S05.E06: Family

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; The wonderful face off in the magic shop at the end and the too beautiful scene where Tara and Willow dance on air.

The Bad; My Name is Earl aside rednecks get a hard time on US TV and this is no exception.

Best line; Will "See that's where you're the dummy"

Women good/men bad; Hugely misogynistic, the whole family lying to their womenfolk to keep them enslaved. Donny threatens to beat his own sister, Xander threatens to break him into pieces if he tries (and this is why we love Xander!). We learn for the first time that Hank is in Spain 'living the cliché' with his secretary. According to Buffy Hank now 'bailed' on the Summers girls.

Jeez!; The demon's sores are icky

Kinky dinky; Tara calls Willow a 'vixen'. Riley meets Sandy the vampwhore at Willy's. Of course Sandy is the poor girl Vampwillow bit at the Bronze in Dopplegangland which is some pretty damn brilliant continuity. Spike and Harmony have sex but he's secretly thinking about Buffy. Buffy promises Riley 'outfits' in return for his help, looks like Xander and Anya aren't the only ones who like to play dress-up? (The Duchess and the Highwayman? The schoolgirl and the Strict Headmaster? Princess Leia in the gold bikini? The cowboy and the rancher's daughter?)

Captain Subtext; Maybe it's just me but I always thought there were hints of attraction between Buffy, Glory and her Key? It starts here with Buffy describing Glory as Cordeliaesque (and one day Cordy

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

too will be a hell-goddess).

She also says that she's 'exciting and new'. Tara's mega-cute story of Miss Kitty is obviously Dawn once again. Spike saves Buffy for the first time.

Apocalypses; 5,

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy: 15 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;1

Kills: one demon each for Buffy and Spike (does the 3rd just run away?) Buffy: 86 vamps, 30 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 4 vamps Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, a demon, a demon Anya: a demon Riley; 12 vamps + 7 demons Spike; 1 demon (now in the service of the Scoobies)

Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 6 Giles: 3 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 9 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths; Harmony kills the poor sales clerk 84;

Total number of scoobies: 7 Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Riley

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1; Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara

What the fanficcers thought; Once read an interesting one where Tara's family were actually Texas Chainsaw Massacre types and by the end whilst they'd been wiped out the Scoobies had lost everyone except Willow, Tara, Dawn and Riley. In the follow up story Willow and Tara resurrect Buffy 'Bargaining 1&2' style and she discovers Dawn has become a cross between Lara Croft and Ash from the Evil Dead series (but still with both hands). Meanwhile Faith defeated the First and shared her power with the Potentials but was presumed to have perished in the collapsing Hellmouth. But whose is that gorgeous female hand holding a scythe breaking the surface at the Sunnydale crater...?

Questions and observations; Of course an unknown Amy Adams plays cousin Beth, hasn't she done well since! Riley comments that a lot of young people are experimenting with shortness nowadays. Well HE certainly isn't! Dawn thinks only losers drink alcohol but seems to have a great time during her first visit to the Bronze. Contrast Tara now to the girl we first meet in season 4 her stutter is gone. When her family come back so does it. Looking at SMG exercising in this ep you really believe she could be a Slayer, her athleticism is incredible. But she's TOO THIN, like Courtney Cox in some of the later seasons of Friends. Prefer the way she looks in season 1. Just me or do the demons look like clowns? Clever shot when Riley is in Willy's Bar, we think it's Spike at first.

Marks out of 10; 7/10

[lembergwatcher]

Tara and her "demonic essence". One of the worst. Metaphors. For gay lifestyle. Ever.

I guess when it came to Buffy and Angel later seasons Joss acted frequently like some sort of "hit-or-miss" guy. Yes, he made a clear attempt to bow to gay audience with this ep, but I doubt we can call Family one of his "best". Dunno whether it was wise enough to choose an idiot Wicca, who's been practicing magic since she was little and yet failed to do some checking on the matter, to be a lesbian icon of the Buffyverse. Tara turned 20 in that particular episode, she wasn't 7-years-old kiddo, who used to believe everything her asshole daddy told her, she could at least start asking freaking questions (Daddy Maclay's claim had to be built on something after all). She lived in the dorm, free from her family's grasp (no signs of their existence for more than a dozen eps) and had lots of opportunities to do a little digging. Forgive me for being harsh to sweet innocent Tara, but summoning Blind Cadria instead of validating family legend was rather foolish to say the least. Suffice to say it was Tara's ineptitude that nearly got the Scoobs killed, and yet their response was too mild for some reason (Willow's "she just did a spell that went wrong" could be perceived as one of the most inappropriate comments in the series).    

Edited September 16, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Tara and her "demonic essence". One of the worst. Metaphors. For gay lifestyle. Ever.

And, as I've written before, excruciatingly dated and completely unnecessary.  Tara has been explicitly and openly described as Willow's girlfriend in The Yoko Factor, which was nine episodes ago.  That's the length of the entire Angelus arc, ffs.  And Xander opened this season by telling Willow:  "Newsflash, Will. Everybody already knows."

There is absolutely no reason for Joss to do this wink-wink, nudge-nudge "when we say 'Wiccan', we mean 'lesbian', get it?" so-called "subtext" when Tara's sexuality (and Willow's) is already MAIN text.  IMO, that's flat-out offensive, shoving Tara back in the closet world of "metaphor".  

(And I'm not a Wiccan, but after they had raised such a stink over the word "witch" being used derogatorily in BB&B, I can't think they were thrilled to have their religion hijacked for this purpose, either.)

One TWoPPer (truecrystal) used to insist that this was the worst episode of the entire series.  I can't quite get behind that

Spoiler

(it's not even the worst Joss-written/directed episode, as Chosen takes that "honor", as well as being the worst of the series overall; all this is doing is battling Lessons for runner-up.  Or "runner-down", as the case may be.)

if only because having Sandy back, however illogically, is nice and pleasing.  But I don't know on whose behalf I should be most offended for by Buffy's decision to lie about Precious Dawnie's secret:  Riley, whom Buffy's been dating for over a year and sexual with for the past nine months?  Because, let's face it, that "Melinda-across-the-street is too short" lie was just offensively stupid.

Or should I be more pissed that Buffy is lying (again, some more) to Willow and Xander, given that they're…you know, Willow and Xander?  The one of whom has literally brought Buffy back from the dead and the both of whom Buffy credits for her emotional survival.  ("I have you guys.")  What happened to "Let's promise to never not talk again", huh, Slayer?  Well, okay, the Monks of Mindfuck is what happened, but I don't have to be happy about it.

And I've seen some people write that Buffy doesn't tell W/X because she doesn't want to make them have to hide the truth from Tara and Anya.  Which means that Buffy doesn't trust Tara and Anya.  Which not only completely goes against the sappy "we're family" theme of the episode, but begs the larger question of what Tara and Anya are doing in the group, in that case?

Some Giles fans (or Buffy/Giles 'shippers in particular) think it's cool that Giles is the only one that Buffy trusts enough to tell about Dawn.  I see it as spitting in the eyes of W/X and I loathe Giles's enabling Buffy's bullshit by going along with it.  That's why you're only my sixth-favorite character, Tweed Boy.  Grrr.

