Mad Men - General Discussion

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I just cannot see Don raising his sons on a daily basis.  He just is not capable of handling all of the work that goes into taking care of kids.  There is only so much a nanny can do.  Betty is right about him and what the boys need.  As annoying as her brother was during the show, Betty made the right call.  The best that could happen is Don takes an active interest in the boys.  That he takes them on extended vacations and bonds with them before dropping them off back into a home where someone is taking care of all the minutia.  That is where Don is his best with his kids.  

I think Betty said it all when she asked Don when was the last time he saw his sons during their last conversation.  I mean, hell, he was calling her from his trek to nowhere after walking out on his job, chasing some woman he barely knew across the country and with no real plan to return.  He is not a stable person, and would not make for a good single parent.  Don is a weekend dad.  It's nothing a child would hope for, but it's probably the best they will get with him.   

[LydiaE]

Not to mention, Don was a hopeless drunk and pretty naive about who he let into his life, especially when inebriated.  

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Old Man Neil said:

But the Mohawk Meredith incident didn't happen until Season 5 and there were extenuating circumstances. I remember she came down pretty hard on the secretary who sent her the flowers intended for Lane's wife in The Good News but wasn't that deserved? As for Scarlet, she needed reprimanding. 

In the early seasons, I remember her counselling Peggy to be nice to the switchboard operators, and trying to give good advice to Peggy in general, even if it was a bit snarky. She and Jane exchanged words, but Jane started it. 

Of course, you are right about the department store sales person. 

You make it sound like she sucks up to the guys and their wives. I don't see anything other than charming professionalism. 

It's not an extenuating circumstance to be having a bad day.  Yes, she was blindsided by the divorce papers, but when you're a professional and especially a supervisor, you don't get the luxury of throwing and breaking something on your employees' desk when she didn't really do anything wrong. Similar to when Don threw the money at Peggy - he was upset, but that's not how your treat someone who works for you.

Lane's secretary deserved to be fired, but to demean her and put her down as she did was unprofessional.

Even in Season 7 in the elevator with Peggy, she ragged on Peggy for her choices. 

She just consistently seemed to think all the women were beneath her and put them down if she was upset or having a bad day.  It would be one thing if she was their peer, but they were in circumstances where she held the power.  

[Old Man Neil]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

She just consistently seemed to think all the women were beneath her and put them down if she was upset or having a bad day.  It would be one thing if she was their peer, but they were in circumstances where she held the power.  

I don't know. You cited a couple of exceptions. The rule seemed to be that she was well liked by the secretarial staff. 

[Ohiopirate02]

29 minutes ago, Old Man Neil said:

I don't know. You cited a couple of exceptions. The rule seemed to be that she was well liked by the secretarial staff. 

I always got the impression that the rest of the secretaries were afraid of Joan.  But, she was extremely competent, and the firm(s) succeeded because she ran a tight ship.  Yes, the office manager is always everyone's least favorite person.  Someone has to make sure the contracts get signed, checks come in, they get deposited, payroll is completed in a timely manner, rent and other bills get paid, etc.  It's not like Roger or Don was going to make sure those details were taken care of.  And Bert, he was just killing time in the office when the show started.  Joan is the competent adult at the wheel throughout the series.  We don't begin to see a softer side of her until Lane appears because there is finally someone in the office to help shoulder her burden.  

That being said, Joan is still a bitch.  And so is my queen Betty Hoffstadt Draper Francis.  These are complex characters.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

That being said, Joan is still a bitch.  And so is my queen Betty Hoffstadt Draper Francis.  These are complex characters.

Yeah, I was going to say I think she's complicated. I think as a manager--since she is the manager of the secretarial staff--Joan is appreciated because she's pretty fair when it comes to managing the staff and does have their interests at heart. The secretaries that like her least are often angling for something, specifically Scarlet when she's getting special treatment from Harry and Jane when she's competing with her. She is trying to be nice to Peggy when she shows up and her criticisms of her weight gain, for instance, don't come across to me as intentionally cruel or catty. Her roommate seemed to suggest she was someone women wanted to be friends with, and she does have that friend from college as well. She's not a "I just don't get along with other women" woman.

That said, I do still understand the feeling that she looks down on people because Joan does seem to see a clear hierarchy in the world and gives people the respect she thinks they deserve within it. She is sensitive to losing her position on top and can certainly be catty when it's threatened. Remember that nasty racist comment to innocent Sheila since Paul was her ex, for instance.

So basically yeah, I think she can be a bitch and is probably genuinely considered so by some people, especially when they step outside what she thinks is correct behavior. But she wouldn't be as good at her manager job as she is if feeling superior was the priority for her. I suspect she often makes people feel belittled without making much of an effort. Like I said, she clearly thinks there's a clear hierarchy in the world and I'm sure she effortlessly makes people feel where she thinks their place in it. Imagine, for instance, how her relationship with Peggy might have come across if Peggy wasn't, well, Peggy. If she was a sensitive, more vulnerable person Joan told to go get on birth control and sleep with men in the office while they wanted to sleep with her for the novelty of it and asked her where Don was and then said "you shouldn't have told me that." She might have come across as a bully, and it's unclear whether she would adjust to suit somebody like that. (She devastated her roommate.)

