All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Katy M]

Am I the only one who couldn't even make it through Bloodlines once?  Forget about a rewatch, it only got a quarter of a watch.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Am I the only one who couldn't even make it through Bloodlines once?  Forget about a rewatch, it only got a quarter of a watch.

I've watched Bloodlines 3 times. It's not the worst episode of television ever and it's also not an episode of SPN. It's just not. I mean technically it is. I feel like it should have an asterisk next to it 

*Not really SPN lol

[Aeryn13]

I think Bloodlines was just weird and pretty boring but there are easily 50 episodes I find so much worse. Now Man`s Best Friends, oy. Also not the worst one but in the top twenty.

[ahrtee]

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Bloodlines was just weird and pretty boring but there are easily 50 episodes I find so much worse. Now Man`s Best Friends, oy. Also not the worst one but in the top twenty.

At least in Man's Best Friend and most of the other horrible ones you could turn off the sound and just watch the pretty.  Can't do that with Bloodlines.  :)

[Katy M]

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Bloodlines was just weird and pretty boring but there are easily 50 episodes I find so much worse. Now Man`s Best Friends, oy. Also not the worst one but in the top twenty.

You've almost inspired me to do a top 20 and bottom 20 list, but I'm not sure I could do it.  There are just soo many episodes.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

At least in Man's Best Friend and most of the other horrible ones you could turn off the sound and just watch the pretty.  Can't do that with Bloodlines.  :)

I dunno. The shifter siblings were attractive. They were just annoying as was everyone. I thought Ennis was cute. Ennis really should show up in Wayward Sisters.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

At least in Man's Best Friend and most of the other horrible ones you could turn off the sound and just watch the pretty.  Can't do that with Bloodlines.  :)

It had Nathaniel Buzolic in it who I think is a hottie so on that account it would work for me. :)   However, that might be due to liking the actor from a previous, more interesting role. 

[ahrtee]

OK, I should have put that as "watch *our* pretty."  Not interested in watching characters I don't know (or like) and didn't watch Bloodlines long enough to want to see more... 

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It had Nathaniel Buzolic in it who I think is a hottie so on that account it would work for me. :)   However, that might be due to liking the actor from a previous, more interesting role. 

Was he the shifter brother? He was pretty

[AwesomO4000]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So, full season/series re-watches aside, what is your most re-watched single episode?

If I can only pick one it would be Mystery Spot, but Changing Channels, The French Mistake, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Point of No Return, Fan Fiction, Baby, Just My Imagination (sorry), Safe House, and Slash Fiction are also ones I rewatch most often recently. Hollywood Babylon, Faith, and In My Time of Dying would also count, but since I've seen them so many times already, lately I've more been rewtaching newer season episodes more often.

[DittyDotDot]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Posting about IMTOD in another thread got me wondering if this was my most re-watched episode. I think so. I love this episode beyond reason. For me, it set up so many things to come. Plus I am an unabashed hurt!Dean lover, so there's that. I don't know how many times I've watched it, but it's a lot. Born Under A Bad Sign is another go-to episode, and Dark Side of the Moon. So, full season/series re-watches aside, what is your most re-watched single episode?

I never rewatch just a single episode. If I rewatch, I watch the whole series, in order, don't skip any. So I don't have one I rewatch more than others, but do have many I love and look forward to more than others--like pretty much any S2 episode. But, if I had to pick one episode of the show to take with me somewhere? In My Time of Dying is, IMO, a perfect episode of Supernatural. 

[Myrelle]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:36 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Posting about IMTOD in another thread got me wondering if this was my most re-watched episode. I think so. I love this episode beyond reason. For me, it set up so many things to come. Plus I am an unabashed hurt!Dean lover, so there's that. I don't know how many times I've watched it, but it's a lot. Born Under A Bad Sign is another go-to episode, and Dark Side of the Moon. So, full season/series re-watches aside, what is your most re-watched single episode?

IMTOD. That one and Devil's Trap because I almost always re-watch them together. I'm with you on the HurtDean love, too. It almost rivals my love of BadassDean, and that's because I've never had any actor's pain or death(s) ever affect me to the extent that Dean's has or still does.

