Mad Men - General Discussion

[VCRTracking]

[voiceover]

Oh hooray.  Think pieces bring out the Season 3 Don Draper in me.  

"Love Among the Ruins" was Don at his finest, cut-the-bullshit, most expert, exquisite problem-solver: Madison Square Garden & Betty's dad.

Adored his pitch to the MSG guy, his explanation of sex appeal via Ann-Margret, and that pithy, but epic, shut down of his FiL ("You were in the Army, Gene.  Drop your socks & grab something!")

I always need a cigarette after this ep.

[voiceover]

Today's scene with his weeping, homesick wife reminded me of how much I liked Lane, really.  

She brings up the fact that ""It's not London; it's not even England!", and his response: 

"I know.  It's been 10 months and no one's asked me where I went to school."  Bwah!

That's because in the U.S., the question is, "What do you do?"

[qtpye]

14 hours ago, voiceover said:

Today's scene with his weeping, homesick wife reminded me of how much I liked Lane, really.  

She brings up the fact that ""It's not London; it's not even England!", and his response: 

"I know.  It's been 10 months and no one's asked me where I went to school."  Bwah!

That's because in the U.S., the question is, "What do you do?"

The sad part is we know Lane is trying to run away from his problems and he ends up no happier in America.  I always get sad when I see oldschool Lane trying so hard to find his place.

On the rewatch something occurs to me.  We know that most of Betty's unhappiness stems from the horrible way Don treats her.  However, when she comes home from Italy, she talks about how she hates their life and friends.  I realize that Betty was a woman leading an average mostly middle class life, who was actually raised to be a socialite.  In this way she was much more compatible with her second husband.  Itbothers her that her life is so small and being a political wife of an old money family really suited her.

Edited August 1, 2017 by qtpye

[voiceover]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

 Betty was a woman leading an average mostly middle class life, who was actually raised to be a socialite.  In this way she was much more compatible with her second husband.  Itbothers her that her life is so small and being a political wife of an old money family really suited her.

For awhile.  Then she put on all that weight, and later slept with her ex.

She was unhappy with Don, but sometimes she was happy; she was happy with Henry, but sometimes she was unhappy too.

I always thought Henry was a Daddy replacement.  She pulled the trigger on that divorce less than a year after Gene died.  Lots of people (okay, women) jump into marriage right after a parent dies.

Not that the Draper marriage wasn't ultimately doomed.

[voiceover]

"Shut the door; Have a seat" -- one of the most perfect episodes of television ever written. This series should have ended on that note: Don looking at the cramped hotel room of the starter agency, a big smile on his face.

There was some interesting stuff in the years that followed, but never again as good: Roger's "Four guys just shot their own legs off!" (my favorite MM line); Pete's "I'm not really sick,"; the grin on Lane's face when St John fires him; and the teary-eyed moment between Don and Peggy ("You'll never speak to me again!" (pause) "No...I will spend the rest of my life trying to hire you.")

If this episode was a man, I'd spend the rest of MY life trying to sleep with him.

[Dev F]

On 8/1/2017 at 7:54 AM, qtpye said:

On the rewatch something occurs to me.  We know that most of Betty's unhappiness stems from the horrible way Don treats her.  However, when she comes home from Italy, she talks about how she hates their life and friends.  I realize that Betty was a woman leading an average mostly middle class life, who was actually raised to be a socialite.  In this way she was much more compatible with her second husband.  Itbothers her that her life is so small and being a political wife of an old money family really suited her.

This actually brings up an interesting question: Is Henry old money? I know a lot of people got that impression, but my sense was more that he was a solidly middle-class guy who put his head down and diligently worked his way into wealth and power. When he talks about his childhood, it doesn't sound excessively privileged -- he mentions doing jackknifes into the reservoir and working as a furniture mover. Even as a grown man, his mom expects him to stop by her house after Thanksgiving is over and put the extra table leaves in the basement for her. So although she was shouting for a maid during Thanksgiving a few days earlier, she doesn't seem like someone who's used to being waited on hand and foot by the help, either.

If Henry does come from a more modest background, that makes the fact that Betty left Don for him even sadder. Because it means he wasn't doomed to lose her to someone tonier; she wanted a hard-working, salt-of-the-earth guy, just one who was more honest about where he came from. (Of course, whether that extends to a dirt farmer's son who was raised in a whorehouse is something we'll never know.)

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Dev F said:

If Henry does come from a more modest background, that makes the fact that Betty left Don for him even sadder. Because it means he wasn't doomed to lose her to someone tonier; she wanted a hard-working, salt-of-the-earth guy, just one who was more honest about where he came from. (Of course, whether that extends to a dirt farmer's son who was raised in a whorehouse is something we'll never know.)

Yup--I mean, we do know that Betty knew Don didn't come from money because she saw the way he related to it.

I didn't get the impression that Henry was old money on the level of Roger (in wealth) or Pete (in wealth/history). Roger knows who he is and he's at Margaret's wedding, but by that point Henry's made a name for himself. Margaret was friends with his daughter but I didn't get the sense that Roger and Henry grew up in the same circles. His mother, I agree, comes across more like a middle class woman whose son was very successful than a mother like Roger's or Pete's.

So yeah, I would totally believe that Henry was closer to what Betty thought Don was than a big step up from either Don or herself. But then, that's one thing Betty never seemed that interested in. Adventure seemed to be more of a draw to her than money or snobbery. Henry had the mixture of being a solid guy in terms of personality who had a more exciting job (and her being married added some excitement at first too).

[Melancholy]

I think the Francis family had family money. A city political aide does not make a big salary, even if it's an exciting, prestigious position. However, Henry was able to afford a mansion and take on the costs of 3 children without even a word of negotiating child support. Maybe that means Henry had a successful business career before he went into politics- but we didn't really hear about it. And much smaller, but Mama Francis acts like a woman who had been successful when she was young and therefore has room to lecture Betty/Sally. I would think that meant marrying well. There are plenty of families with wealth handed down that still raise the children to have character-building manual labor jobs when they're young and who don't have a coterie of servants to keep home tasks of as a family endeavor. Both Henry and his mother had salt-of-the-earth, blunt, plain-spoken New York miens but then, so did Gene Hofstadt and he represented family money. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I think the Francis family had family money. A city political aide does not make a big salary, even if it's an exciting, prestigious position. However, Henry was able to afford a mansion and take on the costs of 3 children without even a word of negotiating child support. Maybe that means Henry had a successful business career before he went into politics- but we didn't really hear about it. And much smaller, but Mama Francis acts like a woman who had been successful when she was young and therefore has room to lecture Betty/Sally. I would think that meant marrying well. There are plenty of families with wealth handed down that still raise the children to have character-building manual labor jobs when they're young and who don't have a coterie of servants to keep home tasks of as a family endeavor. Both Henry and his mother had salt-of-the-earth, blunt, plain-spoken New York miens but then, so did Gene Hofstadt and he represented family money. 

