. I'm not saying that she had Rachel Menkenesque rather firm resolve about not getting involved with a married men that had to be eroded over a whole season. She was clearly ripe for an affair. But that ripeness felt like unhappiness with her life getting her to a breaking point and a particularly powerful attraction to Don because I don't think shared orphan-status comes up in other parent teacher conferences (which most dads didn't even attend based on Suzanne's reaction to Don being there) and most suburban dads aren't nearly as sexy and glamorous as Don. It was not a practiced skill ala Bobbi Barrett.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Melancholy

sistermagpie · August 22, 2017

8 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

It was not a practiced skill ala Bobbi Barrett.

I think, just using this line as a sum-up but referring to the whole post, that we do see her very similarly in terms of how she's relating to Don and the affair. I tend to see it as a mistake she's made before rather than this being the first time, but that part's just head canon. Either way, the way she's acting during the actual story where we see her, it's the same.

qtpye · August 24, 2017

On 8/15/2017 at 4:22 PM, deaja said:

In the elimination game thread, @Melancholy said a sentence about characters' sins, and it really made me think. One thing that I've noticed from Mad Men writers and even fan reactions is how different characters are portrayed by the writers and viewed by most fans is strange to me. Some characters seem to be allowed constant excuses while others don't.

Don is often cited as an anti-hero, and people don't justify his reactions as much, though he is given leeway for his bad childhood.

The characters I've most often seen as excused or given passes for bad behavior are Joan and Betty.

Betty - at times, a very cold mother. A terrible employer. Has a one-night stand in a bar. Has an emotional affair with Henry Francis. Develops a very strange relationship with a young child. I've seen all of these explained away as "Don was worse" or "Don cheated a lot." Somehow that excuses her cheating on Henry with Don?

Joan - had a longstanding affair with a married man; showed a petty and vindictive streak to the other women in the office; used her sexuality to advance her career and judged those who didn't; literally prostituted herself for money; lied about her son's parentage; cheated on her husband. She's routinely excused as either "She was a product of her times; she had no other way to get ahead" or "Greg was much worse than Joan so he deserved to be cheated on and lied to about his son."

Comparing them to some other characters:

Harry Crane - got a big ego after career success; cheated on his wife. By the end of the show, he was pretty much just a laughingstock that the writers trotted out to mock.

Megan Draper - decided she didn't want to do advertising but wanted to be an actress; is fairly immature. Considered by many to be a villain.

Even Stan, while more minor of a character, wasn't portrayed as a very good person (cheated on his serious girlfriend, his intro to the show where he repeatedly and viciously attacked Peggy's looks) overall, but at the end, he and Peggy were seemingly very happy and very together.

I'm wondering how much of this was the way the characters were written ("knowing" them more so feeling more insight as to their actions), the personalities of the actors, or something else.

On 8/15/2017 at 5:17 PM, film noire said:

I think great acting and writing often trumps a viewer's sense of morality -- so if Megan had been written well, and played by a great actress, the reactions might have been very different (and if Sally had been a crappy kid actress, I doubt Melancholy would be saving her ass so late in the game :)

That said, I also think there are (very loosely) two different kinds of viewers. Those who care about the morality of what a character is doing (Don cheated, Joan used sex to get a partnership, Betty is a bad mother, etc) versus viewers (like me) who don't care about the morality or likeability of any one character or moment, but whether it makes for compelling drama, presents opportunities for great acting, and creates an almost charismatic quality to the show itself, one that draws you back. It's reel life, so I can throw myself into grappling with psychologically toxic behavior that I'd stay clear of (and condemn) in anyone in real life.

But I'm not sure that's an excuse, so much as a perspective drawn from the "world of the show" -- it's not a sweeping moral validation of one character or another, it's Joan's story, as shown to us, and people reacting to that unique story. If the same story line happened elsewhere (to someone more likeable, like Meredith say) those very same people condemning Joan would be high-fiving Meredith - because Meredith's circumstances speak more to them, as viewers, than Joan's. Less excuse, maybe more "That speaks to me, and I get why she did that."

