Perry Mason - General Discussion

[peacheslatour]

I'm just watching The Case of the Witless Witness. It's got both Larry Tate and Uncle Fester.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Speaking of Perry Mason, he came to me in a dream last night! And it was PERRY, not Raymond!

I meant to say this about "The Case of the Constant Doyle" which starred Bette Davis as the top guest star and who was the defense attorney. She filmed this a year after she did Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? and I have to say, even back then, make-up did a fantastic job of making her look as rough as Baby Jane did, because Better looked Freakin' FANTASTIC in this episode.

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Speaking of Perry Mason, he came to me in a dream last night! And it was PERRY, not Raymond!

I meant to say this about "The Case of the Constant Doyle" which starred Bette Davis as the top guest star and who was the defense attorney. She filmed this a year after she did Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? and I have to say, even back then, make-up did a fantastic job of making her look as rough as Baby Jane did, because Better looked Freakin' FANTASTIC in this episode.

She was only 54 when she made WEHTBJ.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

She was only 54 when she made WEHTBJ.

I know, but the make up job made her look lots older. In addition to crazy as a whackadoo!

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know, but the make up job made her look lots older. In addition to crazy as a whackadoo!

Oh yeah! I think she was incredibly brave to play that role and boy did she sell it!

[dttruman]

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I'm just watching The Case of the Witless Witness. It's got both Larry Tate and Uncle Fester.

You might say they cut their teeth as guest stars on Perry Mason, until they got their own reoccurring or starring roles on sitcoms

[chessiegal]

3 minutes ago, dttruman said:

You might say they cut their teeth as guest stars on Perry Mason, until they got their own reoccurring or starring roles on sitcoms

Jackie Coogan started acting when he was a child.

Quote

Charlie Chaplin's film classic The Kid (1921) made him one of the first child stars in the history of Hollywood. He later sued his mother and stepfather over his squandered film earnings and provoked California to enact the first known legal protection for the earnings of child performers, the California Child Actors Bill, widely known as the Coogan Act.[3] Coogan continued to act throughout his life, later earning renewed fame in middle age portraying Uncle Fester in the 1960s television series The Addams Family.

 

[peacheslatour]

What was up with Perry's office decor? Was that paneling or wallpaper? Why is his desk made of wicker?

[chessiegal]

From the one colorized episode, the walls look like paneling. The desk sides looked like peg board to me. I guess it was supposed to be modern/edgy. My husband always comments on the tiki mask on the wall.

, ,

[Egg McMuffin]

Not colorized - real color! I wish we had a real color episode of other B&W series like I Love Lucy and Leave it to Beaver. There’s a real color episode of Burns and Allen that was done as a test, but it’s always shown in B&W in syndication.

[chessiegal]

Yes, real color - I misspoke (mistyped?). I believe I read they were experimenting in the event the series was renewed.

[dttruman]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:22 AM, Egg McMuffin said:

Not colorized - real color! I wish we had a real color episode of other B&W series like I Love Lucy and Leave it to Beaver. There’s a real color episode of Burns and Allen that was done as a test, but it’s always shown in B&W in syndication.

 

On 2/10/2022 at 10:17 AM, chessiegal said:

Yes, real color - I misspoke (mistyped?). I believe I read they were experimenting in the event the series was renewed.

For what it is worth, I found this, an NY Times article "A computerized process by which black-and-white film is transferred to videotape and then, frame by frame, transformed into color, colorization is expensive and time-consuming. The average cost ranges from $2,000 to $3,000 per minute of film, depending on the complexity of the footage."

Edited February 15, 2022 by dttruman

[Egg McMuffin]

Computer colorization has come a long way since the 80s, but it still looks off. There’s a person with a YouTube channel who has done the best ones I’ve ever seen. Here’s a clip of a short I Love Lucy scene that he colorized (much better than the ones CBS sometimes shows).

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, Egg McMuffin said:

Computer colorization has come a long way since the 80s, but it still looks off. There’s a person with a YouTube channel who has done the best ones I’ve ever seen. Here’s a clip of a short I Love Lucy scene that he colorized (much better than the ones CBS sometimes shows).

That's damn good! Thank you for pointing that out

[Egg McMuffin]

You’re very welcome. Check out others from the same poster, like the Munsters and the Addams Family. They have done an amazing job.

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Yes, real color - I misspoke (mistyped?). I believe I read they were experimenting in the event the series was renewed.