 

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup--I mean, we do know that Betty knew Don didn't come from money because she saw the way he related to it.

I didn't get the impression that Henry was old money on the level of Roger (in wealth) or Pete (in wealth/history). Roger knows who he is and he's at Margaret's wedding, but by that point Henry's made a name for himself. Margaret was friends with his daughter but I didn't get the sense that Roger and Henry grew up in the same circles. His mother, I agree, comes across more like a middle class woman whose son was very successful than a mother like Roger's or Pete's.

So yeah, I would totally believe that Henry was closer to what Betty thought Don was than a big step up from either Don or herself. But then, that's one thing Betty never seemed that interested in. Adventure seemed to be more of a draw to her than money or snobbery. Henry had the mixture of being a solid guy in terms of personality who had a more exciting job (and her being married added some excitement at first too).

The tragedy was that Betty loved Don and he threw it all away.  She did not know about his past, but when she married him, he was nothing more then a humble fur salesman.  Betty, with her looks, education, and family could have married someone much fancier.

Her reward was a selfish man who ignored her and slept with many women.   He even had a mistress waiting in the car the day she found out. It shocks me that many people felt sorryfor Don and thought Betty was a witch for wanting a divorce.   Don's best con was seeming like a good man to the audience, when he never was anything close.

I grew up in the south and always admired how old Yankee money seemed down to earth and practical.  It is probably how a lot of those famlies have kept their wealth for generations.

13 hours ago, voiceover said:

"Shut the door; Have a seat" -- one of the most perfect episodes of television ever written. This series should have ended on that note: Don looking at the cramped hotel room of the starter agency, a big smile on his face.

There was some interesting stuff in the years that followed, but never again as good: Roger's "Four guys just shot their own legs off!" (my favorite MM line); Pete's "I'm not really sick,"; the grin on Lane's face when St John fires him; and the teary-eyed moment between Don and Peggy ("You'll never speak to me again!" (pause) "No...I will spend the rest of my life trying to hire you.")

If this episode was a man, I'd spend the rest of MY life trying to sleep with him.

If this episode were a man, I would ask it to marry me.  It is sheer television perfection.  Don is dynamic and powerful, yet he has to hold his hat and tell every single person he wants to come with hom how much they mean to him.  It is thrilling and the peak of the series.  He even convinces Roger and Burt to risk their fortunes.

Mad Men goes down for me after Don and Megan have their fight at the Howard Jonsons.  This is when the show switched oit a lot of its focus from the business, which was always my favorite part.

On Tuesday, August 01, 2017 at 10:49 AM, voiceover said:

For awhile.  Then she put on all that weight, and later slept with her ex.

She was unhappy with Don, but sometimes she was happy; she was happy with Henry, but sometimes she was unhappy too.

I always thought Henry was a Daddy replacement.  She pulled the trigger on that divorce less than a year after Gene died.  Lots of people (okay, women) jump into marriage right after a parent dies.

Not that the Draper marriage wasn't ultimately doomed.

A lot of people have speculated that the fat Betty plot was just to make Meghan look better by comparison.  Weiner wanted everyone to see that Megan was a big step up from Betty and did not help that Betty was the younger looking of the two.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I think the Francis family had family money. A city political aide does not make a big salary, even if it's an exciting, prestigious position. However, Henry was able to afford a mansion and take on the costs of 3 children without even a word of negotiating child support. Maybe that means Henry had a successful business career before he went into politics- but we didn't really hear about it. And much smaller, but Mama Francis acts like a woman who had been successful when she was young and therefore has room to lecture Betty/Sally. I would think that meant marrying well. There are plenty of families with wealth handed down that still raise the children to have character-building manual labor jobs when they're young and who don't have a coterie of servants to keep home tasks of as a family endeavor. Both Henry and his mother had salt-of-the-earth, blunt, plain-spoken New York miens but then, so did Gene Hofstadt and he represented family money. 

I think it depends on the definition of "had money." I think of Henry as having money like Betty did, rather than how Roger and Pete did.  Not the elite, but perfectly respectable, not wanting for anything--money to fight over if it comes to that. Henry probably went to good schools etc. He could have gone to private schools like Sally and Glen.

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

A lot of people have speculated that the fat Betty plot was just to make Meghan look better by comparison.  Weiner wanted everyone to see that Megan was a big step up from Betty and did not help that Betty was the younger looking of the two.

If that was the case, imo it never worked. It always amazed me how by the end of the show Megan looked so much older. Betty still reigned supreme for me by the end of the show. It seems somehow significant that Megan seemed to go in the direction of being more made up and glam when others didn't. Trudy, for instance, went for a more natural look and looked great.

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it depends on the definition of "had money." I think of Henry as having money like Betty did, rather than how Roger and Pete did.  Not the elite, but perfectly respectable, not wanting for anything--money to fight over if it comes to that. Henry probably went to good schools etc. He could have gone to private schools like Sally and Glen.

If that was the case, imo it never worked. It always amazed me how by the end of the show Megan looked so much older. Betty still reigned supreme for me by the end of the show. It seems somehow significant that Megan seemed to go in the direction of being more made up and glam when others didn't. Trudy, for instance, went for a more natural look and looked great.

The showrunner wanted to show that Don could never be faithful, even being married to what the showrunner thought was the perfect woman (Megan).

They would give Megan about 30 pounds of make up and false hair and the other women on the show still looked better.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, qtpye said:

They would give Megan about 30 pounds of make up and false hair and the other women on the show still looked better.

And it always made me think of one of Megan's first moments on screen when she claims that her French mother instructed her to never put anything on her face to wash it except water. (Which was completely ridiculous even back when Megan wasn't wearing as much make up.)

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it depends on the definition of "had money." I think of Henry as having money like Betty did, rather than how Roger and Pete did.  Not the elite, but perfectly respectable, not wanting for anything--money to fight over if it comes to that. Henry probably went to good schools etc. He could have gone to private schools like Sally and Glen.

If that was the case, imo it never worked. It always amazed me how by the end of the show Megan looked so much older. Betty still reigned supreme for me by the end of the show. It seems somehow significant that Megan seemed to go in the direction of being more made up and glam when others didn't. Trudy, for instance, went for a more natural look and looked great.

Yes, I don't think the Francises were fabulously wealthy to the point that Henry felt like he could be idle and live lavishly and still have a lot of money left over as Roger could even though he "worked" ("There's a deck chair somewhere with my name on it") or Andrew Campbell claimed to even though he was the end of the line on the idle rich Campbell/Dykman family tree. However Henry did live more luxuriously and without financial considerations than you'd expect from even a highly placed city government official. I gather there was other money subsidizing his life. When he left Mayor Lindsey to run for office on his own, finances wasn't even part of the conversation between him and Betty. That's bizarre if Henry didn't have other reserves. 