[Hanahope]

I didn’t understand why he didn’t just kill them other than plot.  He had to know they’d figure something out.  You don’t live that long as a hunter in America without mad skills.

overall a good season.  Bringing Mary back added a good twist (as much as she was a real downer at times) and the BMOL were very worthy villains.  Some real filler episodes, I would have liked a bit more interaction with the BMOL before the final showdown.

not thrilled with another evil baby story line, and I thought the demon princes were a bit shoe-horned in. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So what happened to Donatello this week?  I know they only hired the actor for one ep, but I’m talking in show.  Was there an explanation for his absence that I missed?  He shows up in Ep2 drawn by the power emanating from Jack.  At one point, he even drops the bag of breakfast burritos (and now I’m hungry, cause breakfast burritos=yum) and leads them to where Asmodeus has taken Jack.  It just seemed odd that he played such a prominent role in E2, then suddenly in Ep 3, Sam, Dean, and Jack are at the bunker with no word of where Donatello went.  Did he peace out because Jack’s afraid to use his power after Asmodeus tried to use him and so he doesn’t feel the waves coming off him any more?  I think it would have been nice to have a line to tie up Donatello’s bit of the plot.  I know, it’s all a convenient plot device, but this way I think it’s even more glaringly obvious that Donatello was just a convenient plot device last ep, which makes the souless bit even more irritating.  And I know it was probably just that someone wanted the actor back, and I like the character, so I’m not complaining about that, but it was just an easy way for the boys to be able to find Jack after Asmodeus took off with him.  In lieu of that, I think it would have been nice to see Sam and Dean do a spell or something to find Jack.  James knew a spell to find Patience, and the boys have the angel tracking table in the bunker, plus Dean knew the spell in Mamma Mia, so I would think one or both would have researched how the table works and been able to apply it to Jack with a couple tweaks.  I’d just like to see more references that the guys actually use the wealth of knowledge that is supposed to be contained at the bunker, rather than just using it as a place to sleep and for the free wi-fi. 

[mertensia]

I imagine Donatello went back home.

[gonzosgirrl]

Brought over from B v J discussion on the removal of his grace as potential 'cure' for Jack.

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Though Cas apparently couldn't get *all* of the grace out without potentially killing Sam.**  I wonder if a smidge of nephilim grace would still keep him at full power? (as in, you can't just be "mostly human"?)

 

**ETA:  with the needle.  He removed the rest of it himself, which brings us back to needing an angel to get the dregs?

This whole grace removal thing is such a good point, and now that @catrox14 has pointed it out, it seems so incredibly obvious I have to wonder if it is where they will eventually go. Maybe it depends on how well the actor & character is received (ie, brings in the much coveted younger demo). Popular= grace removal (or at least most of it so he's powered down to below-God levels) and he becomes a permanent member of TFW. Not popular = darkside and eventual elimination as big bad.

It does also throw into question why Sam hasn't thought of this, having been both the one who endured it, and the perceived brains of the operation. Maybe he has considered it, but wants to use powered up Jack first.

Edited October 29, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Brought over from B v J discussion on the removal of his grace as potential 'cure' for Jack.

This whole grace removal thing is such a good point, and now that @catrox14 has pointed it out, it seems so incredibly obvious I have to wonder if it is where they will eventually go. Maybe it depends on how well the actor & character is received (ie, brings in the much coveted younger demo). Popular= grace removal (or at least most of it so he's powered down to below-God levels) and he becomes a permanent member of TFW. Not popular = darkside and eventual elimination as big bad.

It does also throw into question why Sam hasn't thought of this, having been both the one who endured it, and the erzatz brains of the operation. Maybe he has considered it, but wants to use powered up Jack first.

I think it's a combination of wanting to use Jack to open the rift *and* honoring both Kelly and Cas's wishes about keeping Jack "unique" (surely an odd term in this context?)  Plus Sam still thinks he can be saved, though I believe if he had been given the chance to get rid of his demon blood once and for all once he understood what it meant, he would have jumped at it, and he should be able to explain that to Jack, too--that it would head off all the pain of worrying you're going to go darkside, and potentially making mistakes even with good intentions.  I'm more surprised that *Dean* hasn't been the one to push it (since they can't figure out a way to kill Jack) but he's still stuck on watching for him to go bad, not thinking about ways to prevent it.  

Of course, removing the grace (or at least too early in the game) would wipe out the whole season's arc and lose all the wonderful angst and brotherly battles. //sarcasm//  Maybe at the end of the season/show? (Or maybe Michael can remove it to punish Lucifer?)

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It does also throw into question why Sam hasn't thought of this, having been both the one who endured it, and the erzatz brains of the operation. Maybe he has considered it, but wants to use powered up Jack first.

Sam did think of it in s12 and they wanted to do when Jack was in utero but Kelly nixed it. There is literally no good or bad reason for this option to not have been discussed from the moment Jack was born other than because they want Jack's powers to work so he can open a rift. I mean as stupid as I think it would be I would even accept the answer that "the lore" doesn't allow for grace to be removed from a nephilim, but until they say this on screen, I'm gonna be shouty about this.

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

(Or maybe Michael can remove it to punish Lucifer?)

This would be interesting. Hmm...maybe we'll find out that there is an amazing heretofore unknown Magical Egg of Angel Grace Removal that was in the BMOL lair that Sam can put into the giant telescope to nowhere which actually has a secret panel that lets it look out and it can emit angel grace removing rays to all the angels on earth.