Also, I have to "love" the bit where the demons knock on the door to the Magic Box, and when Willow opens the door, she can't see them (because of Tara's spell) and Joss gets this "cool" shot of the demons gliding past the oblivious Willow.  Because when somebody knocks on my door and I open it and don't find anyone, I never stick my head outside to see where the jerks ran off to.  Or stand in the doorway.  Or at least close the freaking door!

And since when do demons knock, anyhow?  It's not as if the demons knew about Tara's spell, after all.  Idiocy!

But at least we get "comedy", like when Spike is in the crypt and Harmony comes back from shopping, but don't worry, she didn't actually pay for the stuff, she just killed the clerk!  Because the clerk didn't have friends  or family or anyone who will miss her or hopes or dreams or deserve to live, nuh-huh!  Spike's a harmless "wacky neighbor", it's cool that he gives Harmony a place to rest between her murders!  Hell, if we believe that "family photo" pose at the end of the episode, with Riley absent (he's off drinking at Willy's) but Spike present, Spikey's more than that, he's "family"!

Spoiler

"A lot of Buffy's people are murderers, actually"…well, only two, so far, but that's two too many…

While checking the script (it's not as if I rewatch this shit, obviously), I notice that Harmony goes on to gossip about what she heard from a certain Carol Beets, whom she identifies to Spike as having sired "Brian from the sewer gang".  So again, the depredations of the vampires, their murders, are reduced to casual chit-chat, background noise, "comic" triviality.  

So much for that "every life is precious" ethos that the show used to have, when you even cared about creepazoids like Fritz in I Robot, You Jane and realized that Moloch's corrupting him and disposing of him was a tragedy.  Apparently Joss has crawled so far up Spike's asshole that he really does view humans as nothing more than "Happy Meals on legs" by now.  No wonder James Marsters gave an interview around this time saying that Joss was "starting to see things from Spike's point of view" now.  Yay?

2/10, and I'm being generous at that.  The shit just keeps on coming.

(Even worse in the syndicated version, where one of the few good lines gets snipped [XANDER:  We're building a race of frog people.  It's a good time.])

Edited September 16, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

And I've seen some people write that Buffy doesn't tell W/X because she doesn't want to make them have to hide the truth from Tara and Anya.

I've seen even "better" suggestion: Buffy doesn't tell W/X the truth about Dawn because she doesn't want to put them into danger. Like W/X are some clueless kids with no experience in the field and who have to be "protected" from the world outside with lies. It's not so much about Tara or Anya, it's because W/X are not that special in the Dawnverse. They're too "inferior" to understand the whole concept of "the key" I guess. 

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So much for that "every life is precious" ethos that the show used to have, when you even cared about creepazoids like Fritz in I Robot, You Jane and realized that Moloch's corrupting him and disposing of him was a tragedy.  Apparently Joss has crawled so far up Spike's asshole that he really does view humans as nothing more than "Happy Meals on legs" by now.

The overall dehumanization was one of the saddest things that happened to Buffy in the later seasons. And Spike was only part of the problem. Seems to me the writers decided to prove that humans and humanity as a whole suck per se. Things like respect for people's lives or friendship didn't matter that much from then on. It was only power and supernatural abilities that really mattered in the post-mindfuck Buffyverse. The writing staff was already suffering from misanthropy by the time the fifth season's storyline started to progress.

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Riley, whom Buffy's been dating for over a year and sexual with for the past nine months?  

And once again, I have a problem with the math.  (What part?  The math.)

This is October 16th.  

Spoiler

We learn this from Tara's tombstone in Help.

Buffy has known Riley for over a year, but they didn't start "dating" until fall semester finals were almost upon them.  (They first kiss in Hush, where Riley tries to use "papers" as an excuse for not hanging out with Buffy, only for her to note that the semester is almost over.) They don't get sexual (The I in Team) until after Buffy's 19th birthday, in A New Man.  So more like "dating for 10 months, sexual for 8", to be precise.

But even so.

20 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

It was only power and supernatural abilities that really mattered in the post-mindfuck Buffyverse.

Spoiler

"It's about power" —First!Buffy, Lessons

Never let it be said that S7 was any less honest about stating the Theme of the Season than S1 ("Giles, I'm 16.  I don't want to die") and S2 ("Love Makes You Do The Wacky") were.  The theme itself was of the suck, but it's exactly what they were going for.

And once again, I go with "sigh".

Edited September 17, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

The demons are kind of scary with their tongues sticking out.

 

I remember being disappointed that "this" was Tara's secret, I had hoped she would have a more interesting and more mysterious backstory, especially after her appearance as dream guide in Restless.

 

I loved the scene in which Buffy officially counts Tara as her family.

 

A lesson to pay attention to bit players. Kind of a shame that an actress as good as Amy Acker had to play this very lousy part of "Cousin Beth". 

Hey, Samuel L Jackson played 'man in bar' in Sea of Love. Everyone has to start somewhere.  

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And, as I've written before, excruciatingly dated and completely unnecessary.  Tara has been explicitly and openly described as Willow's girlfriend in The Yoko Factor, which was nine episodes ago.  That's the length of the entire Angelus arc, ffs.  And Xander opened this season by telling Willow:  "Newsflash, Will. Everybody already knows."

There is absolutely no reason for Joss to do this wink-wink, nudge-nudge "when we say 'Wiccan', we mean 'lesbian', get it?" so-called "subtext" when Tara's sexuality (and Willow's) is already MAIN text.  IMO, that's flat-out offensive, shoving Tara back in the closet world of "metaphor".  

(And I'm not a Wiccan, but after they had raised such a stink over the word "witch" being used derogatorily in BB&B, I can't think they were thrilled to have their religion hijacked for this purpose, either.)

One TWoPPer (truecrystal) used to insist that this was the worst episode of the entire series.  I can't quite get behind that

  Hide contents

(it's not even the worst Joss-written/directed episode, as Chosen takes that "honor", as well as being the worst of the series overall; all this is doing is battling Lessons for runner-up.  Or "runner-down", as the case may be.)

if only because having Sandy back, however illogically, is nice and pleasing.  But I don't know on whose behalf I should be most offended for by Buffy's decision to lie about Precious Dawnie's secret:  Riley, whom Buffy's been dating for over a year and sexual with for the past nine months?  Because, let's face it, that "Melinda-across-the-street is too short" lie was just offensively stupid.

Or should I be more pissed that Buffy is lying (again, some more) to Willow and Xander, given that they're…you know, Willow and Xander?  The one of whom has literally brought Buffy back from the dead and the both of whom Buffy credits for her emotional survival.  ("I have you guys.")  What happened to "Let's promise to never not talk again", huh, Slayer?  Well, okay, the Monks of Mindfuck is what happened, but I don't have to be happy about it.

And I've seen some people write that Buffy doesn't tell W/X because she doesn't want to make them have to hide the truth from Tara and Anya.  Which means that Buffy doesn't trust Tara and Anya.  Which not only completely goes against the sappy "we're family" theme of the episode, but begs the larger question of what Tara and Anya are doing in the group, in that case?

Some Giles fans (or Buffy/Giles 'shippers in particular) think it's cool that Giles is the only one that Buffy trusts enough to tell about Dawn.  I see it as spitting in the eyes of W/X and I loathe Giles's enabling Buffy's bullshit by going along with it.  That's why you're only my sixth-favorite character, Tweed Boy.  Grrr.