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She is trying to be nice to Peggy when she shows up and her criticisms of her weight gain, for instance, don't come across to me as intentionally cruel or catty.

I think Peggy had it right when she came to the realization that Joan said the things she did because she honestly believed she was being helpful. 

[Ohiopirate02]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Peggy had it right when she came to the realization that Joan said the things she did because she honestly believed she was being helpful. 

In Joan's mind she was being helpful with her comments and suggestion back in 1960.  Joan at that point in her life could not comprehend a woman like Peggy who wanted a career instead of a husband.  In Joan's mind all young women were just like her--working to fund her city lifestyle, having fun with different men, but ultimately looking for the right guy to marry.  It is not until Joan leaves to get married and has to take that lower paying job at the department store that she realizes she also finds satisfaction in working.  

[Umbelina]

I never saw Joan be harsh with the secretaries.  The couple of times she was, it was completely in her role as their manager.  Roger's secretary-soon-to-be-wife with her bra showing was told to cover up.  Scarlett falsified time records, took the afternoon off and expected to be paid for it.  I think she told one random not to cry in the break room, something she made clear to all when they were hired.

Oh, and she flipped out when served with divorce papers but that was a human response, and she regretted it, and mentioned to Don she would apologize.  

What am I missing?  She ran a tight ship, with rules clearly defined.  I wouldn't have minded working for her, and like Dawn?  I would want her respect.

 

[Dejana]

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I never saw Joan be harsh with the secretaries.  The couple of times she was, it was completely in her role as their manager.  Roger's secretary-soon-to-be-wife with her bra showing was told to cover up.  Scarlett falsified time records, took the afternoon off and expected to be paid for it.  I think she told one random not to cry in the break room, something she made clear to all when they were hired.

Oh, and she flipped out when served with divorce papers but that was a human response, and she regretted it, and mentioned to Don she would apologize.  

What am I missing?  She ran a tight ship, with rules clearly defined.  I wouldn't have minded working for her, and like Dawn?  I would want her respect.

 

Joan would send the newbie secretaries off for a gynecological exam on their first day of the job and arranged for them to be put on hormonal birth control. Sure, she wasn't physically forcing The Pill down their throats and in her own way, she was looking out for them and the firm, but that's crossing a line or ten. I wasn't around in 1960, but I don't think that was anywhere close to standard job practice even back then. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Dejana

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, Dejana said:

Joan would send the newbie secretaries off for a gynecological exam on their first day of the job and arranged for them to be put on hormonal birth control. Sure, she wasn't physically forcing The Pill down their throats and in her own way, she was looking out for them and the firm, but that's crossing a line or ten. I wasn't around in 1960, but I don't think that was anywhere close to standard job practice even back then. 

I got the impression she did that with Peggy because it was Peggy, and Peggy needed it.  I couldn't see her doing that with Jane.  No comment on whether she did that with Miss Blankenship.   

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I got the impression she did that with Peggy because it was Peggy, and Peggy needed it.  I couldn't see her doing that with Jane.  No comment on whether she did that with Miss Blankenship.   

I think that's what Dejana meant, though. She wouldn't do it with Jane because Jane was already doing everything Joan thought Peggy should be doing. (Blankenship was a hellcat long before Joan's time!).

[Dejana]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that's what Dejana meant, though. She wouldn't do it with Jane because Jane was already doing everything Joan thought Peggy should be doing. (Blankenship was a hellcat long before Joan's time!).

There's no way to know, but I don’t think Peggy was the only secretary Joan ever sent along to that OB/GYN for birth control, or it was an unusual step. Even if a new secretary was pretty and fashionable, it doesn't mean she'd know a lot about reliable birth control or would automatically obtain it for herself. The Pill was pretty new in 1960 and not all doctors would have prescribed it to unmarried women. Who knows, Joan might have been making appointments for many of the staff around the time Peggy started working. 

 

I think Miss Blankenship was working for Sterling Cooper before Joan was even born! She was probably not giving Ida any directives about her personal life.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Dejana

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Dejana said:

There's no way to know, but I don’t think Peggy was the only secretary Joan ever sent along to that OB/GYN for birth control, or it was an unusual step. Even if a new secretary was pretty and fashionable, it doesn't mean she'd know a lot about reliable birth control or would automatically obtain it for herself. The Pill was pretty new in 1960 and not all doctors would have prescribed it to unmarried women. Who knows, Joan might have been making recommendations for many of the staff around the time Peggy started working.

 

I think Miss Blankenship was working for Sterling Cooper before Joan was even born! She was probably not giving Ida any directives about her personal life.

Oh, I agree! I meant that I don't think there was anything special about Peggy that would make Joan single her alone out for that treatment. I assume that Joan acted similarly with a lot of new secretaries. The gynecologist seemed to behave like she sent girls over before. Joan probably assessed each new girl and decided what kind of advice each one needed and how to approach them if she wasn't sure.