The whole "Fat Betty was written to make it like Don dodged a bullet because Betty's looks went to seed but Megan was hot" fannish speculation couldn't have been more debunked by how things turned out. Betty lost the weight. Don and Megan's marriage fell apart. The theory was completely proven wrong. As I knew because this theory was very stupid. A lot of Mad Men was unpredictable and suspenseful but I knew putting pounds on Betty to somehow make a judicious life choice out of driving away the mother of your children and then marrying your 20-something secretary was contrary to everything this show was about. I don't even think fans seriously held this theory but I think Betty-fans defensively put out this fake theory to belly ache about their fave looking less hot. 

Lol at Megan's whole "I only wash my face with water" like she wouldn't need soap/makeup remover. She's Fake News. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Melancholy

[Guest]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems somehow significant that Megan seemed to go in the direction of being more made up and glam when others didn't.

I always assumed it was to fit with her Hollywood aspirations.  I thought it made sense for the character.  When she was working for the ad agency before realizing she still wanted to be an actress, she was fashionable, but not dramatically so. When she decided she wanted to be a star, she started dressing more like one with makeup to match.  

As far as Betty's weight gain, I think it was a poor attempt at a storyline that covered JJ's post-pregnancy weight gain, but it overall fell flat and didn't portray what they were going for, so they quickly changed the story.

[Inquisitionist]

43 minutes ago, deaja said:

As far as Betty's weight gain, I think it was a poor attempt at a storyline that covered JJ's post-pregnancy weight gain, but it overall fell flat and didn't portray what they were going for, so they quickly changed the story.

I thought it was her actual pregnancy that they wrote around.  But I never found the storyline realistic or interesting.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I always assumed it was to fit with her Hollywood aspirations.  I thought it made sense for the character.  When she was working for the ad agency before realizing she still wanted to be an actress, she was fashionable, but not dramatically so. When she decided she wanted to be a star, she started dressing more like one with makeup to match.  

Oh, absolutely. I thought it was just right for the character. But it also said something in a meta way. It said something about Megan that this was the choice that she made, the influences that worked on her. That's down to Megan than just Hollywood.

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

A lot of Mad Men was unpredictable and suspenseful but I knew putting pounds on Betty to somehow make a judicious life choice out of driving away the mother of your children and then marrying your 20-something secretary was contrary to everything this show was about. I don't even think fans seriously held this theory but I think Betty-fans defensively put out this fake theory to belly ache about their fave looking less hot. 

I think in the end it really was all about Betty. She faced one of her biggest fears by getting fat and "losing her looks" and Henry was fine with it. Weight watchers was better therapy for her than anything else had been and she did it on her own. The weight gain etc. seemed like a big part of her getting to the place where she was at the end, which was a much better place.

[Dejana]

18 hours ago, deaja said:

I always assumed it was to fit with her Hollywood aspirations.  I thought it made sense for the character.  When she was working for the ad agency before realizing she still wanted to be an actress, she was fashionable, but not dramatically so. When she decided she wanted to be a star, she started dressing more like one with makeup to match.  

As far as Betty's weight gain, I think it was a poor attempt at a storyline that covered JJ's post-pregnancy weight gain, but it overall fell flat and didn't portray what they were going for, so they quickly changed the story.

Shows have written/filmed around pregnancies for decades whether the actress gained a lot of weight or not. In January's case she really didn't. The show could have easily engaged in creative blocking to hide it and viewers who didn't keep up with the actors in real life may never have guessed. 

Maybe Weiner always would have explored Betty coping with the a drastic change in her appearance whether January had gotten pregnant or not. It was really more the timing, as Megan rose to prominence in S5, and the execution--including the dubious makeup job, the flimsy/questionable story behind such a large weight gain (with some other character, maybe, but I always felt like Betty would have hit up a doctor for diet pills once she'd gone up 2 sizes or 20 lbs at the most), and the amazingly subtle sequence where she struggled to squeeze into her paisley dress while Megan's paisley dress zipped like a dream--that propelled the feelings of "Fat Betty" as more plot device than proper character study.

Weiner's choices made more sense to me after seeing how her story ultimately ended: that nodule in Betty's throat had to be a false alarm rather than thyroid cancer, because he'd already planned for her to have lung cancer in S7; her style didn't evolve much after 1965 (and I was so looking forward to seeing her decked out like late-60s Jacqueline Kennedy or Princess Grace!) because she was slated to be pushed out on the ice floe, frozen in time as Birdie.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Dejana

[Dev F]

15 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I think the Francis family had family money. A city political aide does not make a big salary, even if it's an exciting, prestigious position.

I'm not so sure. When we first met Henry he was a top aide to Governor Nelson Rockefeller, the leader of the liberal wing of the Republican Party and one of the wealthiest men in America. When John Lindsay hired him away, it wasn't just to run his mayoral campaign; it was to lock Henry in as campaign manager for a planned presidential run: "Hypothetically, the Congressman is putting together a team with his eye on '72, and, well, it would be built, if it were going to be built, around you. And yes, he doesn't want Rocky to have you either." He was working at a very high level for people with lots and lots of money to throw at him, and he was apparently in a position to play them against each other. So it's not hard for me to believe that he worked for more of his money than he inherited.

Quote

And much smaller, but Mama Francis acts like a woman who had been successful when she was young and therefore has room to lecture Betty/Sally. I would think that meant marrying well.

Maybe, but that could also mean that she married a man who became a success, rather than one whose family was always wealthy. Which would explain why she has more of a middle-class mien, as sistermagpie mentioned. Pauline seems a little too earthy to have charmed her way into high society (particularly with a father who slept on the couch and randomly kicked his kids across the room: "That's for nothing, so look out!"), but I could definitely see her having married a local boy who made good and encouraged the same diligent work ethic in their children.

But I'm probably biased toward that interpretation because Pauline reminds me a great deal of my own grandmother. Her family never rose into wealth, by any means, but they did raise their station significantly. She was the youngest of ten children who moved from the farm to the city when she was about eight years old. She worked as a bookkeeper, and married a very persistent suitor who was a clerk at the local post office. Over the years he rose through the ranks until he became the postmaster, and they raised their kids in much greater comfort than they'd known when they were young. By the time I knew her, she gave off a lot of the same vibes as Henry's mom: outspoken and to-the-point, sometimes knowing and wry, sometimes the chilly disciplinarian. So it's easier for me to imagine that Pauline had a backstory vaguely along those lines than that she grew up in the lap of luxury.