 

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

  I'm more surprised that *Dean* hasn't been the one to push it (since they can't figure out a way to kill Jack) but he's still stuck on watching for him to go bad, not thinking about ways to prevent

Dean can't mention it because it would  make Dean's current Kill Kill status irrelevant. Like they should have brought that up between Dean seeing Jack not be able to harm himself and before Dean had his meltdown in the bunker. I'd find it much more interesting if Dean was faced with the choice and then he'd really have to decide if he wanted Jack dead for safety or because he thinks he's responsible for Cas' death.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam did think of it in s12 and they wanted to do when Jack was in utero but Kelly nixed it. There is literally no good or bad reason for this option to not have been discussed from the moment Jack was born other than because they want Jack's powers to work so he can open a rift. I mean as stupid as I think it would be I would even accept the answer that "the lore" doesn't allow for grace to be removed from a nephilim, but until they say this on screen, I'm gonna be shouty about this.

I know he did - I meant why doesn't he think of it now. Sorry I wasn't clear!

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean can't mention it because it would  make Dean's current Kill Kill status irrelevant. Like they should have brought that up between Dean seeing Jack not be able to harm himself and before Dean had his meltdown in the bunker. I'd find it much more interesting if Dean was faced with the choice and then he'd really have to decide if he wanted Jack dead for safety or because he thinks he's responsible for Cas' death.

Exactly - it poses the dilemma for both. Why does Dean really want him dead, and why does Sam really want to save him.

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Brought over from B v J discussion on the removal of his grace as potential 'cure' for Jack.

This whole grace removal thing is such a good point, and now that @catrox14 has pointed it out, it seems so incredibly obvious I have to wonder if it is where they will eventually go. Maybe it depends on how well the actor & character is received (ie, brings in the much coveted younger demo). Popular= grace removal (or at least most of it so he's powered down to below-God levels) and he becomes a permanent member of TFW. Not popular = darkside and eventual elimination as big bad.

It does also throw into question why Sam hasn't thought of this, having been both the one who endured it, and the perceived brains of the operation. Maybe he has considered it, but wants to use powered up Jack first.

I'm not convinced Sam nor Dean haven't thought of it. Sam  wouldn't bring it up or present it as a viable option yet because he wants to use Jack to open a rift and that's not an option if Jack is depowered. And, Dean didn't seem too convinced of the idea last season so I doubt he would think it a viable option  now either. But as I said in the Bitch/Jerk thread, removing Jack's grace would require Jack's cooperation and I don't think they would get it at this point. I kinda thought that was the point of the tattoo was to show the audience that anything they do at this point would require Jack's cooperation.

I wouldn't be surprised if it gets offered as an option again later and Jack agrees to it, but for...reasons...it doesn't work, though. But, I think something really bad is going to have to happen to get Jack to think he needs to give up his only defense mechanism even if he doesn't have full control over them.

Edited October 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not convinced Sam nor Dean haven't thought of it. Sam  wouldn't bring it up or present it as a viable option yet because he wants to use Jack to open a rift and that's not an option if Jack is depowered. And, Dean didn't seem too convinced of the idea last season so I doubt he would think it a viable option  now either. But as I said in the Bitch/Jerk thread, removing Jack's grace would require Jack's cooperation and I don't think they would get it at this point. I kinda thought that was the point of the tattoo was to show the audience that anything they do at this point would require Jack's cooperation.

I wouldn't be surprised if it gets offered as an option again later and Jack agrees to it, but for...reasons...it doesn't work, though. But, I think something really bad is going to have to happen to get Jack to think he needs to give up his only defense mechanism even if he doesn't have full control over them.

You mean like hurting innocent people? *g*

I keeeed, but only a little. So far Jack has expressed a desire not to hurt anyone, and a fear that he will. Not just a fear, he said he would hurt someone (so, at least a little self aware?). He's already seen that Dean and Sam are basically good people, working to save others, working against evil, etc.  If they told him they could remove his powers and make him human, he wouldn't have any need for this uber-defense mechanism from them. The only downside would be willingly giving up power - something almost nobody has been able to successfully do without extreme intervention or death. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not convinced Sam nor Dean haven't thought of it. Sam  wouldn't bring it up or present it as a viable option yet because he wants to use Jack to open a rift and that's not an option if Jack is depowered. And, Dean didn't seem too convinced of the idea last season so I doubt he would think it a viable option  now either. But as I said in the Bitch/Jerk thread, removing Jack's grace would require Jack's cooperation and I don't think they would get it at this point. I kinda thought that was the point of the tattoo was to show the audience that anything they do at this point would require Jack's cooperation.

But it's lousy writing IMO to not show the option presented on screen again. Show it being discussed between the brothers. Show them ask Jack if he would be willing to do it. If Jack thinks he can't control his powers, then he might very well be willing to try it. Thus far, if it's being played straight, then Jack does not want to go dark side. That he thinks he will be bad. So why wouldn't he take the chance to remove the one thing that is giving him his powers?