But that's also why I think Joan might have come across very differently if Peggy was a different character. Even Peggy herself took several episodes to suddenly realize that Joan was trying to help her when Joan criticized things about her appearance. And her encouraging girls to attract the men in the office could have come across like her throwing fresh meat to the lions with the wrong newbie.

[txhorns79]

11 hours ago, Dejana said:

 

I think Miss Blankenship was working for Sterling Cooper before Joan was even born! She was probably not giving Ida any directives about her personal life.

I should have been more clear.  I meant the comment about Miss Blankenship as a joke. 

 

11 hours ago, Dejana said:

There's no way to know, but I don’t think Peggy was the only secretary Joan ever sent along to that OB/GYN for birth control, or it was an unusual step. Even if a new secretary was pretty and fashionable, it doesn't mean she'd know a lot about reliable birth control or would automatically obtain it for herself. The Pill was pretty new in 1960 and not all doctors would have prescribed it to unmarried women. Who knows, Joan might have been making appointments for many of the staff around the time Peggy started working.

I'm sure Joan probably took other secretaries as well.  I'm sure it depended on how they presented to her.  Someone like Jane gives off a more sophisticated vibe, while early Peggy did not. 

[Umbelina]

Random comment.  

In the final season of the show, when Don is in blue jeans, probably that whole Salt Flats racing thing?  His hair was a mess and he looks camera left, and it didn't even look like Don to me.  He looked like Kyle MacLachlan, as in, he could have been his twin brother.  

There was another time when John Hamm was angry/melting down, probably the scene when he grabs Betty and calls her a whore.  In that scene he looked so evil/frightening/dangerous and he also looked more like another actor, some jowly angry dramatic actor, and I can't think of who it is.

For a handsome man, he had quite a few different "looks" at certain times in the show, a malleable face.  

[caitmcg]

16 hours ago, Dejana said:

There's no way to know, but I don’t think Peggy was the only secretary Joan ever sent along to that OB/GYN for birth control, or it was an unusual step. Even if a new secretary was pretty and fashionable, it doesn't mean she'd know a lot about reliable birth control or would automatically obtain it for herself. The Pill was pretty new in 1960 and not all doctors would have prescribed it to unmarried women. Who knows, Joan might have been making appointments for many of the staff around the time Peggy started working. 

 

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I agree! I meant that I don't think there was anything special about Peggy that would make Joan single her alone out for that treatment. I assume that Joan acted similarly with a lot of new secretaries. The gynecologist seemed to behave like she sent girls over before. Joan probably assessed each new girl and decided what kind of advice each one needed and how to approach them if she wasn't sure.

But that's also why I think Joan might have come across very differently if Peggy was a different character. Even Peggy herself took several episodes to suddenly realize that Joan was trying to help her when Joan criticized things about her appearance. And her encouraging girls to attract the men in the office could have come across like her throwing fresh meat to the lions with the wrong newbie.

All of it, of course, was based on Joan's own experience in navigating the world as a secretary seeking her fortune in the form of a man, and if she played it right a husband (in theory, anyway), including making sure the girls wouldn’t have to do as she did and seek abortions. But the way she doled out her advice, in a stern, instructional way, would absolutely come off in different ways to different personalities.

In a way, her assessment of Peggy that first day was right on, in that Peggy was, if not entirely naive, certainly inexperienced (not just about sex, but in life), but also eager to change that. That saiid, it’s hard to know whether she would’ve been quite so quick to accept Pete's proposition had she not felt empowered by Joan's essentially saying “I’m preparing you for the casual sex you’ll be having.”

16 hours ago, Dejana said:

The Pill was pretty new in 1960 and not all doctors would have prescribed it to unmarried women.

The pill was very new, and definitely not officially or routinely available to unmarried women. Even in the mid ‘60s this was the case. (My mother has told me that when my parents had been together for a while but were not yet married, she put a ring on when she went to Planned Parenthood in 1964, because she knew they might not prescribe it if she were unmarried.) But clearly, someone like Joan knew where to find a doctor who would meet those needs, even if he wouldn’t do it without accompanying judgmental and  paternalistic admonitions.

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

That saiid, it’s hard to know whether she would’ve been quite so quick to accept Pete's proposition had she not felt empowered by Joan's essentially saying “I’m preparing you for the casual sex you’ll be having.”

Too bad she didn't prepare her enough by saying, "Btw, this pill doesn't start working the minute you take one." Seems the doctor didn't think to say that either!

[Dejana]

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I agree! I meant that I don't think there was anything special about Peggy that would make Joan single her alone out for that treatment. I assume that Joan acted similarly with a lot of new secretaries. The gynecologist seemed to behave like she sent girls over before. Joan probably assessed each new girl and decided what kind of advice each one needed and how to approach them if she wasn't sure.

But that's also why I think Joan might have come across very differently if Peggy was a different character. Even Peggy herself took several episodes to suddenly realize that Joan was trying to help her when Joan criticized things about her appearance. And her encouraging girls to attract the men in the office could have come across like her throwing fresh meat to the lions with the wrong newbie.