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think in the end it really was all about Betty. She faced one of her biggest fears by getting fat and "losing her looks" and Henry was fine with it. Weight watchers was better therapy for her than anything else had been and she did it on her own. The weight gain etc. seemed like a big part of her getting to the place where she was at the end, which was a much better place.

Yep. The fat!Betty storyline was also an echo of Don's storyline in season 5 -- both stories were about the character giving up on self improvement and settling for a bare form of comfort that ultimately proves stultifying. Though Betty's transformation suffers, perhaps, from being so clearly a wrong turn on her part; while Don must follow a long and winding path before realizing that his exciting new life with his beautiful young wife is not going to make him happy, it's clear from the first frame that being a fat housewife is not Betty's ticket to true contentment.

[Melancholy]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'm not so sure. When we first met Henry he was a top aide to Governor Nelson Rockefeller, the leader of the liberal wing of the Republican Party and one of the wealthiest men in America. When John Lindsay hired him away, it wasn't just to run his mayoral campaign; it was to lock Henry in as campaign manager for a planned presidential run: "Hypothetically, the Congressman is putting together a team with his eye on '72, and, well, it would be built, if it were going to be built, around you. And yes, he doesn't want Rocky to have you either." He was working at a very high level for people with lots and lots of money to throw at him, and he was apparently in a position to play them against each other. So it's not hard for me to believe that he worked for more of his money than he inherited.

Maybe, but that could also mean that she married a man who became a success, rather than one whose family was always wealthy. Which would explain why she has more of a middle-class mien, as sistermagpie mentioned. Pauline seems a little too earthy to have charmed her way into high society (particularly with a father who slept on the couch and randomly kicked his kids across the room: "That's for nothing, so look out!"), but I could definitely see her having married a local boy who made good and encouraged the same diligent work ethic in their children.

But I'm probably biased toward that interpretation because Pauline reminds me a great deal of my own grandmother. Her family never rose into wealth, by any means, but they did raise their station significantly. She was the youngest of ten children who moved from the farm to the city when she was about eight years old. She worked as a bookkeeper, and married a very persistent suitor who was a clerk at the local post office. Over the years he rose through the ranks until he became the postmaster, and they raised their kids in much greater comfort than they'd known when they were young. By the time I knew her, she gave off a lot of the same vibes as Henry's mom: outspoken and to-the-point, sometimes knowing and wry, sometimes the chilly disciplinarian. So it's easier for me to imagine that Pauline had a backstory vaguely along those lines than that she grew up in the lap of luxury.

I don't buy that Henry made more because he was working for wealthy politicians. He was a city employee. New York City paid his salary, not Rockefeller or Lindsey personally. If Rockefeller or Lindsey did personally pay a city employee more, that's an ethics violation and probably illegal even in the early 1960s. I didn't get that read. When John Lindsey's guy was recruiting Henry, it was for unbelievable prestige and power instead of money. 

Of course, it's possible that Pauline married a guy who became a success. Absolutely. I'm not wedded at all to the idea that the Francis money was inter-generational. My only contention is that it seems like there's other reservoirs of money for Henry besides his salary. I think it makes total sense that it's money that Henry's dad first made and passed onto his wife and son. 

[Dev F]

On 8/5/2017 at 8:17 AM, Melancholy said:

I don't buy that Henry made more because he was working for wealthy politicians. He was a city employee. New York City paid his salary, not Rockefeller or Lindsey personally. If Rockefeller or Lindsey did personally pay a city employee more, that's an ethics violation and probably illegal even in the early 1960s.

But when Lindsay hired Henry, it was when he was still a congressman; Henry's job was to get him elected mayor, which would be a political position paid for by his campaign rather than a municipal position paid for by the city. I don't know if we were ever told what Henry's official job was once Lindsay was elected -- in the real world, Lindsay's campaign manager, Bob Price, became deputy mayor -- but I gather that Henry's real job was still to watch out for Lindsay's political future, since the plan all along was for him to manage the mayor's 1972 presidential campaign. In any event, I imagine Henry would've had to take a pay cut when he was technically working for the city, but working for the campaign probably paid pretty well.

Interestingly, according to the obituary I linked, Lindsay's real campaign manager was a self-made man, the Bronx-born son of Jewish immigrants who served in the army and worked his way through law school. Of course, he was also a lawyer and a financier, so I don't know whether he raked it in for his campaign efforts or his other work. Then again, I don't think we were ever told what other work Henry might've done, either.

And the one thing that suggests that maybe Henry isn't completely self-made is the fact that he's not from the Bronx like Bob Price; he's apparently from upscale Westchester County. ("Mount Salem," he says, but that's not a real Upstate location; judging from Henry's other comments, it must be somewhere in the vicinity of the Rockefeller estate and the Ossining reservoir.) So I'm guessing that the most likely explanation is that he's neither old money nor self-made, but part of a family whose rising fortunes took them from an unassuming middle-class existence to a nice life in the tony suburbs to the governor's mansion. Indeed, given that the show makes a point of the fact that Henry grew up in the governor's backyard, perhaps we're meant to think that he was some sort of local success story in business and/or politics who caught Rockefeller's eye.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dev F

[qtpye]

Thi speculation about Henry's background is intetesting and has lead to many great insights.

I just feel that Henry gave Betty the life she always wanted.  She was the beautful wife of an important and powerful man.  They wre once doing a neighborhood tour/pot luck and she was almost beaming because they weresuperior to their neighbors.  Henrry gave her the status she craved.

I always believed that Betty never loved Henry like she loved Don.  However, she was grateful to be taken put of a misrable situation and put into what she considered a better life for her and the kids.

[ivygirl]

On 8/8/2017 at 8:45 PM, Dev F said:

And the one thing that suggests that maybe Henry isn't completely self-made is the fact that he's not from the Bronx like Bob Price; he's apparently from upscale Westchester County. ("Mount Salem," he says, but that's not a real Upstate location; judging from Henry's other comments, it must be somewhere in the vicinity of the Rockefeller estate and the Ossining reservoir.) So I'm guessing that the most likely explanation is that he's neither old money nor self-made, but part of a family whose rising fortunes took them from an unassuming middle-class existence to a nice life in the tony suburbs to the governor's mansion. Indeed, given that the show makes a point of the fact that Henry grew up in the governor's backyard, perhaps we're meant to think that he was some sort of local success story in business and/or politics who caught Rockefeller's eye.

I wonder if Mount Salem is a stand-in for (or fictional version of) Mount Kisco. It's about 20 minutes from both Ossining and Kykuit (in Sleepy Hollow). It's mixed economically with a strong upper-middle-class contingent.

Hmm. There's a *North* Salem in Westchester County... again, about 20 minutes from Mount Kisco but in the opposite direction from Ossining. It has some pricy homes as well.