On 8/16/2017 at 0:53 AM, ivygirl said:

I think part of the failure with Megan's character was that the show telegraphed how much we were supposed to love her. I just started S4 and it's right there from the beginning--several times over the first few episodes, she's trotted out in the most awkward of ways ("Megan, go [do x]") to call attention to her presence in the scene, in a way that wasn't typical of other secretaries in the pool, so to speak. Then we're told she's a great writer, and told how beautiful she is, and told she's amazing (she snags Don, after all--I mean, not a prize IRL but certainly in the world of the show he's the big game), and told she's a fun, hip young woman, and told she'd be a great actress if only. And then when it's time for the divorce, we know it's because of Don (which hey, yeah, but the divorce with Betty was far more nuanced). Any time a character is written like that, they're bound to be unappealing.

It's especially odd within the context of a show like Mad Men that typically makes no explicit moral pronouncements about ANY character, even Creepy Pete and especially Messy Don. We're respected enough to be allowed our personal reads on the character just by observing them. (IMO It's why we might excuse, overlook, or shrug off our favorite character's flaws while noticing and getting irritated by almost everything our less-favorite characters do.) With Megan, however, we aren't given a choice, so we as viewers (or I as a viewer, mmv) rebel.

Some have felt that Peggy gets a soft/boring edit that allows her the halo of righteousness. I won't deny she received a bit of that (she's not the most terrible, behavior wise, in comparison to many other characters)--but I also think that self righteousness drives part of what she's crafted to make us feel--much like Pete is designed to make us feel icky (imo, lol). It IS her flaw--as opposed to Megan who did annoying things, but we arent supposed to find them annoying. If that makes sense...

On 8/16/2017 at 9:09 AM, deaja said:

Don was great to her at times, but awful at other times. It was very hot and cold. She was this perfect vision to him, and then a few months later, he was cheating on her with the neighbor. He helped her launch her acting career, and then he had her quit her steady job to move to California. They were going to move to California and work on pursuing their dreams except, oh wait. He changed his mind.

I do think in her last episode (where she got the million) she was acting like a petulant child.

On 8/16/2017 at 6:55 PM, voiceover said:

"The Beautiful Girls" -- one of the strangest gamuts of Sublime to Ridiculous, and back, in series history.

Miss Blankenship's sudden death was sad and horrible. Until it was Eating Raoul-level darkly comic, with Peter, Joan, and Megan dealing with her body, in a dumbshow bit of brilliance that always makes me burst out laughing -- esp with Harry's whining punchline about the afghan.

Then Cooper needs help with the obit. Joan & Roger offer soothing support, which leads to his epiphany about Ida: born in a barn, died on the 37th floor of a high rise; "She was an astronaut!"

Which always makes me burst into tears.

Then the ground opens up, and the show falls down the Megan-hole. I remember posting about this ep in real time at TWoP, and someone predicted her elevation to Mrs Draperdom, and I know I'm not the only one who stammered & scoffed & rolled my eyes to the moon at such a ridiculous show-killing plot twist idea.

Poop.

On 8/17/2017 at 1:04 AM, small potatoes said:

I think you are wrong about this, you and the vast majority of other fans and posters. The show didn't telegraph how much we were supposed to love her. The examples you cited were calling attention to her in the sense of foreshadowing that she might become important but not that we were meant to like her. Then later, when she was made to look good, it was only through Don's eyes or from the perspective of employees who had to go with the flow.

In one of her early appearances, she accidentally yanked the projector plug out of the socket. It was the third time a Mad Man character had pulled a plug: the first was when Greg ripped the vacuum cleaner plug out of the wall; the second when Duck turned off the TV so that Peggy wouldn't be distracted by the JFK assassination and ruin their nooner. When Megan did it, accidentally, I took it as a way of telling the audience to look out for her as a toxic influence, although not necessarily in a deliberately mean way.

When Don announced their engagement, Peggy was dumbfounded, Joan was skeptical, and Roger more or less said welcome to the club of old guys who marry vapid arm candy after leaving their equally attractive and far more deserving first wives.

Megan was so tone deaf she gave Don Revolver and told him to play Tomorrow Never Knows first. It's the least accessible song on the album and turned him off from listening to the rest. If Don had played Side One from the beginning he would have heard Taxman and called Lane into his office, first thing in the morning, loaned Lane enough to take care of his problems, and prevented a tragedy.

So I say, wrong, wrong, wrong. We were not supposed to love Megan. We were supposed to resent her for taking time away from characters we liked better.

On 8/17/2017 at 3:11 AM, ivygirl said:

I just watched that scene about an hour ago and I didn't see that in there... just that she was a little nervous and/or klutzy in the situation (e.g. She hates conflict or trouble), and it gave Stan a chance/excuse to check out her rear end.