I'd actually give props to the show if they have it be that Sam did think of it and opted to not present it to Jack because he wants Jack to open the rift. It would be a huge risk to put Sam in the position of being pretty ruthless about his desire to get that rift open, despite his seeming acceptance of Mary being gone. And it really isn't that out of character for Sam to be that ruthless as we saw in s3 and s10. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But it's lousy writing IMO to not show the option presented on screen again. Show it being discussed between the brothers. Show them ask Jack if he would be willing to do it. If Jack thinks he can't control his powers, then he might very well be willing to try it. Thus far, if it's being played straight, then Jack does not want to go dark side. That he thinks he will be bad. So why wouldn't he take the chance to remove the one thing that is giving him his powers?

I'd actually give props to the show if they have it be that Sam did think of it and opted to not present it to Jack because he wants Jack to open the rift. It would be a huge risk to put Sam in the position of being pretty ruthless about his desire to get that rift open, despite his seeming acceptance of Mary being gone. And it really isn't that out of character for Sam to be that ruthless as we saw in s3 and s10. 

It would be such a good way to go - a moral/ethical dilemma for all three of them! Alas, I think too good for this crew to take on (the writers, not the actors) and present in a way that doesn't throw at least one of the brothers under the bus.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But it's lousy writing IMO to not show the option presented on screen again.

Or, it's smart writing in not having them have a conversation about something neither really sees as a viable option? Personally, I think there should be less pointless dialogue, myself. But, I'm weird that way.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, it's smart writing in not having them have a conversation about something neither really sees as a viable option? Personally, I think there should be less pointless dialogue, myself. But, I'm weird that way.

For me, it makes the brothers look stupid to not discuss the very thing they wanted to do months ago when they are busy angsting about how to deal with Jack.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, it's smart writing in not having them have a conversation about something neither really sees as a viable option? Personally, I think there should be less pointless dialogue, myself. But, I'm weird that way.

My question is why do you say they don't see it as a viable option (aside from them not bringing it up, which IMO is more because TPTB don't want to remind anyone of that option than the boys actively rejecting it)?  As @catrox14 mentioned, they were *both* thought it was a good idea months ago.  Kelli and Cas nixed it then, acting on behalf of Jack.  But Jack is now able to make his own decisions.  The only reason not to bring it up now is because TPTB don't want having any possibilities that Sam and Dean might agree on, so if they *do* eventually bring it up, it'll be when it's too late for one reason or another.  

Edited October 29, 2017 by ahrtee
Changed writers to TPTB because they're supposedly the ones in charge

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

My question is why do you say they don't see it as a viable option (aside from them not bringing it up, which IMO is more because the writers don't want to remind anyone of that option than the boys actively rejecting it)?  As @catrox14 mentioned, they were *both* thought it was a good idea months ago.  Kelli and Cas nixed it then, acting on behalf of Jack.  But Jack is now able to make his own decisions.  The only reason not to bring it up now is because the writers don't want having any possibilities that Sam and Dean might agree on, so if they *do* eventually bring it up, it'll be when it's too late for one reason or another.  

I don't think they BOTH thought it was a good idea, but it was the only idea they had. My impression was that Dean didn't think it would probably work, but figured they might as well give it a try as opposed to doing nothing. But, like I said, they can't do anything without Jack's permission and I highly doubt he would be down for it. So, not a viable option. What would be the point in them discussing it at this juncture? Just so they can say they can't do it?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 But, like I said, they can't do anything without Jack's permission and I highly doubt he would be down for it. 

I think he would jump at the chance. It would be like saying "here is a solution for all your angst, kid". Can`t see him saying "no". 

I know his mother said he was gonna be amazing but what he did took from it overall was "I killed her, moooore angst". So I don`t see that stopping him. Right now the powers scare him, he doesn`t want them and he doesn`t have a real goal for/with them.  

Edited October 29, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, like I said, they can't do anything without Jack's permission and I highly doubt he would be down for it. So, not a viable option.

And as I (and others) have said, I think Jack probably *would* be willing to do it.  We don't know what the boys (or Jack) think about it because *no one has asked *any* of them.*  But we obviously have very different opinions, so AtD.  

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he would jump at the chance. It would be like saying "here is a solution for all your angst, kid". Can`t see him saying "no". 

I disagree. Jack has been mostly acting out of self-preservation so far. I think his own self-preservation instinct would kick in. He's basically a 5-year-old in a teenager body and doesn't have the mental maturity to understand that choice. Maybe later in the season when he's "wiser" and has experienced more? But, right now? No, I don't think he would agree to them sticking a needle in his neck and removing the one thing that gives him some sort of safety. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I disagree. Jack has been mostly acting out of self-preservation so far. I think his own self-preservation instinct would kick in.

I could see instinct kicking in during the procedure - like with the tattoo, though even there he could get himself under control rather quickly - but IMO he would totally agree to try it in the first place.