(Sorry. I'm a little overanytical about this now. And I could be wrong... But I'm a Dyckman descendant and you know how we can get ;)

Edited August 10, 2017 by ivygirl

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I wonder if Mount Salem is a stand-in for (or fictional version of) Mount Kisco. It's about 20 minutes from both Ossining and Kykuit (in Sleepy Hollow). It's mixed economically with a strong upper-middle-class contingent.

 

He's got to be referring to a real place, I think. The show only takes place in the real world. They might create a fake celebrity like Jimmy Barrett but if somebody grew up somewhere or went to some school, it's real. And it's exactly where MW thinks they should come from. :-)

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He's got to be referring to a real place, I think. The show only takes place in the real world. They might create a fake celebrity like Jimmy Barrett but if somebody grew up somewhere or went to some school, it's real. And it's exactly where MW thinks they should come from. :-)

You would think so, but I tried very hard to find a "Mount Salem" that Henry could be referring to -- whether a city or a street or a landmark -- and came up empty. The closest match is an unincorporated township of Mount Salem that's like sixty miles away in New Jersey, and nothing Henry says really makes sense if he actually grew up there:

"I know the area."
"Well, it's practically the governor's backyard."
"That's true, but I grew up there as well."
"Really? Where?"
"Mount Salem."

It doesn't really track for Henry to say that he grew up around Ossining/Tarrytown in the governor's backyard and did jackknives into the reservoir if he actually grew up an hour and a half drive to the west.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Dev F

[ivygirl]

@Dev F I came up empty as well. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

It doesn't really track for Henry to say that he grew up around Ossining/Tarrytown in the governor's backyard and did jackknives into the reservoir if he actually grew up an hour and a half drive to the west.

It seems like it almost must be a mistake on somebody's part like when they had Joan go to 21 before it opened. Like maybe somebody misremembered the name of a place. (Or could the name have changed?) Just because there's no reason for them to make up a fake place for Henry to be from just for this throwaway line to get him in the vicinity of Ossining.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems like it almost must be a mistake on somebody's part like when they had Joan go to 21 before it opened. Like maybe somebody misremembered the name of a place. (Or could the name have changed?) Just because there's no reason for them to make up a fake place for Henry to be from just for this throwaway line to get him in the vicinity of Ossining.

I looked on Google Books for old references to a Mount Salem, New York, and found nothing there either, so it's probably an error. The most probable explanation, I think, is that the writers accidentally mashed up Mount Kisco and North or South Salem. The frustrating thing, though, is that those are super different places. Like ivygirl mentioned, Mount Kisco is one of the most economically mixed areas in Westchester County, while it looks like both North and South Salem are ungodly wealthy. So it's hard to know what "Mount Salem" is supposed to say about Henry's background, if anything.

Speaking of Henry's backstory, I went back to look at "Seven Twenty Three" to double-check the "Mount Salem" conversation, and noticed that behind Henry's desk in his office is a diploma. It's almost readable -- I can make out:

The University of [something starting with an L, two words]
[Something of(?) something] Program
Henry Francis

Here's the cleanest shot I could get of it, if anyone can make out anything else:

[Dev F]

Following up with a new post because I don't know how to edit in text under the image in my last post without potentially screwing everything up . . .

Here's one for the "doing things the hard way" file. While I've been attempting to decipher weird place names and read out-of-focus documents in the background of scenes, I totally forgot that Henry actually gives Betty a fair amount of his background in their bakery meeting in "Seven Twenty Three":

"I don't even know what you do."
"I'm a classic strategist, fundraiser. Maybe campaign manager -- I'm waiting on that."
"And how do you become that? Give a lot of money?"
"(laughs) No, no. I'm a lawyer, but I don't use it much."

It seems like the subtext here is that Betty thinks Henry ascended to a position of power by being rich and donating a lot of money to Rocky, but Henry laughs and says no, I got in through my law practice. I assume by that he means the connections he made when he was practicing law, since he makes it clear that his legal skills are not particularly germane to his current work.

[ivygirl]

I'm mid re-watch and tonight I just happened to start with "Seven Twenty Three," and on to "Souvenir." After the town hall, the other Junior Leaguer (sorry didn't catch name) says to Henry -- Betty said you're from around here. And he answers, "About three miles, that way." 

No idea which "way" he's pointing, but I see no Mount Salem anywhere within 3 miles of either Tarrytown or Ossining. 

It's totally strange that Weiner would feel the need to make up a town for Henry when there are plenty of nearby towns that could easily fit whatever background he wanted Henry to have.

[ivygirl]

Anyone have the dvds and commentary? Wondering if that would shed any light...

[TigerLynx]

I think Betty loved Henry, and she also appreciated that Henry included her in his life.  I'm not sure why they did the fat Betty SL.  The end result though was Betty realized that Henry loved her for more than just her face and body.

I imagine Betty loved Don passionately when they were first married.  That's where all the anger and hate came from even after she left Don and married Henry.  However, Betty also moved on from Don. that's why she got over all her hurt and anger.  It's ironic (at the children's camp) that after years of shutting Betty out of his life, Don wakes up and discovers he's been a one night stand for Betty.  Betty is having breakfast with Henry happily chatting away while Don looks on.

Of course, Don learned nothing.  He told Roger, when Megan decided to try acting again, he didn't want Megan to end up like Betty.  Then he proceeds to cheat on Megan because Don's constant cheating on Betty wasn't what ruined their marriage it was something else?  Really?  What? {Face Palm}

[Melancholy]

On 8/11/2017 at 0:11 AM, Dev F said:

Following up with a new post because I don't know how to edit in text under the image in my last post without potentially screwing everything up . . .

Here's one for the "doing things the hard way" file. While I've been attempting to decipher weird place names and read out-of-focus documents in the background of scenes, I totally forgot that Henry actually gives Betty a fair amount of his background in their bakery meeting in "Seven Twenty Three":

"I don't even know what you do."
"I'm a classic strategist, fundraiser. Maybe campaign manager -- I'm waiting on that."
"And how do you become that? Give a lot of money?"
"(laughs) No, no. I'm a lawyer, but I don't use it much."

It seems like the subtext here is that Betty thinks Henry ascended to a position of power by being rich and donating a lot of money to Rocky, but Henry laughs and says no, I got in through my law practice. I assume by that he means the connections he made when he was practicing law, since he makes it clear that his legal skills are not particularly germane to his current work.