Also, I have to "love" the bit where the demons knock on the door to the Magic Box, and when Willow opens the door, she can't see them (because of Tara's spell) and Joss gets this "cool" shot of the demons gliding past the oblivious Willow.  Because when somebody knocks on my door and I open it and don't find anyone, I never stick my head outside to see where the jerks ran off to.  Or stand in the doorway.  Or at least close the freaking door!

And since when do demons knock, anyhow?  It's not as if the demons knew about Tara's spell, after all.  Idiocy!

But at least we get "comedy", like when Spike is in the crypt and Harmony comes back from shopping, but don't worry, she didn't actually pay for the stuff, she just killed the clerk!  Because the clerk didn't have friends  or family or anyone who will miss her or hopes or dreams or deserve to live, nuh-huh!  Spike's a harmless "wacky neighbor", it's cool that he gives Harmony a place to rest between her murders!  Hell, if we believe that "family photo" pose at the end of the episode, with Riley absent (he's off drinking at Willy's) but Spike present, Spikey's more than that, he's "family"!

  Reveal hidden contents

"A lot of Buffy's people are murderers, actually"…well, only two, so far, but that's two too many…

While checking the script (it's not as if I rewatch this shit, obviously), I notice that Harmony goes on to gossip about what she heard from a certain Carol Beets, whom she identifies to Spike as having sired "Brian from the sewer gang".  So again, the depredations of the vampires, their murders, are reduced to casual chit-chat, background noise, "comic" triviality.  

So much for that "every life is precious" ethos that the show used to have, when you even cared about creepazoids like Fritz in I Robot, You Jane and realized that Moloch's corrupting him and disposing of him was a tragedy.  Apparently Joss has crawled so far up Spike's asshole that he really does view humans as nothing more than "Happy Meals on legs" by now.  No wonder James Marsters gave an interview around this time saying that Joss was "starting to see things from Spike's point of view" now.  Yay?

2/10, and I'm being generous at that.  The shit just keeps on coming.

(Even worse in the syndicated version, where one of the few good lines gets snipped [XANDER:  We're building a race of frog people.  It's a good time.])

This is by NO MEANS the worst ep of the series, it's enjoyable and has real emotional resonance. And yes, Harmony's remark is funny in a blackly comic way, like Buffy sitting in the outline of one of 

Spoiler

Dru's murder victims on the train. 

You can't expect Spike to care when he hasn't got a soul. And it makes sense that Buffy has to confide in someone and Giles is the obvious person, not least that he has the least interaction with Dawn so can pretend more easily. 

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I've seen even "better" suggestion: Buffy doesn't tell W/X the truth about Dawn because she doesn't want to put them into danger. Like W/X are some clueless kids with no experience in the field and who have to be "protected" from the world outside with lies. It's not so much about Tara or Anya, it's because W/X are not that special in the Dawnverse. They're too "inferior" to understand the whole concept of "the key" I guess. 

 

The overall dehumanization was one of the saddest things that happened to Buffy in the later seasons. And Spike was only part of the problem. Seems to me the writers decided to prove that humans and humanity as a whole suck per se. Things like respect for people's lives or friendship didn't matter that much from then on. It was only power and supernatural abilities that really mattered in the post-mindfuck Buffyverse. The writing staff was already suffering from misanthropy by the time the fifth season's storyline started to progress.

That's not fair, Xander and Willow are still important, Dawn doesn't change that, it's just that the fewer people who know the easier the secret is to keep, they don't know ANYTHING about Dawnie yet. 

[lembergwatcher]

19 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

it's just that the fewer people who know the easier the secret is to keep

Why Xander and Willow of all people suddenly have to be the ones who belong to the oblivious majority?

Edited September 17, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Xander literally nearly died from taking a Ferrula-Gemina blast meant for Buffy, less than a month before.  I think that might merit his inclusion in the circle of trust, if the past five years somehow didn't.

As for Willow, as the redhead herself recently said, "there's a whole best friend exemption!"  Hmm, I wonder if Giles went along with Buffy's "they'd all get weird around her" hooey because he was still peeved at Willow's "to hell with Giles!" when she was arguing against Buffy's training schedule taking priority.  Don't cross the Watcher, Will…they play dirty.

[lembergwatcher]

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Hell, if we believe that "family photo" pose at the end of the episode, with Riley absent (he's off drinking at Willy's) but Spike present, Spikey's more than that, he's "family"!

Yeah. He's definitely become a "family member" to the Scoobs, although I fail to recall why exactly did Captain Peroxide get so lucky?

And why all of a sudden is Spikey's "confirmation" enough for the Scoobs to believe Tara's purely human without questions? Because Spike, you know, he never lies. Never has, never will.

Edited September 17, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

True, aside from Spike's not exactly-untrammeled reputation for sterling honesty, there's also the fact that he really doesn't know jack about how his chip works or when.  Look at how many times since he's been chipped that he's been surprised to find it firing (trying to eat/rape/sire Willow, trying to brain Xander with a wrench, trying to point a plastic gun at Xander) or not firing. (when he discovered he could hit demons).  Being affected by the chip doesn't make Spike an expert on it.  For example, could Spike attack Dawn?  She's not human, either.

Gee, it's a pity that Willow doesn't know a spell that will help her detect demons…oh, wait.

[lembergwatcher]

23 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Hmm, I wonder if Giles went along with Buffy's "they'd all get weird around her" hooey because he was still peeved at Willow's "to hell with Giles!" when she was arguing against Buffy's training schedule taking priority.  Don't cross the Watcher, Will…they play dirty.

Giles wanted to play a bigger part in the whole Scooby thing since he's lost both of his jobs in season 3 and had to live a life of a single retiree in season 4, I guess. So he used the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon. It probably made him feel somehow "superior", unlike those two pesky kids...

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:33 AM, Halting Hex said:

Xander literally nearly died from taking a Ferrula-Gemina blast meant for Buffy, less than a month before.  I think that might merit his inclusion in the circle of trust, if the past five years somehow didn't.

As for Willow, as the redhead herself recently said, "there's a whole best friend exemption!"  Hmm, I wonder if Giles went along with Buffy's "they'd all get weird around her" hooey because he was still peeved at Willow's "to hell with Giles!" when she was arguing against Buffy's training schedule taking priority.  Don't cross the Watcher, Will…they play dirty.

I agree but you would still limit the information, if

Spoiler

Tara never knew about Dawn she could never betray her either by torture or inadvertently

. She had to tell someone though and Giles is the expert. 

On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:49 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Yeah. He's definitely become a "family member" to the Scoobs, although I fail to recall why exactly did Captain Peroxide get so lucky?

And why all of a sudden is Spikey's "confirmation" enough for the Scoobs to believe Tara's purely human without questions? Because Spike, you know, he never lies. Never has, never will.

 

You have to ask yourself, what would be in it for him to lie?

On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:57 AM, Halting Hex said:

True, aside from Spike's not exactly-untrammeled reputation for sterling honesty, there's also the fact that he really doesn't know jack about how his chip works or when.  Look at how many times since he's been chipped that he's been surprised to find it firing (trying to eat/rape/sire Willow, trying to brain Xander with a wrench, trying to point a plastic gun at Xander) or not firing. (when he discovered he could hit demons).  Being affected by the chip doesn't make Spike an expert on it.  For example, could Spike attack Dawn?  She's not human, either.

Gee, it's a pity that Willow doesn't know a spell that will help her detect demons…oh, wait.