That's close to what I've read. Here's the story I saw. CBS required them to shoot in color as a condition of renewing the series. At this point in television history, CBS (which was way behind NBC in color programming) was going to go virtually all-color and didn't want the show if the creators insisted on black-and-white. The color episode was a test to prove the viability (or not) of Perry Mason in color. Obviously the resulting verdict by TPTB was either that the show didn't "work" in color or that color wasn't enough to make the show relevant.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

That's close to what I've read. Here's the story I saw. CBS required them to shoot in color as a condition of renewing the series. At this point in television history, CBS (which was way behind NBC in color programming) was going to go virtually all-color and didn't want the show if the creators insisted on black-and-white. The color episode was a test to prove the viability (or not) of Perry Mason in color. Obviously the resulting verdict by TPTB was either that the show didn't "work" in color or that color wasn't enough to make the show relevant.

There’s also the FACT that Raymond wanted to leave after season seven, but stuck around through nine. Even if the show was renewed, who would have played Perry? Without Raymond, there is no show.

[Egg McMuffin]

The issue with converting to color was that there were a certain amount of fixed costs associated: reshooting stock footage, repainting the sets, new wardrobe, color cameras, different makeup, etc. Production companies often didn’t want to make that type of investment for a single season. That’s why we saw a lot of shows that otherwise would have gotten an additional session end in 1966: Munsters, Addams Family, Patty Duke Show. They were marginal in the ratings to begin with and the cost of color pushed them to the cancellation column.

Perry was trailing off in the ratings in its ninth season. It just wasn’t worth it for them to convert it to color.

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

The issue with converting to color was that there were a certain amount of fixed costs associated: reshooting stock footage, repainting the sets, new wardrobe, color cameras, different makeup, etc. Production companies often didn’t want to make that type of investment for a single season. That’s why we saw a lot of shows that otherwise would have gotten an additional session end in 1966: Munsters, Addams Family, Patty Duke Show. They were marginal in the ratings to begin with and the cost of color pushed them to the cancellation column.

I guess these were the years of experimentation. The television had only been around for some 10 or so years and they didn't know if it was a fad or how popular it would be. When they did, their next major improvements of movies were to colorize everything and projection Remember all the previews that showed the movies in Cinemascope and Technicolor

[chessiegal]

I read somewhere, can't find it now, that CBS was changing to shows in color around 1966 to compete with NBC. This was in relation to The Wild Wild West on CBS, that was black and white its first season in 1965, then went to color in 1966 (and what glorious colors it was). There was a comment that NBC was pushing color to get people to buy RCA color televisions. I don't see a parent company connection between NBC and RCA in the mid 60s. GE originally, then later, but not then. But I could be wrong.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, chessiegal said:

I read somewhere, can't find it now, that CBS was changing to shows in color around 1966 to compete with NBC. This was in relation to The Wild Wild West on CBS, that was black and white its first season in 1965, then went to color in 1966 (and what glorious colors it was). There was a comment that NBC was pushing color to get people to buy RCA color televisions. I don't see a parent company connection between NBC and RCA in the mid 60s. GE originally, then later, but not then. But I could be wrong.

I think Barbara Hale talked about it in the special features interview in the 25th Anniversary DVD. The interview was from one of those Emmy interviews.

[peacheslatour]

14 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

I read somewhere, can't find it now, that CBS was changing to shows in color around 1966 to compete with NBC. This was in relation to The Wild Wild West on CBS, that was black and white its first season in 1965, then went to color in 1966 (and what glorious colors it was). There was a comment that NBC was pushing color to get people to buy RCA color televisions. I don't see a parent company connection between NBC and RCA in the mid 60s. GE originally, then later, but not then. But I could be wrong.

NBC was at the forefront of color programming because its parent company RCA manufactured the most successful line of color sets in the 1950s and, at the end of August 1956, announced that in comparison with 1955–56 (when only three of its regularly scheduled programs were broadcast in color) the 1956–57 season would feature 17 series in color.[85] By 1959 RCA was the only remaining major manufacturer of color sets.[86] CBS and ABC, which were not affiliated with set manufacturers and were not eager to promote their competitor's product, dragged their feet into color.

[chessiegal]

Ah, so RCA owned NBC. Well, if Raymond Burr wanted out 2 years earlier, that's a natural end.

My husband likes the early years of Perry because they have a film noir feel.

[peacheslatour]

25 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Ah, so RCA owned NBC. Well, if Raymond Burr wanted out 2 years earlier, that's a natural end.

My husband likes the early years of Perry because they have a film noir feel.

I like that about them too. I'd say your husband has good taste but you knew that!

[dttruman]

59 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Ah, so RCA owned NBC. Well, if Raymond Burr wanted out 2 years earlier, that's a natural end.

My husband likes the early years of Perry because they have a film noir feel.