Depends on what's meant by "doing things the hard way." I think that can fit well with my head canon that Henry grew up privileged (even if not fabulously wealthy and even if first generation privileged) and inherited enough money that he had flexility to live wealthy on a city government or local representative salary. From that comment, it doesn't sound like Henry made a fortune as a lawyer. It sounds like he did impress people in the context of being a lawyer. However since he seems like a career politician, I'm inclined to think that he did his impressing at a young age. I'm a young lawyer. I know peers who befriended the right people in law school and showed intelligence, acuity, energy or passion (not necessarily all good traits but at least one ;-)) to focus on helping with campaigns in college and law school. Now, they're late 20-somethings set up for a life in politics. The modern revolving door between politics and money that we all recognize really started in the 1960s but I know people who spent like 1-2 years working for government or on a campaign out of law school and now they're consultants at a bank or politically focused associates at a large law firm with plans to eventually use their money and greater connections to re-enter politics on an even higher level with more security. I also know people who have become professional politicians at a young age and they're either living on a low salary or they're helped by their parents. Henry seems too "life long politico" and into disavowing what he does as a lawyer to make me think he earned a fortune out of politics. To me, it sounds like he's a lawyer but he didn't have to really practice very long or intensely until he impressed the right politicians and began his true career. Since I'm still left with the question on how he can afford a mansion or to make all of his career choices purely based on passion without money even brought up as part of the decision, I think there's a family money cushion on some kind.  

17 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I think Betty loved Henry, and she also appreciated that Henry included her in his life.  I'm not sure why they did the fat Betty SL.  The end result though was Betty realized that Henry loved her for more than just her face and body.

I imagine Betty loved Don passionately when they were first married.  That's where all the anger and hate came from even after she left Don and married Henry.  However, Betty also moved on from Don. that's why she got over all her hurt and anger.  It's ironic (at the children's camp) that after years of shutting Betty out of his life, Don wakes up and discovers he's been a one night stand for Betty.  Betty is having breakfast with Henry happily chatting away while Don looks on.

Of course, Don learned nothing.  He told Roger, when Megan decided to try acting again, he didn't want Megan to end up like Betty.  Then he proceeds to cheat on Megan because Don's constant cheating on Betty wasn't what ruined their marriage it was something else?  Really?  What? {Face Palm}

 

It's not about Don "not learning." Don was quite aware that his infidelity was one of the things that sunk his marriage with Betty. He does displace and disassociate blame but he consistently puts infidelity as the thing that sinks a marriage in S5. Refusing Andrea's advances in his dream and "You're not going to ruin this." Telling Pete that having sex with prostitutes will ruin his marriage and family. His whole S5 of being faithful to Megan. Don starts cheating again because he gave up on his marriage with Megan. Megan's whole "If you don't give me special treatment in this commercial, than sex is the only thing I'm good for" is a bald-faced admission that this isn't a real marriage to her either. Don has fits and starts of trying to recommit to his marriage in S6-7 but I don't they were truly about Don genuinely wanting to be married to Megan, herself. They were about Don trying to avoid the stain and failure of being twice-divorced and divorced from someone that he thought was a perfect woman for him a short time ago. But Don increasingly didn't want to be married to Megan and that feeling was finalized in The Phantom. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Since I'm still left with the question on how he can afford a mansion or to make all of his career choices purely based on passion without money even brought up as part of the decision, I think there's a family money cushion on some kind.  

Also, I honesty think that if it was part of Henry's background that he was really self-made in terms of coming up from difficult circumstances, we'd see some evidence. Betty would recognize it, there would be little ways he behaved where it would come out just because class was always present on the show. Even when Henry tells Betty not to get support from Don he seems to be speaking purely from a position of honor rather than having insecurity about money. (That is, he doesn't seem to feel the need to prove he's got money to support Betty, he just can do it and thinks it's better not to have the ex-husband's money something they depend on.)

So yeah, to me Henry seems like somebody who grew up always knowing that he could be a lawyer. He's not super rich, not flashy, quite possibly his family was poor a generation or two earlier. But he doesn't seem like somebody who's ever been driven by the kind of hunger Don has.

5 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Don starts cheating again because he gave up on his marriage with Megan. 

Yes, that seems really explicit to me. He *knows* that cheating means whatever he has with Megan is gone. It's not the only thing he's trying to do differently with Megan, but he does seem to get that the cheating is on him (except for times he's so desperately in denial he wants to think that being married to the right woman will save him.) Once Megan proves that she's not going to give him what he thinks he needs, he almost, imo, feels doomed to go back to his old patterns. That first sequence in S6 was kind of amazing--iirc, it's Megan chattering on for many minutes while Don seems to be just looking at her like "What am I doing here?")

it's such a contrast to even other relationships that are breaking that season. Betty and Abe and Pete and Trudy also wind up splitting up (even if it's not forever for the Campbells) but their conflicts are between people who are connected to each other and the argument. Don seems completely disconnected from Megan. Betty understands it completely.

[TigerLynx]

If Don had given up on his marriage to Megan, he should have ended it.  I don't get the whole, "I don't want to be divorced for a second time so I'll just cheat on my current wife," that's just dumb even for someone as disconnected as Don.  Although Megan stepped on my last nerve as well with her, "You don't owe me anything Don/Thanks for ruining my life" flip flopping.

I thought Henry came from money to.  He's a more responsible and mature person than Roger or Pete, but he seems to have money, connections, no problem affording anything he and Betty want, was able and willing to support Betty's three children, and could easily buy an expensive house in an upscale neighborhood.

[ivygirl]

4 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

If Don had given up on his marriage to Megan, he should have ended it.  I don't get the whole, "I don't want to be divorced for a second time so I'll just cheat on my current wife," that's just dumb even for someone as disconnected as Don.  Although Megan stepped on my last nerve as well with her, "You don't owe me anything Don/Thanks for ruining my life" flip flopping.

In "real life" I totally agree. And with the Megan stuff, I 110% agree. LOL

But I wonder if, to Don, he'd see another divorce as conformation that he'd failed once again... that he really is doomed to relational failure and can't be redeemed. So why not just repeat the past bad behavior without ruining yet another relationship he wanted to take seriously. (That's how I took it at the time.) Because he didn't really want to divorce Betty, either. And clearly there, his conscience wasn't stung yet regarding infidelity... at least from what we could see (he was literally in the process of running away on a vacation with another woman, but put the blame on Betty for the divorce*!).

Also, not that Don was one for convention, but I think that being twice divorced would be frowned upon back then, and maybe that would have been a factor as well. Because clearly infidelity wasn't frowned upon in his circles... so in that sense he'd lose less face cheating than he would divorcing again. (Also, voiced from his past may have rung in his ear.)

It was pretty typical in the Mad Men world that the men didn't want to cheat on their second wives, at least at first. Roger was the same way when he'd first married (bleh) Jane. 

 

* Technically she had been/was being unfaithful but she hadn't *lied about her true identity*. Sure she wanted to run off with another man, but if Don had truly given her everything she wanted--i.e. a stable home--I doubt Henry would have had any pull.