Joan apparently decided that Peggy was a virgin, and that's why she wasn't taking her advice about dressing better and cozying up to the men. The story with Peggy was written in a certain way, but there's a scenario where the new girl balks at the general climate of Sterling Cooper, being told to go along with it and sent to the gynecologist on her first day, and quits after a week or two. Not that wonen at the time would have had a name for sexual harassment, necessarily, but might have viewed a department store or telephone company as a bit less of a frat house, especially in a world where everyone thought they'd only work until marriage and babies came along. There was probably so much crying in the SC ladies room because it wasn't a great work environment for women.

 

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I should have been more clear.  I meant the comment about Miss Blankenship as a joke. 

 

I'm sure Joan probably took other secretaries as well.  I'm sure it depended on how they presented to her.  Someone like Jane gives off a more sophisticated vibe, while early Peggy did not. 

 

57 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

 

The pill was very new, and definitely not officially or routinely available to unmarried women. Even in the mid ‘60s this was the case. (My mother has told me that when my parents had been together for a while but were not yet married, she put a ring on when she went to Planned Parenthood in 1964, because she knew they might not prescribe it if she were unmarried.) But clearly, someone like Joan knew where to find a doctor who would meet those needs, even if he wouldn’t do it without accompanying judgmental and  paternalistic admonitions.

Obtaining birth control back then was a matter of access as much as interest in doing so. Young women would have talked among themselves, maybe, but that doesn't mean everyone would've had a ready connection like Joan did. 

I wonder when Joan quit sending the new girls to her doctor friend. Maybe at the switch to SCDP? I can't imagine how that creep would have talked to Dawn.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Dejana

[txhorns79]

Quote

I wonder when Joan quit sending the new girls to her doctor friend. Maybe at the switch to SCDP? I can't imagine how that creep would have talked to Dawn.

I feel certain in saying Joan would never have sent Dawn to the doctor.  I think Joan would not have felt comfortable doing that with Dawn.  Think back to the most awkward hug in the world between those two:

Besides, Dawn thought the women at church were harlots.  I can't even imagine what her response would have been to being sent to the doctor for birth control.  I think she would have been extremely insulted to be thought of as an unmarried woman who would need birth control.   

[caitmcg]

1 hour ago, Dejana said:

Obtaining birth control back then was a matter of access as much as interest in doing so. Young women would have talked among themselves, maybe, but that doesn't mean everyone would've had a ready connection like Joan did. 

Of course. And after all, Joan wasn’t in her early twenties, and had probably made those connections through discreet inquiries when she was younger. Not everyone is as canny as Joan, after all, but even she presumably had to get herself to that position.

[Umbelina]

On 7/18/2020 at 2:30 PM, sistermagpie said:

Too bad she didn't prepare her enough by saying, "Btw, this pill doesn't start working the minute you take one." Seems the doctor didn't think to say that either!

Even in the late 70's some doctors didn't know or didn't warn women about the waiting time for birth control pills to be effective.  

I took a job cleaning medical offices when I was 16, we cleaned at night in a huge medical complex.  Believe me when I tell you, most of the sexually active girls we knew got their BC pills from one of the cleaners.  Samples laying everywhere, we never took many at a time, and we never took any from doctors who had organized supplies or inventory lists.  Most just threw all kinds of samples in one or two large drawers, willy-nilly.  From those drawers?  We got everything needed.  /bad  None of us took hard drugs, but just about everyone got their BC pills there.

 

On 7/18/2020 at 3:54 PM, caitmcg said:

Of course. And after all, Joan wasn’t in her early twenties, and had probably made those connections through discreet inquiries when she was younger. Not everyone is as canny as Joan, after all, but even she presumably had to get herself to that position.

Joan's pretty canny.  She knew, I think, that Peggy was, for lack of a better word, "thirsty."  She was ready to be a grown up, and had very little clue how to do that.  Joan saw all the men gathering around this girl who probably didn't have many suitors before this job.  Joan had been there once herself, wide eyes/big city.  She may have even caught the looks between Peggy and Pete (can't remember.)  

So this obviously naive and inexperienced girl who brought her lunch to work (sad) needed a little help, and I think Joan was well intentioned.  If the doc had done his job, and mentioned "wait 30 days" Peggy might never have become pregnant.  

Anyway, my point is, Joan obviously judged Peggy correctly in suggesting the pills.  I seriously doubt it was part of her "welcome routine" for all secretaries though.

[cleo]

I'm doing a rewatch of MM, on the last eps. Really not into Don's cross America travels. Just seems like pointless filler.

I ff some of it but I'm on the finale and I feel like I should get through it.

I like all the other scenes.

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, cleo said:

I'm doing a rewatch of MM, on the last eps. Really not into Don's cross America travels. Just seems like pointless filler.

I ff some of it but I'm on the finale and I feel like I should get through it.

I like all the other scenes.

Funny how that stuff doesn't get any better on re-watch. It probably doesn't help that Don's already had so many random encounters and meanwhile people back home are dealing with things they haven't dealt with before. Don thinks Diana is super special in the moment but we know that's just a pattern of his.

[cleo]

Yep and his epiphanies are all retread.