In terms of his maturity, that is all over the place IMO. He appeared more aware, wiser and coignizant in the womb than he is now. But that seems to be a side effect of the writers trying to pull off the puppy-look. Then he has moments like at the tattoo artist where he says "pain must be endured bla bla", right after freaking out. I know he just mechanically seemed to repeat something he thought was appropriate in the situation but the child they play him for most of the time wouldn`t be capable of that. 

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

46 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My question is why do you say they don't see it as a viable option (aside from them not bringing it up, which IMO is more because the writers don't want to remind anyone of that option than the boys actively rejecting it)?  As @catrox14 mentioned, they were *both* thought it was a good idea months ago.  Kelli and Cas nixed it then, acting on behalf of Jack.  But Jack is now able to make his own decisions.  The only reason not to bring it up now is because the writers don't want having any possibilities that Sam and Dean might agree on, so if they *do* eventually bring it up, it'll be when it's too late for one reason or another.  

I don't think they BOTH thought it was a good idea, but it was the only idea they had. My impression was that Dean didn't think it would probably work, but figured they might as well give it a try as opposed to doing nothing.

 

Dean was excited when they hit on possible solution. He hurried to Cas' room. Hell, he practically ran to Cas' room

Quote

Sam: But, but the extraction ritual worked.

Dean: So?

Sam: So what if Cass used it on Kelly's kid? I mean, a-a Nephilim's just a human soul with angelic grace, right? So you remove the grace –

Dean: Kid's just a kid.

Sam: Kid's just a kid. That way, Kelly wouldn't have to die, and – and neither would her baby.

Dean: Hot damn.

Sam: Hot damn. I mean, we still obviously have to find Kelly in the first place. And, it's just a theory, but –

Dean: No, no, no. No. That's – This is it. This is it, Sam.

Sam: (Chuckles)

Dean: I'll get Cass.

(Dean knocks on Castiel's door)

Dean: Cass? Yo, Cass? (Switch clicks, door thuds – Castiel is gone

Edited October 29, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

removing the one thing that gives him some sort of safety. 

Actually, it's the one thing that's making him a target.  Without it, he'd still be alive and functioning, just not a "threat" (or potential weapon) to humans, angels or demons.

[DittyDotDot]

58 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I could see instinct kicking in during the procedure - like with the tattoo, though even there he could get himself under control rather quickly - but IMO he would totally agree to try it in the first place.

It's like asking a sick 5-year-old if he would want medicine to make him better. Of course he would agree until the needle came out.

But, my point was that Jack has no understanding of what it means to have powers or not have powers. All he knows is that his powers scare him. But, I would also imagine not having those powers would also be scary to him. Not to mention, the only two people he actually knows right now are Sam and Dean and they seem pretty miserable without any powers, so I'm not sure what about that is supposed to be appealing to Jack.

I could see a scenario where Jack might agree simply to please both Sam and Dean, but I don't think he has the mental maturity to even understand what that choice means and when it came down to actually removing his grace, I think his base instincts would kick in. 

43 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, it's the one thing that's making him a target.  Without it, he'd still be alive and functioning, just not a "threat" (or potential weapon) to humans, angels or demons.

Jack is a target with or without his powers, but without them, he has no way to protect himself. I just don't think he would see giving up his only defense was a good offense given that he seems to have the mental maturity of a 5-year-old right now.  It would be like trying to convince a bear to willingly let someone remove it's teeth and claws so so it wouldn't be dangerous to humans anymore. I'm not sure the bear would see the logic in giving up its only defenses. Especially considering that just because the bear isn't dangerous to humans, that doesn't mean humans are not dangerous to the bear.

Edited October 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's like asking a sick 5-year-old if he would want medicine to make him better. Of course he would agree until the needle came out.

This is where i part company with the portrayal of Jack. I think he knows more and understands more than he is saying.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's like asking a sick 5-year-old if he would want medicine to make him better. Of course he would agree until the needle came out.

But, my point was that Jack has no understanding of what it means to have powers or not have powers. All he knows is that his powers scare him. But, I would also imagine not having those powers would also be scary to him. Not to mention, the only two people he actually knows right now are Sam and Dean and they seem pretty miserable without any powers, so I'm not sure what about that is supposed to be appealing to Jack.

I could see a scenario where Jack might agree simply to please both Sam and Dean, but I don't think he has the mental maturity to even understand what that choice means and when it came down to actually removing his grace, I think his base instincts would kick in. 

Jack is a target with or without his powers, but without them, he has no way to protect himself. I just don't think he would see giving up his only defense was a good offense given that he seems to have the mental maturity of a 5-year-old right now.  It would be like trying to convince a bear to willingly let someone remove it's teeth and claws so so it wouldn't be dangerous to humans anymore. I'm not sure the bear would see the logic in giving up its only defenses. Especially considering that just because the bear isn't dangerous to humans, that doesn't mean humans are not dangerous to the bear.