Dawn is human. the monks said so. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Halting Hex]

Everything after "limit the information" should be spoilered up there ^.  As for telling Giles,

Spoiler

ironically, that's what ends up causing all the trouble:

•  Giles writes about it in his diary

• Dawn reads the diary

• Dawn tells Ben

• Ben half-tells Murk (letting on that the Key is human)

• Murk, despite being stabbed (damn, I hope you're not as sucky a doctor as you are an assassin, Benjy…), is able to tell Glory this part

• Glory gets off her skanky lop-sided ass and decides to brainsuck random Scoobies.

• Crazy!Tara spills the beans

Everything would have gone far better if Buffy had kept her yap shut.  No swan dive off the tower, no "came back wrong", no Ice Penis up the butthole at the Bronze.  Never trust a man who keeps written records, Buff.  Sigh.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

1 minute ago, Halting Hex said:

Everything after "limit the information" should be spoilered up there ^.  As for telling Giles,

  Hide contents

 

ironically, that's what ends up causing all the trouble:

•  Giles writes about it in his diary

• Dawn reads the diary

• Dawn tells Ben

• Ben half-tells Murk (letting on that the Key is human)

• Murk, despite being stabbed (damn, I hope you're not as sucky a doctor as you are an assassin, Benjy…), is able to tell Glory this part

• Glory gets off her skanky lop-sided ass and decides to brainsuck random Scoobies.

• Crazy!Tara spills the beans

Everything would have gone far better if Buffy had kept her yap shut.  No swan dive off the tower, no "came back wrong", no Ice Penis up the butthole at the Bronze.  Never trust a man who keeps written records, Buff.  Sigh.

 

She just underestimated the Dawnster that's all. And there is NOTHING wrong with Clare Kramer's backside, haven't you watched Bring It On?

[Halting Hex]

Hey, I'm just going by what

Spoiler

Spike

said.  Are you calling him a liar? ;)

And you still need to fix that spoiler, above.

[lembergwatcher]

49 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You have to ask yourself, what would be in it for him to lie?

I think that would be a good reason to blackmail Tara over, you know, returning the favor (in one way or another) to begin with. Tara was a witch, not some random girl, therefore her being the one with the debt could give Spike some obvious opportunities in the long run (casual sex or removing the "sodding chip" by magical means to name a few).

[Joe Hellandback]

1 minute ago, lembergwatcher said:

I think that would be a good reason to blackmail Tara over, you know, returning the favor (in one way or another) to begin with. Tara was a witch, not some random girl, therefore her being the one with the debt could give Spike some obvious opportunities in the long run (casual sex or removing the "sodding chip" by magical means to name a few).

You're reading too much into this, he helped Tara because it made Buffy (and Dawn) happy and he was in love with her. 

[lembergwatcher]

55 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You're reading too much into this, he helped Tara because it made Buffy (and Dawn) happy and he was in love with her.

How can one love another person having no soul, no conscience and no compassion? Him lusting after Buffy had nothing to do with love whatsoever. The obsession, stalking and other forms of manic behavior are definitely not the signs of a true love (and I've never met a single girl or woman who can find such kind of "courtship" even remotely romantic).

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You're reading too much into this, he helped Tara because it made Buffy (and Dawn) happy and he was in love with her. 

I think you could be reading too much into this, no offense.  Spike went to the shop not to help Tara, but because he heard that Buffy was in danger.  He fought the demons to help Buffy.  And then everyone was yapping and he figured the easiest way to solve the problem was to "test" Tara against his chip.

Now, did the chip fire accurately…or did Spike do a bit of acting and give the result that Tara obviously wanted, and therefore Willow probably wanted, and therefore Buffy likely wanted as well?  Spike is certainly capable of shamming.

And of course he can want to make Buffy happy without necessarily being "in love" with her.  And "helping Tara" in the idealistic sense probably didn't factor into it, either way.

Again, I'm not saying that Spike has to be faking, just that he could be.  It just makes sense to use a more reliable source than Spike for certainty.  Especially as Willow still knows that handy Thespia spell,

Spoiler

which she subsequently uses again in Same Time, Same Place.

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

How can one love another person having no soul, no conscience and no compassion? Him lusting after Buffy had nothing to do with love whatsoever. The obsession, stalking and other forms of manic behavior are definitely not the signs of a true love (and I've never met a single girl or woman who can find such kind of "courtship" even remotely romantic).

Because Spike is an unusual vampire as I think Marti Noxon remarks and we'll talk about more when we get there. And there's plenty of Spuffers out there. 

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I think you could be reading too much into this, no offense.  Spike went to the shop not to help Tara, but because he heard that Buffy was in danger.  He fought the demons to help Buffy.  And then everyone was yapping and he figured the easiest way to solve the problem was to "test" Tara against his chip.

Now, did the chip fire accurately…or did Spike do a bit of acting and give the result that Tara obviously wanted, and therefore Willow probably wanted, and therefore Buffy likely wanted as well?  Spike is certainly capable of shamming.

And of course he can want to make Buffy happy without necessarily being "in love" with her.  And "helping Tara" in the idealistic sense probably didn't factor into it, either way.

Again, I'm not saying that Spike has to be faking, just that he could be.  It just makes sense to use a more reliable source than Spike for certainty.  Especially as Willow still knows that handy Thespia spell,

  Hide contents

which she subsequently uses again in Same Time, Same Place.

I agree with your reasoning although I doubt he was faking the pain.

[lembergwatcher]

My resentment towards Xanya has always been very strong. I think Xander's relationship even with someone like cousin Beth would be 1,000 times healthier than with the demonic working gal.

And then I've learned that NB had an opportunity to see a lot of Amy's skin in Psycho Beach Party...

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Wow, I did not know AA had done bottomless so early in her career.  Top that, Isla Fisher!

Beth's a useful solution for any disliked 'ships.  If only Spike hadn't given Tara that "test", Tara could have gone home with her family and focused on "controlling her demon side" and in-between time, trying to seduce Beth.

(What do you mean, "they're cousins, it's incest"?  Tara's [allegedly] a demon, ffs!  What's a little [not-actually-illegal] cousin-cest in those parts of Redneck Flats, anyhow? Lighten up, buttercup. ;) )

It's now been five years since Amy has been nominated for an Academy Award™.  (The last time was American Hustle in 2013.) Can't be slacking if you're ever going to win one, Lois Lane.  Tsk, tsk.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:05 PM, lembergwatcher said:

My resentment towards Xanya has always been very strong. I think Xander's relationship even with someone like cousin Beth would be 1,000 times healthier than with the demonic working gal.

And then I've learned that NB had an opportunity to see a lot of Amy's skin in Psycho Beach Party...

 

Also staring Thomas Gibson, perhaps they became drinking buddies and that's how NB got his Criminal Minds role? 

On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:59 PM, Halting Hex said:

Wow, I did not know AA had done bottomless so early in her career.  Top that, Isla Fisher!

Beth's a useful solution for any disliked 'ships.  If only Spike hadn't given Tara that "test", Tara could have gone home with her family and focused on "controlling her demon side" and in-between time, trying to seduce Beth.