Furthermore in every interview I'd read, Weiner was overall positive about Megan; I never read anything that led me to believe we were supposed to resent her.

So obviously our perspectives are different; but based on what I watched and have read, I personally can't see Megan as a character deliberately designed to make us resent her.

On 8/17/2017 at 3:40 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, Allan's motivation in that situation was exactly the same as Megan's--he wanted her to get work. That's why he called Don, because Megan was destroying her own reputation and he thought maybe having her husband in California so she had someone to personally support her would give her more confidence. I think he would have done the same thing if Megan was a man. There was more to it than just "come control your wife." Especially since Allan had presumably said this to Megan herself.

It did seem like Amy had a crush on Megan and maybe that helped her confidence. It would make sense given we saw Joyce as proof that Megan did tend to attract these kinds of followers, and then we saw that Megan got confidence from Don's attraction to her.

Then, of course, there's Megan's getting rid of Stephanie because she's threatened by Don getting an eyeful of her dewey pregnant vulnerable homeless self. Even if one thinks that threat was real that's not a woman acting out of sunny goodwill.

On 8/17/2017 at 11:18 PM, Luckylyn said:

My view of Megan is that she's someone who normally gets what she wants easily. So when a situation comes where she struggles she doesn't have a coping mechanism for it. I also think Marie had Megan pegged when she said that Megan had the artistic temperament but not necessarily the talent. I think acting was the first thing she ever went after that required a lot more patience and perseverance than she was prepared for.

When it comes to her marriage to Don, Megan had a clearer idea of what she was marrying into than Betty did. Having worked for Don, Megan would have heard the rumors of his cheating history. She also instigated a sexual relationship with Don while she knew he was in a relationship with Faye. She's the last person who should have been surprised that he would cheat on her too. I think she had this fantasy of who Don could be with her and she just couldn't look at the reality of who he was until it was too late. Even though she knew Don's history, she thought for her he would be different which was naive or maybe it was arrogance that she'd be the one he'd be faithful to.

Don married his idea of Megan and had no clue at all who she was. He was trying to avoid having to do the hard work of looking at himself and changing. Faye challenged Don to try to face his issues, but Don couldn't handle that. He started some introspection but then settled on Megan as some sort of short cut to happiness. He decided to put it on Megan's shoulders to save him. Then, when Megan turns out to be a human being with flaws and not the perfect savior he was looking for he unfairly resents her for it. I think that's the same thing he did to Betty when he married her. I really despised it when he told Pete that if Megan had been his first wife he would not have cheated as if his issues being faithful were somehow Betty's fault. That's part of the reason I think Betty had that one night stand with Don after marrying Henry. In a way, it reassured her that Don would cheat on anyone and that it wasn't just her. That was a demon she needed to put to rest to really move on. I don't think that was fair to Henry who was faithful, but I can understand Betty wanting to prove something to herself.

On 8/18/2017 at 0:59 PM, Melancholy said:

I don't even think Megan had an arrogant or idealistic belief that Don wouldn't cheat on her. At the beginning of their marriage, she's furious about Andrea and very much has a, "This is your pattern. This is your appetite. Of course, I'll never trust your cheating ass." After months of being a homebody, Megan flies into a throw-pasta-against-the-wall fit of rage because Don didn't phone to say that he'd be late and wasn't at the office for hours. That's not normal behavior for a wife, especially a wife at the beginning of their marriage. She pretends to be cool with being in California while he's in NY but then, being defensive over Don learning about her bad behavior in CA leads her to frantically say, "I know what you're like when left alone! I was your secretary! Who's your new girl, Don?!" like this was always what she was thinking.

I think Megan wanted the money and the status of being his wife and the special feeling of being chosen by such a high status man that she willfully turned a blind eye to everything else about Don and didn't even think about it. When she got married, she wised up to the fact that status would turn into humiliation if he walked out on her. A lot of how Megan deals with that feeling is partly preventative to keep him from straying but mostly, it feels like exorcising an anger that he's inevitably going to or already is betraying her even though she doesn't have the evidence yet.

I just re-watched the one where Megan throws him a surprise birthday party. It is cringe worthy in almost every way. Don is infatuated and he can not keep his hands off her. They are in the honeymoon period and Don thinks he had everything he has ever wanted. The firm is stable and the woman he married is the perfect combination of Betty and Anna and Peggy. First, Megan insists upon the party and the pathetic guest list just shines a light on the fact that Don has little in the way of friends. Even the accountant gets an invite and gives Don an embarrassing awkward hug right as he walks in the door. We then have the accountant's very frumpy and older looking wife right behind him looking totally out of place . The joke is that his wife is at a great disadvantage age and looks wise to Megan.