Also the people in the Coke commercial just seem super creepy to me, although the song is fine. I do know it was real. Still.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by cleo

[Guest]

It did get slightly better for me on rewatch, but I think that was more that I knew there was a somewhat satisfying (to me) ending ahead. When it first aired, I felt like the Diana stuff went on way longer than it did on rewatch.  (Maybe the watching it all in a day vs over a month helped as well.)

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

It did get slightly better for me on rewatch, but I think that was more that I knew there was a somewhat satisfying (to me) ending ahead. When it first aired, I felt like the Diana stuff went on way longer than it did on rewatch.  (Maybe the watching it all in a day vs over a month helped as well.)

Yes, knowing that Diana was a narrative tool to get Don on his road trip made her easier to watch a second time.  I do remember when the season first aired being annoyed that the show was spending too much time on this new character when far more interesting characters were on the back burner.  

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yes, knowing that Diana was a narrative tool to get Don on his road trip made her easier to watch a second time.  I do remember when the season first aired being annoyed that the show was spending too much time on this new character when far more interesting characters were on the back burner.  

Easier?  Yes.

Less annoying that they had Don without the rest of the cast for most of the final season?  Nope.

And no, phone calls don't cut it.  Don was not the only important character on screen.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, deaja said:

It did get slightly better for me on rewatch, but I think that was more that I knew there was a somewhat satisfying (to me) ending ahead. When it first aired, I felt like the Diana stuff went on way longer than it did on rewatch.  (Maybe the watching it all in a day vs over a month helped as well.)

I noticed the same thing re-watching his affair with Suzanne the schoolteacher. I was amazed at how little she was really in it!

I guess another thing that helps at the end is that since you know that Don, sadly, isn't going to have any scenes with actual characters you stop getting your hopes up for it!

[Ohiopirate02]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I noticed the same thing re-watching his affair with Suzanne the schoolteacher. I was amazed at how little she was really in it!

I guess another thing that helps at the end is that since you know that Don, sadly, isn't going to have any scenes with actual characters you stop getting your hopes up for it!

When I first watched the show, I completely missed that Don left Suzanne in the car when Betty finally confronted him.  Something clicked in my rewatch and I realized how Don treated his mistresses just as badly as Betty and later Meghan.  And also, they were all temporary.  Watching in real time, you had no idea what was going to happen to them.  

[Pickles Aplenty]

On 8/14/2020 at 7:29 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

When I first watched the show, I completely missed that Don left Suzanne in the car when Betty finally confronted him.  Something clicked in my rewatch and I realized how Don treated his mistresses just as badly as Betty and later Meghan.  And also, they were all temporary.  Watching in real time, you had no idea what was going to happen to them.  

Yeah, which is why I was puzzled when I heard people say they wondered why Don never called Suzanne after his divorce with Betty.  Suzanne mattered very little to Don, just like all his mistresses.  She was just another distraction.

I also read a comment on another forum where someone said Conrad Hilton treated Don the way Don treated his mistresses.  It was very interesting.

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, Billina said:

I also read a comment on another forum where someone said Conrad Hilton treated Don the way Don treated his mistresses.  It was very interesting.

I like that observation.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Billina said:

I also read a comment on another forum where someone said Conrad Hilton treated Don the way Don treated his mistresses.  It was very interesting.

In the sense of expecting Don to be there for him when he wanted them yes, but Don didn't have the power over his mistresses that Hilton had over him. If they ran over to him at 3AM it was because they wanted to.

[Pickles Aplenty]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In the sense of expecting Don to be there for him when he wanted them yes, but Don didn't have the power over his mistresses that Hilton had over him. If they ran over to him at 3AM it was because they wanted to.

The, "What do you want from me, love?" line was something they cited as Hilton doing to Don what Don did to his mistresses.  I'm not sure most of Don's mistresses wanted love, but it was an interesting observation, nonetheless.

Actually, now that I think of it, that's really more the way Don treated his wives, not his mistresses.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Billina

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Billina said:

Actually, now that I think of it, that's really more the way Don treated his wives, not his mistresses.

Ah! Yes, that actually does hit it more for me. There's a reason that Don's mistresses seem to come out of the experience much better than his wives, even the ones who are hurt, like Rachel and Faye.

[Pickles Aplenty]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Ah! Yes, that actually does hit it more for me. There's a reason that Don's mistresses seem to come out of the experience much better than his wives, even the ones who are hurt, like Rachel and Faye.

Yup.  Connie expects Don to be available whenever he wants him to be, he dangles a promising account in front of Don like a carrot if only Don can pull it off, Don works his ass off to satisfy Connie, and Connie rejects Don's work as if it were nothing.  To rub salt in the wound, he tells Don he expected the literal moon, not a figurative one.  That is exactly how Don treated his wives.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Billina said:

Yup.  Connie expects Don to be available whenever he wants him to be, he dangles a promising account in front of Don like a carrot if only Don can pull it off, Don works his ass off to satisfy Connie, and Connie rejects Don's work as if it were nothing.  To rub salt in the wound, he tells Don he expected the literal moon, not a figurative one.  That is exactly how Don treated his wives.

Betty hits it right on when she's sorry for Megan in ways she never would have been sorry for any of his mistresses. That poor girl. She doesn't know that loving you is the worst way to get to you.