(What do you mean, "they're cousins, it's incest"?  Tara's [allegedly] a demon, ffs!  What's a little [not-actually-illegal] cousin-cest in those parts of Redneck Flats, anyhow? Lighten up, buttercup. ;) )

It's now been five years since Amy has been nominated for an Academy Award™.  (The last time was American Hustle in 2013.) Can't be slacking if you're ever going to win one, Lois Lane.  Tsk, tsk.

American Hustle of course co-starring Elizabeth Rhom and Jeremy Renner. Cousins aren't incest, siblings, parents/children, grandparents/grandkids only according to SVU. Unsure if magical sister/daughter created by monks from Slayer blood counts? 

[Halting Hex]

So I've gotten this far with Shan's reaction vids (sorry, Chris, she's got video), which means I'm now seeing (parts of) episodes that I haven't seen in a while, because I hardly seek them out on my own.  Which gives me a chance for fresh venom, so…yay?

I mean, I knew I was upset that Buffy doesn't tell W/X about Dawn, but even if I had tuned into this one, I'd be real tempted to skip past that awful W/T "half-a-camel" convo at the start, and so I might well have missed this:

Quote

TARA: Do you think Buffy found out anything tonight?
WILLOW: At the factory? I don't know. If there was something, I figured she'd call us.

Tara lies down, putting her head on Willow's shoulder, and they snuggle up together.

Cut to Joyce's house, night. Giles and Buffy sit in the living room. They talk quietly.
GILES: Uh, I don't know what to say.

So Joss is actually spotlighting that Willow expects to be kept in the loop, and that Buffy's betraying her trust by keeping Dawn's secret.  Interesting.  Character-destructive and I can't really see the point (is the idea supposed to be that Tara isn't 'family' yet, but she is by the end of the ep?  But that still ignores Willow in the equation…), but still, interesting.

And while I'd remembered how Spike plans to see Buffy get killed but then "can't help himself" and saves her (because HE WUVS HER SO MUCH!), I'd forgotten that after Spike slays the Lei-Ach demon, he looks at Buffy, expecting to see some gratitude…but of course, Buffy has no idea he's even there, since she can't see any demons right now.  Heh.

But OTOH, this bit of twisting things around to basically say "Spike's cool with us" is even more annoying than I remembered:

Quote

BETH: Well. I hope you'll all be happy hanging out with a disgusting demon.

ANYA: E-excuse me. What kind?
BETH: What?
ANYA: What kind of demon is she? There's a lot of different kinds. Some are very, very evil. And some have been considered to be useful members of society. (Smiles proudly. Xander turns to smile back at her.)

Hey, dumbass!  I'm going to say this slow, because apparently you are:  You…are…NOT…a…demon…any…more!  Your being a "useful member of society" (allegedly, and don't push it) has diddly-squat to do with whether Tara, if she actually was a demon, could be one.  This whole exchange is only there to make Spike look good.  (Oooh, he's a demon, but he saved Buffy! Swoon!  Spuffy4EVA!!!1!!)  Go fuck yourself, Joss.

Especially since Anya's supposed demonic nature is promptly forgotten, for sake of the plot.  Once Spike has uncovered the "truth" by punching Tara in the mush, we get this:

Quote

TARA: (softly, to Willow) I'm not a demon.
WILLOW: (smiling) You're not a demon.
TARA: He hurt my nose.
WILLOW: Aw.

I mean, Anya is literally standing right there!  (Well, a little past Xander, but still close enough to hear this.)  How come she isn't vociferously objecting to W/T being all happy that Tara isn't a demon, after all?  Didn't we just get through with hearing how demons can be useful members of society and all?  What are the witches, a bunch of anti-demonists?

But of course Joss wants to calm the audience and reassure everyone that Tara is perfectly "normal" and everything is fine.  We were only saying nice things about demons before to make people like Spike; we don't want to have anybody have a reason to dislike St. Tara, oh, no!  

So I guess the episode is something of a miracle, after all.  It made me annoyed because Anya shuts up, of all things.  Talk about a loooooooong shot…

And, as I remembered, that floaty dance is stupid beyond stupid.  How come nobody's reacting?  Oh, because they're all "Wiccans" and so they're unsurprised by magic, is that it?  Then how come W/T are the only couple floating, then?  Is their Wicca-Wuv so much more pure than all the other Wiccans' Wicca-Wuv?  Is everybody else only there for the empowering Bundt cakes?

And BTW, if "Wiccan" is supposed to be "code" for gay, it's interesting that every other couple on the dance floor looks to be heterosexual.  Maybe GLAAD should hold off on giving Joss those awards, just for a bit.  

Spoiler

That way, they won't be wanting to take them back, next season…

Edited November 25, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Following up on a theory I raised last time:

On 11/25/2018 at 8:11 AM, Halting Hex said:

Joss is actually spotlighting that Willow expects to be kept in the loop, and that Buffy's betraying her trust by keeping Dawn's secret.  Interesting.  Character-destructive and I can't really see the point (is the idea supposed to be that Tara isn't 'family' yet, but she is by the end of the ep?

But now I realize this doesn't work, because Buffy (and Giles) keep right on keeping the secret from Tara (and Willow).  If the point of the episode is that Buffy's attitude towards Tara has changed, that she now considers Tara "family", then how come Buffy's actions towards Tara don't change?  How come she keeps lying to Tara exactly the way she was doing before?  (And of course, to Willow and Xander as well, which really gets me ticked, but it's Tara's episode, so let's keep the focus there.)

I bet David Hines had something to say about this.  Let's see:

Quote

The bigger problem, I think, is that Whedon is so focused on the subtext that he overlooks a major problem with his text -- namely, that his beginning and ending don't balance out. At the opening of the show, Tara feels excluded from the Scooby Gang, and the feeling is somewhat mutual. Tara doesn't feel that she fits in, and Buffy and Xander are uncomfortable with their imminent attending of Tara's birthday party. Xander expresses the problem admirably in a nice little scene with Buffy and Giles: "With Willow, it's like she's got this whole new thing in her life -- but she's still Willow, so I can always figure her out. But Tara... I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those." It's not that the non-Willow Scoobies don't like Tara; they like her fine -- they just don't know her at all.

[Plot recap snipped] Her father demands she come home, but the Scoobies intercede; he'll have to go through them first, because, as Buffy puts it, "We're family."

You see the problem here? The Scoobies don't know Tara any better than they did at the beginning of the episode! They didn't know about Tara's fear she was part demon; it wasn't part of their problem to begin with. The problem was that the only person who actually got to know Tara was Willow, and that didn't change. The person whose rights Buffy, Xander, and Giles stand up for at 8:50 is no less a stranger to them than she was at the top of the hour. They've already gotten Tara's birthday gifts by then -- but if they hadn't, or had to start from scratch, they'd still be at just as much of a loss when it came to figuring out what to get her as they were in Act One. Standing with her against her obnoxious dad is one thing (as a legal adult, she doesn't have to go with him, and if he tries to force her it's kidnapping); deciding they're suddenly "family" is quite another.

So I guess that's the real issue; the reason Buffy doesn't act more inclusively towards Tara is because Tara really hasn't become one of the group or anything.  The whole "we're family" line is just something Buffy pulled out of her ass to trump Dad Maclay's "blood kin" line.  (And, looking at it, you realize how awkward a line "blood kin" is;  Joss wanted something that sort of meant "family" without saying "family", so that Buffy could say the episode title and "win" that way.  