I agree Megan always seems to have followers. There definitely a young artistic crowd gathering around her at the party and she is the center of attention. Megan is beautiful and personable, but I think the attraction is she is a young woman married to a rich powerful man. A man who can cast struggling actors and actresses in commercials if needed. Her followers are also kind of parasites who want to live off the largess of her good fortune. This was particularly true of the girl who Megan had the threesome with in LA.

What is hilarious is that even though Megan is beautiful, she really is not effortlessly sexy, like a lot of the other characters (men and women) on this show. When she tells Peggy that everyone goes home and has sex after her parties it is awkward, it like an awkward 12 year old being excited about boys. Then even though she has a great pair of legs, her performance at the party is as sexy as a toothy giraffe flailing about. She is trying too hard at it and it comes off a little pathetic.

Then when the party is over, she goes over to Don, thinking he will be happy. Instead he is in a foul mood and she can not understand why. She thinks he is just being pouty because he is turning forty (which she thinks is old, though oddly she does not really look that much younger then him) and then says something to the effect "Awww, nobody loves poor Dick Whitman". I actually cringe when she says this and it must have made Don feel like shit.

It also does not help that the actress just does not seem to have a handle on the character. Even small bit parts on Mad Men are well done...just think about how Flo the insurance lady played one of the telephone operators in the original agency and most people do not realize this. However JP had no handle on who she is and seems to be just as confused by the writing as you are.

I have no idea if we are supposed to love or hate Megan, but she really is the fly in the ointment of a brilliantly crafted series.

Edited August 24, 2017 by qtpye

Melancholy · August 24, 2017

14 hours ago, qtpye said:

First, Megan insists upon the party and the pathetic guest list just shines a light on the fact that Don has little in the way of friends. Even the accountant gets an invite and gives Don an embarrassing awkward hug right as he walks in the door. We then have the accountant's very frumpy and older looking wife right behind him looking totally out of place . The joke is that his wife is at a great disadvantage age and looks wise

You know, maybe this is an UO, but I don't think the guest list was that pathetic. Most people who reach 40 don't have tons of besties. They spend most time with their coworkers. Especially anyone who left their hometown and didn't go to college so they don't have the friendship bonds of childhood. Many adults would invite their accountant or lawyer or primary doctor to a party. Megan's ridiculous to say that Frank was a pathetic invite because he's Don's accountant. Those types of professionals do become "very important" to adults. Frankly, this says more about how Megan regards "the help"' as a newly rich bride to assume that anyone hired by them is a pathetic invite

The pathetic, "your life choices are shit" part is that Don was having this party organized by his twenty something bride instead of his first family. That expectation to have an apartment full of good time buddies is a mid-20s one. The 40-year old successful birthday is more about the family on the guest list.

I find Megan and Peggy incredibly disloyal and bitchy in that conversation where they're snarking about Don's age and how many friends he has and Megan is blabbing about who in the office Don dislikes. It's bad enough on Peggy. But it's particularly infuriating because Megan is operating under the pretense that she's doing something nice for Don which he should appreciate. I can't imagine Megan would think Don "Discretion" Draper would be cool with Megan making jokes at his expense and blabbering about their private conversations with other employees. This whole birthday was just a platform for Megan to perform from the planning to Zous Bisous to making a performance out of punishing Don and Peggy for not behaving as expected. Because Megan only cares about herself. Megan throws that accusation at Don and it's inaccurate because Don cares about a bunch of people, even if he treats them badly. But with Megan, I really don't think she cared about anyone but herself. (With allowances for how she's young and may develop those bonds in the future.)

And as Megan sells her as The Ace Social Butterfly, her instincts were a complete flop. The folks in the office resented getting a last minute invitation to go to work function with all of the attendant formalities to pay homage to the king and queen when they're off the clock. (I'd resent that even though I'd be part of the pro-Don side of the office through the series.) And she didn't invite Joan who was THE ONE person who wanted to spend an evening with these people because absence makes the heart grow fonder and Joan didn't need to rest from work or meet deadlines. Most people thought the Zous Bisous thing was ridiculous and it wasn't just crass pigs like Roger and Harry joking about it in the office but Lane too.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Melancholy

Luckylyn · August 24, 2017

I really think that party was about Megan's desire to perform in front of an audience. She wants to believe it's for Don but it's just a precursor to Megan getting back to acting. At this point, Megan was still lying to herself about being over her acting aspirations.

sistermagpie · August 24, 2017

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

The pathetic, "your life choices are shit" part is that Don was having this party organized by his twenty something bride instead of his first family. That expectation to have an apartment full of good time buddies is a mid-20s one. The 40-year old successful birthday is more about the family on the guest list.