[SunnyBeBe]

I stopped by here not too long ago and posted about about my re-watch of the final season.  For some crazy reason, last week I started watching it from SEASON ONE!  I know...that's crazy....I'm now in Season II!   I'm not sure what happened when the show first aired season one, but, apparently, I missed a few episodes or I've blocked it from my mind.  

I've concluded that I must have changed a lot since this show first aired, because, I feel quite differently than I did years ago.  My entire opinion about certain characters and certain scenes is very different than it used to be.  How did I miss how absolutely horrid most of the characters are?  They are mean and demeaning to women, employees, minorities, etc.  Now, I'm in it for the long haul to see how my feelings change over the course of the remaining seasons.  (I'm watching on IMdb.)

Edited August 31, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[SunnyBeBe]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:12 PM, Ralphster said:

I have a hugely unpopular opinion, and that is that Harry was justified in pointing out Joan's prostitution. I was sickened by that plotline. Modern feminism has repeatedly railed against women doing that, because it is hugely demeaning and hurtful. Yet Joan has gotten so many hurrahs for this behaviour. She had the choice to say no; she wasn't starving or facing eviction or lacking in childcare. Perhaps this should elicit a discussion elsewhere of whether most people would literally whore themselves out for a large sum, but that seems a bit of a digression.

Harry brought the company into the TV age. This is huge beyond measure. Without Harry's perspicacity, Sterling Cooper and later iterations would have foundered in trying to rush to keep up with other firms who not only had a good handle on what worked & didn't work for TV, but who would have already established relationships with the networks, etc. Harry's contributions in this regard are almost always overlooked, IMO, while Joan's act of prostitution is praised. Having experienced rape myself, when I had no choice whatsoever in what happened to me, it is hugely galling to see people claiming Joan was victimized. Maybe she could be considered victimized in that her contributions, which were huge, should have been recognised along with Harry's by the partners long hence (in which case Harry is also a victim), but not in her choice to have sex for money. I cannot and will not cast Joan as a victim in this situation, nor will I cheer her on for "getting hers." I completely understand Harry's rage and humiliation, not to mention his disgust; Harry keeps getting steamrolled by the company. In the end, when he's just about to make partner, they sell to McCann and he misses out AGAIN. That's THE definition of wrong.

I also think Greg gets the shaft, too. He's a rapist, so he can go jump off a cliff for all I care, but Joan committed paternity fraud. The fact that the child was never Greg's negates, for me, his behaviour in choosing to stay overseas away from his "family." Who's to say he didn't sense in some way that the child wasn't his, either through the child itself or through Joan's mannerisms? He already felt insecure about Joan's sexuality and her relationship with Roger (and probably men in general); perhaps he never fully believed the child was his, because he never trusted Joan (for good reason). In any case, he can't be considered bad for this because the child wasn't his. I understand the other side's argument here - that, if Greg believed the child to be his, his behaviour was reprehensible - but I firmly believe that the beginning of all this was a huge lie, therefore Greg's behaviour is not the evil behaviour it is characterized as. 

Also, Joan is a terrible, terrible person for lying about her son's paternity. Having dealt with this in real life, people who do this are not good people. They are selfish and care only about their own narratives, not about the truth or what's best for other people. Only what's good for them. And in this case, Joan had decided she would cling to Dr. Loser for the time being, and so it was good for her to lie about her child's paternity so that her narrative could keep chugging along. Kevin deserves to know who his real father is, and Greg deserves to know the child isn't his. That's the only positive thing I will say about Greg, who is overall not a good person either. It's why he and Joan deserved each other, IMO. I always loathed Joan; deep down, she belongs in a trailer park, for she just has that mentality about her. She isn't sophisticated, she isn't openminded, she is drama-centered and narcissistic and lacks dignity. It says a lot about our society that the behaviour of someone like Joan is conflated with dignity.

I sort of agree with you on the paternity issue.  I think that before DNA, keeping things like that secret, for someone's better good, wasn't that uncommon, though, maybe, not the right thing to do.  I also see where you are coming from about the character of Joan.  I think that I like her more than you do, but, I do get your point.  When, I see some of the hardcore stuff from Joan in her position, I do sense that she got there from being hurt before and suffering to get where she is.  I don't get that she's harsh for pleasure of it, but, to protect herself or others.  Doesn't make it right, but, I do see some humanity in her, not like some of the other characters on the show.    

[txhorns79]

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Also, Joan is a terrible, terrible person for lying about her son's paternity. Having dealt with this in real life, people who do this are not good people. They are selfish and care only about their own narratives, not about the truth or what's best for other people. Only what's good for them. And in this case, Joan had decided she would cling to Dr. Loser for the time being, and so it was good for her to lie about her child's paternity so that her narrative could keep chugging along. Kevin deserves to know who his real father is, and Greg deserves to know the child isn't his.

I do think the show cheated its way out of the real moral implications of Greg being lied to about his paternity by having him essentially abandon Kevin once he and Joan divorced.  That way, we the audience can overlook what Joan has done because Greg doesn't even care that he has a child with Joan. 

Presuming Margaret reconciles with her father at some point, it would have been interesting to see what Roger does with his will, and whether he intends to leave a bombshell for her to discover after he has died.  