Spoiler

It's kind of like how in Flooded, Doug Petrie has Willow specifically say that Giles should be saying "congratulations" wrt the resurrection, rather than the more obvious "thank you", so that Giles doesn't have to admit he is thankful to have Buffy back, and he can keep up his righteous anger riff "rank arrogant amateur" sneering.

Not so great once you see the writer's hand trying to force the issue, IMO.)

So basically, Buffy is lying here, just as much as the Maclays are, just as much Spike ("I totally want Buffy dead; I'm just here to watch") is, just as much as Riley-sneaking-off-to-Willy's-to-drown-his-sorrows is.  When two of the most honest people in your episode are Glory and Harmony, you know you've got a problem.

(I'll give Willow a pass, because she clearly did love Tara and so wasn't lying about that.  I don't know if "family" is quite how Willow would define it, but it's how she hopes Buffy would feel, so that's good enough for me.)

(Of course, then you get into the reciprocality issues.  Willow obviously considers Buffy an essential part of her life; does this mean that if she thinks Buffy loves Riley, then therefore Willow considers Riley to be "family" from her p.o.v.?

Spoiler

Going to make Into the Woods suck for her, then.  But we don't actually see Willow's reaction there or in Triangle; the only one who expresses their own emotions about Riley leaving is Xander. [Tara and Dawn give Buffy sympathy, but that's a different issue, IMO.]

Seems a bit shaky, IMO.  And I love Willow and the Willow/Riley friendship.  But I'm starting to feel the whole concept here is an oversell.  JMO.)

Edited November 29, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:11 PM, Halting Hex said:

So I've gotten this far with Shan's reaction vids (sorry, Chris, she's got video), which means I'm now seeing (parts of) episodes that I haven't seen in a while, because I hardly seek them out on my own.  Which gives me a chance for fresh venom, so…yay?

I mean, I knew I was upset that Buffy doesn't tell W/X about Dawn, but even if I had tuned into this one, I'd be real tempted to skip past that awful W/T "half-a-camel" convo at the start, and so I might well have missed this:

So Joss is actually spotlighting that Willow expects to be kept in the loop, and that Buffy's betraying her trust by keeping Dawn's secret.  Interesting.  Character-destructive and I can't really see the point (is the idea supposed to be that Tara isn't 'family' yet, but she is by the end of the ep?  But that still ignores Willow in the equation…), but still, interesting.

And while I'd remembered how Spike plans to see Buffy get killed but then "can't help himself" and saves her (because HE WUVS HER SO MUCH!), I'd forgotten that after Spike slays the Lei-Ach demon, he looks at Buffy, expecting to see some gratitude…but of course, Buffy has no idea he's even there, since she can't see any demons right now.  Heh.

But OTOH, this bit of twisting things around to basically say "Spike's cool with us" is even more annoying than I remembered:

Hey, dumbass!  I'm going to say this slow, because apparently you are:  You…are…NOT…a…demon…any…more!  Your being a "useful member of society" (allegedly, and don't push it) has diddly-squat to do with whether Tara, if she actually was a demon, could be one.  This whole exchange is only there to make Spike look good.  (Oooh, he's a demon, but he saved Buffy! Swoon!  Spuffy4EVA!!!1!!)  Go fuck yourself, Joss.

Especially since Anya's supposed demonic nature is promptly forgotten, for sake of the plot.  Once Spike has uncovered the "truth" by punching Tara in the mush, we get this:

I mean, Anya is literally standing right there!  (Well, a little past Xander, but still close enough to hear this.)  How come she isn't vociferously objecting to W/T being all happy that Tara isn't a demon, after all?  Didn't we just get through with hearing how demons can be useful members of society and all?  What are the witches, a bunch of anti-demonists?

But of course Joss wants to calm the audience and reassure everyone that Tara is perfectly "normal" and everything is fine.  We were only saying nice things about demons before to make people like Spike; we don't want to have anybody have a reason to dislike St. Tara, oh, no!  

So I guess the episode is something of a miracle, after all.  It made me annoyed because Anya shuts up, of all things.  Talk about a loooooooong shot…

And, as I remembered, that floaty dance is stupid beyond stupid.  How come nobody's reacting?  Oh, because they're all "Wiccans" and so they're unsurprised by magic, is that it?  Then how come W/T are the only couple floating, then?  Is their Wicca-Wuv so much more pure than all the other Wiccans' Wicca-Wuv?  Is everybody else only there for the empowering Bundt cakes?

And BTW, if "Wiccan" is supposed to be "code" for gay, it's interesting that every other couple on the dance floor looks to be heterosexual.  Maybe GLAAD should hold off on giving Joss those awards, just for a bit.  

  Hide contents

That way, they won't be wanting to take them back, next season…

 

Because this is Sunnydale and floating lesbos is probably the least of their worries, if The Bronze can get through the night without a supernatural death they're probably ecstatic. 

TB's reaction when he recognises AA is priceless!

Edited December 4, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

Always wanted to say that: if Amy's cleavage happens to be one of the very few positive things about one of the supposed landmark (written & directed by Joss) epsodes of the series, than JW should have called it quits after the previous season's ending. JMO, of course.

[Loandbehold]

4 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

if Amy's cleavage happens to be one of the very few positive things

Wouldn't that be two of the very few positive things? Asking for a friend.

And, on that point, why didn't Willow describe Cousin Amy as a "cleavagy slut-bomb." It wouldn't be the first time she used that expression.

[lembergwatcher]

18 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

And, on that point, why didn't Willow describe Cousin Amy as a "cleavagy slut-bomb." It wouldn't be the first time she used that expression.

Probably because Willow is in "devoted girlfriend" mood and doesn't want Tara to have second thoughts due to Willow's admiration of Cousin Beth's cleavage.

[Halting Hex]

Well, it's not as if Tara herself hasn't put her own set of Maclay Mammaries to good use, after all.  She knows what Willow likes,

Spoiler

even if Will won't expressly declare herself "a breast girl" until next year.

[Halting Hex]

On 3/20/2019 at 12:21 PM, Loandbehold said:

On 3/20/2019 at 8:12 AM, lembergwatcher said:

if Amy's cleavage happens to be one of the very few positive things

Wouldn't that be two of the very few positive things?

No, because the cleavage is a singular object.  It may be defined by occurring between two (lovely) Beth-boobs, but there's only one cleavage on view here.

(Am I being a grammar pedant because it gives me a chance to talk about boobs…or am I talking about boobs because it gives me an excuse to be a grammar pedant? "Yes." [/Buffy, Graduation Day, Part 1])

[lembergwatcher]

That episode would get a higher score from me, if instead of some weak/lame metaphoras for gay lifestyle Joss tried to explore the topic of abuse. 'Cause Tara's reaction on Donnie (not only is she obviously upset, but visibly afraid) makes me think about very nasty stuff he probably did to his sister (molestation and/or rape included). I wonder whether Willow and Tara talked about Tara's family on other occasions, not just during the birthday dance and what dark/disturbing things that conversation could reveal? Is this so hard to ask something like "Tara, what happened?" or "What did those people do to you?", after all?

OTOH coming from dysfunctional families could have been a catalyst for developing a deeper friendship between Tara and Xander (sadly the whole thing was overlooked). And I still can't figure out the whole point of Xander's "tangled web of lies" regarding present for Tara. Is he afraid Willow will scorn him for not chosing present before everyone else?