It's interesting to remember that if Don was still in the suburbs he totally would have had a party full of friends there. It would be like Sally's birthday party. Plenty of adults who wouldn't have felt out of place at Don's house in Ossining. In the city, though, naturally Don's home life was more his work life.

In the suburbs those people were friends because they were *there* to go to parties and social events with each other. As a businessman Don would have had plenty of acquaintances who would have been thrilled to come to a work-related get together. I'm sure nobody in the ad world would describe Don as socially inept. Ironically, Don's the character who has the clearest, most genuine friendship on the show, imo: Roger. He's also got a strong relationship with Peggy too, of course, but his relationship with Roger is exactly what most people think of when they imagine a guy having a friend. He and Roger enjoy hanging out together, they talk to each other a lot, including about important things. They even work through a patch where they're fighting. Megan has no friendship that compares to it. What she does have, naturally, is a bunch of 20-something artist types for whom parties are a big part of their life. (Peggy, also, at that point in her life has a bunch of 20-somethings.)

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

And she didn't invite Joan who was THE ONE person who wanted to spend an evening with these people because absence makes the heart grow fonder and Joan didn't need to rest from work or meet deadlines. Most people thought the Zous Bisous thing was ridiculous and it wasn't just crass pigs like Roger and Harry joking about it in the office but Lane too.

I thought she did invite Joan and Joan just thought she wasn't really invited because the invitation came so late? Being out of the loop during that one phase of her life, Joan didn't realize that everybody got their invitation that late. I could be remembering that wrong.

But everything else, I agree. I remember at the time I just couldn't be on her side at all. When someone tells you, seriously, that they don't enjoy birthday parties--much less surprise ones--that's something you respect. If you choose to use their birthday to have a big party where you get to perform, that's you using their birthday for yourself and making them even more repulsed by birthdays. Serves her right that she didn't get the reaction she wanted. I loved how even somebody like Lane who isn't enjoying being catty winds up being his funniest just by having to relate the experience.

It's wonderful foreshadowing when you think about it. Right away Megan uses Don (and his money) as a way to buy herself a captive audience and still winds up feeling insecure and resentful when she can't exactly hold up her own end by getting the audience reaction she wants.

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

What is hilarious is that even though Megan is beautiful, she really is not effortlessly sexy, like a lot of the other characters (men and women) on this show. When she tells Peggy that everyone goes home and has sex after her parties it is awkward, it like an awkward 12 year old being excited about boys. Then even though she has a great pair of legs, her performance at the party is as sexy as a toothy giraffe flailing about. She is trying too hard at it and it comes off a little pathetic.

Yeah, I feel like we were supposed to be amazed by it but it never really seemed to work. I remember feeling at the time that the show itself was working overtime to make Zou Bisou happen. There was a ton of publicity, they sold 45s, but it really didn't ever feel organic to me. It didn't come across to me as sexy or effortless--trying too hard, pathetic and even "flailing toothy giraffe" is closer to the mark to me.

It's not that she's so terrible, it's just that she's not good enough for it to be comfortable like it would be with a professional. No wonder it doesn't at all get the kind of love as Pete and Trudy's Charleston gets. That performance was supposed to be two amateurs who weren't claiming to be anything but. They're surprisingly good because you don't expect them to be good at all, and the actors do, I think, play the characters as having genuine fun doing it. Sure they're trying to make a good impression--you can see Pete checking for approval--but it never overwhelms the fun they seem to be having.

With Megan everyone in the room is constantly aware that this is a performance that's supposed to impress them and turn them on. The Campbells dance, of course, also slips naturally into the setting--they just wait for the Charleston to play and dance along. Megan paid the band to accompany her, choreographed her dance and shushes everyone to watch. Both performances hover on the edge of being delightful and being uncomfortable, but they wind up, imo, falling on different sides. One wins the goodwill of the audience (and even a bit of jealousy, iirc, from Harry's wife). The other becomes a funny ad world story.

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