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Harry brought the company into the TV age. This is huge beyond measure. Without Harry's perspicacity, Sterling Cooper and later iterations would have foundered in trying to rush to keep up with other firms who not only had a good handle on what worked & didn't work for TV, but who would have already established relationships with the networks, etc. Harry's contributions in this regard are almost always overlooked, IMO, while Joan's act of prostitution is praised.

It was strange to me that Sterling Cooper didn't get a tv department until 1960.  That seemed like it would have been years behind everyone else.  For perspective, it looks like McCann had a tv department (combined at the time with their radio department) beginning in the late 40s.  With Harry, I agree the tv department was important, but I also kind of feel like nothing Harry was doing was special.  When I say that, I mean, he's like Joan.  She's uber-competent at her job, but there are lot of competent office managers with Joan's skill set.  You could replace Harry with a similar executive at his level and likely get much the same performance.  This is unlike someone like Don or Peggy, who you can't just substitute out with other creative and expect the same result.         

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I do think the show cheated its way out of the real moral implications of Greg being lied to about his paternity by having him essentially abandon Kevin once he and Joan divorced.  That way, we the audience can overlook what Joan has done because Greg doesn't even care that he has a child with Joan. 

Though one could also argue the opposite, that by getting rid of Greg, who was already a weak, unreliable character who'd already walked out on Joan when Kevin was conceived, the show could concentrate *more* on Joan's lie about his paternity without needing some soapy twist to bring it to Greg's attention. I mean, not only did we need not see Greg super loving toward Kevin and so get a chance to feel sorry that he was being lied to (not that it was likely he'd be that hands-on given the time period), we also didn't get to see Joan presented as a victim when she was left to be a single mother because nobody in the audience felt Greg had a responsibility to Kevin anyway. Greg was a terrible, terrible person, yes, but in a more abstract way, like he was a philosophy question.

[SunnyBeBe]

Some random questions I have from my re-watch of the show so far:

Why is Don attracted to the bad comedian's wife?  She has no personality, no charm, and isn't that attractive.  Why her?

When the air conditioner salesman comes to the Drapper home, he tells Betty that their cool air is escaping from cracks in the windows.  What cool air? Their house was hot. They didn't have air conditioning. Why would cool air be escaping?

Why does Duck let his dog out the door of the office?  

Edited September 1, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[Ohiopirate02]

30 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Some random questions I have from my re-watch of the show so far:

Why is Don attracted to the bad comedian's wife?  She has no personality, no charm, and isn't that attractive.  Why her?

When the air conditioner salesman comes to the Drapper home, he tells Betty that their cool air is escaping from cracks in the windows.  What cool air? Their house was hot. They didn't have air conditioning. Why would cool air be escaping?

Why does Duck let his dog out the door of the office?  

I find Don's attraction to Bobbie to be multifaceted.  He despises Jimmy Barrett and I think part of his reasoning for sleeping with Bobbie is to stick it to Jimmy.  That backfires because Jimmy is well aware of his wife's habit of putting out to further his career.  I believe this is heavily implied if not outright stated by Jimmy.  I rewatched those episodes back in May.  Don is also attracted to Bobbie being the brains behind the Barrett operation.  Don does tend to seek out women who make up for what Betty is lacking at the moment.  Of course, Betty is being gaslit by Don and cannot be the smart, witty woman that Don wants.  

Duck lets Chauncey go because Duck wants to go on a bender.  Right before Duck gets ready to pour his first drink Chauncey barks and Duck feels guilty knowing he should not be drinking.  Duck being the asshole that he is decides to abandon his dog so he can get his drink on.  

[SunnyBeBe]

I think that Don does have terrible taste in women.  I look forward to seeing more about the woman in CA who passed away.  She seemed to be different, from what I recall.  

[VCRTracking]

Never bet against Betty Draper!

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by VCRTracking

[txhorns79]

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Never bet against Betty Draper!

That is both amazing and completely insane.  I also see that January apparently really likes beige shoes. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Some random questions I have from my re-watch of the show so far:

Why is Don attracted to the bad comedian's wife?  She has no personality, no charm, and isn't that attractive.  Why her?

When the air conditioner salesman comes to the Drapper home, he tells Betty that their cool air is escaping from cracks in the windows.  What cool air? Their house was hot. They didn't have air conditioning. Why would cool air be escaping?

Why does Duck let his dog out the door of the office?  

Bobbie Barrett was the female Don.  

She created her own job, was excellent at doing that, and liked to have sex.  She didn't see her marriage as a reason not to have sex.  She decided when and where, and she decided when it was over.  She could also be reckless, just like Don.

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Though one could also argue the opposite, that by getting rid of Greg, who was already a weak, unreliable character who'd already walked out on Joan when Kevin was conceived, the show could concentrate *more* on Joan's lie about his paternity without needing some soapy twist to bring it to Greg's attention. I mean, not only did we need not see Greg super loving toward Kevin and so get a chance to feel sorry that he was being lied to (not that it was likely he'd be that hands-on given the time period), we also didn't get to see Joan presented as a victim when she was left to be a single mother because nobody in the audience felt Greg had a responsibility to Kevin anyway. Greg was a terrible, terrible person, yes, but in a more abstract way, like he was a philosophy question.