The ideal outcome IMO would have been for Tara to cast some permanent distraction/cloaking spell making Maclays think Anya is Tara and grab the ex-demon instead of Willow's lover and leave Sunnydale with Anya bound and gagged for good.   

[Halting Hex]

Now, now…Anya's "a useful member of society", don't you know?  The ep tells us so.  🙂

And besides…do we really want to have Tara go home for Yule and discover that Anya has sold the family's horses to the local glue factory for a cheap buck?  Think of the horsies, won't you?

[lembergwatcher]

There is nothing to prevent Anya from being a useful member of society while being a part of the Maclay family. She can clean the house, cook and spend some quality time with the two Maclay males and cousin Beth.

Besides I have a feeling Tara won't go home either for Yule or any time soon, horsies or no horsies.

[Halting Hex]

So…

…Tara lies to Willow for an entire year, sabotages spells that might help find a murderous Adam on the loose, cringes when Willow calls her "one of the good guys", puts a curse on all the Scoobies and nearly gets them killed…

…but that's okay, she was just scared because her father told her she was a demon, we understand!  And he was lying anyway, the bastard!  Tara's not a demon, at all!  Hooray!

Gee, it's too bad poor Tara had to go through all that pain and loneliness and self-loathing for nothing, isn't it?  If only there was some way she could have investigated on her own and found out if she really was a demon, or if Dad was just being mean and controlling.

If only, say, Tara knew a spell that detects demons…

Yeah, big ol' plothole there, isn't it?

Episode 70, Tara sabotages the Lesbia Thespia spell because she knows it will reveal her demonhood to Willow.

Episode 84, Tara isn't a demon, after all!  Who could have known?

I mean, Tara not only knows the spell, she's literally still got the powder, since she dumped it under her bed while Willow wasn't looking.  And if she needs more, I'm sure Mr. Bogarty at Uncle Bob's Magic Castle will sell it to her.

And if the spell requires two people, just grab Cheryl or Nicole from Wicca group and tell her you're scrying for "magical energy".  (The spell text makes no reference to demons.)  Say the spell, watch the light show reveal your dirty demon secret (or not), and give the other girl that empowering Bundt cake you promised her and send her along.  Do it twice, to double-check.  Then, when the evidence makes it clear there's something rotten in Redneck Flats, start writing that "Dear Dad, fuck you!" letter you've been wanting to send him for years, already.

Or an even simpler solution, post-Who Are You:

Quote

Knocking.  TARA opens her door, revealing SPIKE.

TARA:  S-s-s-Spike!  Glad you c-c-c-

SPIKE (grumpy):  Invitation.

TARA: Oh, r-right!  C-c-c-come in!

(Spike enters.  Tara closes the door.)

SPIKE:  So, you said I could get some blood?  Planning to open a vein, are you, Emo Girl?

TARA:  N-no!  I n-n-n-need h-h-

SPIKE:  Spit it out, luv.  I may be immortal but I don't have all day.

TARA (with an effort): May…be…demon.  Need…to…know.  Spell.  You…help.

SPIKE:  Ah.  

TARA:  N-now y-you s-s-sit—

SPIKE:  Eh, let's speed things, shall we?

(Spike punches her HARD, right in the nose.  Tara falls, bleeding profusely.  Spike HOWLS in pain, and falls to the floor even harder.)

TARA: Ouch…

SPIKE:  Nope, not a demon.  OWWW! God!

TARA (with wonder):  I'm not a demon…

SPIKE:  Sodding chip!  Now where's that bloody blood, already?

But seriously, "Tara is the victim of a cruel hoax" really doesn't work when you've made Tara knowing (and sabotaging!) a "demon-detection" spell into a freaking plot point, eight months ago.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

20 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

TARA:  S-s-s-Spike!  Glad you c-c-c-

SPIKE (grumpy):  Invitation.

TARA: Oh, r-right!  C-c-c-come in!

(Spike enters.  Tara closes the door.)

Actually, as I recall (from an episode of Angel I believe)

Spoiler

vampires only need to be invited in homes of humans---they can just walk into demon residences, no invitation required, so the moment Spike would need an invite to enter Tara's dorm room (it was Tara's room, not T & W's), the "Tara is a demon" lie is blown.

 

[Halting Hex]

Bloody hell! Even more right!

Sheesh.

[lembergwatcher]

I don't wanna sound callous, but how do we call a person in her early twenties who has a mindset of a 7-years-old?

Since Tara is the writers' new pet (along with Spike, Anya and Dawn), one should assume there can be no Tara-bashing and no "Taraphobic" eps. But then Joss comes to town... Family is one of those cases when Team Joss intends to portray someone (Tara) as a merely innocent victim and a very likable person, but the results turn out to be quite the opposite.

6 hours ago, illdoc said:

from an episode of Angel I believe

Yes, there's an episode called Billy in the third season - the one where two hotties (Cordy & Lilah) meet face to face for the first time and Crazy!Wesley chases Fred through Hyperion with the intention of either raping her or beating her to death.  

[watcher1006]

It is funny when Glory questions the demon about who/what Buffy is (a slayer) and then her response is like "What?  Is that all? What an embarrassment!".😊

I understand how Tara's father feels about his daughter being away doing her own thing but is that the same thing that lies behind her cousin Beth's anger toward her? I thought that the relationship of the two women could have been further explored but there's only so much time in one episode. Regarding what happens later in the series:

What Tara does to the Scooby Gang by casting her spell nearly gets them killed. I've always thought that this incident should have come up in the blame game that goes on between Tara and Willow in the middle part of Season 6 after "Once More With Feeling", when Willow's "addiction" to magic threatens to break their relationship apart.

Finally, there is a poignancy to Tara's turning away from her blood family to cast her lot with the Scoobies. Yes, they are the ones who truly treat her as family but in making her choice Tara effectively signs her own death warrant.

[lembergwatcher]

17 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I understand how Tara's father feels about his daughter being away doing her own thing but is that the same thing that lies behind her cousin Beth's anger toward her?

That's a good question. Although we don't know much about either cousin Beth or her relationship with Tara prior to the events of Family to come to any conclusion. Maybe Beth is jealous because Tara was allowed to leave the family nest, enroll into college and generally mind her own business while Beth wasn't. There's the thing called "sisters/cousins' rivalry", you know. Btw, do we even know where are Tara and her family (or blood kin as Daddy Maclay put it) from?

What if Beth is a lesbian just like her beloved cousin but is afraid to come out due to her controlling family while Tara can do whatever she wants being away from her relatives' prowling eyes and that moment too fuels the fire of bitterness?

 

18 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I thought that the relationship of the two women could have been further explored

I can draw up a list of things that could have been further explored on the show but weren't because of time limitations or Team Joss' tendency to sacrifice important things for the sake of stupid jokes or some useless characters (like, say, Anya)... I guess we have a separate thread here called "Missing Opportunities..." or something where you can share your list of things that should've been explored on Buffy.    

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 4/16/2020 at 8:07 PM, Halting Hex said:

Gee, it's too bad poor Tara had to go through all that pain and loneliness and self-loathing for nothing, isn't it?  If only there was some way she could have investigated on her own and found out if she really was a demon, or if Dad was just being mean and controlling.