I said Agree to Disagree an hour ago.  That still remains my answer.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I said Agree to Disagree an hour ago.  That still remains my answer.

Sorry, you quoted me when I was responding to someone else, so I thought you were wanting to continue dialogue. 

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is where i part company with the portrayal of Jack. I think he knows more and understands more than he is saying.

I was telling someone the other day that it could be an interesting twist that Jack is just trying to size the boys up and actually knows more than he says. They've been playing it very straight so far so I'm not sure that is the case, but anything is possible?

[ahrtee]

Brought over from the BvJ thread, because it's not intended to be anything against either Winchester (or bitter about anything, for that matter).

12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As I alluded to previously in this thread, I don't trust any of the current writers' "neat little bows." It looked to me that Dean lying about Gadreel and Gadreel being a bad guy was all wrapped up in a neat little bow also, but by the end of the season Gadreel was a good guy who was misunderstood and maybe Sam should've known he was possessing him and that Gadreel was dangerous.

...

And there was Gadreel, too... until the narrative changed that is.

 

I do have to say that it annoys me when people claim that Gadreel was whitewashed and/or his character retconned into a good guy (whether or not it was intended to make Sam "wrong," which I absolutely disagree with.)  

The fact is that we knew nothing about Gadreel in the beginning, except that he'd lied about being Ezekial.  Cas vouched for Zeke, which is why Dean trusted him.  We knew nothing about either's backstory.

We gradually recognized that he was hiding something, and figured that he was hiding out in Sam for some reason.  But we didn't know *why* he was hiding, and it didn't necessarily have to be for something bad.  There were all the different factions of angels fighting; and even Cas was hiding out from all  angels.  It didn't prove he was evil or even dangerous.   The only "bad thing" he had done at that point was lie to Dean about his real name.  I suspect that it was true that he needed to heal Sam "from the inside," but was delaying the healing to stay on longer, because it was a safe hiding place.    

But even when Dean started to suspect Zeke was lying and kept asking when he would leave, Gadreel didn't actually hurt anyone.  I'm not denying that lying and hijacking Sam's body was bad, but in that same time he saved Sam's life at least three times (including healing him of the trial sickness) and brought both Cas and Charlie back to life after they'd been killed.  He did have to save Sam if he wanted to stay in him, but there was no need for him to save Cas or Charlie, *especially* since he considered Cas a danger to him.  He could have just told Dean that it was too late to save them, and there was nothing he could do.  I think that shows he was basically good underneath.   So until Metatron corrupted him, he hadn't done anything to show he was dangerous.

It was Metatron who exposed Gadreel's lies.   But his story as we learned it then was exactly what you're calling the retcon--that he felt misunderstood and only wanted redemption; *and Metatron offered it to him,*  with the added carrot of becoming a hero for restoring Heaven.  All he had to do was this one little thing to prove his loyalty.  For a being who had been locked up since Adam and Eve, it probably seemed like a golden opportunity.  From that point it was the "slippery slope" of going along with someone telling him to do bad things in the hopes of something good for all angels coming out of it.  That's being naive and wanting redemption, not evil.  That's Sam believing Ruby and doing bad things in the hope of saving the world.     

We saw him gradually questioning his orders and feeling guilty until he finally decided that the price was too high, and he'd been duped.  That's when he came to the Winchesters to confess and offer to help, to atone for what he had done.  Again, not that different from Sam in season 5.  And, like Sam in Swan Song, he got the big final act of redemption, which by that time fit the story.  

So...I would understand if Sam had identified with him and wanted to give him a chance at redemption, (though they didn't play it that way, because Sam was  justifiably angry about everything that he'd just learned).   I can also understand Dean feeling betrayed and guilty and *not* wanting to forgive.  IMO, everything that all three did was completely in character for them, and not a retcon, unfairly blaming or whitewashing anyone.  The only part I felt was off was Sam blaming Dean for trying to kill Gadreel, and calling him a "real friend."  I don't think this is a character problem for Sam so much as bad writing.  It would have made sense if they had shown that Sam had been rethinking Gadreel's actions and come to understand him--or had even just decided that they needed Gadreel to get to Metatron, so they should work with him.   But even without that, it doesn't make Sam stupid, or wrong, for forgiving Gadreel.  There's nothing anywhere in the story that even hints that Sam should have known Gadreel was possessing him, or that *either* Sam or Dean should have known he was dangerous until...he was.   

YMMV. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just wanted to say, @ahrtee, that is the best summation of the Gadreel arc I've read. Kudos!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 10/29/2017 at 6:05 AM, mertensia said:

I imagine Donatello went back home.

Probably.  Or to Boca or wherever he was planning to retire.  :)  Like I said, I just thought it would have been nice to get one line of confirmation of that since he was so important to the plot last ep. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I do have to say that it annoys me when people claim that Gadreel was whitewashed and/or his character retconned into a good guy (whether or not it was intended to make Sam "wrong," which I absolutely disagree with.) 