[TigerLynx]

I agree Betty would never have wanted to divorce Don if he hadn't been such a jackass to her, but when it comes to Henry I believe 1) Betty was done with Don even if she hadn't exactly figured out a game plan yet, and 2) there was something about Henry that drew Betty to him.  There were a couple of times when Betty saw Henry when she would get so sparkly and happy.  Other men had told Betty she was attractive, etc., and while she enjoyed the compliments, she didn't react to them the way she did Henry.

Betty and Henry hit a few rough patches, but they worked through them and stayed together.  With Don and Megan I could never decide who annoyed me more.  Don and his force feeding sherbert fetish, or Megan's I want to be an actress get me that commercial wah wah wah crap.

Roger and Marie ended being one of my favorite couples when the show ended.  Even when Roger and Marie were arguing, she was speaking French, and Roger couldn't understand what she was saying, they had better communication than Don and Megan did.

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Roger and Marie ended being one of my favorite couples when the show ended.  Even when Roger and Marie were arguing, she was speaking French, and Roger couldn't understand what she was saying, they had better communication than Don and Megan did.

In the end it seemed like the thing that made all the couples potentially okay was they knew who they were really with. Megan and Don both seemed to be people who liked their imaginary idea of how things would be more than the actual thing. They both put a lot of effort into keeping that fantasy alive for a while but I think in the end they were always doomed because the things they learned about the other person were always a flaw rather than something that made them more intimate. Peggy and Stan, by contrast, knew each other well. And once Pete and Trudy had discarded their fantasy ideas of marriage and each other they had a better relationship rather than a worse one. Marie had Roger's number and Roger chose her for it. Like he'd actually noticed that the women he really enjoyed in his life were Joan and Mona, who also did.

Don almost didn't know how to do that. At least not with romantic partners.

[film noire]

I don't think Betty was ever done with Don; she made a last minute bid to keep him with her (in the kitchen, handing over the keys after the house was sold) and he rejected the idea.  (That's the source of her lingering rage,  imo. She kicked him out, but then offered him a way back in, and he chose a younger woman - and then  gave that woman the lifestyle Betty had yearned for -- a penthouse, parties and a career in front of a camera).  I think Henry was Betty's lifeboat, and Megan was Don's hoped-for proof that happiness could be found with the right woman (instead of him having to deal with himself).  

And -- despite the sickness of their relationship -- Don and Betty always felt the most "coupled" to me on the show. Perhaps because Betty knew (and cared about knowing) who Don really was, or because of the kids -- or just their insane chemistry -- but they felt very married and bonded to each other, more than she ever did with Henry (or certainly Don with Megan). 

[TigerLynx]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

In the end it seemed like the thing that made all the couples potentially okay was they knew who they were really with. Megan and Don both seemed to be people who liked their imaginary idea of how things would be more than the actual thing. They both put a lot of effort into keeping that fantasy alive for a while but I think in the end they were always doomed because the things they learned about the other person were always a flaw rather than something that made them more intimate. Peggy and Stan, by contrast, knew each other well. And once Pete and Trudy had discarded their fantasy ideas of marriage and each other they had a better relationship rather than a worse one. Marie had Roger's number and Roger chose her for it. Like he'd actually noticed that the women he really enjoyed in his life were Joan and Mona, who also did.

Don almost didn't know how to do that. At least not with romantic partners.

I thought Pete and Trudy were over, but then they surprised me by admitting they still loved each other and wanted to give their relationship another chance.  There wasn't a bunch of blaming, finger pointing, or this is all your fault claims.  They just acknowledged they had made mistakes, and wanted to try again.

I liked Peggy's slow realization she had feelings for Stan.  The look on Stan's face when Peggy first says she's never really thought about him in that way, so clearly says he knows that, and then Peggy keeps rambling on about how she does care about Stan not knowing Stan's no longer on the other end of the phone line until he appears in her office.

3 hours ago, film noire said:

I don't think Betty was ever done with Don; she made a last minute bid to keep him with her (in the kitchen, handing over the keys after the house was sold) and he rejected the idea.  (That's the source of her lingering rage,  imo. She kicked him out, but then offered him a way back in, and he chose a younger woman - and then  gave that woman the lifestyle Betty had yearned for -- a penthouse, parties and a career in front of a camera).  I think Henry was Betty's lifeboat, and Megan was Don's hoped-for proof that happiness could be found with the right woman (instead of him having to deal with himself).  

And -- despite the sickness of their relationship -- Don and Betty always felt the most "coupled" to me on the show. Perhaps because Betty knew (and cared about knowing) who Don really was, or because of the kids -- or just their insane chemistry -- but they felt very married and bonded to each other, more than she ever did with Henry (or certainly Don with Megan). 

Betty never asked Don to get back together.  Don had no problem cheating on his new young wife Megan with younger or older women so Betty got the better deal with Henry.

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Betty never asked Don to get back together.  Don had no problem cheating on his new young wife Megan with younger or older women so Betty got the better deal with Henry.

I think that scene in the kitchen was more about Betty panicking over her choices rather than really thinking she wanted Don back. A little buyer’s remorse rather than a real realization that she really wanted Don. Henry didn’t ix her problems, but ultimately he was a good choice.

I think in some ways Betty never let go of Don completely since he was her first love, and he was a grand romance. As she admitted to him, when she saw him she would think “Who’s that man?” in an intrigued way before she remembered oh yeah, that. They really did have a deep connection.

[film noire]

45 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

 

Betty never asked Don to get back together. 

 In the second to last scene in Tomorrowland, we see Betty standing alone in her soon-to-be-sold kitchen, carefully checking her make-up in a compact.  She stands at the island, waiting for a while, and then we hear Don arrive, calling for the realtor. Betty scrambles to pick up moving box --  so she looks like she came by to pick something up -- and Don is surprised to find her there. She does a bad job of covering up why she's there -- some excuse about forgetting to get everything -- and he finds a bottle of booze, they toast, and after a bit of chit chat, Betty leans in and talks about how "difficult" everything is now, how it's not what she expected, it's harder -- and Don cuts off that line of conversation by telling her he's met someone and is engaged.  Weiner gives us all the signals that Betty is willing to jump back to Don in that scene -- whether out of revenge against Henry, or longing for Don, or some combination of both, she's sending come hither signals. And that scene comes on the heels of a bitter fight with Henry (where he expresses  anger over Betty firing Carla, and near contempt for Betty because she won't write a rec for a woman who worked for her for twelve years). In that fight scene she says she's entitled to a fresh start, and I always thought -- since Henry spoke to her with the same anger Don had always spoken to her -- that Betty thought: fuck this, if there's no fresh start,  if I'm just going to get yelled at and criticized and contradicted by a man, why not Don? 

Edited August 13, 2017 by film noire

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that scene in the kitchen was more about Betty panicking over her choices rather than really thinking she wanted Don back. A little buyer’s remorse rather than a real realization that she really wanted Don. Henry didn’t ix her problems, but ultimately he was a good choice.