If only, say, Tara knew a spell that detects demons…

Not just Tara, her mother seems to have believed the nonsense about being a demon too - despite being a witch and having had decades in which to, you know, check. Nothing of this plotline makes any sense. Why does Tara's mother believe the blatant lie about the demon who is supposedly the source of her magic powers, yet teaches Tara magic anyway? Tara didn't even seem to know exactly what kind of demon she was supposed to be. I guess they could have made Tara's problem a curse, not a demon but that way Spike couldn't have saved the day and we all know this was Joss' priority at that point.

Also, a story about oppressed women suffering under the thumb of some hillbilly brutes simply doesn't work when these women can cast a spell to get rid of whoever tries to abuse them.

[lembergwatcher]

18 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, a story about oppressed women suffering under the thumb of some hillbilly brutes simply doesn't work when these women can cast a spell to get rid of whoever tries to abuse them.

Absolutely. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to learn magic means you are capable of many things other people know nothing about. Why suffer under some hillbilly brutes if you know how to turn them into frogs? I mean, even Amy Madison was aware of the preferences magic gave her (as we see in BB&B). Is Tara too lazy or just ignorant? And neither of those explanations make sense... 

Spoiler

The mere fact Tara sincerely believed in her family legend bullshit makes her attempts to lecture Willow on all things magic-related in the following season even more laughable. No wonder Tara's "recipes" paved the way for Dark Willow...

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/17/2020 at 4:36 PM, watcher1006 said:

It is funny when Glory questions the demon about who/what Buffy is (a slayer) and then her response is like "What?  Is that all? What an embarrassment!".😊

I understand how Tara's father feels about his daughter being away doing her own thing but is that the same thing that lies behind her cousin Beth's anger toward her? I thought that the relationship of the two women could have been further explored but there's only so much time in one episode. Regarding what happens later in the series:

 

  Hide contents

What Tara does to the Scooby Gang by casting her spell nearly gets them killed. I've always thought that this incident should have come up in the blame game that goes on between Tara and Willow in the middle part of Season 6 after "Once More With Feeling", when Willow's "addiction" to magic threatens to break their relationship apart.

Finally, there is a poignancy to Tara's turning away from her blood family to cast her lot with the Scoobies. Yes, they are the ones who truly treat her as family but in making her choice Tara effectively signs her own death warrant.

 

That was always the point, we're so used to Buffy being all powerful, she's effortlessly above vamps now, even Dracula. But now we have a young girl of the same age who is so effortlessly more powerful than her. 

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Absolutely. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to learn magic means you are capable of many things other people know nothing about. Why suffer under some hillbilly brutes if you know how to turn them into frogs? I mean, even Amy Madison was aware of the preferences magic gave her (as we see in BB&B). Is Tara too lazy or just ignorant? And neither of those explanations make sense... 

  Hide contents

The mere fact Tara sincerely believed in her family legend bullshit makes her attempts to lecture Willow on all things magic-related in the following season even more laughable. No wonder Tara's "recipes" paved the way for Dark Willow...

 

You have to think of the childhood Tara had, look at how brainwashed cousin Beth is, kudos to Tara for having the strength to break away. 

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/20/2020 at 12:01 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

You have to think of the childhood Tara had, look at how brainwashed cousin Beth is, kudos to Tara for having the strength to break away. 

We don't know whether cousin Beth is just brainwashed or follows Maclay men because it fits her interest/she wants to make Tara miserable. If by "having the strength to break away" you mean cursing her own friends instead of just checking whether Daddy's claims about Tara's supposed demonism make the slightest bit of sense, then yes, of course. Tara has the strength because Buffy sure as hell is stronger than Daddy, Donny and cousin Beth combined.

[lembergwatcher]

I still wonder what exactly did Spike do to win such a complete trust from the gang (apart from sheltering Harmony who had kidnapped Buffy's "adorable" sister Dawn or conspiring with the said Harmony in order to get rid of the sodding chip not so long ago) - so they believe him right away?

Spike says "There's no demon in there" - so be it. How about checking his claim with something, you know, more trustworthy than the words of the centuries-old mass murderer whose lies and manipulations have led to the big argument between the Scoobs several months prior?

No, that's crazy talk... You have to take Spike's word for it.

I mean, everyone was there except for Riley. And not one of them even thought: "Hey, what if Spike was faking it? What if Tara is in fact a demon?? How about checking the whole thing out?" Willow totally could do the checking - by herself or with the little help from Giles or/and Anya...

How come Xander almost got punished with "Willowless weekend" for talking without thinking back in the day (Prophecy Girl) while Saint Tara is freed from her family's grasp (which means we won't see Cousin Beth ever again 😢) and gets "best birthday" for lying and endangering the lives of her friends and loved ones?? And where does she get her money for college from now on?

The "climactic" scene is probably one of the dumbest in the entire series...

There are only two good things about Family that may persuade me to give it a try somewhere in a distant future: adorable Amy Adams (I just picture Cousin Beth and Xander having fun and there's nothing I can do about it) and the immortal line "You selfish bitch" (an accurate characteristics of some of the fan favorites at this point).

[mmecorday]

I was never a Tara fan. Her family had convinced her that she's a demon so she casts a spell on the Scoobs so they can't see demons. Brilliant! It's not like they fight those things or anything. I guess if Tara were around today, she could just take a BuzzFeed quiz to determine what kind of demon she is.

And the Scoobs aren't even angry with Tara after they find out about the spell. She has put their lives in danger and they're all, "It's OK. It's your birthday."

The only thing cute about Willow and Tara's relationship was their cat.

[lembergwatcher]

Something tells me doing a little checking of whether all those claims regarding Tara's supposed demonhood were actually true could've been much easier and cheaper thing to do than casting spells on Buffy & the Gang... 

[Halting Hex]

14 hours ago, mmecorday said:

I was never a Tara fan. Her family had convinced her that she's a demon so she casts a spell on the Scoobs so they can't see demons. Brilliant! It's not like they fight those things or anything.

From The Harvest:

Quote

XANDER:  So vampires are demons?

GILES:  The Slayer fights vampires.  Buffy is the Slayer.

Yeah, fairly obvious problem with "make demons invisible to Buffy" as a "solution".  I mean, what's Buffy supposed to do, now?  Sit at home and knit cunning sweater sets?

Yes, Buffy can fight invisible foes.  But seriously…you couldn't think of a simpler spell?  Willow was doing glamours to hide zits before she could even float a pencil.  How tough would it be for Tara to wait until her "demon" part emerged and just glamour it? 

(And that assumes that the "demon" is even visible;  Buffy had an "aspect of a demon" once that turned out not to be a tail, after all.)

No wonder that

Spoiler

Willow comes up with that "brilliant" plan to "shift everyone who isn't a 15-year-old girl into an alternate dimension" next season. 

Tara had clearly blazed the "screw Occam and his Razor, I have a ridiculously-complex-for-no-reason idea instead" trail here.  Sheesh.

[watcher1006]

On 3/20/2019 at 8:12 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Always wanted to say that: if Amy's cleavage happens to be one of the very few positive things about one of the supposed landmark (written & directed by Joss) epsodes of the series, than JW should have called it quits after the previous season's ending. JMO, of course.

Does Beth's resentment toward Tara seem natural? I can understand Tara's father's attitude better, and her brother seems to be something of a dimwit, but I don't get the intensity of Beth's resentment toward her cousin.

Amy Adams looks really young in this episode. BtVS was a long time ago.