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 But his story as we learned it then was exactly what you're calling the retcon--that he felt misunderstood and only wanted redemption; *and Metatron offered it to him,*  with the added carrot of becoming a hero for restoring Heaven. All he had to do was this one little thing to prove his loyalty. 

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

There's nothing anywhere in the story that even hints that Sam should have known Gadreel was possessing him,

I took this over to the Bitch vs Jerk thread just in case... basically short version: I mostly agree with your assessments. My main complaints are 1) that  Sam and Castiel conversation I quoted over in the B vs J thread that I thought muddied the waters and 2) that the stuff brought up in the beginning of the season and the big blow out in "The Purge" was pretty much a red herring and / or was later dropped.

I agree with you that Gadreel's story made sense as a redemption story, but that didn't mean that I wanted a redemption story - and especially not one that quickly - or that I wanted the rest of the issues swept under the rug.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I took this over to the Bitch vs Jerk thread just in case... basically short version: I mostly agree with your assessments. My main complaints are 1) that  Sam and Castiel conversation I quoted over in the B vs J thread that I thought muddied the waters and 2) that the stuff brought up in the beginning of the season and the big blow out in "The Purge" was pretty much a red herring and / or was later dropped.

I agree with you that Gadreel's story made sense as a redemption story, but that didn't mean that I wanted a redemption story - and especially not one that quickly - or that I wanted the rest of the issues swept under the rug.

I'm just saying that he wasn't all bad, so there was reason for sympathy and it wasn't a complete out-of-the-blue retcon.  IMO the Sam and Castiel conversation was designed to *make* it clearer to others who might think it was out of the blue, so that we could hear outright that even Sam felt that he wasn't evil (or dangerous).  I don't see that (or anything else in the Gadreel arc, actually) as being against Sam or showing him as anything other than the victim who was willing to forgive.  Is that bad?

And while I understand that you and others may not want Gadreel to be sympathetic (much less to forgive him for Kevin);  IMO that's what makes more interesting characters.  Otherwise, the bad guys might just as well wear black hats and twirl their mustaches.   The fact is that Gadreel *did* do bad things--though I would rate killing his own best friend as worse than Kevin, who was likeable but still a relative stranger--but he was conflicted and, in his own way, as "new" to the world as Jack, and just as unclear on human feelings and "rules".  (In fact, I believe he first learned about human emotions from being in Sam's mind; so if you want to put a positive spin on it, it was *Sam* who made him understand the choice of being good or evil and who made him feel guilty enough to want redemption, as opposed to merely vindication.  Maybe it was Sam's memories of Ruby that made Gadreel recognize Metatron's evil!)  

But I don't think the rest of the issues were "swept under the rug" because of Gadreel or anything to do with him--IMO it was more that the MoC and Abaddon took precedence.  That happens a lot--both in the show and in RL.  We know that Sam's anger at Dean was still there, because it showed up in King of the Damned and Stairway to Heaven, but he opted to deal with the immediate concern of a rampaging Dean (who he *didn't* want to die, no matter how angry he might be) instead of holding onto a righteous anger that would just get in the way of what needed to be done at the time.  

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

But I don't think the rest of the issues were "swept under the rug" because of Gadreel or anything to do with him--IMO it was more that the MoC and Abaddon took precedence.  That happens a lot--both in the show and in RL.  We know that Sam's anger at Dean was still there, because it showed up in King of the Damned and Stairway to Heaven, but he opted to deal with the immediate concern of a rampaging Dean (who he *didn't* want to die, no matter how angry he might be) instead of holding onto a righteous anger that would just get in the way of what needed to be done at the time. 

Oh sure, bring logic in to refute my righteous rant. ; ) But seriously, I get that, but I guess it just annoys me that this was done for Sam's season 9 story, and then when Sam did put his anger on the back burner to deal with the crisis at hand and help with the mark of Cain and Dean, somehow he still messed everything up and the fallout was his fault.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

(In fact, I believe he first learned about human emotions from being in Sam's mind; so if you want to put a positive spin on it, it was *Sam* who made him understand the choice of being good or evil and who made him feel guilty enough to want redemption, as opposed to merely vindication.  Maybe it was Sam's memories of Ruby that made Gadreel recognize Metatron's evil!)  

Wouldn't it have been nice if the show had implied something like this rather than just go to Sam is a hypocrite and then causes an apocalypse?

(I'm not going to forgive the writers for that horrid "The Purge" speech or for the "real friend" Gadreel thing. In my opinion, it muddied up a storyline that had potential, but they couldn't commit to it.)