I think in some ways Betty never let go of Don completely since he was her first love, and he was a grand romance. As she admitted to him, when she saw him she would think “Who’s that man?” in an intrigued way before she remembered oh yeah, that. They really did have a deep connection.

I believe Betty loved the Don she thought she was marrying, but he didn't exist.  Unlike Don and Megan, Betty let go of the fantasy, and learned to appreciate the much happier reality she had with Henry.  Betty said as much to Don when they had their one night stand at the children's camp, and the next morning Don wakes up alone.

1 hour ago, film noire said:

 In the second to last scene in Tomorrowland, we see Betty standing alone in her soon-to-be-sold kitchen, carefully checking her make-up in a compact.  She stands at the island, waiting for a while, and then we hear Don arrive, calling for the realtor. Betty scrambles to pick up moving box --  so she looks like she came by to pick something up -- and Don is surprised to find her there. She does a bad job of covering up why she's there -- some excuse about forgetting to get everything -- and he finds a bottle of booze, they toast, and after a bit of chit chat, Betty leans in and talks about how "difficult" everything is now, how it's not what she expected, it's harder -- and Don cuts off that line of conversation by telling her he's met someone and is engaged.  Weiner gives us all the signals that Betty is willing to jump back to Don in that scene -- whether out of revenge against Henry, or longing for Don, or some combination of both, she's sending come hither signals. And that scene comes on the heels of a bitter fight with Henry (where he expresses  anger over Betty firing Carla, and near contempt for Betty because she won't write a rec for a woman who worked for her for twelve years). In that fight scene she says she's entitled to a fresh start, and I always thought -- since Henry spoke to her with the same anger Don had always spoken to her -- that Betty thought: fuck this, if there's no fresh start,  if I'm just going to get yelled at and criticized and contradicted by a man, why not Don? 

You saw that scene completely different than I did.  I saw it more as Betty realizing nothing was always easy and perfect, but I didn't see any longing to get back together with Don.  Betty might have resented that it looked like Don included Megan in his life in a way he never did Betty, but that was pretty quickly revealed to be a façade.  Don and Megan started to implode in less than a year's time.

[Melancholy]

I agree with @film noire that Betty was entertaining the idea of starting something up with Don in Tommorowland until there was almost an audible record scratch after Don said he was getting married.

 I also disagree that Betty just loved the fantasy of Don that she thought she was marrying. That kind of fantasy drew her in. But Betty showed acts of love to the Don who was emotionally crippled by abuse, who came off as desperate, who had high blood pressure at a young age, who reached out on her pregnancy with Gene in an uneasy peace, who couldn't afford a summer house, who she knew had to do Indian trading to get the fur coat. It wasn't an issue that Betty couldn't love a Don As Advertised. It's that he mistreated her and she found that untenable to having a happy, secure life. Betty wasn't a Megan who flipped out when Don did anything but be a wallet with nothing but fascination and admiration for anything Megan did (with one exception for The Crash which was the only time where Megan struck me as a supportive wife who cared about Don even when it was hard).

Edited August 14, 2017 by Melancholy

[TigerLynx]

Betty loved Don, and she didn't care that Don didn't come from a wealthy family.  However, when she married Don, Betty thought she was going to have a loving marriage.  She didn't expect Don to constantly cheat on her, slut shame her, shut her out of his life, bail on her children's birthdays, etc.  The loving husband Betty believed she was getting when she married Don never existed.

[Melancholy]

Right, the way Don mistreated Betty made staying married to him untenable. But it's important to emphasize that Betty didn't only love Don's first impression. You said Betty only loved the man she thought she was marrying but he didn't exist. I argue that Betty also loved the fucked up Don that did exist and continued to do so to the end of the series. She just didn't want to be married to a fucked up guy. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

Yes, I think the revelation of who Don really was is more like a "last straw" for Betty. Not necessarily just because he came with a lot of shockingly tawdry baggage (she never would have guessed the guy's mother was a prostitute, for instance) but because it shows just how much he withheld himself from her. And she finds this out after he's made her feel terrible, which is going to color how she reacts to the information.

[TigerLynx]

Betty married Don because she believed they were in love, and Don wanted a life with her.  That wasn't true.  It doesn't matter what name Don was going by, or that Don didn't tell Betty everything about his past.  Betty loved Don, and Don treated Betty like crap.  The Don Betty thought loved her never existed.  He was an illusion.  Not only did Don cheat on Betty over and over and over again, he considered abandoning Betty and his children at least twice.  He constantly bailed on family activities claiming he had to work when in reality he was out screwing around.  That wasn't the man Betty believed she was marrying.  Betty had her flaws, but when it comes to Don, Betty was a friggin saint for putting up with the selfish jackass for as long as she did.

[film noire]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I agree with @film noire that Betty was entertaining the idea of starting something up with Don in Tommorowland until there was almost an audible record scratch after Don said he was getting married.

Ha -- that's a perfect way to describe it -- she's looking up at him, all doe -eyed and then: scratch.

And that moment is set up so beautifully by the beginning of that scene;  Betty touching up her make-up in her compact, looking drop dead gorgeous -- that jewel-toned coat in the darkened kitchen, her blonde hair almost gold in the drab light -- and then standing, waiting, as she's waited for Don a million times in that room. She looks pristine and perfect, but also like she's waiting for a starter gun.  And then she hears him and she grabs at the box, so it looks like she just got there.  (Who, me? Oh was this the day?) From make-up to props, she's given this moment the full Betty Draper treatment; nothing has been left to chance. Except -- as always -- Don. 

Quote

 I argue that Betty also loved the fucked up Don that did exist and continued to do so to the end of the series. She just didn't want to be married to a fucked up guy. 

I agree -- and I think the moment that absolutely nails that bond comes at end of their final phonecall (starting 2:04). It's done in only three words:

Don: Birdy--

Betty: I know.

 

So beautiful  -- and messy and fucked up and heartbreaking -- it always felt like Betty knew Henry would never cause her that kind of emotion, while Don never truly stopped. He was her wheel.

[sistermagpie]

36 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Betty married Don because she believed they were in love, and Don wanted a life with her.  That wasn't true.  It doesn't matter what name Don was going by, or that Don didn't tell Betty everything about his past.  Betty loved Don, and Don treated Betty like crap.  The Don Betty thought loved her never existed.  He was an illusion.

I would amend that a little--I think Don did love Betty and did want a life with her. That guy existed as much as the happy girl he described Betty as being. By the time we meet them they've been married for years and Don's fallen into his cheating pattern, but I don't think he married her planning to do that. Megan basically goes through the same thing at a faster clip. One of the things that makes Don so dangerous is that he's such a great salesman because he believes what he's selling a lot of the time.

Edited August 14, 2017 by sistermagpie