Was Burr interested doing another series that was colorized? If so, that explains why he jumped to NBC to do Ironside when finished with Perry Mason.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Was Burr interested doing another series that was colorized? If so, that explains why he jumped to NBC to do Ironside when finished with Perry Mason.

Nope. Not from the interviews I’d read. This is just speculation, but he may have agreed as Ironside was wheelchair bound and it would have been easier on him due to his back issues?

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nope. Not from the interviews I’d read. This is just speculation, but he may have agreed as Ironside was wheelchair bound and it would have been easier on him due to his back issues?

Yes, It was apparent he was having health problems, hence all the guest stars subbing for him on his cases. Bette Davis, Walter Pidgeon and Michael Rennie. There were a couple more.

[Milburn Stone]

Some posts on this thread are making me realize how old I am. :) Confusion between color film and colorized film (not the same thing!) is something no child of the fifties and sixties could have, because the introduction of color TV, and its promotion and expansion, was such a big deal then. Similarly, no one who was around then would have any doubt that NBC was the broadcasting arm of RCA. I have to remind myself that these decades, to a young adult of today, are the equivalent of the Roaring Twenties to me. I know something about the 1920s, and would probably get a B on a quiz of the cultural events of that decade--but would not ace it!

Edited February 12, 2022 by Milburn Stone

[chessiegal]

24 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Some posts on this thread are making me realize how old I am. :) Confusion between color film and colorized film (not the same thing!) is something no child of the fifties and sixties could have, because the introduction of color TV, and its promotion and expansion, was such a big deal then. Similarly, no one who was around then would have any doubt that NBC was the broadcasting arm of RCA. I have to remind myself that these decades, to a young adult of today, are the equivalent of the Roaring Twenties to me. I know something about the 1920s, and would probably get a B on a quiz of the cultural events of that decade--but would not ace it!

Now you're making me feel stupid. I was born in 1950! 

[Milburn Stone]

49 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Now you're making me feel stupid. I was born in 1950! 

This is one of those times I wasn't sure which emoji to pick. My apologies in any case. :)

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Milburn Stone

[chessiegal]

When I watch episodes from the 1950s I wonder if we watched them when they first aired. My father worked nights so mom controlled the tv. She hated Westerns, said they were too violent and would give me nightmares. 😄 She favored comedies and variety shows. I don't remember her watching Perry Mason, but there are plenty of things I've discovered that I don't remember from pulling out her diaries. 🤷‍♂️

[roseha]

The switch to change black and white shows to color was sometimes unfortunate I think.   Personally I feel that it was very detrimental to the noir look and feel of The Fugitive, despite the show getting  a huge rating for its finale.  I wonder if it would have worked well for Perry Mason either.

I did read that The Dick Van Dyke Show would have aslo gone to color also if it had been renewed.

[Egg McMuffin]

It would have - everything that was in B&W for the 1965-66 season went or would have gone to color for the 1966-67 season, when all three networks had full color primetime schedules. “The Donna Reed Show,” “The Patty Duke Show” “The Addams Family”, and “The Munsters” all would have been in color had they been renewed for another year (“Patty Duke” was actually cancelled over this - ABC and the production company couldn’t agree over who would pay for the increased production costs due to color).

Most of CBS’s sitcoms actually went to color in the fall of 1965. They knew at that point that “Dick Van Dyke” was likely going into its last season, so it was allowed to stay in B&W for the final season.

[dttruman]

8 hours ago, roseha said:

Personally I feel that it was very detrimental to the noir look and feel of The Fugitive, despite the show getting  a huge rating for its finale. 

Was the "noir look" actually called that back then, or was that just the normal look, and was the colorized the revolutionized "new and improved" look? I remember watching different programs back in the mid 60's and what sounded strange was if I watched a program, at the intro the narrator would say "in living color" or there would be a caption at the bottom "in color". I guess this was their way of telling me (or the public), they were in color, so I (or we) need to get a color tv.

The "noir" to me was always the black & white look along with the dress shirt and tie, heavy suits (not light and airy) and fedoras and overcoats.

[Egg McMuffin]

I do believe that The Fugitive was referred to as noir, not just because of the black and white photography, but because of the cynical attitudes and motivations of many of the characters. As for the photography itself, it had the same type of stark, dark style - with lots of shadows - as some of the classic film noir movies of the 40s. Contrast it with something like I Love Lucy, which had much brighter, flatter lighting.