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh sure, bring logic in to refute my righteous rant. ; ) But seriously, I get that, but I guess it just annoys me that this was done for Sam's season 9 story, and then when Sam did put his anger on the back burner to deal with the crisis at hand and help with the mark of Cain and Dean, somehow he still messed everything up and the fallout was his fault.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the show had implied something like this rather than just go to Sam is a hypocrite and then causes an apocalypse?

(I'm not going to forgive the writers for that horrid "The Purge" speech or for the "real friend" Gadreel thing. In my opinion, it muddied up a storyline that had potential, but they couldn't commit to it.)

Yeah, well, we can agree to disagree that Sam "always" messes up (and especially that TPTB set him up for it), because I honestly don't see how he messed anything up in that SL (though I *did* hate his Purge speech).  But I don't think he did anything wrong till *not* burning the Book of the Damned, which was well into season 10; and I don't understand why you think everyone is saying "Sam is a hypocrite and then causes an apocalypse"?  (OK, maybe a "hypocrite" for saving Dean when he said he wouldn't, but really, did anyone really expect him *not* to? : )  Just like everyone expects  Dean to do something stupid to save Sam. )  (There was a line I read in a review long ago about Appointment in Samarra, when Dean admitted to Death (grudgingly) that he hadn't lasted the 24 hours to win the bet.  The reviewer said something like, "Dean, honey, *no one* expected you to last the full time.  Microbes at the bottom of the Marianas Trench knew you wouldn't do it.")  

 But it seems to me that you're taking a few widely scattered issues over various years and putting them all together as if one leads directly to another.  Sam had a lot of wins between The Purge and Book of the Damned (I think we discussed some of them in another thread) and IMO skipping over them and focusing only on the negatives not only does a disservice to the character but also to the rest of us, who either get angry also, or feel the need to explain their opposing view (see, I'm doing it right now!) :) 

TBH, I  haven't forgiven the writers for "The Purge" speech either.  The "real friend" Gadreel I just ignore as an incredibly stupid line.  You can't say the writers haven't had more than their share in the past (and will again, I'm sure.)  It still annoys me when I'm reminded of it, but not enough to keep me angry almost 4 years later.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm never sure where things like this should go, but since it could involve any season and episode spoilers, I'm trying it. @catrox14's post in one of the Season's threads got me thinking about my all-time favourite gag reel moment. It's Dean *trying* to talk to Sam about Cas in S7. The switch back and forth (and back and forth and back and forth) from Dean to Jensen, and his utter helplessness by the end just cracks me up, every time. What's yours?

(this should cue up at the right spot, but just in case, it starts at 2:40)

[Katy M]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:54 PM, ahrtee said:

I'm just saying that he wasn't all bad, so there was reason for sympathy and it wasn't a complete out-of-the-blue retcon.  IMO the Sam and Castiel conversation was designed to *make* it clearer to others who might think it was out of the blue, so that we could hear outright that even Sam felt that he wasn't evil (or dangerous).  I don't see that (or anything else in the Gadreel arc, actually) as being against Sam or showing him as anything other than the victim who was willing to forgive.  Is that bad?

As soon as he started murdering people because someone else told him to, I lost any sympathy for him I may have had.  Kevin had never done anything to him.  And, the angel that he killed was his best friend.  Who kills their best friend because somebody else tells them to? And, the motivation we were given for that was so that he could be Metatron's second in command.  So, yeah, I'm calling that "bad."

[catrox14]

I think Gadreel was bad. I think Gadreel was sketchy and duplicitous and he murdered. I also think he sought redemption for his transgressions by blowing himself up. IMO what made Gadreel sympathetic was Tahmoh's performance. He showed that Gadreel was scared of Metatron, regretted his choices and wanted to do one right thing before he died.

I've always read that "real friend" scene as being a bit overwritten. IMO it was not intended to show that Sam was "wrong" about Gadreel but to juxtapose it with Dean allying with Crowley and to show that was WAY OFF the rails and to show that Gadreel was more of a friend than Crowley. I never thought it was intended to be Sam admitting he was wrong about Gadreel or that he really saw Gadreel as a "real friend" but more a trustworthy ally than Crowley who lead Dean into that dark place in the first place. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I also think he sought redemption for his transgressions by blowing himself up.

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't even think that.  We saw in Metafiction, that Gadreel's biggest fear was being imprisoned again.  He was in prison.  I think he mainly blew himself up to get out of prison.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't even think that.  We saw in Metafiction, that Gadreel's biggest fear was being imprisoned again.  He was in prison.  I think he mainly blew himself up to get out of prison.

I don't think that was his main motivation. He started to realize that he was on the wrong side with Metatron after he met with Castiel and started to see things differently. That's why he went to the bunker to offer his help. I think he didn't know any other way to help now that he was imprisoned.  He may have been afraid to be in jail forever and he could have just slit his own throat, let his grace dissipate and then let his vessel die. But he didn't do that. He blew himself up to free Castiel so Castiel could continue the fight. So even if he didn't want to be trapped in prison again, he made sure Castiel did get out.