Greg was a rapist, an insecure little man who failed in his internship, and needed Joan to prop him up constantly.  He wanted to be a "big man" and with his rank in the Army he got to be that, and his lack of skills didn't matter in Vietnam.  

As far as Joan "passing off" her baby (because of one horrifying night's error) as Greg's?  To me?  Big whoop.  Honestly women have been doing that since time began, and legally, any child born during a marriage IS the husband's child anyway.  Greg wanted a baby (again, probably more for societal norms and proof of manhood than wanting to change diapers) and they were trying.  Joan might not have been able to conceive again.  It wasn't a "mean" decision on her part, it was a practical one, and Joan is nothing if not practical.  It's not as if Joan had been cheating on him all along, or planned this.  I believe that in her mind, this was the best decision of all of them at the time, including Greg.

Later of course it was proven true, Greg dumped her, he was never asked for, nor did he volunteer child support.  He married again very soon and had twins.

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Never bet against Betty Draper!

 

 

Ha!

Speaking of January, I loved the character she played in Love Actually, she was so different, and even then, somehow held the screen.  (She's one of the babe's the guy from England meets in the US bar.)

[VCRTracking]

I got a kick out of January's video but it was an hour after when I realized "Wait, there's a Betty Draper doll?" I didn't know they made Mad Men Barbies!

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Some random questions I have from my re-watch of the show so far:

Why is Don attracted to the bad comedian's wife?  She has no personality, no charm, and isn't that attractive.  Why her?

I haven't rewatched that part in a while, but didn't she aggressively come on to him? I think that was part of her appeal. She intrigued him because she was so different. Also, did he get with her after he was impotent with Betty or am I getting the dates mixed up? He needed an affair at that point.

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

When the air conditioner salesman comes to the Drapper home, he tells Betty that their cool air is escaping from cracks in the windows.  What cool air? Their house was hot. They didn't have air conditioning. Why would cool air be escaping?

Houses are sometimes cooler than outside even without air conditioning, aren't they? Though maybe he meant to speaking about the cool air that would be escaping if the place was air conditioned.

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Why does Duck let his dog out the door of the office?  

That was answered above but yeah, he wanted to drink again and couldn't do it in front of Chauncey's trusting brown eyes. Poor Chauncey.

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think that Don does have terrible taste in women.  I look forward to seeing more about the woman in CA who passed away.  She seemed to be different, from what I recall.  

He wasn't attracted to her, of course, following the pattern. She's more like Peggy. He loves her, but doesn't want to sleep with her. Joan too, really.

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Greg was a rapist, an insecure little man who failed in his internship, and needed Joan to prop him up constantly.  He wanted to be a "big man" and with his rank in the Army he got to be that, and his lack of skills didn't matter in Vietnam.  

As far as Joan "passing off" her baby (because of one horrifying night's error) as Greg's?  To me?  Big whoop.  Honestly women have been doing that since time began, and legally, any child born during a marriage IS the husband's child anyway.  Greg wanted a baby (again, probably more for societal norms and proof of manhood than wanting to change diapers) and they were trying.  Joan might not have been able to conceive again.  It wasn't a "mean" decision on her part, it was a practical one, and Joan is nothing if not practical.  It's not as if Joan had been cheating on him all along, or planned this.  I believe that in her mind, this was the best decision of all of them at the time, including Greg.

Later of course it was proven true, Greg dumped her, he was never asked for, nor did he volunteer child support.  He married again very soon and had twins.ter she played in Love Actually, she was so different, and even then, somehow held the screen.  (She's one of the babe's the guy from England meets in the US bar.)

Yeah, the fact that Joan and Greg were actively trying to get pregnant make you makes you wonder what, after all, the problem would be. Having a secret like that can be bad for a relationship, sure, but not as bad as raping your spouse or enlisting to go overseas without talking about it etc. etc. Greg would have gotten everything he allegedly wanted from Kevin.

22 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Presuming Margaret reconciles with her father at some point, it would have been interesting to see what Roger does with his will, and whether he intends to leave a bombshell for her to discover after he has died.  

Forgot to comment on this part, but it seems like Roger's fine with it being a bombshell-in fact, it seems like he's intending it to be an open secret so it wouldn't even be that. If Margaret comes back before he dies she'll find out from him. If not, that's on her. Ellery will probably know already and be more annoyed at the mother who abandoned him than his grandfather's illegitimate child.

[txhorns79]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Forgot to comment on this part, but it seems like Roger's fine with it being a bombshell-in fact, it seems like he's intending it to be an open secret so it wouldn't even be that. If Margaret comes back before he dies she'll find out from him. If not, that's on her. Ellery will probably know already and be more annoyed at the mother who abandoned him than his grandfather's illegitimate child.

I don't think Roger is intending it to be an open secret.  I doubt he would do that to Joan, and I don't think Joan would do that to Kevin.  Roger's behavior is a lot more bohemian after he and Jane divorce, but he's still an upper class wasp and appearances do matter.