I also think color kind of hurt The Fugitive. Same with Combat - it was a 1940s period piece and it was more effective in B&W.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

It would have - everything that was in B&W for the 1965-66 season went or would have gone to color for the 1966-67 season, when all three networks had full color primetime schedules. “The Donna Reed Show,” “The Patty Duke Show” “The Addams Family”, and “The Munsters” all would have been in color had they been renewed for another year 

Addams Family? Bad idea. Like really bad.

 

[Fool to cry]

Binging season 2. Man, never go to Perry for legal advice on just a small matter. You wind up getting arrested for murder the next day!

Speaking of noir, I like how all the "bad" women in the late 50s look like they're off a paperback cover painted by Robert McGinnis!

Edited April 9, 2022 by Fool to cry

[Fool to cry]

Perry "sympathetic eyes" Mason vs Hamilton "suspicious eyes" Burger.

[Schnickelfritz]

Just saw an ad that the Perry  Mason movies are going to shown on MeTV Sunday nights (8pm Eastern) starting May 8th. Hurrah!

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, Schnickelfritz said:

Just saw an ad that the Perry  Mason movies are going to shown on MeTV Sunday nights (8pm Eastern) starting May 8th. Hurrah!

I have always like the 1 hour versions of the Perry Mason, but these 2 hour Perry Mason movies, kind of left me a little disappointed. It seems like his private investigator Paul Drake Jr or law student Ken Malansky have little adventures of their own, that seem to waste a lot of that 2 hour time. I always thought they should have made them into 1 1/2 hour episodes, like the old Sunday Night Mystery Movies with McCloud, McMillian & Wife, and Columbo.

[Egg McMuffin]

Agreed. Unfortunately by the mid 80s, there were no more 90 minute time slots on network TV. Which is too bad because the new Perry Masons and Columbos would have benefitted from the shorter run time, as would have many of the TV movies of the era. The 90 minute TV movies from the 1970s were much better IMO.

The 70s NBC Mystery Movie actually expanded to two hours for a season or two, and then NBC went back to the original length, realizing its mistake.

I also missed William Katt (Paul Jr) when he departed. Billy Moses was just dull (in his first few episodes, they gave him a wacky girlfriend to add some color, but she disappeared).

[Schnickelfritz]

I agree with both of you (dttruman and Egg McMuffin) but I will be watching anyway! They suck me in every time. Enjoy the first one and then it is all down hill from there, but there I am...

The one thing I  disagree with is William Katt. I hated his character. His dad was suave and cool  but Paul Jr kind of an idiot. He was too inept for my tastes. Didn't like Billy Moses either.

[Egg McMuffin]

I liked the initial one, too, plus the second one, with Michele Greene as the nun and Tom Bosley warming up for his later role as Father Dowling. After that, they were hit or miss. But they were certainly popular - the movies actually ran for 10 seasons, one season longer than the original series.

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, Egg McMuffin said:

the movies actually ran for 10 seasons, one season longer than the original series.

Now, are you actually counting those last couple of movies where they used a Western type lawyer who wore a cowboy hat, I can't think of his name? I don't really count him, but it is still a fair assessment.

[Egg McMuffin]

Yeah - I am. The last four were without Raymond Burr and the last one was in 1995. The production company already had the scripts written and had a contract with NBC to do them so they went ahead.

[dttruman]

There are some episodes from a remake of the Perry Mason series from back in the 1970.s starring Monte Markham. I watched a couple of them and I recognized a few of the actors that appeared in the Perry Mason series from back in the 50's and 60's

Here is one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-DP14HQ5Y

 

[Milburn Stone]

4 hours ago, dttruman said:

There are some episodes from a remake of the Perry Mason series from back in the 1970.s starring Monte Markham. I watched a couple of them and I recognized a few of the actors that appeared in the Perry Mason series from back in the 50's and 60's

Here is one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-DP14HQ5Y

 

I went right to the end credits, and saw that Gail Patrick was on there as "Executive Consultant." I'm gonna guess that means she said "pay me something or I sue." In which case I say, "More power to her!"

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I went right to the end credits, and saw that Gail Patrick was on there as "Executive Consultant." I'm gonna guess that means she said "pay me something or I sue." In which case I say, "More power to her!"

What happen to the "Jackson" at the end of Gail Patrick?

And from what I remember, she was a stickler for facts and realism. The "Matlock" episode's court room scenes are far from realistic and that's probably why they wanted Gail's opinion or experience.

Edited May 5, 2022 by dttruman

[Milburn Stone]

1 minute ago, dttruman said:

What happen to the "Jackson" at the end of Gail Patrick?

It was a reversion to the norm for her. As an actress in the thirties and forties, she went by Gail Patrick.

[Egg McMuffin]

Monte Markham, he of the crooked smile. No thanks.